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*confused*
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Sunrise
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The end is really near now?
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LeeHarvey
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Pretty easy, dont advertise a URL in game that links to things that cant legally be sold. Why is that so hard to grasp. While WRR does great things for the community they still dont have the right to authorize Real life cash purchases. Jeremy mentioning them doesnt cross some kind of imaginary line, she doesnt get in game and mention their URL.
WRR needed to be a little more responsible with the event, they obviously stay informed on game events. Why cant they stay informed on the rules of the game, this isnt a new rule. This rule has been around since I've been playing, Im glad to see they are starting to enforce the rules.
Like it or not, the reason we have scripters and dupers is because they have an easy market to sell their ill gotten gains. Dont give me the crap about the fair players that choose to sell something they didnt own to begin with. You pay for server time and that is all, even though customer service could be 100 times better, you dont have the right to sell the pixels.
I get to play this game about 2-3 hrs a week sometimes, why should somebody that doesnt play honestly be able to fork over real life cash to buy something that they didnt earn. Maybe I should be able to buy some extra touchdowns for my brothers kids on friday night, after all they did miss some practice time while they were studying; its only a game right?
WRR needed to be a little more responsible with the event, they obviously stay informed on game events. Why cant they stay informed on the rules of the game, this isnt a new rule. This rule has been around since I've been playing, Im glad to see they are starting to enforce the rules.
Like it or not, the reason we have scripters and dupers is because they have an easy market to sell their ill gotten gains. Dont give me the crap about the fair players that choose to sell something they didnt own to begin with. You pay for server time and that is all, even though customer service could be 100 times better, you dont have the right to sell the pixels.
I get to play this game about 2-3 hrs a week sometimes, why should somebody that doesnt play honestly be able to fork over real life cash to buy something that they didnt earn. Maybe I should be able to buy some extra touchdowns for my brothers kids on friday night, after all they did miss some practice time while they were studying; its only a game right?
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Pojman5
Guest
LOL - You must really think your something else. What are you talking about? Go make yourself useful instead of blabbing about technicalities.That mabey the knowlage of banning for urls has been in place for some time now(long before last week certainly).
That the resposiblity lies with the gamer and mabey, your fans might respect you for how you handle yourselfs as responsible gamers concerned for " the community.. ??? just saying...
not even close....please don't confuse a policy change on these forums with any action by GM's...really
that's a way bit of a stretch
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OxAO
Guest
Actually, I thought myself a fan untill recently and that WWR Might have something usefull to say.
It would have been a good day to see your group pick up a good fight for responsible gaming even if the infraction was within" your group".
Guess I was just day dreaming at work again.
Best wishes:]
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Pojman5
Guest
Yup... Dreaming... I just dont care much about what you have to say.
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D'Amavir
Guest
That mabey the knowlage of banning for urls has been in place for some time now(long before last week certainly).
That the resposiblity lies with the gamer and mabey, your fans might respect you for how you handle yourselfs as responsible gamers concerned for " the community.. ??? just saying...
The knowledge of women not allowed to vote was known for quite a long time too. And don't get me started on those water fountains. Just because its an established rule makes it a good or even decent rule? I think not.
Too many websites have been running for too many years that clearly sell items for real money to think that EA really wants to have that practice stopped. I would imagine that a few of them are actually behind some of those sites. But giving out a URL in game that the main voice between the game runners and the players gives out just about every week on her FoF updates on the main Herald page is something they should be banned for? Just because its a rule (and a rule that only seems to be enforced when some *word deleted to prevent all out mod assault* pages a gm on someone they have a dislike for) doesn't make it right.
Most of us see script farmers day in and day out that are paged on but still seem to be back day after day doing the thing that really impacts the game's economy. Is saying the name of a url that EA mentions regularly on the Herald really worse than gold farming? Really?
The rules that were posted were very vague, If we have broken rules we will do what is needed to fix the situation, If we have not then that will be dealt with also. WRR is about the community and enhancing that community. We do not get paid for our time spent at town halls or on air, we do it for the love of the game. As I said if we broke rules we will fix it and strive to not break them again. We all love UO and want to keep doing good for the community of UO.
TorAnn, Sr Program Manager
TorAnn, Sr Program Manager
Picking up a bad url in game going to site, getting account hacked....
Not to mention the trash all over at any populated site in game, spammers? In this case the " rule is a good one". Thats just me...
Great post, very mature and professional! If only everyone on U.Hall posted like this, we would have a lot less to talk about.
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If it was a bad URL then why in the world is it being given out by EA? Like oh on almost every single Five on Friday....granted that doesn't apply to every situation but in the one I originally posted about it does.
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LeeHarvey
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Great post, thank you for all that you do.
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D'Amavir
Guest
Are you saying that EA gave out a URL for a site that hacks accounts? Wow, I didn't know that part. Then definitely, the white rose should be shut down immediately. Good thing we have people like you that are so dedicated to helping the community by giving us that information.
Not to mention that EA encourages this bad behavior by allowing players to add links to their guild page on MyUO. The nerve of EA for aiding in the hacking of accounts that way.
best wishes in sorting this all out.
I think this URL Bussiness is getting more annoying and stupid by the day... Either EA needs to train it's staff to recognize a BAD website... Or they just need to hang it up... This is getting way out of hand..... if you can' advertise stuff then by all means BAN the GM's cause there are ADS all over EA's web pages..... this is getting to be just ridiculous... Does anyone with half a brain work there anymore????? I mean seriously.... Most of my UO life they don't even BAN folk for saying some really nasty stuff..... they don't ban folk for being a SCAMMER and cheat but they ban folk who provide in-game entertainment????????
I'm sorry but this is a further demonstration of what I've been saying for the last 2 years..... EA games is trying DESPERATELY to DESTROY UO..... They WANT UO to fail....... They WANT everyone to Quit..... they WANT us to get mad and leave the game..... because they WANT to let UO go..... But they can't because UO keeps running a profit and they can't justify pulling the plug until it starts getting closer to the RED...... So anyway possible they can find to Seriously Tork off all the players they will use it.... that's my honest opinion.... They do this by ruining the game with all kinds of silly junk.... Doing surveys of what we want..... litterally destroying every fun thing in the game and then taking the results of the survey and then making like they are really going to do something good only to make it into something of a disaster.... on and on this goes as they drive more and more people out of the game.... Eventually we will reach a point where the profit takes a nose dive and the game goes into the Red.... and then it's all done.
I'm sorry but this is a further demonstration of what I've been saying for the last 2 years..... EA games is trying DESPERATELY to DESTROY UO..... They WANT UO to fail....... They WANT everyone to Quit..... they WANT us to get mad and leave the game..... because they WANT to let UO go..... But they can't because UO keeps running a profit and they can't justify pulling the plug until it starts getting closer to the RED...... So anyway possible they can find to Seriously Tork off all the players they will use it.... that's my honest opinion.... They do this by ruining the game with all kinds of silly junk.... Doing surveys of what we want..... litterally destroying every fun thing in the game and then taking the results of the survey and then making like they are really going to do something good only to make it into something of a disaster.... on and on this goes as they drive more and more people out of the game.... Eventually we will reach a point where the profit takes a nose dive and the game goes into the Red.... and then it's all done.
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D'Amavir
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And I said that EA gives out the same URL that people were suspended for mentioning. I also said that EA allows players to put URL's on their MyUO guild pages.
If I stood at the Luna bank and told someone word for word what was in the FoF this week, I would be banned. That makes sense to you? No one is saying that announcing url's that end up being hack sites is a good thing. But some thought needs to go into enforcing rules that even EA breaks. Its not about favoritism, its about common sense. I don't even listen to the rose so I don't have a personal stake in their survival at all. But, as a whole, UO benefits from people like them and to stomp on them just because of something like this does nothing except undermine the already fragile community that is the UO playerbase.
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RoycroftLS
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You are implying that because EA mentions a website in the FoF, it should be on a "whitelist" of allowable sites to mention in game.
The problem with having a whitelist of sites that could be mentioned in game is that you need someone vigilant to keep watch over the list. A couple examples why:
What if someone builds a reputable site just as a guise to get on the whitelist and then turns it into a site that now violates the rules of conduct?
What if one of the reputable sites has substandard security and gets hacked?
Even with a whitelist, you could have people buying up domains that are common typos of those sites on the whitelist, and making those sites malicious. Then how do you sort out the unlawful from someone who doesn't type very well?
The rule as it is written is quick and easy to enforce, doesn't require many judgement calls, and helps protect the player base. Isn't that the way it should be?
I have to shake my head when I see this sort of thing. It's funny how easily people get jealous when someone makes a name for themselves. You just have to tear them down to make yourself feel better.
I don't know anyone at WRR personally. What I did see, however, were passionate UO players, spending their own money to follow the Dev Team around to their Town Halls. I saw them donating their own rewards in the raffles, setting up the network, and broadcasting the the whole thing so all UO players can share in it. These aren't paid EA employees doing all these, these are UO players doing it all for the sake of community. In my view, they're pretty generous.
Now here's you GarthGrey, trying to tear them down. In my view, you're not looking so hot.
They don't get paid?
Don't they accept payment for ads that run on their website?
It is always nice to think that people do things for free out of the goodness of their hearts, but it is rarely true.
The gold seller on pac who is/was selling 564 pieces of samurai armor made with 38 duped val runic hammers recently began wearing the WRR tag. He told me that he is a 'smalltime' gold seller and that WRR is a 'bigtime' gold seller...(he told me this before I mentioned him and his 564 pieces of armor here in UHall, he doesn't talk to me anymore
).WRR is just 2-3 people, maybe 4 now counting samurai armor seller, who are attempting to make their real life living off of UO (not counting the volunteer DJs who do NOT get paid for their work).
If you were a gold seller or desired to make money off of UO it makes sense that you'd go to town hall meetups and get chummy with the devs, good business sense.
Personally I've not heard the first good thing about WRR or any of it's members ingame or out of game, I've only heard negative things or things that make me uneasy enough that I have NEVER gone to their website and never plan to (not people I want to share my IP with thanks), and I have never been happy with Jeremy seeming to rubber stamp her approval of their activities in her FOFs.
I am very glad to hear that brokers/gold sellers and those who attend meetups are not 'special' ingame and immune to the rules.
Guess it's time to rename the those 5 Luna city houses you own on Pacific WRR.
I think EA's staff is just horrible. From Dev's down to GM's. Customer service is horrid, we don't get enough feedback from dev's (FoF is ********), GM's might as well be bots run in a chinese sweat shop.
I know H1B's that can program 10x better and work for 50% less.
I know H1B's that can program 10x better and work for 50% less.
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xempathy
Guest
Gotta say. I applaud this. They said there would be no URLs in game. They're working on it. The dupers that advertise through that radio station did NOT get their ads through. I think the radio station can't be too positive if it's advertising dupers and going against the TOS.
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AdamD
Guest
They don't get paid
They DO get GOLD for the ads they run on their site, which they use in all their competitions.
They spend their own RL$ on hosting, license fees and the radio stream.
Not to mention lugging all their equipment to the town halls and getting it all setup. (So travel costs, equipment costs etc)
As for the subject at hand, I to, wasn't surprised to hear about WRR staff being suspended either.
When I read the thread about UOguide not being allowed, my first thought was "WRR is going to be next", because you just know someone or some people, went to their event JUST to page on them
The same is going to be repeated with many sites no doubt, as people go out of their way to find people with url's in their profiles.
It's a sad state of affairs and I believe the only option now for WRR, is to get revenue (gold/cash) via other means
Thank you for coming in and clarifying this point!not even close....please don't confuse a policy change on these forums with any action by GM's...really
that's a way bit of a stretch
*kisses toes*
It's hard not being able to say everything one wants to when reading through these posts. A few things from the voice of reason in my own lil head:
*If we were to to say WRR, or uoguide, stratics or uoforums ect. withOUT the dot com at the end we are not linking in game right? No url site, no harm no foul. I think thats a pretty fair assumption people in game can make on their own yes? Pretty straight forward and simple.
If not? Someone come to our LS meet up in Skara Brae next as I always say the events announced will be posted as news on Stratics and UOforums. I never say the url but I always say the game site. Or if I am taking community screen pics of an event I tell everyone to look for their name in lights in the community news post on stratics.
*I am not on the brink of mass hysteria as long as I obey the rules. Problem is some feel it is up to interpretation and that is hard to not do when we are only told not to bring the world into UO. Eh? I am IN the world myself and bringing myself INTO UO. How can I not bring it with me? Color me cornfuzzled. Gaming sites are a part of that world, it enhances my enjoyment of UO.
*It was not long ago that in game urls were and still are a way to hack players. It was not addressed FOREVER but now it has been and is being enforced. It should be! You have to protect the players and you cannot do so unless you enforce that rule that may have been lax prior to it becoming a big issue. Now the pendulum has swung far the other way.
*A possible solution: Bring back APPROVED fan sites. Let the community know that certain sites have been approved to be helpful and community building w/out being known hackers and without banners and ads linking to gold for cash or other various no-nos that make Mythic frown. If you want to be able to be mentioned url wise, meet their standards. Approved and nuff said.
disclaimer: This is me speaking as Airmid not for Stratics. ZigZag feel free to pull my post if I've stated my opinion too much on this.
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Mordocuo
Guest
This is coming from the man that posts he bought alot of runic tools at cheap prices--not really caring if they were dupped or not--and made tons of armor for his vendor.
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=95957
Sorry but knowing your a DJ with WWR and pull stuff like above leads me to think poorly of WWR.
But that is my opinion. Others posted their opinions of your actions with the runic tools and you basically told them to take a hike. Yet you want us to believe your about community in you association with WWR. It also speaks volumes to me how WWR looks at community and having you part of their organization.
If you are not part of WWR I apologize to them, if you are then what I said above says it all.
Yup...And everytime someone gets in trouble, they run off and mention WRR and how they are an "exception to the rule."
I can tell you exactly what happened. Either someone who got banned for saying a URL or someone who read about someone getting banned for it went to the event and waited for them to mention the website. They then paged a GM and reported them for it.
Do i agree with it? Absolutely not! WRR is one of the last great things left in this game and they provide fun for ALOT of players. Personally, the events they ran kept me going for a while when i was ready to quit a long time ago.
I hope WRR continues to run events and finds a way around this stupidity. Punishing people helping the game in the name of a stupid rule is just going to push this game closer to the end.
"They don't get paid
They DO get GOLD for the ads they run on their site..."
According to what their newest guildie Pojman told me, they are a huge seller of UO gold for cash...(he was attempting to explain to me that in comparison to them, he was smalltime gold seller, he didn't wear a WRR tag when he told me this but he does now).
Doesn't that explain why UO gold is an acceptable form of payment to them?
Because to them it's the same as cash.
I do wonder how you are privvy to all WRR's financial information...
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DJWhisperingDeath
Guest
i think it is crazy to even make a non URL rule to where ya can get baned because everyone uses them. I seen tons upon tons of people use them even still and no action is taken until the DND last night. I is the most idiotic rule i have ever heard of. If there just gonna start baning people for no reason they shooed do it on the dupes and scripts out there. I mean come on when ya page on a person for scripting or using speed hacks ya just get the blue dot of death and the person is still playing right in front of you just as they was before. It kinda stupid in my mind to the people like that run around freely. I mean how hard is it to do the same thing that other games has done to keep people form using hacks and such. Lets give Diablo 2 a thinking hear for anyone who has played it before knows when ya go on the server that's for the legit chars ya cant do a dang thing extra to there and if ya are it will boot ya and stuff why cant thay input that into UO hard code its all easy and they don't have to worry about this stuff coming up or happening. The hole thing of selling items in UO i don't see a problem in selling the stuff tho either I mean ya wonder ever be able to stop it no one ever will or any thing so why ban it from the game because they are gonna keep on doing it it is plain and simple.
They could stop selling things for cash or running ads for people who sell things for cash on their website couldn't they?
That's great for folks who run websites out of the goodness of their heart. Eventually though, costs pile up, and the money has to come from somewhere to keep the site running if it sees any traffic at all.
The consumer completely misses the reality sometimes.
Do we imagine that Stratics would be here were it not for ad revenue? Of course not -- it would have been gone many years ago. The very fact that you are reading this message is proof that making money off of a website is essential in this world.
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AdamD
Guest
As far as I know, they don't sell gold themselves
As far as being "privvy" to their financial information, all I did was send Sandman an ICQ last night and he said.
Maybe if more people pitched a fit about ridiculous stuff like these suspensions for mentioning there is a difference between mentioning a website like Stratics and mentioning something that promotes cheats, and sales.... but banning folk for helping and providing service and entertainment in game and mentioning their RADIO broadcast that promotes the game is just STUPID... WE need more people promoting UO ...... and we don't need to hassle folk who do promote UO... This is getting WAY out of hand... It's getting so stupid I can't stand it...
UO/EA reps....... GET some GM's who haven't just fallen of the truck... crawled out from under a rock and know the difference between a helpful website and a hurtful one.... Or fix your policy so it's not so completely screwed up that we can't do anything...... AS you may as well quit having guild websites advertised on our Guild rosters because I can guarentee that my guild can't afford ad free websites.... OR STart giving us our own websites.... ones that ARE OK to use... that you police.... cause this is getting downright stupid, irritating and just plain agrevating.... how are we supposed to get folk to join our guild..... learn about things going on in game.... Help anyone.... Or play???
You know what..... just forget it..... make the freaking game a one player solo game and forget that it's supposed to be a MMORPG!
UO/EA reps....... GET some GM's who haven't just fallen of the truck... crawled out from under a rock and know the difference between a helpful website and a hurtful one.... Or fix your policy so it's not so completely screwed up that we can't do anything...... AS you may as well quit having guild websites advertised on our Guild rosters because I can guarentee that my guild can't afford ad free websites.... OR STart giving us our own websites.... ones that ARE OK to use... that you police.... cause this is getting downright stupid, irritating and just plain agrevating.... how are we supposed to get folk to join our guild..... learn about things going on in game.... Help anyone.... Or play???
You know what..... just forget it..... make the freaking game a one player solo game and forget that it's supposed to be a MMORPG!
Something interesting about this. Apparently it is the same GM that suspended me last week. Could it simply be an issue with this GM? I don't know because I haven't gotten a response to my GM review in 7 days now.
No I think its karma personally that urls that are supported and existing soley because of the scripts ran to operate it are finaly being acted on. I do think its petty the backlash bye those that got banned to go out and pursue vendetas though.
I'm not against banner ads, even those advertising another game. I am saying if Mythic does not want url's that sell gold for cash in game and you are a fansite who wants to be known in game, then dont have banner ads for uo gold for sale to be an approved fansite. It seems very simple to me.
I understand the costs involved in running a fansite and am extremely appreciative. I have stated before, I would much rather know what you need for operating costs and send you a check or buy a UO or fansite t-shirt than do something Mythic frowns upon. Some clarity in what exactly creates that frown or happy face for Mythic would be beneficial about now. *grins*
They don't 'sell things for cash' and their advertising policies aren't ours to determine - and certainly I'm not meaning to come across as rude but if one disagrees with their current ads...email 'em, please?
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I know for a small website for my guild I'm paying out $60 a year not counting purchasing similar Domain Names so people can't abuse it....which is about $40 more a year...This is a small site we don't have a huge bandwidth requirement. A site like UO Forums, WRR, or this site easily could be in the $100+ range a month, or in the case of Stratics as a whole over $500 a month just for hosting not counting additional charges for Domains, and if they have someone contracted to maintain them or not, programmers for the site and other expenses. I only get out for $100 a year because I maintain everything myself.
yep. and there are indeed economical ways to solve this - banners, e.g. I get the intense impression that there are peeps out there that are really pi**ed off by the success/deployment/achievements of others, and work really hard to make them look ugly. Some kind of primitive joy; I felt it in the discussion of the bannings, in the threads aiming at JC, and now again. Seems like a lot uo peeps take their little egos to these boards to question anybody and anything who/that gets known for doing something extraordinary in uo.
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Seems like a lot uo peeps take their little egos to these boards to question anybody and anything who/that gets known for doing something extraordinary in uo.
That's an attitude that worries me with the project I'm involved in below... and to my knowledge there are no ad banners or any plans for them for the time being (guess it depends on Illandril's willingness to pay for the bandwidth and how it grows).
What I can say is that to my knowledge we have oversight on what we are doing as I have sent emails to Jeremy on it and gotten the reply that she'd let us know if we ventured outside of acceptable realms in regards to what we accomplish with the project.
Still it'd be nice to be able to inform people ingame that may be using KR of the site as it would only help the site and the advancement of KR as a client to have more people know about it.
But sadly enough, any mention would probably have the griefers slamming on the "report another player" button.
Seems like a lot uo peeps take their little egos to these boards to question anybody and anything who/that gets known for doing something extraordinary in uo.
That's an attitude that worries me with the project I'm involved in below... and to my knowledge there are no ad banners or any plans for them for the time being (guess it depends on Illandril's willingness to pay for the bandwidth and how it grows).
What I can say is that to my knowledge we have oversight on what we are doing as I have sent emails to Jeremy on it and gotten the reply that she'd let us know if we ventured outside of acceptable realms in regards to what we accomplish with the project.
Still it'd be nice to be able to inform people ingame that may be using KR of the site as it would only help the site and the advancement of KR as a client to have more people know about it.
But sadly enough, any mention would probably have the griefers slamming on the "report another player" button.
Maybe I misunderstood because I thought we were discussing whether or not EA has the right to determine the advertising policies of ANY websites advertised in their game Ultima Online?
It was my understanding that some WRR employees were suspended for 24 hours due to their advertising the WRR url and that the reason that the WRR website is deemed unacceptable by the suspending GM was because the site sells things for cash or has ads for people who sell things for cash on it which is a violation of EA's rules.
My post was in reference to WRR being able to continue their activities ingame and once again share the WRR url with UO players:
If their website no longer contained the offending material that the suspending GM deemed unacceptable, then there is no reason that they could not share the url safely ingame.
Personally I could care less what WRR advertises on their website as I value my UO accounts too much to go there, but I don't think it's too much to expect that everyone within the game Ultima Online should be able to follow the rules of the game.
had not read the FoF that mentioned the account suspension so I dug it up to have a read…
First it is saying that you can not “advertise anything” in game or mention the URL of a site that “advertises something“. One of the definitions of the word “advertise” is “tell others about: to make something known to others”. Now, every conversation in UO and every web site “makes something known to others”. Therefore, every UO conversation could be considered a violation of the ROC.
Next it states that you can not promote anything/something. A definition of “promote” is “support or encourage: to encourage the growth and development of something”. Sounds like you better not help out that newbie you just met because encouraging that person’s growth and development as a UO player could get you a suspension.
Finally we come to my personal favorite; web sites that “market” something. If EA is suspending accounts for mentioning a web site that “market something’ then I would be suspended for telling a new player that tokens and account upgrades could be purchased at uogamecodes.com which is EA‘s own web site.
Way to go EA...
This is a very poorly written rule of conduct and a completely misguided interpretation if taken literally and to its illogical extreme.
First it is saying that you can not “advertise anything” in game or mention the URL of a site that “advertises something“. One of the definitions of the word “advertise” is “tell others about: to make something known to others”. Now, every conversation in UO and every web site “makes something known to others”. Therefore, every UO conversation could be considered a violation of the ROC.
Next it states that you can not promote anything/something. A definition of “promote” is “support or encourage: to encourage the growth and development of something”. Sounds like you better not help out that newbie you just met because encouraging that person’s growth and development as a UO player could get you a suspension.
Finally we come to my personal favorite; web sites that “market” something. If EA is suspending accounts for mentioning a web site that “market something’ then I would be suspended for telling a new player that tokens and account upgrades could be purchased at uogamecodes.com which is EA‘s own web site.
Way to go EA...
First off this statement is not " the written rule" Its quite clear that its a warning.had not read the FoF that mentioned the account suspension so I dug it up to have a read…
This is a very poorly written rule of conduct and a completely misguided interpretation if taken literally and to its illogical extreme.
First it is saying that you can not “advertise anything” in game or mention the URL of a site that “advertises something“. One of the definitions of the word “advertise” is “tell others about: to make something known to others”. Now, every conversation in UO and every web site “makes something known to others”. Therefore, every UO conversation could be considered a violation of the ROC.
Next it states that you can not promote anything/something. A definition of “promote” is “support or encourage: to encourage the growth and development of something”. Sounds like you better not help out that newbie you just met because encouraging that person’s growth and development as a UO player could get you a suspension.
Finally we come to my personal favorite; web sites that “market” something. If EA is suspending accounts for mentioning a web site that “market something’ then I would be suspended for telling a new player that tokens and account upgrades could be purchased at uogamecodes.com which is EA‘s own web site.
Way to go EA...
Second, Its quite clear that they dont want players advertising their sites(In game) that have anything to do with gold sellers.
You can put a rat in a pink dress and its still just a rat.
And the Dr. is back!!!
Yep that's exactly it. Look at the company they keep. Dupers, scripters and definately people who support these illegal activities.
Anyone who thinks WWR is a group of people who are running their "company" at a loss are delusional.
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