Classic Shard #2

[Derium of ls]

Personally the only kind of "deed" in reference to crafting services that I could support on a classic shard is the Commodity deed. Makes it much easier to conveniently sell large amounts of resources to crafters.

I agree with that, and we had a pretty long talk about getting rid of repair deeds because it was such a massive blow to community... aka, smithy shops!

 

[Derium of ls]

What is he saying? I know he's trying to say something but I just don't understand it! Let me get my calculator out. God I hate all those percentages and stuff on every piece of gear we have now.

Honestly I'd be happy with any shard as long as it didn't have the Age of Shadows system of items on it.

I kind of feel depressed today because of nostalgia. I stumbled across a fragment of an old website devoted to the Crusaders of Britannia. Only 3 pages of the old site, but it had a list of members at the time, as well as some history and other things. It saddens me to see the names of people that I named friend who have gone to other games, or just dropped off the face of the earth. I wonder if they would still be in the game if it wasn't for the changes that EA/Orgin made to this game.

I saved those webpages...to bad our screen shots where no longer there.

same here with the any pre-AOS, I'd be happy as long as those damn item stats were gone.

And I use to have hundreds of UO screenshots, but lost them all in a failed hard drive =( I tried so hard to recover them, no luck =/

 

[Evlar]

Same here Derium. I used to keep loads of screenshots, but assorted house moves, changes of country and changes of PC's over the years... don't have them any more.

I did upload some to a few early file/image hosts, but even they're gone now

 

[popeto]

Two questions based on the sticky (http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=190295)

1) What exactly is wrong with bods and runics, if you can just make vanq/invul + gm moddifier weapons/armor? Take out the ability to reset BODs (to prevent scripters), and you have a nice system... imo.

2) What about Champ Spawns that don't drop PS's? Is that what the "Ilshenar potential" is about? Why not just have Ilshenar (with Fel ruleset) in from the get go? It would be a nice end game to shoot for, paragons and all. Fighting a Para Balron with 700 skill cap (while watching your back for raiders) would be a great experience, imo.

-Edit-

Also for reference...

BECAUSE THIS WOULD NOT BE A CLASSIC SHARD AND WE CANT CATER TO EVERY CAREBEAR WHO WANTS TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT HE/SHE THINKS IS OK.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

BECAUSE THIS WOULD NOT BE A CLASSIC SHARD AND WE CANT CATER TO EVERY CAREBEAR WHO WANTS TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT HE/SHE THINKS IS OK.

So what you're saying is all the great systems that came out after Publish 5 (UO:R) should just be thrown away? If you did that there would be no:

• Player Stuck Option for when you get stranded on a desert island (Pub 6)
• Make Last/Smelt/Repair gumps in crafting pane (Pub 6)
• Tamers actually being able to loot pet kills (Pub 7)
• The Faction System (Pub 8)
• T2A Travel changes (recall/gate in...Ride Llama outside of T2A(Pub 9)
• Veteran Rewards (Pub 12)
• Commodity Deeds and Secure Housing Transfers (Pub 13.5)

I could go on, but these are all the systems that stand out to me that came in before Age of Shadows. I think a lot of people would consider these good things to have on a classic shard.

 

[eekamouse]

BECAUSE THIS WOULD NOT BE A CLASSIC SHARD AND WE CANT CATER TO EVERY CAREBEAR WHO WANTS TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT HE/SHE THINKS IS OK.

Carebear?

Here's "Carebear" for ya. Um .... Mods!??! /whine He's name calling.

Have fun with that.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

So what you're saying is all the great systems that came out after Publish 5 (UO:R) should just be thrown away? If you did that there would be no:

• Player Stuck Option for when you get stranded on a desert island (Pub 6)
• Make Last/Smelt/Repair gumps in crafting pane (Pub 6)
• Tamers actually being able to loot pet kills (Pub 7)
• The Faction System (Pub 8)
• T2A Travel changes (recall/gate in...Ride Llama outside of T2A(Pub 9)
• Veteran Rewards (Pub 12)
• Commodity Deeds and Secure Housing Transfers (Pub 13.5)

I could go on, but these are all the systems that stand out to me that came in before Age of Shadows. I think a lot of people would consider these good things to have on a classic shard.

This is a very, very, valid point that most purists should consider. There are many things that were changed, added, fixed, that didn't break the game the way Trammel and AoS did.

As far as I am concerned, I would be perfectly happy if we have an exact copy of the current game, but it didn't have any content (items, creatures, skills, land masses, etc) from anything post-T2A.

The little mechanics and specific nuansces are not what broke the game...it was Trammel and AoS (the removal of open PVP and the addition of item-based gameplay to be more specific.

 

[Derium of ls]

This is a very, very, valid point that most purists should consider. There are many things that were changed, added, fixed, that didn't break the game the way Trammel and AoS did.

As far as I am concerned, I would be perfectly happy if we have an exact copy of the current game, but it didn't have any content (items, creatures, skills, land masses, etc) from anything post-T2A.

The little mechanics and specific nuansces are not what broke the game...it was Trammel and AoS (the removal of open PVP and the addition of item-based gameplay to be more specific.

exactly my thought too.

 

[eekamouse]

The little mechanics and specific nuansces are not what broke the game...it was Trammel and AoS (the removal of open PVP and the addition of item-based gameplay to be more specific.

This is exactly the point.

 

[Evlar]

This is a very, very, valid point that most purists should consider. There are many things that were changed, added, fixed, that didn't break the game the way Trammel and AoS did.

As far as I am concerned, I would be perfectly happy if we have an exact copy of the current game, but it didn't have any content (items, creatures, skills, land masses, etc) from anything post-T2A.

The little mechanics and specific nuansces are not what broke the game...it was Trammel and AoS (the removal of open PVP and the addition of item-based gameplay to be more specific.

Ditto that.

 

[Fin of LS]

This is all very interesting, but I think many of you were
A. Never there when we dealt with a pure UO or
B. Have selective memories.

Now maybe my memory is not what it once was but I think that in order to understand a "Classic" shard you have to look at what killed it-=-what forced the changes to UO.
So what was a classic shard:
1. No Trammel
2. Open PvP outside guard zones
3. 100% looting
4. All skills like stealing fully operational outside a guard zone.
5. Limited housing ( because cash was extremely limited)
6. Almost forced grouping which caused the emmergence of very strong guilds because you flat needed it to survive.(it was not solo friendly except for the skilled PK-they loved it)
7. Slow skill gain, GM's were rare, multiple GM's almost unheard of for the first 6 months (until the things that killed UO it showed up, which were aroiund from the beginning but it took 6 months for most of the killer issues to be general knowledge)
Feel free to add to this list.

In short, a Classic shard was damn hard to play and damn hard to be any kind of success--thats a classic shard.

What killed it:
1. Duping--gold became virtually unlimited to a select few but those that did this soon ruined the economy and were placing castles when the rest of us could barely afford a small house for a guild headquarters. Duping, in many cases, involved crashing the shard--and that just drove the rest of us nuts.
2. 3rd party programs such as unattended macroing which once again allowed a few (maybe many) an unfair advantage
3. No penalties for PK ing, or any aggressive action directed against another player. We learned that the most heavily treasure laden MOB in the game was--your fellow player and it was easy and penalty free. Just kill the miners, and sell their product-the greatest challenge was timing it so they were full when you nailed them--as an example.
4. No accountablity for actions, you could EV an entire room and not take a count.
5. A Seer system and in some cases GM's who were corrupt and favored a select few ( Once this was out, and in many cases proven or substantiated enough to convince the player base it was happening it resulted in almost total lack of faith in the developers. This was one of the greatest losses of faith between customer and Developer in the history of MMO's-we still feel its effects today)
And feel free to add to this list.

So, the challenge here is to pick those things that made a Classic shard great, challenging, fun, frustrating, magical and eliminate the possibilty of those things that ruined it ever happening again. I suspect that is what the Dev's are looking at and I very much doubt we will all be happy with the end result--but it sounds like it will be a hell of alot of fun whatever it is.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

This is all very interesting, but I think many of you were
A. Never there when we dealt with a pure UO or
B. Have selective memories.

Now maybe my memory is not what it once was but I think that in order to understand a "Classic" shard you have to look at what killed it-=-what forced the changes to UO.
So what was a classic shard:
1. No Trammel
2. Open PvP outside guard zones
3. 100% looting
4. All skills like stealing fully operational outside a guard zone.
5. Limited housing ( because cash was extremely limited)
6. Almost forced grouping which caused the emmergence of very strong guilds because you flat needed it to survive.(it was not solo friendly except for the skilled PK-they loved it)
7. Slow skill gain, GM's were rare, multiple GM's almost unheard of for the first 6 months (until the things that killed UO it showed up, which were aroiund from the beginning but it took 6 months for most of the killer issues to be general knowledge)
Feel free to add to this list.

I agree with pretty much all of that, except the part about slow skill gain. How far back are you going? By the time T2A came around, I was a 7x GM on 5 characters. It really depended heavily upon the skill you were training. Swords, macing, archer (especially during the days of the archery bug where you could gain without arrows/bolts in your pack) all moved pretty quickly. Magery was GM'able in a matter of days if you had the regs to and a safe place to do it. Taming, for example, took ages however.

In short, a Classic shard was damn hard to play and damn hard to be any kind of success--thats a classic shard.

It wasn't really "hard" per se, it just wasn't as bloated and risk-free as it is now. If you died, it mattered more, because you lost stuff...but the stuff was much easier to replace.

What killed it:
1. Duping--gold became virtually unlimited to a select few but those that did this soon ruined the economy and were placing castles when the rest of us could barely afford a small house for a guild headquarters. Duping, in many cases, involved crashing the shard--and that just drove the rest of us nuts.
2. 3rd party programs such as unattended macroing which once again allowed a few (maybe many) an unfair advantage
3. No penalties for PK ing, or any aggressive action directed against another player. We learned that the most heavily treasure laden MOB in the game was--your fellow player and it was easy and penalty free. Just kill the miners, and sell their product-the greatest challenge was timing it so they were full when you nailed them--as an example.
4. No accountablity for actions, you could EV an entire room and not take a count.
5. A Seer system and in some cases GM's who were corrupt and favored a select few ( Once this was out, and in many cases proven or substantiated enough to convince the player base it was happening it resulted in almost total lack of faith in the developers. This was one of the greatest losses of faith between customer and Developer in the history of MMO's-we still feel its effects today)
And feel free to add to this list.

Yep...pretty much. Well, I guess technically by the time AoS came around, true "classic" UO was already gone...but I'd say that Trammel damaged the game badly, and then AoS finished the job.

For me, a Classic Shard should be:

- Open PvP except in towns
- Only the original skills or T2A era skills (no necro, no chiv, etc)
- NO AoS properties or anything similar
- No neon colors
- No post-T2A content (land masses, playable character races, creatures, NPCs, etc)

Most of the rest of it, like custom vs. classic housing...I just dont care one way or the other. If none of the afore mentioned had been added, and custom housing was added, I wouldn't have cared. What ruined the game for me is the removal of all risk, and the addition of silly out of genre content. Ninjas and ridable dogs, neon colored weapons and Samuari armor, elven treehouses and artifacts...that kind of thing.

 

[Metalstorm]

If I have to listen to one more person complaining that he or she can't build a "proper suit" I am going to throw myself down the throat of an ancient wyrm!!!

I need a classic shard. Not now, RIGHT NOW!


I havn't pvped since AoS.
Shortly after when everything became completely item based I got tired of victory going to the one with the "best toys" and I packed up and moved to Tram.

I've been a Trammie ever since. And while it is not totally bad, it just isn't even a shadow of what Sosaria was.

I miss the days of being ambushed just to turn the tables and give chase to those who tried to butcher me.

Hunting alone was such a different experience back then. You knew if you got ganked by several you would likely die but at least you could take one or two with you.

It was exiting and it was fun.

You didn't need a 60 million dollar suit. You didn't need a skill tally of over 800 points *barf* *gag*.

All you needed was a decent set of crafted armor, a good weapon and heart. Lots and lots of heart.

I just viewed a thread where one person challenged another to a duel on TC1. (neither have a char on the same production shard).
The problem I am told is in the time it would take to build a suit.

That just kills me.

We need a classic skill based shard. Not want. NEED.

I'm sure I probably typed the same ol thing everyone else has in the last two pages of this thread but I figured worse case scenario, this gets bumped and stays in the Devs' radar.

 

[Evlar]

I just viewed a thread where one person challenged another to a duel on TC1. (neither have a char on the same production shard).
The problem I am told is in the time it would take to build a suit.

That just kills me.

That's the killer for me too. Long gone are the days of simply strapping on a GM suit and arming up with GM weapons. Simple and fun and straight to the action.

A battle between two good players took a while to resolve. Even different classes of characters entirely could go toe to toe and it take a while to resolve. I once had a battle on my Smith/Miner/Swordsman, that lasted over thirty minutes against a tank mage PK. I never knew the player before that encounter, but for a number of years afterwards, we were good friends in game and often looked back on that battle. I lost the fight, but it was a close run thing and ended up being very tactical.

Nowadays, it just seems like *bang* wallop... over...

Nobody seems to have any patience. It just seems to be about how to dirtnap someone in a matter of seconds, using whatever max-out items are the order of the day.

Thing is, I've never regarded myself as much of a PvP'er, but in those days, it was actually an engrossing part of the game. Pretty much any template actually stood a chance, against even the "best" templates. It was much more about the skill, strategy and ability of the person on the other side of the screen.

Interestingly, the only game that's come even close to classic UO, seems to be Fallen Earth. They seem to have grasped the concept that player created weapons and armour should account for the "best" items, whilst loot items are but a very small percentage of the higher end stuff. It's still not classic UO though.

I'm now left thinking of the slave in the courtroom from the movie Amistad... shouting "Give us... us freedom!"

"Give us... us classic shards!"

 

[lil debi]

I'm now left thinking of the slave in the courtroom from the movie Amistad... shouting "Give us... us freedom!"

"Give us... us classic shards!"

And Mel Gibson in Brave heart before he was executed

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You didn't need a 60 million dollar suit. You didn't need a skill tally of over 800 points *barf* *gag*.

A whole suit for 60 mil? What shard do you play on? You are lucky to get a decent mempo or gorget for 60 mil on Atlantic these days. rolleyes:

Cool...I got the 666th post in this thread \m/

 

[Llamfia]

EA is a joke , funk em

 

[Metalstorm]

I don't know if I'd call EA a joke. They' were just following the trends and doing what they thought was best for business.

Ultima was never their baby so I can imagine it's hard for them to keep Ultima true to it's origin.

But with that being said, they have a wonderful chance here and now to bring back the essence that is sorely missing.

I agree with Morgana and others in that there are many, many things that are good on the current shards. Things like the crafting menu and animal slots and rune books etc.. that should be included. (I believe rune books and the meditation skill as well were around before AoS but my memory is quite foggy).

To me a classic shard simply means "skill based". Everything else is just details


The only current thing I'd like to see is 'enticement' out and 'discordance' in. That was in my book a fantastic improvement.

I never saw much use for enticement as it was merely herding with a soundtrack

But if we do get enticement I shan't complain. I'll be too overjoyed running around in the classic world to sweat the small things

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

To me a classic shard simply means "skill based". Everything else is just details

The Devil is in the Details.

I think the one detail the devs need to get right for a classic (hybrid if you prefer) style shard is the penalties for PK's. Without a decent system that deters PK's but has viable options for PvPers (Order/Chaos, Factions etc.) then the shard will die. It would be nice to hear from a Dev on what they think would be a good PKing deterrent, though I'm sure they won't comment much on these threads because they don't want to get our hopes up any higher than they already are.

 

[Evlar]

I'm not sure there's any current devs that worked on, or played UO pre-AoS or pre-Tram.

If any of them wish to comment here to say I'm wrong in that assumption, they're more than welcome

Still, it would be interesting to hear their thoughts on "balancing" PK's, purely in a theoretical sense of course...

 

[Metalstorm]

The Devil is in the Details.

So true.
So very, very true

 

[Archie]

Murderers' guild: The only way to attack another player without being in a warring guild/faction would be to join the murderers' guild. A character would have to have at least 80 in Spirit Speak to join and stay in the guild, lol.

 

[Derium of ls]

The Murderers' guild idea leads me to a bit of an OT comment. I've always wanted to see something like that but allow all NPC guilds to talk to each other just like 'real guilds'. You're a thief and need some back up? you just ask all your fellow thieves to come help! Even for crafting guilds it would be cool.

Okay, there is me random thought for the day.

 

[Babble]

Would you guys want to see the classic shard with only the T2a graphics, or could some of the newer graphics, Crimson Dragons, hooded robes be implemented too?

Classic for me means more skillbased, before AOS hits, but not that the new graphics could not be used. I would prefer the medieval european style, so less SE stuffand definitely no elves only. But why not let people make gargoyles and elves if the have the same stats and features like humans?

 

[Derium of ls]

the old graphics only for sure

 

[dum3886]

I say yes... i agree with Babble... Classic shard is about game play... not about being stuck in time forever...
I hope if they start a shard it begins with t2a, is fel yadda yadda... but i expect things to change i.e: new monsters new this new that but remaining to the core original ideals. With new monsters there are new challenges = fun.. no harm done... just dun bring in no chivalry crap, no (+ vanquishing) half aprons or sumthing stupid and i am happy.

Having new monsters with a slightly higher vanquishing drop rate won't ruin the game really? anyone disagree? I just see it as creating new challenges so the pvmers r happy = a healthy population for the shard as well... so people work as a team unlike now when ppl can solo everything.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

I say yes... i agree with Babble... Classic shard is about game play... not about being stuck in time forever...
I hope if they start a shard it begins with t2a, is fel yadda yadda... but i expect things to change i.e: new monsters new this new that but remaining to the core original ideals. With new monsters there are new challenges = fun.. no harm done... just dun bring in no chivalry crap, no (+ vanquishing) half aprons or sumthing stupid and i am happy.

Having new monsters with a slightly higher vanquishing drop rate won't ruin the game really? anyone disagree? I just see it as creating new challenges so the pvmers r happy = a healthy population for the shard as well... so people work as a team unlike now when ppl can solo everything.

First I also agree with Babble. Classic is about gameplay. I also wouldn't mind seeing gargoyles, necromancers and paladins in Ultima Online as they have always played a large part in the lore of the Age of Enlightenment (the time period that UO is based upon). Elves went the way of the dodo around the end of the Age of Darkness (Mondain, Minax, Exodus...first three Ultimas)

Now as to more powerful mobs in a classic setting, I think that is a recipe for disaster. The stronger a mob gets the more people need gear like Vanq weapons and Invul armor to defeat it. Soon everyone has those weapons and are clamoring for stronger monsters because the current crop is too easy....Devs add stronger monsters. People need better gear to kill these new monsters. Dev's add things like Artifacts or Runics to "enhance" crafted items...soon after that comes the completely item based game we have today.

*Edit*
Wow, reading what I just posted has made me realize how Trammel lead directly to the creation of the item based AoS system. Without PK's to keep the economy stable and add challange people quickly outpaced the old high end mobs and wanted more, which started the cycle of itemization. I have said that I do not want Trammel on a classic shard, though I would still play one if it had it on it. I'm going to have to revise that opinion now. Trammel lead to AoS, and will do so again if it is on a Classic Shard.

 

[Archie]

Push through monsters are not classic. (Did I already mention that?)

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Wow, reading what I just posted has made me realize how Trammel lead directly to the creation of the item based AoS system. Without PK's to keep the economy stable and add challange people quickly outpaced the old high end mobs and wanted more, which started the cycle of itemization. I have said that I do not want Trammel on a classic shard, though I would still play one if it had it on it. I'm going to have to revise that opinion now. Trammel lead to AoS, and will do so again if it is on a Classic Shard.

Exactly!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Would you guys want to see the classic shard with only the T2a graphics, or could some of the newer graphics, Crimson Dragons, hooded robes be implemented too?

Classic for me means more skillbased, before AOS hits, but not that the new graphics could not be used. I would prefer the medieval european style, so less SE stuffand definitely no elves only. But why not let people make gargoyles and elves if the have the same stats and features like humans?

You are on a slippery slope here. The problem is, people (classic fans) identify with the old school stuff from UO that has become "boring" in today's version of the game.

The idea of a Classic Shard is to bring back players that quit because the game was no longer the game they started playing due to changes. These changes include: Trammel, AoS, neon colored weapons and armor, Elves, Samurais, Necros, Paladins, pastle colored ridable dogs, etc. etc.

The best way to make a Classic Shard successful, at least in the beginning (the first year or two) is to just stick to what worked back then. If things need to be tweeked, then so be it, but the problem with introducing something like a Crimson Dragon, for example, in a Classic environment is that it would require an escalation of player power in order to fight it. The great thing about the T2A era is that creatures were not introduced that were impossible for players to kill without __________ item, or _________ skill. There was a much greater balance between what you could do vs. what you needed in order to do it.

For example, a new player in a suit of leather armor carrying a GM made katana had little chance against a Lich Lord, but a GM Warrior in that same suit of armor, and using that same sword, stood a really good chance of defeating the monster. That is what is meant by skill-based vs. item-based. A lot of people think it means that the person playing the game needed skill...it doesn't really, although that certainly is a factor.

The best course, in my opinion, that Mythic could follow with this would be:

1. Lauch the shard with only the original landmass and original content (no T2A lands, no T2A creatures)
2. Add T2A lands and creatures after a few months.
3. Run events and keep dungeon areas fresh by changing the spawns in them occassionally.
4. At some point, maybe 1-2 years in, evaluate the shard, and see how crowded it is.
5. If it is very crowded, add Ilshenar...but not the Ilshenar (LBR) creatures. NO ROBOTS ON A CLASSIC SHARD!!
6. If it is not very crowded, leave it alone.

The worst mistake that Mythic could make with this shard would be allowing it to simply become what UO currently is today.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Would the T2A lands really be needed? I don't know about the rest of you but I rarely ventured there. I would occasionally hit up the City of the Dead or Cyclops Valley but that was very rare. The only place in the lost lands I went to with any semi-regularity was Delucia, and that was only for the convenience of all the hide bearing animals nearby, as well as close mountains to mine. I guess if I had played a bard or tamer I might have spent more time there but I always found more than enough in Britannia to keep me occupied.

 

[Archie]

Would the T2A lands really be needed? I don't know about the rest of you but I rarely ventured there. I would occasionally hit up the City of the Dead or Cyclops Valley but that was very rare. The only place in the lost lands I went to with any semi-regularity was Delucia, and that was only for the convenience of all the hide bearing animals nearby, as well as close mountains to mine. I guess if I had played a bard or tamer I might have spent more time there but I always found more than enough in Britannia to keep me occupied.

A whole new world with the classic rule set would be my preference. Something big enough to explore and fit adequate housing, but small enough to keep players interacting with each other.

But that's probably not going to happen, so I'd prefer the original world without t2a.

 

[Evlar]

The idea of a Classic Shard is to bring back players that quit because the game was no longer the game they started playing due to changes. These changes include: Trammel, AoS, neon colored weapons and armor, Elves, Samurais, Necros, Paladins, pastle colored ridable dogs, etc. etc.

That Morgana, pretty much sums up why I don't play Ultima Online any more. I have tried, I really have and it's perhaps other players that have kept me playing as long as I did. It took me all that time (period after introduction of Trammel and AoS), to realise that to me, the game just wasn't the Ultima Online I signed up to, insofar as the core gameplay was concerned. It essentially turned into less of a "game" I enjoyed playing and more of a glorified chat-room.

Perhaps I lived in hope that yet another development team would maybe take the game back to it's roots, rather than taken further from them. Obviously that never happened. There's no reason why there can't be a classic option available now though. Seriously, I'm done playing a game that's no different to any other out there, but doesn't even have as good graphics. It's entirely no wonder the game doesn't attract new players.

As for T2A, then I say bring it in with the original lands at launch of any classic servers. I remain confident that *if* a classic shard were launched, it would be populated highly enough to sustain both the original landmasses and the Lost Lands. I'm not averse to them adding other landmasses later on if the demand was there, so long as the "core" of the game we miss, that being the gameplay, doesn't suffer from the introduction of new items and crap. Lands, art and graphical tinkerings are fine in my book, but let's have the single facet, AoS free game that we all agree that we miss. The rest is mostly window dressing.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I spent a great deal of my time on Atlantic in Delucia, there was a great community there and it was the official home base of Visolara. I recall vividly that there was never a dull moment since in addition to being Order/Chaos we were warred with as many guilds as possible.

I could log in at six in the morning and find one or two chaos guys creeping around the town and make some quick loot. Before I got into that however I spent a lot of time skilling my dexxer up at the del Orc Fort, now that was a fun little group of people in and of itself, you had the pvm guys farming liches, you had the pks making their occasional rounds and you had the guys like me who mostly killed looters or people dumb enough to cast fire field in the open.

We had some real characters there, some were nice, some were funny, and some were just downright obnoxious. I don't recall the area ever being underpopulated is the point I am really trying to make, although that was then and this is now so who knows.

I'd like to say that I also agree a lot with Renyard on his post dealing with some of the changes being good, with the very notable exception of factions, I could go on a monster tangent about factions but I'll spare us all that tirade.

UO was never perfect it had it's flaws, but I daresay that those of us who were there have yet to find a game that compares to it's epic nature. I have heard it said more then once that the same old same old will eventually get boring, perhaps there is some truth there but I played UO seven days a week at least five hours a day for three years, and I never got even remotely close to being bored, neither did the people I played with.

 

[Metalstorm]

What's al the talk about a Trammel classic shard??

I really like Trammel in this modern item based world, I pretty much stay there 100% these days but a classic shard by definition is Fel rule set as well as skill based.

I really don't see the point in a tram version of a classic shard.

The item based system works really well for pvm and we are in no short supply of such shards.

But in a skill based world pvp can be exhilarating.
One builds his or her skills then learns how to use them. They learn technique. They learn strategy. There are no special spam moves, only the skills you possess and the way you've learned to use them.

When the odds are even, a fight can usually go either way at any given time.

When farming mobs you will every once in a while get the feeling of the hair on the back of your neck sticking up. You may even sweat a little as you sit at your keyboard twitching nervously as you wonder what might be lurking around that next corner.

You never really know what to expect. It's rarely ever the same old thing each day.

You really can't get that experience from the Trammel rule set.

I exiled myself to Tram years ago because the item thing just doesn't mesh well with me.
It irritates me a little bit that a player only needs a few skill points and can then "jewel up".

That just seems wrong to me.
It's fine for fighting A.I. monsters but against real people it just seems more balanced when it's skill against skill as well as the skill of using those skills.

I suppose this is why imbuing was implemented. Now it's much more accessible for the sporadic player (a few hrs of play a week) to "jewel up" and "mod up"or what ever it is called these days.

I still prefer to pit the raw skills I worked for and earned against those that my combatant has worked for and earned.

I hope this is making sense. I'm not so good at wording myself.
I'm the worlds' second worse speaker. The worlds' worse speaker has no tongue and I just barely beat him by the skin of my teeth.

Edit: A little clarification: When I said "when the odds are even" I meant when you're not outnumbered.

 

[Antonio Cataneo]

so any news?9

 

[joe80x86]

I hope that the people that choose to play this type of shard will want to play all aspects of the game, but accept that it wouldn't be completely safe. One thing I know having played UO for 5 years and then playing wow for the last 5 is that players hate to die to another player. Even in wow where all pvp is consentual. You consent to pvp just at login if it's a pvp server or when you join a battleground or arena. People still hate to die, just look at their forums its full of nerf X class threads and they lose nothing when they die. It's also a item based game so gear plays a roll new characters get steamrolled by vets.

What I loved about classic UO was that there wasn't people outgearing you, that you could go to a vendor (another thing I loved about UO instead of a auction house) and buy a GM made set of gear and pvp without grinding some kind of points. That people that played 24/7 didn't have any advantage. Sure you could use that vanq weapon, but if you die I own it.

Not to mention that crafting was actually an important part of the game. Being a GM blacksmith was hard back in the day and everyone knew them. You would ask the GM at the smith to make you a weapon.

I don't know what other peoples experiences where, but I did more pvm then I did pvp and never had a real problem with pks. I learned to be quick on the recall, then learned how to fight and whenever people went to a town and said pk people were willing to go deal player justice. Later as a pk I feared seeing a gate open. Pvm was more exciting I thought knowing that a pk could come, that I could get surronded by mob and not get away because of pushback, which just made the game even less of a risk in tram. Later bags of sending made it even easier, when I found a vanq or power weapon I would recall straight to the bank and still worried about thieves not just mail it there. I hope people want a little challenge in their pvm too.

Hopefully anyone that want to play a classic shard would have a little thicker skin then the average MMO player. It would make a more mature player base and a better community without straight up "sheep". I don't think everone has to be either pvp or pvm exculsively you can have more then one character and dieing in a vidoe game isn't the end of the world even if you lose pixels.

I haven't played in along time after about 2001 but this is what I remember from my early days around 98/99. I fondly remember when one of my friends became a GM smith.

I personally would join back up for a classic server (though I do like the free one I am on now). I actually never really had huge issues with PKing there were a few times it got out of hand but it was never really that bad where we played on Catskills.

 

[Archie]

Does Classic mean ,no insurance ,house keys,no secures ,etc ....?
How much of the Old UO would you want and how much of the new UO would you import. I would agree NO TRAMMEL .Pure Classic UO would have to be defined further, but then the best thing would be no whiners . What you see is what you get

I think of three time frames that could be considered classic, and a fourth that's close.

1) original UO (dread days)

2) post rep patch/early t2a (tank thieves, pot chugging archers)

3) mid to late t2a (insta-hit, precast)

4) UO:R mechanics without the mirror that created those ridiculous push through monsters (UO:R without Trammel)

#1 had abysmal house security that #2 started to address. By late t2a, housing security had vastly improved. (Co-owners, changing house locks, and secure house trading were all in before UO:R.) But the Cleanup Britannia phase added the annoyance/ability of having to/being able to lock down items inside of containers. That was a plus and a negative, because it was more secure to store valuable items but fewer items could be stored because stuff that was not locked down would decay, even in a container. (Prior to that a barricade of tables could be used to protect locked down containers which could hold up to 125 items and had no weight limit. That was handy for people who had small houses.)

There were a lot of additions prior to UO:R that most people would probably want in a classic shard, like skill locks, stat locks, newbie house deeds, secure house trades, etc. The duelists would probably favor insta-hit and precast, which is mid to late t2a. (Personally I liked the combat mechanics before t2a, and liked the UO:R mechanics just as much. One used to be able to outmaneuver a swing before insta-hit and anatomy was not important, and the UO:R changes ended the cookie-cutter template of choice that was favored during t2a -- the hally mage.)

 

[Beleg Megil]

As a player since Beta, I'd like to point that the reason shards are not "classic" is because the players asked for change. The game, therefore, evolved based on player suggestions. Pretty much every change made in the game, since beta, is because the players wanted things to change and evolve.

The game has always been item based. Period. Sure, invulnerable armor and vanq weapons aren't as powerfull as the stuff we have now, but it was still a huge edge over people that didn't have such things. 2 players with equal skill, one wearing the best player made equipment and one wearing vanq/invulnerable stuff...guess what happened when they fought? The vanq/invulnerable player would win. That's item bassed. And that's what the reality was in 97/98.

I look over these "classic shard" threads and I swear, the majority of you have no idea what you even mean when you say you want a classic shard.

The game evolved for a reason.


What it seems you want is something that never existed. And when you get it, I doubt you will be satisfied once the "new shard smell" wears off. You want a shard that is jam packed full of players where everyone is equal, every template could concieveably solo pvp every other template, and the outcome would always be 50/50. The only deciding factor would be the player at the keyboard's skill.

That never existed.

That all being said, once everyone decides what a "classic shard" is, I say EA/Mythic should give it to ya. I'll be interested in seeing who is satisfied once they get what they think they want.

 

[Archie]

We've been trying to keep it contained to this one thread, with a few slip ups here and there.

Maybe the anti-classic shard folk need their own thread they can troll in?

 

[Evlar]

As a player since Beta, I'd like to point that the reason shards are not "classic" is because the players asked for change. The game, therefore, evolved based on player suggestions. Pretty much every change made in the game, since beta, is because the players wanted things to change and evolve.

But one has to ask the question... was it the majority of players at the time of each "change", actually asking for those changes?

If you look at these forums as a yard-stick, then isn't it always a vocal majority, who are asking for change? We here in the "classic" thread, are just such a minority compared to the general populace of the "current" UO playing posters. That much is clear.

Who is at fault for the direction the changes over the years have taken? The "vocal" players for asking, or the developers for perhaps misinterpreting the requests, or even implementing something utterly different entirely?

There's no reason why a game shouldn't evolve, none at all. However, my gripe with current UO, is that it offers nothing different to what countless other MMO's out there offer (can't even bring myself to call it an MMORPG now...). Frankly, successive developers, be it with or without the support of players, turned the game into something different entirely. Given current player numbers on all but a few production shards, I would suggest that former players, actually numbering the "majority", clearly were not happy with the changes made over the years.

I now number amongst the former players. I stuck with the game up until this year, though it was literally only other players who kept me with it so long.

Suffice it to say though, there is nothing out there that even compares to the depth of gameplay possible from "classic" UO. I always think it will be a niche to offer classic shards and possibly a relatively small one. There are plenty of "classic" gamers though, who like myself, are utterly dismayed by the lack of depth and imagination to many games these days.

Ultima Online was an ocean of depth, compared to the paddling pool we have now. Why don't they (or someone else) try to cash in on the numbers of us out here, with dollars/pounds/Euros/etc in hand, who are ready to pay and play?

My thoughts at the moment, is that EA simply doesn't care enough to support such a venture. The smaller the Mythic team gets, the more it's merged with BioWare, the less interest there is in Ultima Online. Thus you see the selling of rights to NetDragon, who are making a completely "new" Ultima Online, though it's likely to be in name only.

Frankly, yes, I'm cynical about things at the moment. I would love a classic option for UO, but I currently believe we've more chance of seeing the final death rattle of the game as we know it entirely, before we see any classic shards.

I actually do sympathise with Mythic though. Like many other once great independent software houses, they've been consumed by EA, chewed up and are now being spat out unceremoniously in various directions.

 

[Derium of ls]

The game evolved for a reason.

because ONE man wanted to make it item based? It's commonly known the guy who made AoS is the WoW lead designer, and he wanted to get a job with Blizzard, so he made AoS in order to add it onto his resume. So he left us right after that, and is still the lead designer of WoW. That's a big reason I want a classic shard, UO was turned into a WoW clone even before WoW just so Mr. Chilton could impress a few people and get a new job...

And because the man who made the game and hated the idea was forced out? Had EA not made some huge mistakes, Lord British would have been around still to direct things. He never did us wrong all the way back to the 1970s, I doubt he would have from 2000 on.

/massive Vent

So because of that you think us wanting to go back to the way the game was meant to be played is wrong?

 

[BuzZzZ]

The game has always been item based. Period. Sure, invulnerable armor and vanq weapons aren't as powerfull as the stuff we have now, but it was still a huge edge over people that didn't have such things. 2 players with equal skill, one wearing the best player made equipment and one wearing vanq/invulnerable stuff...guess what happened when they fought? The vanq/invulnerable player would win. That's item bassed. And that's what the reality was in 97/98.

Difference is it's at that persons own peril to bring invul and vanq gear out in the open. I will happily fight people with better gear if there was a chance of me looting it after. I lose nothing, he loses everything.

 

[Derium of ls]

Difference is it's at that persons own peril to bring invul and vanq gear out in the open. I will happily fight people with better gear if there was a chance of me looting it after. I lose nothing, he loses everything.

very well put.

 

[Archie]

Difference is it's at that persons own peril to bring invul and vanq gear out in the open. I will happily fight people with better gear if there was a chance of me looting it after. I lose nothing, he loses everything.

Yup.

It was entirely possible to run rather light and win on skill.

 

[Evlar]

I for one, just think that anyone claiming there was such a differential gulf between Vanq/Inviul, against GM crafted, either didn't play much, didn't PvP much, or simply wasn't very good at PvP.

I was never all about PvP. I played the game as a whole. I did stand up for myself though and interestingly, most of my PvP encounters were with my miner/smith/swordsman. The template wasn't partucularly suited to out and out PvP, yet I tended to come out on top of most encounters, wearing nothing more than GM armour and wielding a GM pickaxe, which has always been classed as a swordsmanship weapon as far as I can remember.

Thing is, I developed good strategies to handle PK encounters. That was down to my own gameplay methods. The bonus was that sometimes those PK'ers were wearing good stuff. Mining really was profitable back then for me. Ingots and loot! If I did win an encounter and got good loot, be sure, I was off to the bank as quick as a flash! I never lost anything more than a GM suit and some ingots. Hey-ho... in for a penny, in for a pound.

So I don't know about others, maybe it was a psychological thing, but even when engaged in specific PvP with other characters, I never once wore "named" items. Anything below Vanq/Invul, I usually gave away. Anything decent, I sold until I could afford my first house, then it usually went on display in the house, or again, I sold it.

If I even attempted to combat a PK whilst mining in Fel now, I would have absolutely no chance, even with the best intended strategy. That isn't because players are necessarily "better" now either. Most of the best quality PvP players left UO a long time ago.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

As a player since Beta, I'd like to point that the reason shards are not "classic" is because the players asked for change. The game, therefore, evolved based on player suggestions. Pretty much every change made in the game, since beta, is because the players wanted things to change and evolve.

The game has always been item based. Period. Sure, invulnerable armor and vanq weapons aren't as powerfull as the stuff we have now, but it was still a huge edge over people that didn't have such things. 2 players with equal skill, one wearing the best player made equipment and one wearing vanq/invulnerable stuff...guess what happened when they fought? The vanq/invulnerable player would win. That's item bassed. And that's what the reality was in 97/98.

I look over these "classic shard" threads and I swear, the majority of you have no idea what you even mean when you say you want a classic shard.

The game evolved for a reason.


What it seems you want is something that never existed. And when you get it, I doubt you will be satisfied once the "new shard smell" wears off. You want a shard that is jam packed full of players where everyone is equal, every template could concieveably solo pvp every other template, and the outcome would always be 50/50. The only deciding factor would be the player at the keyboard's skill.

That never existed.

That all being said, once everyone decides what a "classic shard" is, I say EA/Mythic should give it to ya. I'll be interested in seeing who is satisfied once they get what they think they want.

I was typing a long response to your post with detailed reasons why I favor a classic shard, but it was putting me to sleep so I stopped. Bascially, I consider "Classic UO"
the system that existed prior to Age of Shadows. Going from 1997 through UO:LBR is what I call Evolution....Age of Shadows was an attempt to attract WoW gamers that were never going to come in the first place.

The Age of Shadows system made crafting worthless. You need runics obtained via the BOD system. The BOD system itself isn't a bad thing...it's a nice way to provide crafters with perks if they like to pursue it...but what about people who just want to craft armor to PvP with? They *still* have to get that rare BOD that will yield a barbed kit or valorite hammer. We can talk about some of the other hammers, but they are worthless. Well they were useless until imbuing came along. So now the entire crafting system is based on imbuing. Wow...what a great system this is turning out to be.


The Age of Shadows also made it mandatory to PvM if you wanted to PvP. Yeah, you could certainly buy all of those items...but where would you get the money? Buying items with RL money was your only other option...and that is not something a player should be forced to do because they don't care for the Trammel side of the game.

The Age of Shadows brought about insurance. Insurance is probably the most worthless part of the current game. Wheeeeeeeeee...I got 6k for the 500 mil I ended up paying to build this suit! All I need to do is kill...let's see...83,333 people before I break even (assuming I never die and never have to modify the suit!). No Thanks...I'd rather have loot from the defeated. An opponents artifacts might be more rewarding. it's certainly true that PvP isn't all about the loot...but the potential of getting that one sweet item from a defeated opponent doesn't hurt.

The Age of Shadows brought about the worst non-exploit based cheating the game has seen. It's great to cheat when you know you won't lose anything! Let me introduce everybody to an interesting idea...people who cheat suck. They couldn't PvP to save their lives, so they cheat instead. The Pre-AoS system had a way of dealing with that...they died because regardless of enhanced speed...they still sucked. Now they can rely on items to keep them alive. Nice..sounds very appealing, doesn't it?

I'm not saying Pre-AoS didn't have cheats because it certainly did. I'm saying that the Age of Shadows system encourages it even more because a great suit makes you impossible to kill quickly (at least before you can jump 8 screens in 2 seconds).

Ok, that's enough for now. I'm getting tired again.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

That all being said, once everyone decides what a "classic shard" is, I say EA/Mythic should give it to ya. I'll be interested in seeing who is satisfied once they get what they think they want.

There is a sticky at the top of UHall...that's more or less what the majority of us (classic shard supporters) consider to be "classic".

This is a common tactic amongst anti-classic shard/pro-no risk, item based fans use to attempt to derail the topic of a classic shard.

"Oh, look, they don't even know what they want!!"

Lies. Pure and simple...lies.

The truth is that most of us just want pre-AoS and pre-Trammel, and don't really care about a lot of the smaller details.

There are some people that post here that want a Trammel-based Classic Shard, but they are few compared to those that want it to be Classic ruleset.

It sounds to me, based on your post, that you are very content with the game as it is currently. So my best advice is to ignore Classic Shard threads, because you are going to find an awful lot of people that aren't...and none of your patronizing, smug, diatribes are going to change that.

 

[Evlar]

Don't you realise though Sergul'zan_SP, that unless you play on Siege with a single facet, UO isn't about PvP any more?

Well, that's what the response to a quest that featured elements in Fel would tell you...

*shrugs*

 

[Archie]

Don't you realise though Sergul'zan_SP, that unless you play on Siege with a single facet, UO isn't about PvP any more?

Well, that's what the response to a quest that featured elements in Fel would tell you...

*shrugs*

The first two weeks of Siege were a blast. After that, it was still fun.

But UO was never about PvP. That was just a part of it.