You don't own anything.

[Ralco]

Just wanted to post a little information that seems to be forgotten lately.

You don't own anything in game. You don't own your characters, your items, or anything. You signed a binding legal contract agreeing to this. This is not my opinion. This is is not EA's opinion. This is the opinion of the 7th Circuit Court (ProCD v Zeidenberg) reinforced by the 8th Circuit Court (Blizzard v Jung et al; also known as blizzard v bnetd).

Please review: http://www.uo.com/agreement.html
Specificially 5. Rights and Responsibilities.

"c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game
play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com."

This section later goes on to state that even things you create in game EA may do what ever it wants with.

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing. You have no rights. If the game rules allow it then there's no foul. Please remember this and act accordingly as you enjoy this wonderful game.

 

[ChReuter]

and what brought this post on?

 

[o2bavr6]

So technically I guess anyone who sells items for real world cash, EA owns and has the right to ask for

 

[Nexus]

Just wanted to post a little information that seems to be forgotten lately.

You don't own anything in game. You don't own your characters, your items, or anything. You signed a binding legal contract agreeing to this. This is not my opinion. This is is not EA's opinion. This is the opinion of the 7th Circuit Court (ProCD v Zeidenberg) reinforced by the 8th Circuit Court (Blizzard v Jung et al; also known as blizzard v bnetd).

Please review: http://www.uo.com/agreement.html
Specificially 5. Rights and Responsibilities.

"c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game
play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com."

This section later goes on to state that even things you create in game EA may do what ever it wants with.

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing. You have no rights. If the game rules allow it then there's no foul. Please remember this and act accordingly as you enjoy this wonderful game.

Bragg vs Linden Labs changed the game, its a newer case than those. Basically made ToS contracts that are one sided like EA's and most of the companies non-binding by defining them as contracts of adhesion.

 

[Ralco]

Bragg vs Linden Labs changed the game, its a newer case than those. Basically made ToS contracts that are one sided like EA's and most of the companies non-binding by defining them as contracts of adhesion.

That's impossible. Bragg v Linden Labs et al settled out of court.

 

[the 4th man]

So technically I guess anyone who sells items for real world cash, EA owns and has the right to ask for

Dude, if you pay real life cash for pixels, outside of your subscription, most normal people would say, grow up.

EA doesn't give a hoot if you think you own your pixels or not. They have showed this by allowing a series of free shards that have stolen their artwork.

later

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Just wanted to post a little information that seems to be forgotten lately.

You don't own anything in game. You don't own your characters, your items, or anything. You signed a binding legal contract agreeing to this. This is not my opinion. This is is not EA's opinion. This is the opinion of the 7th Circuit Court (ProCD v Zeidenberg) reinforced by the 8th Circuit Court (Blizzard v Jung et al; also known as blizzard v bnetd).

Please review: http://www.uo.com/agreement.html
Specificially 5. Rights and Responsibilities.

"c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game
play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com."

This section later goes on to state that even things you create in game EA may do what ever it wants with.

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing. You have no rights. If the game rules allow it then there's no foul. Please remember this and act accordingly as you enjoy this wonderful game.

IRL you really dont own anything either. You are allowed to live there, allowed to work at your job, and allowed to travel home when you are done. You are not allowed to leave the country without permission, you are not allowed to do anything which would violate any laws put forth to chain you to your position in society, you are not allowed ownership of copyrighted material.

So...just what is the point you are trying to make here?

btw...have a good look at my legit thread...censored and locked. why? because it did not fit into the confines of this forum. it was deemed too far to the left to be considered allowable by the controlling body. so....this forum imitates RL...censorship is our friend!

*mumbles incoherently and walks away from thread*

 

[Beer_Cayse]

I think you will find that in legalese, you give implied consent to ToS each time you log into the game. Implied consent to follow the rules, etc. That also means (IMO) implied consent that they own it all anyway. However, one part that a lot of folks moaned about at one point:

Terms of Service

5. Rights and Responsibilities.
...

(f) Privacy. You understand that you have no expectation of privacy regarding the communications you make on the Service, and that all communications made by or received from you may be monitored by Electronic Arts representatives. You hereby consent to the extraction of hardware system profile data and any data related to operation of the Software through the Service from any computer that logs on to the Service using your Account.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I think you will find that in legalese, you give implied consent to ToS each time you log into the game. Implied consent to follow the rules, etc. That also means (IMO) implied consent that they own it all anyway. However, some salient parts of ToS for your enjoyment:

Terms of Service

5. Rights and Responsibilities.
...

(c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of Electronic Arts. ...

(f) Privacy. You understand that you have no expectation of privacy regarding the communications you make on the Service, and that all communications made by or received from you may be monitored by Electronic Arts representatives. You hereby consent to the extraction of hardware system profile data and any data related to operation of the Software through the Service from any computer that logs on to the Service using your Account.

Show me someplace in the RoC which states that the sale of gold for RL money is against the rules.

Bah! you...you...you...stealth editor!

 

[Nexus]

That's impossible. Bragg v Linden Labs et al settled out of court.

After the judge ruled that contracts were invalid. It sets precedence.

 

[Ralco]

After the judge ruled that contracts were invalid. It sets precedence.

Pacer please.

 

[Ralco]

After the judge ruled that contracts were invalid. It sets precedence.

That's a stretch.

First The TOS as a whole was never rendered invalid. The judge was only dealing with the arbitration. The judge even states that parts do not make the whole wrong.

Second Even if we stipulate that your position is correct the case doesn't matter. It's a district court. There are multiple circuit court rulings that contradict.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Show me someplace in the RoC which states that the sale of gold for RL money is against the rules.

Bah! you...you...you...stealth editor!

ULTIMA ONLINE SERVICE RULES OF CONDUCT

8.With the exception of the sale of in-game items for in-game items or services, you may not market, promote or advertise anything, or make any other form of solicitation (including pyramid schemes and chain letters) through the Ultima Online service or Ultima Online web site.

If they allowed selling for real money then you would be able to advertise in game. Use some common sense.

 

[Ralco]

BTW...I love it when people pull out their alts! Wonderful times!

What exactly are you talking about?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

What exactly are you talking about?

wut? wut are YOU talking about? rolleyes:

 

[G.v.P]

and what brought this post on?

I'll say Fight Club, by Chuck Palahniuk.

 

[Lord Frodo]

That's impossible. Bragg v Linden Labs et al settled out of court.

After the judge ruled that contracts were invalid. It sets precedence.

1st it was a civil suit.
2nd No real money was used in this. He found a way to buy virtual land in game cheaper.
3rd This is a Penn. state case and you would need to find a federal suit or a Calif suit to hold any water.

12. Choice of Law.
This section provides that the Law of California, USA applies to this Agreement.

This Agreement is governed by and construed under California law as such law applies to agreements between California residents entered into and to be performed entirely within California. All notices given by you or required under this Agreement shall be in writing and addressed to EA at 209 Redwood Shores Pkwy, Redwood City, California 94065, or faxed to (650) 628-1360, Attn.: Ultima Online Account Administration, or emailed to [email protected].

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

ULTIMA ONLINE SERVICE RULES OF CONDUCT

8.With the exception of the sale of in-game items for in-game items or services, you may not market, promote or advertise anything, or make any other form of solicitation (including pyramid schemes and chain letters) through the Ultima Online service or Ultima Online web site.

If they allowed selling for real money then you would be able to advertise in game. Use some common sense.

What solicitation or marketing are you doing within the game? where in game is the promotion or advertisement? solicitation in game? please tell me how it is physically possible to exchange gold for real life money within the confines of UO. Common sense would dictate that all is well outside the confines of the game or website itself. I mean...several brokering sites ought to know?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I'll say Fight Club, by Chuck Palahniuk.

 

[Lord Frodo]

What solicitation or marketing are you doing within the game? where in game is the promotion or advertisement? solicitation in game? please tell me how it is physically possible to exchange gold for real life money within the confines of UO. Common sense would dictate that all is well outside the confines of the game or website itself. I mean...several brokering sites ought to know?

And what part of they are not allowed to advertise in game don't you understand.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

And what part of they are not allowed to advertise in game don't you understand.

*scratches head*

when did advertising in game have anything to do with the equation?

 

[Lord Frodo]

*scratches head*

when did advertising in game have anything to do with the equation?

Show me someplace in the RoC which states that the sale of gold for RL money is against the rules.

You forget you asked this question. UO does not condone the sell of UO gold for real cash or they would let you openly advertise it in game.

 

[Lord Chaos]

And what part of they are not allowed to advertise in game don't you understand.

You're not allowed to advertise anything in the game...there was a big stink years ago over players being banned for advertising Stratics.

On another note, the TOS is not legally binding here.

 

[Ralco]

You forget you asked this question. UO does not condone the sell of UO gold for real cash or they would let you openly advertise it in game.

Your position is logicly invalid. It's based on the assumtion that to be legal to sell something it must be legal to advertise said thing. The basis is false so the conclusion is false.

 

[Kellgory]

Reps from EA/UO have been on record several times in the past stating that selling gold and items for cash isn't against the rules. There are some online games that forbid the selling of items for cash and they're have a wonderful time trying to enforce that rule. If you want to buy items for cash, then in the past all you needed to do was go to Ebay, but now you can either Google it or ask a guildmate in teamspeak or vent.

The rule about not marketing/soliciting ingame is to keep people from turning UO into their personal commercial. Without that rule, we would have 20 people standing in Luna spamming "visit WW.....dot com for (insert item or service)", and houses would have rooftops looking like billboards. I nor just about anyone else would like to see that.

As far as not really owning anything in UO...damn I was planning on playing and paying for the game until they shut down and then I was expecting the mail man to deliver a moving crate full of all my stuff to my house.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

That's fine, I do not own the artwork, thus I cannot use the digital artwork used in UO to make my own profit without permission, liscencing, etc from EA.

As for "selling" ingame items, the "ownership" so to speak is no different regardless of how the ingame item is "sold"... regardless if it's for ingame or out of game money, the item still remains in EA's "possession", in fact if you want to get technical, people can simply call it an "ingame transfer fee".

As long as the advertisement is not made ingame, there's nothing else the game sees that isn't already perfectly legal (player A giving Item X to player B).

As long as the item in question has been legally obtained ingame, it's really only the business of the two players involved in the transaction as to how that item is traded between those two players.

Going after the RMT sellers is a cop-out for being unwilling or unable to get rid of the actual PROBLEM in the game, that being cheating, exploiting, duping, etc.

And no, I'm not an RMT seller or buyer. I don't buy because I don't want to spend my money on virtual items I can already get ingame, and I don't sell because I did the math and it comes out to a mere fraction of the minimum wage for me to do so (income compared to time invested). However, I have no problem with RMT in MMOG assuming that everything is obtained legitimately.

Edit: And yes, RMT sales in UO have ALWAYS been legal, but neither condemned nor condoned, nor supported in any way.

 

[phantus]

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing.

Incorrect. I own 10+ years of memories and dozens of friendships.

Was I expecting anything more? Was I supposed to?

 

[RawHeadRex]

Just wanted to post a little information that seems to be forgotten lately.

You don't own anything in game. You don't own your characters, your items, or anything. You signed a binding legal contract agreeing to this. This is not my opinion. This is is not EA's opinion. This is the opinion of the 7th Circuit Court (ProCD v Zeidenberg) reinforced by the 8th Circuit Court (Blizzard v Jung et al; also known as blizzard v bnetd).

Please review: http://www.uo.com/agreement.html
Specificially 5. Rights and Responsibilities.

"c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game
play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com."

This section later goes on to state that even things you create in game EA may do what ever it wants with.

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing. You have no rights. If the game rules allow it then there's no foul. Please remember this and act accordingly as you enjoy this wonderful game.

thanks thief

 

[Skaith]

Dude This was a very stupid post get a life

 

[MalagAste]

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing.

Incorrect. I own 10+ years of memories and dozens of friendships.

Was I expecting anything more? Was I supposed to?

Exactly!

 

[maroite]

Sum this up for you all;

Ralco stole something from someone in game. Victim complained and mentioned something about owning it. Ralco responds with lame forum post which states how you don't own anything in game.

On a side note, depending on how said item was stolen, it could be reported as exploitation and Ralco could get his account banned. (See: EA Owning your account. No pun intended.)

Lastly, EA does not allow the auction of in game items and/or money IN game or on THEIR website. The parts of the ToS that were listed said nothing about having a 3rd party site that sells items/money for real cash.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

I have a house and stuff in the bank. It's mine I tell you........It's all mine ...mine.....mine.....

 

[AesSedai]

- Kallie Pigeon I must say, once again... I like your style

As well, Dermott's post is assuredly and confirmedly (by UO employees, many times throughout the history) correct in most all regards to the completely legal exchange of UO items; and I could copy/paste it as if I wrote it myself because I share the same stance as he does on this subject... especially my thoughts towards the portion covered by the phrase: 'going after the RMT sellers is a cop-out...', because that is simply the entire truth in that matter, in my opinion (I hope you read this Mr. Mark Jacobs & others with a similar position ).

Therefore, and truly, we do own something: the time it took to legitimately acquire 'things' in-game.
We certainly do 'own' many things in UO.
We did not make UO, we are not EA the owners that routinely receive USD for UO,
but our ownership and investment in UO is what keeps it going after all of this time (along with our UO Dev crew, of course).

 

[Uvtha]

Bragg vs Linden Labs changed the game, its a newer case than those. Basically made ToS contracts that are one sided like EA's and most of the companies non-binding by defining them as contracts of adhesion.

Haha... I always wondered what would happen when UO shut down. I always thought it would be neat if you could still run it off line with a copy of the current code somehow, so every now and then you could log in and go kill some ogre lords for kicks.

 

[Nh'bdy]

I like to play fantasy role playing games in my spare time.

 

[Fink]

Another thing worth remembering is you don't 'earn' anything either.

 

[Evlar]

Lastly, EA does not allow the auction of in game items and/or money IN game or on THEIR website. The parts of the ToS that were listed said nothing about having a 3rd party site that sells items/money for real cash.

So in effect, anyone that's participated in one of the many in-game auctions, be they buyers, sellers, auctioneers, assistants, etc... is breaking the rules and this isn't meant to be allowed in the game?

Or are you simply suggesting that this sort of activity, when it concerns real cash values, is illegal in game?

I'm confused....

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Clearly they are talking about advertising for cold cash.

Which is laaaame, but however laaaamer is people who sell stuff for real USD cash !

What a shaaaaame. None of those will ever enter the garden.

This is MY door and I OWN it cause I built it myself.

 

[Babble]

f) By reading this you agreed that your immortal sould now belongs to EA

Actually a gaming magazine put such a sentence in their tos for 1 April and lots of people signed it off.




Source: http://www.news.com.au/technology/g...-sale-conditions/story-e6frfro0-1225854448399

 

[Stigmatas]

Your right, I don't own.


I WtFPwn.

 

[o2bavr6]

Dude, if you pay real life cash for pixels, outside of your subscription, most normal people would say, grow up.

EA doesn't give a hoot if you think you own your pixels or not. They have showed this by allowing a series of free shards that have stolen their artwork.

later

I was being facetious

 

[o2bavr6]

As far as not really owning anything in UO...damn I was planning on playing and paying for the game until they shut down and then I was expecting the mail man to deliver a moving crate full of all my stuff to my house.

 

[Ralco]

Sum this up for you all;

Ralco stole something from someone in game. Victim complained and mentioned something about owning it. Ralco responds with lame forum post which states how you don't own anything in game.

On a side note, depending on how said item was stolen, it could be reported as exploitation and Ralco could get his account banned. (See: EA Owning your account. No pun intended.)

Lastly, EA does not allow the auction of in game items and/or money IN game or on THEIR website. The parts of the ToS that were listed said nothing about having a 3rd party site that sells items/money for real cash.

Mainly the point of the post was directed at the idiots in that other thread who advocated calling the cops. I wanted to point out how nonsensical the whole situation was.

To those of you making personal attacks. Please stay on topics. No one wants to hear your childish, and completely incorrect, rants.

 

[Ralco]

So in effect, anyone that's participated in one of the many in-game auctions, be they buyers, sellers, auctioneers, assistants, etc... is breaking the rules and this isn't meant to be allowed in the game?

Or are you simply suggesting that this sort of activity, when it concerns real cash values, is illegal in game?

I'm confused....

That's simply moronic. Your position has no basis. Please reread the contract.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Mainly the point of the post was directed at the idiots in that other thread who advocated calling the cops. I wanted to point out how nonsensical the whole situation was.

To those of you making personal attacks. Please stay on topics. No one wants to hear your childish, and completely incorrect, rants.

Did you pull the cobwebs from this user ID to support the actions of people who have done wrong in the game? Seems rather fishy to me...rolleyes:

 

[Ralco]

Did you pull the cobwebs from this user ID to support the actions of people who have done wrong in the game? Seems rather fishy to me...rolleyes:

Please show me where I support the actions of people who have done wrong in game.

In short I dusted this off to say people who say call the cops are idiots. But I didn't want to directly reference something that the mods said not to talk about.

 

[Evlar]

So in effect, anyone that's participated in one of the many in-game auctions, be they buyers, sellers, auctioneers, assistants, etc... is breaking the rules and this isn't meant to be allowed in the game?

Or are you simply suggesting that this sort of activity, when it concerns real cash values, is illegal in game?

I'm confused....

That's simply moronic. Your position has no basis. Please reread the contract.

I was simply asking a question regarding interpretation of in-game activity and its legitimacy within the terms of service contract, hence the customary question mark, at the end of each sentence. This was given someone else (not you...) posted a quoted section of the ToS, which could be interpreted as suggesting such activity might be against the rules.

Given the nature of your response however, well done... YOU'RE A WINNER!

Your prize is a...

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Please show me where I support the actions of people who have done wrong in game.

In short I dusted this off to say people who say call the cops are idiots. But I didn't want to directly reference something that the mods said not to talk about.

So...if you just dusted off that alt...who are you really?

 

[gjohnson5]

Just wanted to post a little information that seems to be forgotten lately.

You don't own anything in game. You don't own your characters, your items, or anything. You signed a binding legal contract agreeing to this. This is not my opinion. This is is not EA's opinion. This is the opinion of the 7th Circuit Court (ProCD v Zeidenberg) reinforced by the 8th Circuit Court (Blizzard v Jung et al; also known as blizzard v bnetd).

Please review: http://www.uo.com/agreement.html
Specificially 5. Rights and Responsibilities.

"c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game
play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of EA.com."

This section later goes on to state that even things you create in game EA may do what ever it wants with.

This is a game. This is not the real world. You own nothing. You have no rights. If the game rules allow it then there's no foul. Please remember this and act accordingly as you enjoy this wonderful game.

Is the court going to start paying my UO account fees?

 

[Ralco]

So...if you just dusted off that alt...who are you really?

Never said I dusted off the alt. My main has the same name. Not that it matters in a game with no unique identities.