Bard changes are horrible

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MalagAste

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I'm not sure I like this 1 mastery at a time ..... I have worked myself to the bone created a 4x 120 bard....

Now..... I'm going to have to "chose" which of those 3 skills I want to get the most use out of?????

Sucks.

At least Mages can just swap books for gods sakes.....

And fighters need only swap weapons...... I ALREADY have to change instruments to be using the "best suited" one..... now I'm going to have to do a stinking quest everytime I want to change which of my skills I want to be more useful?????

Not sure I care to do that. Think my poor bard is going to be sill mothballed.
 
B

Beastmaster

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Logrus - I know nothing about you up until now, but it's plain you have no inkling of knowledge with respect to the requests bards having been making for years. These mastery buffs are indeed nice, but the only similarity your system has to our requests is the songbook placed in our paperdoll. And that is a very weak link at that.

PLEASE REVISIT THE BARD AND ADJUST TIMERS

You could scrap this whole new system and fix the damn timers and make the entire bard community much happier. That should take less than an hour of programming time.

The veterans here know all to well how this will play out. The intent is to throw the bards a bone hoping to shut them up for another 5 years or so.

DO THE RIGHT THING! FIX THE TIMERS!
 

aoLOLita

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Thank you, Devs:) Something positive has been added for the Bard class, and to me that seems like a good thing ...

But many here seem to be like the Lottery winner who curses his "bad luck" because he only won $100,000 and not the million jackpot :)
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

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I believe that a pure mage should probably be a better mage than a mystic mage, or a necro mage.
Your ideals do not equal UO reality. A pure Mage is only better than a Necro/Mage if the person playing is better. If they are equal in player skill then the Necro/Mage has the advantage.

To Party or Not to Party?
...
Instanced Corpses > Idealistic MMO-Tinted Glasses.

Side Notes:
Bard abilities should only be cancelled by using the same skill as the mastery focus. (ie Using provocation will cancel Inspire and Invigorate, but not any of the other abilities)(If you want to Discord and Despair it'll take 2 Bards)
Ok, atm this isn't happening.

Bards interupt threshold is lower for PvP damage than PvM damage.
(In PvP with all 70's anything under 6th circle or a heavy pain strike probably won't interupt the bard. In PvM closer to flame strike or a high damage armour ignore.)
So you can stand in the corner if you like, I'll be out there swinging away.
??? I'm not sure I know what you're talking about here, but if you mean the actual casting of the new effects then nope, they get fizzled the same as everything else in UO thats cast.

I did not make a mistake in coding. It is my intent that switching between masteries requires more effort and thought than using a soul stone or changing equipment.
No one said you did. I said you were too lazy to code it properly because the first 'reason' you gave was that it was 'easiest for you to code it that way'.

If a bard wants to max provocation thats a 240 skill point investment
If a mage wants to max magery thats a 240 skill point investment
If a provo bard wants to max discord thats a 360 skill point investment
If a mage wants to max necro thats a 480 skill point investment
Prov = 240 pts
Discord = 240 pts
Mage = 240 pts
Necro = 240 pts

It's not like the bard skills function without Music, so it may be shared but Magery functions without Eval for Healing and Mage Weapons and a bunch of other stuff. Mage/Necro/SS = 360.

Casting Not Interrupting Bards: ( Yeah that would take about 2 seconds before it had to be nerfed)
I think you're misunderstanding the problem. Casting the bard abilities interruptable, fine, not a problem.

But what exactly is the point of having SDI and Casting Focus as two of the abilities if casting spells while they are active ends the effects?
 

RaDian FlGith

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I'm not sure I like this 1 mastery at a time ..... I have worked myself to the bone created a 4x 120 bard....

Now..... I'm going to have to "chose" which of those 3 skills I want to get the most use out of?????
It doesn't make it so your other two skills are less useful, or do anything less than they already do. It gives you the opportunity to boost one of the three. Again, making choices is a good thing.

At least Mages can just swap books for gods sakes.....
Uh, no offense, but that's got nothing to do with anything this thread's about. Mages can swap slayer books. Guess what: Bards can swap slayer instruments. Mages and Bards are already even in this regard.

Now if they gave us an elemental mastery that as mages we had to choose between Fire, Cold, Electric, or Poison as our main damage types, and doing so gave us a boost to that single damage type, then you'd have an equivalent comparison to mages. And I wouldn't expect them to allow us to choose all four elements in an elemental mastery system, because otherwise, why bother putting it in at all.

Choice is a good thing.

And fighters need only swap weapons...... I ALREADY have to change instruments to be using the "best suited" one..... now I'm going to have to do a stinking quest everytime I want to change which of my skills I want to be more useful?????

Not sure I care to do that. Think my poor bard is going to be sill mothballed.
Err... fighters only need swap weapons... bards, as you point out, only need to swap instruments. That's the same thing.

People need to stop blowing this out of proportion and look at it as an enhancement.
 

phantus

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Casting Not Interrupting Bards: ( Yeah that would take about 2 seconds before it had to be nerfed)
I think you're misunderstanding the problem. Casting the bard abilities interruptable, fine, not a problem.

But what exactly is the point of having SDI and Casting Focus as two of the abilities if casting spells while they are active ends the effects?
I do and I don't understand this either. I can only assume that the intent is for the bard to support the party or group. This would be great if UO's loot system had a party loot system. The fact is it doesn't and while I would love to go around and around with the "don't party people you don't trust" garbage it's not a system that is feasible. If the party loot was added in some way that would be appropriate to UO this system would be better. Again, we are adding SDI and other bonus' that most are already maxed out on because of imbued suits.

This system is limited to group play and only then with people that are comfortable and honest enough to split loot as I didn't see where these abilities garner the bard loot rights. Generally boss encounters end with the party dropping so the loot is instanced and everyone gets their own loot to prevent the possibility of ninja looting and the like.

I not looking a gift horse in the mouth here and appreciate effort. I seem to be in a minority that doesn't believe bards needed any more power than they already have however.

Hang in there Logrus. The concepts of this design are good regardless of any perceived holes poke in it.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

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Again, making choices is a good thing.
Yes it is so why don't we have one? If I have Prov & Discord on my character I'm entitled to 4 spells, but limited to 2. As you can only cast 1 effect at a time this limit is redundant. If I'm in the middle of a hunt or event and want to use an ability from the other mastery, even though I'm entitled for it, my only 'choice' is to leave and mess around doing the quest.

A good choice would be 'you've done both quests, you have both skill requirements you can use both masteries but still only 1 spell at a time' that is a 'good choice' what we have is a limited choice and there is no good reason for it.
 

RaDian FlGith

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But they're RUINING bards!
Think of the children!
Let me be the first to come out publicly and say, "I hope they ruin mages in this fashion by offering elemental masteries!"

The sky is falling, and I want to get hit!
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

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Yes there is.
You're just refusing to (or otherwise incapable of) see it.
Then what it is?

So far the only reasons Logrus has posted have been that firstly it was easiest for him to code that way (thats not a good reason), and secondly an idealistic view that a pure template should be more powerful than a hybrid, which may be a apply irl but it doesn't apply to UO, where hybrids are 99% of the time more powerful than pures.
 

Lord Chaos

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Why 1 mastery at a time?
It is my thought that if two people of equal skill were to dedicate the same time and effort to the same thing they would be equally adept. By the same standard if the same two people in a different situation where the first focused on only one thing, and the second focused on two things. They may both be considered masters at what they do but they will likely not be equal.

I believe that a pure mage should probably be a better mage than a mystic mage, or a necro mage. Hence a Bard can go ahead and max skills in every one of their bard abilities, but they will be best at their focus ability.
Ok, that makes no sense, the bard skills are part of the same "skill group", necromancy and magery are different magery groups, you can mix them, but thats the same as a tamer/bard.

The place you're going wrong is that it doesn't give additional power, you can only use 1 mastery at one time, so having them all once you do the quest unbalances nothing, it makes the bard more desirable and less of a hassle to play and god knows bards have been through enough hassle. (as anyone who's trained provocation up to legendary old school way can attest)

Though I do like the idea of posibly adding some multi discipline abilities to future iterations of the bard mastery system I would still want masteries to be geared towards focusing.
You focus by only allowing one to be used at a time.

The mastery system takes a step away from the template for all seasons. Any of the abilities will be useful, though they may not be the best for the situation.
Erhm, what it does is take something away from "true" bards and favor FOTM bards and side-skilled bards, Honestly this should have been a big boost to "true" bards and not an excuse for people to script up new FOTM bards.

Heck, one I know is simply soul stoning the bard skills off onto 3 different characters, logging on the one that fits the situation, each one of those 3 will be vastly overpowering compared to the original "true" bard.

To Party or Not to Party?
The beneficial bard abilities can augment the effectiveness of their party members. You don't have to party, you can keep the benefits all to yourself. Though I'm sure any group would be very appreciative for any of the beneficial abilities. At the same time, if you're just out for yourself you may appreciate the extra survivability.
Except the mana cost is so staggering the abilities are near impossible to keep going for more than a couple of seconds (aka useless).

And no, groups won't appreciate the "oh, you're going there? I'll have to change masteries, can you guys wait an hour twiddling your thumbs while I go and do the quest?".

Not to mention the ability to outdamage most casters in game for short periods or if you prefer, feed off the damage that anyone else is doing to your target.
Uhm...lol, the damage even by the discordance ability is palty compared to an SDI mage or mystic. And hell bards are incredibly non-diverse...mage classes can summon, use utility spells, do damage of all kinds, heal, cure, boost, etc...what can a bard do?...They have a SINGLE ability per skill + 1 of 2 mastery skills...thats a max of 3...that only lasts for a couple of seconds.

Side Notes:
Bard abilities should only be cancelled by using the same skill as the mastery focus. (ie Using provocation will cancel Inspire and Invigorate, but not any of the other abilities)(If you want to Discord and Despair it'll take 2 Bards)
Why is that? It pretty much nerfs the bard when using the mastery, mages aren't forbidden from doing damage when they have an EV up for instance. Why should bards be penalized for using their ability?

Bards interupt threshold is lower for PvP damage than PvM damage.
(In PvP with all 70's anything under 6th circle or a heavy pain strike probably won't interupt the bard. In PvM closer to flame strike or a high damage armour ignore.)
So you can stand in the corner if you like, I'll be out there swinging away.

All bard abilities are affected by LMC.
So now all bards will have to completely suit respec to get +int +mana +LMC, +mana regen + LRC...no room for luck or good resists anymore, one of the main advantages of a bard.

All for one ability that can be used for a short burst, while mage classes get huge benefits and loads of abilities.

I did not make a mistake in coding. It is my intent that switching between masteries requires more effort and thought than using a soul stone or changing equipment.
So can we look forward to that in the future a mage will have to do a quest to switch between circle of spells?

If a bard wants to max provocation thats a 240 skill point investment
If a mage wants to max magery thats a 240 skill point investment
If a provo bard wants to max discord thats a 360 skill point investment
If a mage wants to max necro thats a 480 skill point investment
Currently the only benefit to adding a secondary bard skill is that you can use that skill without interrupting your mastery abilities in the other skill.
These make for some powerful combinations but I'll wait a few weeks for players to figure out the ramifications of combining skills and abilities. Maybe its OP maybe they could use some more tweaks.
Max magery is 120 skills, bards are useless with 120 skills

Mage and Necro are still two different branches of abilities and you can use both with no penalty.

And exactly what you're saying, there's little benefit in having a "true" bard, you're relegating bards to being FOTM template additions. Basically leaving us old bards in the closet.

Casting Not Interrupting Bards: ( Yeah that would take about 2 seconds before it had to be nerfed)
And why would that have to be nerfed? Whats the point of giving an SDI increase when you can't cast spells, that makes no sense. The SDI increase is not *that* powerful in PvM.
 
M

maroite

Guest
Side Notes:
Bard abilities should only be cancelled by using the same skill as the mastery focus. (ie Using provocation will cancel Inspire and Invigorate, but not any of the other abilities)(If you want to Discord and Despair it'll take 2 Bards)
....

So you add masteries. Which require a certain skill level in a barding skill. But then, we have to choose which spell we use?

We Can't discord AND use despair on the same target? WTF if the point of having masteries? And wtf is the point of making these masteries cost mana if we can only use either despair or discord?

I can understand only being able to use one mastery at a given time, but not being able to use the mastery and the base skill at the same time seems a bit stupid imho.

I guess if this is the case, the new bard spells will be pretty useless to me as my only bard character is a disco/tamer and neither of the disco mastery abilities even remotely come close to being as useful as Disco itself.

I was hoping since the masteries cost mana to keep active, that the purpose was to be able to use the mastery spells and the base skills at the same time, as long as your mana allowed.

On my elf I made last night on TC, with 200 mana and 16MR and 40LMC, she ran out of mana in about a minute and a half while channeling despair. Also, it didn't seem to really help much, even while stacked with discord. at 120 music/disco a 32% Hit Chance reduction would seem big, stacked with a 45% DCI, but uh... yeah orcs and other little baddies still hit me 9/10 times from what I could tell.

Spell damage reduction seemed to work.

Please reconsider this;
If you are going to make bards choose between what spell to use please remove the mana use. Its a little disheartening that you even made SONGS cost mana to begin with. A bards power comes from playing his instrument/singing and so forth. Not like a mage.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

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The sky is falling, and I want to get hit!
No one is claiming the sky is falling down. We're just hoping that given how long its taken to get some bard content that the dev in charge will actually listen to the feedback given so that it doesn't suck and we end up having to wait several more years for it to be looked at.

This thread is 90% people who are unaffected or haven't tested it telling people that have tested it and will be affected to stop whining, and clouding the feedback in the meandering comments of people who don't care either way. Well some of us do care, and we've waited long enough to have our say, its not like the change the few remaining bards want would change anything for the people who think its fine as it is.
 

Lord Chaos

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Yes there is.
You're just refusing to (or otherwise incapable of) see it.
Uhm, no there aren't. Bards are already underpowered to begin with, they don't need further leashes on their abilities.

My sampire can trounce a Paragon balron, what can a bard do even with masteries? Scream bloody curses?
 

Lord Chaos

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Mages can swap slayer books. Guess what: Bards can swap slayer instruments. Mages and Bards are already even in this regard.
Except bards have to drop their current slayer on the ground, use bard ability, target the new instrument, pick up old instrument. While mages just swap books easily.
 

Martyna Zmuir

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Not to mention the ability to outdamage most casters in game for short periods or if you prefer...

Uhm.. Caster damages SUCK compared to ... well, every other combat template. And the Dev team should know this...

Take a 120 mage, 120 Eval, 100 inscrip, using a scrappers, with a suit with say 45 SDI.

Pit them against ANY combat template (who can use multiple slayers at once - weapon and tali) and perform special moves which can hit for over 200 points a shot (and since most of these warriors suites are fine tuned, they can use special moves almost indefinitely with mana leech)

The warrior will out damage the mage nearly 100% of the time.

I've plunked away at a mob doing a whopping 45 damage (using a slayer scrapper's mind you) while friends are doing 195+ a hit using enemy of one and armor ignore etc.

So before you trot out another class that can smoke mages damage potential, why don't you try balancing things?
 
M

maroite

Guest
Yes there is.
You're just refusing to (or otherwise incapable of) see it.
Well, it is a bit silly to limit the masteries and make legendary provo/disco/peace player constantly redo quests for the spells.

If we look at it like weapon skills, then its abit broken. Swordsman can pick up any sword weapon and use it at their skill. If they have the required skill to use the specials, they can use any of them on any weapon.

The same goes with any of the combat skills. You don't have to specialize into a crossbow, in order to be able to use the special crossbow attacks. Nor does using a crossbow lock you out of the other bows special attacks.

So why is it that bards have to continually repeat a quest in order to switch between their "weapons" special attacks?

I can understand only allowing one spell from any given mastery to be active at a time, but to make bards continually do quests to be able to use other masteries seems a bit silly, and doesn't fall in line with any of the other skill sets.
 
C

canary

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Uhm, no there aren't. Bards are already underpowered to begin with, they don't need further leashes on their abilities.

My sampire can trounce a Paragon balron, what can a bard do even with masteries? Scream bloody curses?
I disagree, LC, and I say that AS a bard.

I can get a greater dragons (challenging, not impossible!) to actually kill each other and I can sit back and relax. Who else can say that?
 

Logrus

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Then what it is?

So far the only reasons Logrus has posted have been that firstly it was easiest for him to code that way (thats not a good reason), and secondly an idealistic view that a pure template should be more powerful than a hybrid, which may be a apply irl but it doesn't apply to UO, where hybrids are 99% of the time more powerful than pures.

Actually to clarify:
1. I didnt say a pure template should be more powerful than a hybrid.
I said a pure mage -should- be a better mage than a necro mage.
So if you say wanted to duel, Necro Mage vs Pure mage and have it limited to MAGERY only, I believe the pure mage should have some benefits as befitting any character person or otherwise who has dedicated themselves to a single goal.

Now if that pure mage was to go toe to toe with a necro mage, with all skills open to use, then thats an altogether different thing.
Not that a Pure mage should be more powerful than a necro mage or whatever template variant. That would defeat the purpose of hybrids altogether.

2. Easier to code for me, meant that using an already tested and functioning system to achieve my end of preventing flip flopping of masteries without risking introducing a host of bugs and issues that creating a completely new mechanic may do.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

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Yeah but who actually hunts GD's apart from Tamers farming new ones?

Don't get me wrong I don't think bards are underpowered, but thats completely irrelavent, its not grounds for 8 years of no content that they 'work as they are', so did every other skill 8 years ago.

So, no not underpowered, but how many boss type stuff spawns anywhere near anything you can Provoke on it, or Peace, bards may be able to pwn 2 of high level parragons that no one gives a damn about, but when it comes to bosses that drop something they pretty much only have Discord, which is why a lot of people view them as a support class. About the only place Prov is any good against any kind of champ is the Dark Father (1 monster out of 6 in the gauntlet), and the Ilsh/Tok spawns, and thats only if you can level it in the first place with Discord/Prov on your template.
 

Lord Chaos

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I disagree, LC, and I say that AS a bard.

I can get a greater dragons (challenging, not impossible!) to actually kill each other and I can sit back and relax. Who else can say that?
Ok, you're not saying this as a bard, because that is the most redicilous statement ever. Sure you can provoke them on eachother, but you'll fail the vast majority of your attempts and while you're doing it you'll get pummeled by TWO greater dragons, you'll just be one dead bard.

And the mean time my Sampire can trounce both Greater Dragons with little trouble.
 
C

canary

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Ok, you're not saying this as a bard, because that is the most redicilous statement ever. Sure you can provoke them on eachother, but you'll fail the vast majority of your attempts and while you're doing it you'll get pummeled by TWO greater dragons, you'll just be one dead bard.

And the mean time my Sampire can trounce both Greater Dragons with little trouble.
Uhm, I'm telling you YES... I am saying this as a bard. Others who are on these forums who know me will attest that, yes, I play a bard.

You play your Sampire then and enjoy it. I will enjoy the new tweak to my profession, Bardic Mastery, and play just as happy.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
Actually to clarify:
1. I didnt say a pure template should be more powerful than a hybrid.
I said a pure mage -should- be a better mage than a necro mage.
So if you say wanted to duel, Necro Mage vs Pure mage and have it limited to MAGERY only, I believe the pure mage should have some benefits as befitting any character person or otherwise who has dedicated themselves to a single goal.

Now if that pure mage was to go toe to toe with a necro mage, with all skills open to use, then thats an altogether different thing.
Not that a Pure mage should be more powerful than a necro mage or whatever template variant. That would defeat the purpose of hybrids altogether.
Thats fine. That may be what you said but when you're using it as a point of reference its implied you think the same reason applies for the topic your referring it for. If thats not the case then why are you talking about Mages? and what is the reason bards that are entitled for 2+ masteries need to retake the quest each time? They can still only cast one at a time but don't need to leave a fight to do so. What does it hurt if it was that way?

2. Easier to code for me, meant that using an already tested and functioning system to achieve my end of preventing flip flopping of masteries without risking introducing a host of bugs and issues that creating a completely new mechanic may do.
Again, thats fine, but... we just want to know a reason why its necessary to take us out of a fight for something so trivial, and it seems like the only responses we're getting are things that don't address the question in any practical or relavent kind of way.
 
M

maroite

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I personally, am fine with making a choice between masteries, but it may be a bit biased of me because I only have a disco bard. :p

That being said, I am NOT fine with having to make a choice between masteries AND having to choose which spell I want active at any given time after making my mastery choice.

Mages who cast Paralyze fields are not limited to casting them. They can cast Energy Fields, or poison fields as well.

So why can a disco bard not use disco AND despair?

Seems to me that disco is based on playing my instrument, and despair is a spell which requires a mana upkeep. Thus despair is not indefinite.

I realize that this could lead to imbalance, but throw bards a bone. Giving us masteries, making us choose between masteries ON TOP of having to choose between which skill/spell we use within the masteries seems a bit much.

It could lead to balancing problems, but from what I could tell, the mana cost of despair was way too much to keep it up 100% of the time. Especially on larger boss fights.
 

RaDian FlGith

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Uhm, no there aren't. Bards are already underpowered to begin with, they don't need further leashes on their abilities.
Bards are not underpowered. I'm not sure where this fallacy comes from.

And there aren't any leases on NEW abilities. You simply have to choose which new ability you want.

My sampire can trounce a Paragon balron, what can a bard do even with masteries? Scream bloody curses?
I'm confused... so you think a bard should be able to walk up and beat a Paragon to death with its instrument?

Different combinations have different strengths.

Why does something new have to be all or nothing?
 

Lord Chaos

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Bards are not underpowered.
lol, what a joke.

I'm confused... so you think a bard should be able to walk up and beat a Paragon to death with its instrument?
Ah no, you should use your bard skills on it...oh wait, they will fail the vast majority of the time, while it beats you to a bloody pulp.
 

yars

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its not about all of nothing, its the difference between buying someone dinner and throwing them scraps.
its about balance

bards have been looked at as a support skill for awhile now, with the new expansion and the numerous "high end" mobs, it s only fitting to give the class something to keep up with.
id would be happy if they gave us something simple like:

lrc applies to firehorns
fc/fcr reduces skill timer

the new idea forces other skills into the equation, now we need med cause our mana is low?
when i play my guitar i can go for hours, that requires stamina, not mana
 
U

uoBuoY

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Suggestion: A mastery's power/duration increases with each Bard skill. Provo only = lowest. Provo, Peace & Disco = highest.

Suggestion: Highest power/duration at 120 in all (4) Bard skills.

Prediction/Question: So a party of 3 Bard/Tamers (1 for each mastery) will dominate anything/anyone in UO?

Question: Are masteries affected by the quality of the Bard instrument?
 

Viper09

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Ok people. Zoo closed. No more feeding the trolls. Clearly it has it's own opinion and will just keep arguing. Bards already know how bard skills work and that's good enough.

 
L

Luke Carjacker

Guest
Actually to clarify:
1. I didnt say a pure template should be more powerful than a hybrid.
I said a pure mage -should- be a better mage than a necro mage.
So if you say wanted to duel, Necro Mage vs Pure mage and have it limited to MAGERY only, I believe the pure mage should have some benefits as befitting any character person or otherwise who has dedicated themselves to a single goal.

Now if that pure mage was to go toe to toe with a necro mage, with all skills open to use, then thats an altogether different thing.
Not that a Pure mage should be more powerful than a necro mage or whatever template variant. That would defeat the purpose of hybrids altogether.
But you're not dealing with realities of the game here. Your BELIEF that a pure mage should be a better mage than a hybrid mage is patently false within the rules of the game. A necro mage or mystic mage or SW game or warrior mage is every bit as good a mage as plain old mage.

This is what people are trying to point out to you. If I decide to add SW or Mystic to my mage template, the game does not force me to give up any benefits of being just a mage. Why treat bards differently, and only with regard to other bard skills? I can get full benefits if I choose only provoke OR discord & music and slap on magery, or necromancy, or taming, or whatever; but if I decide to have provoke AND discord, I gotta have a penalty? For the love of god why?
 
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Lord GOD(GOD)

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Still waiting to hear this 'good' reason.

Or is that it now? Case closed, I honestly don't know why you bother with TC, we test it and regardless of the outcome it goes in as it is. Why not just put it in to start with and save everyones time.
 

gortman

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This may have been mentioned already (only skimmed some of the previous posts), but if the developers are concerned with bards being able to instantly switch between the song masteries, why not just have a "switching cooldown timer" instead of making bards re-do the quests every time? So instead of the drudgery of redoing the quest, the player just has to wait a couple of minutes before they can switch from one song mastery spellset to another.
 

Hildebrand

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Bards didn't even get a new player quest in New Haven? With a nice little blessed newbie reward? Really Devs?
 
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Ransom_of_BiC

Guest
This may have been mentioned already (only skimmed some of the previous posts), but if the developers are concerned with bards being able to instantly switch between the song masteries, why not just have a "switching cooldown timer" instead of making bards re-do the quests every time? So instead of the drudgery of redoing the quest, the player just has to wait a couple of minutes before they can switch from one song mastery spellset to another.
A few minutes sounds reasonable. Even if it was 15 minutes or so.
 

yars

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uhm, so we get yet another timer?
cmon that sounds like settling. we shouldn't have to wait for any timers period.
quests shouldnt have to be repeated, unless you drop the skill, or have a new character.
do you have to repeat the spellweaving quest? no
 
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Luke Carjacker

Guest
A few minutes sounds reasonable. Even if it was 15 minutes or so.
I think a cool down timer is ok and I want to be reasonable, but I have a specific reason why I think bards should be allowed to switch between masteries (just using one at time). I'm really tired of my bards being sitting ducks when we get raided at a champ spawn. If I'm on my abc archer I can switch from fighting spawn to fighting raiders instantly without penalties. Same if I'm on my necro mage or mystic mage. If I'm on a tamer I can at least sic my GD on attackers and they don't like that too much.

Sure, I understand that some templates are not optimal for both PvM & PvP, and bard has always been a PvM skill but why must bards be punished uniquely in this regard? Discord doesn't work on PvP, provoke doesn't work in PvP, and now you can't use a mastery that you qualify for until you run of and re-do some silly quest? Yeah that's gonna be super helpful if the situation changes on you in an instant :( .

Seems like the developers are intent on pigeon-holing bards into a specific "ideal" they have for the class. Someone who is very helpful in fixed situations when hunting as a group, either to buff the party or debuff a boss. But these things are really only going to be effective in specific instances where big parties can stand around and fight one big target for an extended period of time. I mean, I can definitely see how it would be great for most peerless encounters, but other places do not have such fixed parameters. No other skill is boxed in like this; in fact they go to great lengths to make sure other skills are not so limited.
 
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Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
Seems like the developers are intent on pigeon-holing bards into a specific "ideal" they have for the class.
Agreed.

I wouldn't be against a switching mastery timer, I think thats a good compromise, though I'm not sure what we're exactly compromising with (or why its us doing it) as they've still not come up with any valid reason for it in the first place.
 
B

Beastmaster

Guest
Not to mention Logrus hasn't acknowledged the disappearing corpses bug. I REALLY REALLY hope that make it into production. When it does I'm going to become a super griefer as I blaze my way out of this gerbil trail.
 
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Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
3: Abilities: The abilities are meant to be situationally(my word) useful.
They are a good buff for the bard themselves.
  • Paladin abilities can now interrupt Bard abilities
There are now no spells that can be cast while any of these effects are in place.
Two of the effects are SDI & Casting Focus, properties that only apply to casted spells, yet apparently "They are a good buff for the bard themselves."... no, they're not, we're back to those properties only being useful if the bard is there to sit in the corner and buff a party.
 

bioras

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I was thrilled when I heard there were changes to barding. When I read them...all I could think was great...another reason for a group to use and toss a bard. Most changes involve a group. The changes are great for the OTHER people in the group. Just the way they are now. Discord benefits everyone, yet the bard gets no credit. And of course the pure bard is at a disadvantage.We all know it takes nearly 500 points to be a pure bard. I have no problem with that if we were given credit for discord or at least a timer reduction.
You made bards more powerful for OTHER people. Thanks.
 

puni666

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1 mastery is better then the traditional nothing you were getting in the first place... stop whining and figure out which one you want.
 
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Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
1 mastery is better then the traditional nothing you were getting in the first place... stop whining and figure out which one you want.
No. People who have bards speak up, drown out the trolls of the unaffected and have your say, you may not get another.
 
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Luke Carjacker

Guest
1 mastery is better then the traditional nothing you were getting in the first place... stop whining and figure out which one you want.
Yes, and being locked in jail for 20 years for a crime you didn't commit is better than being executed for a crime you didn't commit, but I wouldn't recommend either.

The developers are listening, and Logrus posted a list of changes being considered in the bard forum.
 
K

Kiminality

Guest
1 mastery is better then the traditional nothing you were getting in the first place... stop whining and figure out which one you want.
No. People who have bards speak up, drown out the trolls of the unaffected and have your say, you may not get another.
I have a bard, and I disagree with you. So don't go assuming you speak for anything more than a subset of bard players.
I therefore submit that you dwell under a bridge.

Yes, and being locked in jail for 20 years for a crime you didn't commit is better than being executed for a crime you didn't commit, but I wouldn't recommend either.
The two are hardly comparable.
But, I guess straw men need love like everything else.
 

yars

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I have a bard, and I disagree with you. So don't go assuming you speak for anything more than a subset of bard players.
I therefore submit that you dwell under a bridge.

The two are hardly comparable.
But, I guess straw men need love like everything else.
yeah we dont like getting burned either
 
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Kiminality

Guest
Well, it's a good job you're not getting burned, then, isn't it.
 

GarthGrey

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Don't you have a Stratics Alt that wasn't so bitter all the time? Or is that the pointinality of THIS one?