A Single player can put both Curse and Corpse on a target. With just 100 Tactics and anatomy 100 Di a crossbow hits harder than an AI. Not factoring concussion or evil omen.
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Sure tell me skills required to do all this.
No I'm asking you, tell me.
Last I checked you have to be focused to accomplish this.
But you're telling me you can have Magery necro and Melee.
So do tell, how is this done?
Maybe, if you would go back and read/watch what other players have already said/posted in the thread's about corpseskin, you would understand.
You were literally posting around the time these were said
So that character has Melee skills too?
Still nothing?
Kind of hard to reason with someone who blatantly ignores videos and people claiming it can be done with 1 player.
Let me break it down really simple.
It takes 120 necro 120 spirit speak Real skill to Corpse.
Only have to be human to curse with a scroll. YES you can apple, but being able to apple doesn't change the fact that while both debuffs are on it can increase the damage dealt by 83% BEFORE evil omen. Nothing else in the game can increase a players damage by this much. You could have bard buffs, cast enemy of one, and have the target be cursed and not increase your damage by that much.
For a crossbow to hit harder than an armor ignore against a double Debuffed Character only takes 150 strength (Easy), 100 Tactics, 100 Anatomy. 67-82 Base damage applied to 45 Fire/poison. Doing 36-45 Damage Base hits. + Hit spells can hit for more than 60 damage without using any mana. Toss Concussion into the mix and you could theoretically two shot a player. Not even factoring evil omen, pain spike, conflags (Which deal 83% more damage), and supernova which deal 83% More damage
Human
120 Weapon (Doesn't have to be real)
120 Necro
120 Spirit Speak
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
Even without Anatomy the base hits are 31-38
This is UO, i'll let your imagination fill in the rest of some possible Templates.
Let me break it down really simple.
It takes 120 necro 120 spirit speak Real skill to Corpse.
Only have to be human to curse with a scroll. YES you can apple, but being able to apple doesn't change the fact that while both debuffs are on it can increase the damage dealt by 83% BEFORE evil omen. Nothing else in the game can increase a players damage by this much. You could have bard buffs, cast enemy of one, and have the target be cursed and not increase your damage by that much.
For a crossbow to hit harder than an armor ignore against a double Debuffed Character only takes 150 strength (Easy), 100 Tactics, 100 Anatomy. 67-82 Base damage applied to 45 Fire/poison. Doing 36-45 Damage Base hits. + Hit spells can hit for more than 60 damage without using any mana. Toss Concussion into the mix and you could theoretically two shot a player. Not even factoring evil omen, pain spike, conflags (Which deal 83% more damage), and supernova which deal 83% More damage
Human
120 Weapon (Doesn't have to be real)
120 Necro
120 Spirit Speak
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
Even without Anatomy the base hits are 31-38
This is UO, i'll let your imagination fill in the rest of some possible Templates.
The character is mine bud, not his.
Human...
Fencing
Tactics
Resisting spells
Necromancy
Healing
Anatomy
Spiritspeak
but you know what, it doesn't matter if it can be done by a single player or not... that's not what makes it balanced. I'll answer it with another question though.
If you think Archery was bad before with Curse + moving shot, how bad do you think it's going to be when people abuse that? It's not rocket science, It's UO.
I know it is, he was speaking for your character so i was asking him.
It does matter if it can.
What are the skill points for that char specifically and why are you using 55 mana in the video?
Hmm, sort of not wanting to give away my specific template... but I'll do it for you, even though it doesn't change anything.
120 Fencing
120 tactics
120 anatomy
120 Resist
100 Spiritspeak
60 Necromancy
90 Healing
I don't need 90-150 mana to play effectively, I use what I need, not what I can get... ~60 mana is more than enough for my play-style.
An effective build, most players would go 60 Necromancy before this change because it gave them access to Evil Omen, Corpse Skin, Bload oath, Pain Spike. Its not a stretch to lower anatomy/tactics or to get skill increase on the suit itself to hit 120/120 necro/ss
Using scrolls I'm guessing?
But to land a special or two and then what?
I'm not sure the mechanics here represent it being over powered or cause for not stacking it.
If anything they need to nerf the ability to use scrolls to accomplish curse and corpse.
Or fix necromancy requirement for being focused.
Actually, I haven't pvp'd since I found out Curse & corpse stack... but yes, I did use scrolls in the video, and I don't need Curse to kill people in 2-3 hits. Curse + Corpse (as opposed to just Corpse) would just make the fight shorter.
Yeah it's effective, but it's not because of the skills used, it's effect because of how well everything is in synergy with it.
How many scrolls it take t land a successful curse on average?
It used to be about what, 33%?
It only took one in the video, I didn't test the failure rate, but again it's not the fact that a single person can cast it that makes it overpowered anyway.
the failure rate would be ~50% as a human with a scroll.
Not sure I completely buy the logic on this one. For, say, an EM event boss? Yeah, it'll make a difference, because you want to get as much damage in as quickly as possible for a chance at a drop. But you can already get looting rights, even at 1.75 second swings. For your average (non-boss) mob, half a second isn't gonna mean much. Ultimately, I just don't feel the need to go with a high-end pvp-oriented suit for pvm. Does it work? Yeah, no question. But you can just as easily pvm with imbued/reforged armor.IIn regards to no one pvming in 210/60 ssi, that comment made me
Yeah, I figured this.
Again a caveate to the mechanics.
Also again, it's easily removable.
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Folks - this thread was created by one of the developers to get some feed back. I know we're on page 4 of the discussion here, but try to keep it on topic.
I implore you: please keep it civil, put your personal issues aside, and avoid taking side-swipes and potshots at one another. I really don't want to be forced to play bad cop and have to do thread clean up, issue infractions, or any of that jazz.
Thank you and keep the good discussion going.
I implore you: please keep it civil, put your personal issues aside, and avoid taking side-swipes and potshots at one another. I really don't want to be forced to play bad cop and have to do thread clean up, issue infractions, or any of that jazz.
Thank you and keep the good discussion going.
Yes, as we showed on page one.
It only takes two specials to kill someone at that point. With evil omen and factoring the increased damage to hit Fireball, two concussions could hit for upwards of 180 damage. You could probably get off a concussion, swap, Para Shot, swap, Concussion and kill a player even after a heal pot. Or para shot, move close and try for two concussions.
God Forbid a melee toon with a 100% Fire/poison splinter weapon with an orc brute.
Or a fencing player with 120 tactics/anatomy doing frenzied whirlwinds with a lajatang for 34-41 Base Damage + Hit spell + Delayed damage from frenzied whirlwind with an orc Brute. If the orc Brute hit lands on both swings + Painspike/conflag/Supernova could kill a player.
It literally allows base hits to surpass armor ignore without even having to hit 120 tactics/anatomy. It increases the damage of attacks by more than any other combo in the game.
A bard with 480 Real skill invested only increases damage by 15% in pvp for all party members
Can't remember the exact number for enemy of one in pvp, but its short lived and not much even at 120 + High karma.
Curse increases damage from elemental attacks by 33%
Evil Omen can increase the damage of the next attack by 25%
Corpse Skin on its Own can increase damage by 50% for fire and poison attacks.
Just corpse skin on its own increases damage more than anything else in the game. Allowing it to STACK with the second best increase in damage?
I haven't seen anything in the thread to take offense to.
It's okay for us to disagree on points.
A caveat to what mechanics? Stacking the two Curse & Corpse is a Massive bonus for me bud, most people wouldn't argue to get it fixed if they benefited from it.
It's easily removable.. what do you mean by that?... because people can apple it off every 30 seconds? (this is a trap, don't answer it)
There are other things that could be changed far less devastating than stacking the two debuffs, because they're "Easily Removable".
This is beyond ridiculous that people even try to keep the stacking of Curse & Corpse skin alive...
The mechanics that the failure rate is high, though if I recall 50% success is a generous rate for successful scrolls.
And at the curse lasts 25 seconds.
Yes you can Apple at a minimum, a
Chiv template would instantly remove. Not sure if a healing stone does or not..
So there are other things that could be, but we are not discussing those. We are discussing corpse skin and curse stacking.
There isn't anything wrong with it.
Ok, I was hoping you would try to justify it with a 50% failure rate, it only takes 1.25s to cast curse.... (I run 2/3 casting normally in the video I only had 1/3 because I didn't have my town bonus.
Sure, anyone can apple it with a 30second cooldown, not a problem, nor would it have an impact on me using scrolls or just corpse skin or both... (I don't "need" curse anyway) but anyway...
a Chivalry template can remove almost instantly. yes valid point but you know what, if they're removing curse, they're not healing themselves OR dealing damage to me... =X
Like I said there's a certain genius in the template I use that works wonders against the 2-3 templates that exist right now. but I'm not going to get into specifics because I want you to ask for it.
As far as discussing Curse & Corpse skin stacking, I'm pretty sure between this thread and the thread dedicated specifically to it (here), there is ample feedback to balance it the way described by many, just in this quote below is enough (IMO) to have it fixed. That's why I'm focusing on other issues, and not specifically that one...
Actually I was justifying a 33% failure rate. So while you're eating a couple seconds to get curse to go off you're probably getting hit be a dexer, let alone a mage who wouldn't let that go through anyways.Ok, I was hoping you would try to justify it with a 50% failure rate, it only takes 1.25s to cast curse.... (I run 2/3 casting normally in the video I only had 1/3 because I didn't have my town bonus.
Sure, anyone can apple it with a 30second cooldown, not a problem, nor would it have an impact on me using scrolls or just corpse skin or both... (I don't "need" curse anyway) but anyway...
a Chivalry template can remove almost instantly. yes valid point but you know what, if they're removing curse, they're not healing themselves OR dealing damage to me... =X
Like I said there's a certain genius in the template I use that works wonders against the 2-3 templates that exist right now. but I'm not going to get into specifics because I want you to ask for it.
As far as discussing Curse & Corpse skin stacking, I'm pretty sure between this thread and the thread dedicated specifically to it (here), there is ample feedback to balance it the way described by many, just in this quote below is enough (IMO) to have it fixed. That's why I'm focusing on other issues, and not specifically that one...
As far as chiv yep they may not be healing themselves (which is silly because that's almost instant too) they're sitting there removing curse if you're trying to spam curse from scrolls.
I agree that there should be more templates, but not made by nerfing prior mention templates, but by buffing others.
Really one could easily create a spreadsheet to look at the damage balance for certain skills or templates but it's pretty dry and time consuming to do so.
It's a 50% failure rate. but, sure.
a Mage wouldn't let that go off hmm? so they wouldn't let my corpse skin go off either eh?
But you know, what's the difference between a mage letting another mage get curse off? There is no difference, you need to make sense bud, without it, you are fighting the steepest uphill battle imaginable.
Chivalry remove Curse + Close wounds is longer than a single curse+weapon hit.
Anything else you have to that hopefully makes even a little sense to throw at us?
how about this, i tested your template.
even used two chars and gave the extra 10 anatomy you couldnt fit on your template by what you stated.
even with 100% fire kryss and evil omen, max damage for that template was 42.
@Bleak
I dont want to Troll here but the handfull of "PvP" Guys going After each other do Not Sound to me like a proper amount to represent the PvP community.
Maybe some Kind of Send clear Suggestions via Mail to then collect the matching ideas and let validaded PvP Guys try it for some weeks on TC before ruining the game
Also find PvM Guys to Check if PvM is still working fine.
I dont want to Troll here but the handfull of "PvP" Guys going After each other do Not Sound to me like a proper amount to represent the PvP community.
Maybe some Kind of Send clear Suggestions via Mail to then collect the matching ideas and let validaded PvP Guys try it for some weeks on TC before ruining the game
Also find PvM Guys to Check if PvM is still working fine.
Get rid of EP.
Put running shot the way it was in the past.
Timers on refresh pots.
Put the champ spawns back to normal.
Bring in Punkbusters......and start getting rid of the dudes that ruin the game.
Put running shot the way it was in the past.
Timers on refresh pots.
Put the champ spawns back to normal.
Bring in Punkbusters......and start getting rid of the dudes that ruin the game.
I have tested the template of pure necro/ss fencer with running 29.9 mage/eval with curse scrolls and it never fails to cast and doesn't break the focus spec. I have do well over 100 dmg in one hit with omen conc. Its a very easily made template and with 45 fire poison its devastating. I think 55 in each is a good spot and not stack them. If I run a orc brute with my template I can easily one hit people and that doesn't include nova pots or conflags.
EP should not be stackable, hard cap it, alchemy is a crafting skill not a pvp skill.
EP should not be stackable, hard cap it, alchemy is a crafting skill not a pvp skill.
Yea bud, that's because you're using Armor ignore. Use an auto attack with almost any weapon and it'll do the same damage.
Everyone is obsessed with AI and it's like literally the worst special in the game for pvp. Unless you have a hard time reaching high damage increase.
Edit, the template was with skill modification via items. I don't use antique items, if I did I'd have a ton more than just +10 skill increase.
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I think the devs overlooked something with the curse scroll. To lower resist you should need over 30 eval real skill. It should just lower stats by a few points if cast by scroll. I believe mass curse works in this manner- or used to not drop resists. Haven't cast it in quite some time.
Sorry man,I did and the AI did more.
The regular hit was 22.
This was also at 50 resist.
You've gotta be missing something, or you limit all your testing to the same weapon (a Kryss). just because the majority use it, doesn't mean it's the most effective.
Nah I know but I using your char temp as an example.
I tried it several with evil omen 22, 23, 25, 27
with a kryss that sounds pretty accurate to me. What point are you trying to make, that it's "Ok" to keep them stack-able?
Yeah, last few times took 3-4 times to even get the curse to go off.
It was 50% success the first couple times.
So you could probably do it with higher damage weapons for about 70 but the time it takes to do the combo with one person isn't really feasible.
If anything scrolls just need nerfed.
Then we are back to the 1 vs 2 + argument requiring a couple people to Perform this (though this seems like the only case you can do both and isn't an average template).
If you spent that much time in pvp trying to do what I was doing on test you either face plant or spend a lot of time running.
No Mage is going to let you try to spam a curse several times then corpseskin unless you run off screen to precast.
Ok, but you realize by making Curse & Corpse stack, regardless of how many players it takes to achieve that, it just adds more incentive to use the Parry skill, which is already amazing.
Honestly, I can't believe people are even trying to keep the stacking of the two.
It doesn't really open up any template options, Necromancy is still Better with Archery (same as it was before Focus spec) Magery is still better with parry (that's a shocker isn't it?).
What's going to open up by allowing this to stack?
Changes like Curse + Corpse make Pvp more difficult for solo or small groups, zergs will have an even easier time killing the people they already outnumber? is this for real?
Meh, so many little things wrong with the game what's one more?
There isn't a mage in UO that this will apply to, if it were the case, there wouldn't be a need for any other templates. no off-screening necessary
Hey, I'm going to pull this card....
Curse scrolls have been the same since the beginning of UO. Devs Overlooked the 69.9 4/6-2/6 casting drop for Chivalry too eh?
I know it wasn't a big deal until holyfist came out though. no one complained about it because holyfist was capped at 35. so sure 69.9 magery is a 75% success-rate without scrolls btw.
The only thing they overlooked wasn't an accident, they said they discussed whether or not the two should be able to stack, as quoted below.
I'm telling you, leave "group" pvp to the players getting better at playing the game instead of giving it to them.
It's the same principle I use with Casting focus, Poison immunity etc, you guys (devs) invested the time and resources to implement the Arena for pvpers, but then you add things that make a random difference, is like giving us something then taking away what made it great in the first place.
You really think they're going to drop parry by nerfing this?
Did I say that? No, they're making more people choose parry by keeping it stacked.
Why? because Parry is the only form of defense that isn't reduced because of resistances
It's the same benefit it already had.
I'm not sure why you're basing a premise on it. I'm pretty sure there are very few people who added parry as a direct result of stacking. Especially when the two are easily countered.
It's like ordering a beer and saying and you get the bottle!
As far as the second part, dropping resists doesn't affect other forms of defense either. Damage only.
So if you actually get hit by this, the damage will be equivalent with or without parry.
I'm not saying this is why people picked up parry, but it IS something that's going to support them sticking with parry instead of changing. that's it. it's not really bad because of that though. (not entirely at least).It's the same benefit it already had, so why change it?
The two are easily countered? Everything is easily countered if you know what to do, but lets get to the opposition. -
If they're easily countered why are people complaining about Archers? let me guess, Ranged weapons are harder to counter, you know how much better archers are with these two debuffs stacking, than they are with only Curse? Fix it.
You're right, the damage would be equivalent with or without parry, I wasn't arguing that, the the best way to survive this template other than avoiding to fight it, is to hope for the best with your defensive RNG, what better way to do that than increase your RNG chances of it by adding Parry (as if you didn't already have it lol) over other options.
I'm going to assume you haven't fought this template yet. I know you have though, because I've fought you with it on GL, I didn't know who you were at the time, just found out a week or so ago... not that it matters much, but it does explain to me why you disagree with any parry adjustments though. you're in the very small minority that uses parry a way most people wouldn't, which is actually the way I would use it, but like I said, parry doesn't give me what I need, so I don't use it. It's not a balance issue for me though.
What's funny about my suggested parry adjustment is I'm not arguing to nerf parry based on how effective it is vs dexers or how well it works against other templates. never have... I personally don't play with parry. literally my Parry-mage is by far my LEAST played character.
As far as the balances between Curse (which is fine) vs Corpse & the imbalance when both are combined, it's a bad idea, and I knew that before I even tested it. as a matter of fact I can tell you who else in this thread (that I know of) knows it too. (besides my guild or alliance members)
I'm telling you, it just promotes more of the same play we have, with very similar templates (essentially no change).
It's important you don't force people to change their templates if you look at UO's patch history specifically publish 47 (that SOB!) you'll see that's what happened... you want their current setup to remain viable, but also open up more options to change because they want to explore those options.
By reverting the tactics change alone opens up more options, but will they be "viable" options in todays pvp? I can think of some I could use... but that doesn't mean other people would consider them "viable"... but then again, people claim focus necro isn't viable, or wouldn't be viable if stacking the two debuffs didn't exist, and they're full of ****. because I play it effectively (if I say so myself) and it works very well. before Corpse reduced resistance caps.... now it's that much better.
Hell, Bleak even popped up next to me while I was testing the Corpse Skin update on TC1 while it was there, I hadn't discovered the two debuffs stacking though (as I've said it one of my many posts), otherwise, I assure you, I would have brought it up a long time ago.
You're jumping around the argument. At this point we are not discussing ranged weapons or my parry Mage.
I disagree with you about it even if it doesn't affect my template, because the math, as I've shown, doesn't justify it.
You probably have fought Odessey, I'm guessing, but I'm not sure who you are I guess.
I would be willing to consider tactics change but for Odesseys template you're going to give him 80 or
So extra points? I'm not sure how that's a legitimate point but ok, I'll take them if they nerf tactics.
Let's discuss this more later, been busy lately to devote much testing to support these ideas.
Have a good one.
It's not about the math that either one of us posted that supports or debunks the imbalance with parry that I'm talking about anyway.
It has nothing to do with balancing parry with the rest of the game but balancing with itself across a variety of templates with it. Everything with parry sacrifices more than parry+westling and parry+anatomy, that's it. nothing to do with anything else. the only argument that can be made against it, is that the other options a 1 handed weapon + a shield & two-handed weapons are not viable (anything that cannot chug potions is not viable...) it's not completely true, but that's how most of the players express it. but, just the idea of the others not being viable is a problem because it is for the most part true, and that is caused by imbalances that have nothing to do with what my suggestion is meant to fix.
I was referring to the Parry adjustment, it wouldn't be skill points you'd get back it would be stat points you'd get back. (if you sacrifice any to begin with). but sure, we can leave that alone for now.
The characters you'd be most likely to know me as on GL would be, R-N-Jesus & Eviscerator. Games too ez. =D
So here are some thoughts about the discussion thus far.
- Archery feels like it has the biggest impact on the meta at the moment due to its range, damage output, and moving shot. I'm personally against reducing base weapon damage as that would have a negative impact on the community but I'm just one voice of the team. I feel that tweaks to moving shot should be on the table as well other counters to the template such as tweaks to disarmed ranged weapons. I would also like to know more on your thoughts about hard capping ranged weapon swing speed at 1.5.
- Adding more skills into the Focused Spec restriction sounds like a solid idea.
- When it comes to the parry skill it is my opinion that it should be left alone. There have been several changes to the meta which has made parry a more optimal strategy for mages. Do you feel that removing over capped DCI has removed some of the variety in mage templates and why? The elephant in the room is the effects of global loot on combat when it comes to parry. In particular, I would like to know how you feel about their effect on base stats(str,dex,int)?
- As for Corpse Skin + Curse, what are your thoughts on reducing the duration of curse based on magic resistance?
- There are some bug fixes for throwing pots coming down the line.
@Bleak
Lowering The cap on ranged weapon speed is no different to me than lowering the base damage. Your essentially dropping the total dps possible by 20%
No, the duration of curses is countered by the ability to remove them with apples and won't have any effect on them stacking. Once both curses are applied, death will be swift.
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