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WW Training

XeneX

Adventurer
I am a bit paranoid about training this guy. He's very old. I can't recall exactly when I tamed him, but after not playing for 15 years I've likely had him for 18+. He was the only WW I kept from back then.

I trained him up on the TC, but I have to say I'm underwhelmed with his performance. I've done this same build on a fire steed on my prod shard, and with a PP mare on TC, and have been quite pleased with the results, but I guess I expected the WW to outperform them. In general he seems to be on par with most of my other pets @ 5 slots (rune beetle, fire steed, mare, dragon, GD). Perhaps it's my expectations, there seems to be a lot of hype around these guys being overcapped for their control slots, but maybe it's just not as significant as the hype would lead on.

This is the training I did on TC:

Starting stats:


3=>4 training plan


4=>5 training plan


Final stats


Any advice is appreciated! I'm not going to train him off TC until I feel good about it.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I trained him up on the TC, but I have to say I'm underwhelmed with his performance.
His chiv is 40... Dont judge by that. It will do more damage than the others you mentioned when its over 100.

The strength is near max. Wait for one of the Ks to advise on Stam regen for the flappy. You want the perfect build since you can not get another.

@Khaelor
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
That WW is a Beast. Only thing I don't like about him is that 85% cold resist, other than that he's awesome. Once you scroll him and, like Pawain said, get his Chiv up, he'll be a power house.
 

XeneX

Adventurer
I thought of that, but I'm mostly comparing him to a mare and steed that were also specced chiv/ai (chiv @ ~40) with no scrolls yet, and it just felt like he was average against them. If I get a lot of feedback that this is a good way to go I may just do it, but as I said, I'm paranoid.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I thought of that, but I'm mostly comparing him to a mare and steed that were also specced chiv/ai (chiv @ ~40) with no scrolls yet, and it just felt like he was average against them. If I get a lot of feedback that this is a good way to go I may just do it, but as I said, I'm paranoid.
Once he's skilled up he'll be better than a mare or steed because he has higher strength and no dragon breath. Only downside is he's not rideable like they are.
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I am a bit paranoid about training this guy. He's very old. I can't recall exactly when I tamed him, but after not playing for 15 years I've likely had him for 18+. He was the only WW I kept from back then.


3=>4 training plan


4=>5 training plan



Any advice is appreciated! I'm not going to train him off TC until I feel good about it.
1. Does he eat gold?

2. Am I reading that right, you are putting magery/eval scrolls on him? If so don't do that. But you do want a Chiv scroll.

3. Comparing a Fire Steed, Nightmare and White Wyrm is difficult, they all have different damage profiles. They will excel fighting different things. One of the things about the wyrm that is nice is it doesnt have dragon breath, so it's not wasting it's mana on that. On a zero resist target, a white wyrm will always do more damage.

4. Level your chiv on all your animals, you won't regret it. Seriously. (not saying to put chiv on all your animals, but the animals with chiv, make sure to level it)
 
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Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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@XeneX The magery will go away when you add chivalry. Thats why they are saying do not add those scrolls. You have 501 points used on Chiv in the planner. 120 the Chiv.
 

XeneX

Adventurer
2. Am I reading that right, you are putting magery/eval scrolls on him? If so don't do that. But you do want a Chiv scroll.
No, sorry! I meant to make a note on that. I put the Magery scroll there as a placeholder for the chiv scroll, since I couldn't put a chiv scroll on the plan prior to actually training it in chiv.

On Eval, that's a good question, I had assumed that eval made a difference, if it doesn't I'll skip that scroll, maybe put the excess into int or mana (can't recall what was capped at that point).

Perhaps my results had to do with what I was testing it on. I usually test pet builds by killing Balron for an hour or so, then I kill a few Allosaurus. I try to keep this routine consistent so the comparisons aren't too tainted.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
No, sorry! I meant to make a note on that. I put the Magery scroll there as a placeholder for the chiv scroll, since I couldn't put a chiv scroll on the plan prior to actually training it in chiv.

On Eval, that's a good question, I had assumed that eval made a difference, if it doesn't I'll skip that scroll, maybe put the excess into int or mana (can't recall what was capped at that point).

Perhaps my results had to do with what I was testing it on. I usually test pet builds by killing Balron for an hour or so, then I kill a few Allosaurus. I try to keep this routine consistent so the comparisons aren't too tainted.
No eval scroll. Chivalry will overwrite both magery and eval int. WW won't use those skills any more after you add chiv.

Because of the overcapped STR you will not be able to add any more INT, but you can put it into mana if you want.
 

celticus

Crazed Zealot
UNLEASHED
What is the difference if he eats gold? I got one that does that. Anything special with the gold eaters? Thanks..
 

Mordha

Seasoned Veteran
What is the difference if he eats gold? I got one that does that. Anything special with the gold eaters? Thanks..
It seems to be more the ones that do not eat gold that are special. Even the ones that spawn now eat gold. I have 3 old WWs, 2 I tamed myself long time back when I first got to GM tamer. I believe I did that around 1999
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I thought of that, but I'm mostly comparing him to a mare and steed that were also specced chiv/ai (chiv @ ~40) with no scrolls yet, and it just felt like he was average against them. If I get a lot of feedback that this is a good way to go I may just do it, but as I said, I'm paranoid.
Chiv/AI Pre-Patch WW should far out damage any Mare or Fire Steed, assuming appropriate Resists on foe. Not only is the STR overcapped, but WWs also don't have any wasted ability slots. They don't waste time/mana on Dragon Breath, which means they'll spam the hell out of AI.

What is the difference if he eats gold? I got one that does that. Anything special with the gold eaters? Thanks..
Younger WWs will eat gold. There's now 4 generations of WW in game.
1. Ancient White Wyrms. These WWs were tamed in 1998 when The Second Age was launched. Not only do they not eat gold, but they also have a different sound when accepting commands (they loudly roar instead of grunt). The only ancient White Wyrm left in game that i know of, is my Hades on Napa Valley. I tamed him within the first week of T2A launching.
2. Legacy White Wyrms. These were tamed around 1999-2002, and also refuse to eat gold. They do not have the roar sound of the Ancients. This is likely what XeneX has.
3. Pre-Patch White Wyrms. These were tamed any time past 2002, and prior to Pub 97. They eat gold, and can have up to 760 STR.
4. Revamp White Wyrms. These were tamed after Pub 97 launched. They eat gold, and spawn with much lower STR than the previous 3 generations.
 
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XeneX

Adventurer
1. Ancient White Wyrms. These WWs were tamed in 1998 when The Second Age was launched. Not only do they not eat gold, but they also have a different sound when accepting commands (they loudly roar instead of grunt). The only ancient White Wyrm left in game that i know of, is my Hades on Napa Valley. I tamed him within the first week of T2A launching.
2. Legacy White Wyrms. These were tamed around 1999-2002, and also refuse to eat gold. They do not have the roar sound of the Ancients. This is likely what XeneX has.
Is there a way to distinguish the two, like a recording of the different grunting I could compare with? I played from launch through T2A but can't really recall how long I played T2A before I left, or when in that span I actually would have tamed him. I just reactivated ~a month ago. I'd love to be able to date when I might have tamed him.

PS: I'm on napa as well, you still playing there?
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
1. Ancient White Wyrms. These WWs were tamed in 1998 when The Second Age was launched. Not only do they not eat gold, but they also have a different sound when accepting commands (they loudly roar instead of grunt). The only ancient White Wyrm left in game that i know of, is my Hades on Napa Valley. I tamed him within the first week of T2A launching..
I have one on Chesapeake (maybe you remember us talking about this before). Your dates for your "ancients" and "legacies" transitions appear to be a bit off. Nightmares had a similar transition.

Because pet bonding wasn't introduced until publish 16, keeping old pets alive wasn't exactly easy back in the days. That combined with the stable limits of publish 16 probably greatly contributed to why so few are around these days of any nongold eating wyrms.


Is there a way to distinguish the two, like a recording of the different grunting I could compare with? I played from launch through T2A but can't really recall how long I played T2A before I left, or when in that span I actually would have tamed him. I just reactivated ~a month ago. I'd love to be able to date when I might have tamed him.
The what our guild calls Heirlooms White Wyrms are hued in a different fashion than anything after them. The easiest way to tell is using the EC client. The Heirloom/"Ancient" is on the left.

 

XeneX

Adventurer
The easiest way to tell is using the EC client. The Heirloom/"Ancient" is on the left.
Awesome, thanks for the info! So mine in EC looks more like the one on the right with more blue shading. 1999-2000 is likely right, if I were to guess I would say I stopped playing around '99-'00. My memory is that prior to some patch I would roll with ~5 dragons and just replace the dead. It's likely I didn't get the WW until they changed control slots to limit the active high level pets. I have a Mare as well that I think is from about the same time period, but may have been a little earlier since I usually didn't use them to fight. Haven't trained that one yet either.

I did start training the WW last night, did the 3=>4 round. Mulling over doing the 4=>5 round tonight. Wish I could find pet friendly 120 PS's on Napa currently :(

Edit: I have a 4 slot dragon from back in the same time period or earlier as well, but my understanding is that they are basically equivalent to the ones avail today and nothing special. If that's correct I may just leave that one untrained and keep it for sentiment.
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Awesome, thanks for the info! So mine in EC looks more like the one on the right with more blue shading. 1999-2000 is likely right, if I were to guess I would say I stopped playing around '99-'00. My memory is that prior to some patch I would roll with ~5 dragons and just replace the dead. It's likely I didn't get the WW until they changed control slots to limit the active high level pets. .
That was Publish 16 in 2002. My guess would be your wyrm is from 2001-2002.

Your dragon is 4 slot? Should be 3 unless you pressed the training button. Old dragons make different sounds than current spawning dragons too. However, since they were not rehued, but original base models, they all look the same.
 

XeneX

Adventurer
Awesome! I definitely had left prior to 2002, I did a lot of traveling that year and basically my only PC use was internet cafe's. So I'll assume he's 2000-2001 (I may have gotten him before that pub 16 and just kept him stabled in lieu of dragons at the time). So the 15+ with a suspected age of 18 is probably pretty close if not right. Thanks a bunch for helping me nail that down!
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Is there a way to distinguish the two, like a recording of the different grunting I could compare with?
If you want to hear what an ancient White Wyrm sounds like, i can show you on Napa. Just send me a PM and we can arrange a time. I'll be hosting a Guild Hunt on Atlantic between 6:00 PM-7:00 PM PST though.

I have one on Chesapeake (maybe you remember us talking about this before). Your dates for your "ancients" and "legacies" transitions appear to be a bit off. Nightmares had a similar transition.

Because pet bonding wasn't introduced until publish 16, keeping old pets alive wasn't exactly easy back in the days. That combined with the stable limits of publish 16 probably greatly contributed to why so few are around these days of any nongold eating wyrms.




The what our guild calls Heirlooms White Wyrms are hued in a different fashion than anything after them. The easiest way to tell is using the EC client. The Heirloom/"Ancient" is on the left.

Yeah, i was working purely off of memory, which is why i stated "around 1999-2002". It's been at least 17 years since i've seen another ancient White Wyrm.
Yep, i heavily used Hades to hunt on a near-daily basis for 4 years in the pre-bonding days. He survived absolutely everything that i threw him at. I remember one time i died just north of Papua, in the volcanic area, and it took me almost 10 mins to get back there, i thought he'd be dead. I got back there, and there was just a mountain of corpses (Fire Eles, Efreets, Hell Hounds, Hellcats, Lava Serpents, etc) everywhere as Hades was still killing everything in sight. That's when i knew i had a damn good WW. I like to think of Hades as UO's version of Alduin, lol. 3:09 on.

Actually, hue isn't a way to tell the Gen 1 "Ancients" from the later generations. Hades looks like the WW on the right in the picture, he's a "non-pure" color. The only difference that i have seen that is readily noticeable, is the sound they make.
Hades EC.PNG
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Yeah, i was working purely off of memory, which is why i stated "around 1999-2002". It's been at least 17 years since i've seen another ancient White Wyrm.

Actually, hue isn't a way to tell the Gen 1 "Ancients" from the later generations. Hades looks like the WW on the right in the picture, he's a "non-pure" color. The only difference that i have seen that is readily noticeable, is the sound they make.
View attachment 92818
That is actually news to me, that yours isnt like Ralph. Bad assumption on my part, but then I have never seen another white wyrm like Ralph. Ralph behaves like yours and is from the same time period. All my Nightmares are like Ralph and they are from the same time period too. Assumed yours would be similar. Can you do me a favor and item id your wyrm in EC and tell me the number that comes up.

Also have you been inactive for any periods of time in the past 21 years?
 
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PlayerSkillFTW

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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That is actually news to me, that yours isnt like Ralph. Bad assumption on my part, but then I have never seen another white wyrm like Ralph. Ralph behaves like yours and is from the same time period. All my Nightmares are like Ralph and they are from the same time period too. Assumed yours would be similar. Can you do me a favor and item id your wyrm in EC and tell me the number that comes up.

Also have you been inactive for any periods of time in the past 21 years?
Not exactly certain what you mean by "Item ID" in EC. So i ran all the ID tools that i could find in Pinco's on him.
So i ran Item ID on Hades in EC with Pinco's, and all it said was "It appears to be: Hades"
I ran the Type ID Tool on him, and it said his Body ID is 49 (0x31).
I ran the Hue ID tool on him, and it said his Mobile ID Color is 0. R: 255, G: 255, B: 255

Longest break i've taken, was for like 2 years when Darkfall Online came out around 2008/2009. I still kept my accounts up though.
 

XeneX

Adventurer
I was able to meet Hades in game and compare with Newt (the WW referenced in my op), the difference in sound is unmistakable. Newt has what I call a very low growl (grunt), and Hades is a full-on roar. They looked the same to me in EC, but apparently those around with CC saw Newt as pure white and Hades as off-white.

Definitely has been cool to learn all the differences and history of these really old companions!
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Certifiable
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Stratics Legend
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So, just met XeneX on Napa and everyone whipped out their WWs for show and tell. XeneX has a Gen 2 "Legacy" WW. Hades was the only Gen 1 "Ancient" WW there, he was the only one that roars, all the rest were grunting.
We then took his WW, Newt, out for a spin through Wrong Dungeon, definitely spams the hell out of AI. Watched it spam AI for about 75% of it's attacks on a poor Lizardmen Defender. Saw it AI 3 times in a row multiple times. It'll be a beast once he gets it scrolled and skilled up. The AI spam along with the overcapped STR, is why Chiv+AI WWs can out damage almost any other pet, given proper Resists on the foe.

One of these days, we gotta do a call out and have everyone bring out their WWs. See if there's any more Gen 1 "Ancients" to be discovered out there. So far, "Hades" and "Ralph" are the only confirmed surviving Ancients.
 
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Merth

Journeyman
So, just met XeneX on Napa and everyone whipped out their WWs for show and tell. XeneX has a Gen 2 "Legacy" WW. Hades was the only Gen 1 "Ancient" WW there, he was the only one that roars, all the rest were grunting.
We then took his WW, Newt, out for a spin through Wrong Dungeon, definitely spams the hell out of AI. Watched it spam AI for about 75% of it's attacks on a poor Lizardmen Defender. Saw it AI 3 times in a row multiple times. It'll be a beast once he gets it scrolled and skilled up. The AI spam along with the overcapped STR, is why Chiv+AI WWs can out damage almost any other pet, given proper Resists on the foe.

One of these days, we gotta do a call out and have everyone bring out their WWs. See if there's any more Gen 1 "Ancients" to be discovered out there. So far, only "Hades" and "Ralph" are confirmed surviving Ancients.
Inspired me to check mine tonight lol
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
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So, @Khyro reminded me not everyone has the same UI for EC that we use. Ooops.

Anyways we went over to Napa to lore Hades and Newt.

Hades ID lore:




This is Ralph's id, lowest I've seen of any tamed animal



Was just to piece together the visual difference between the two animals. I keep item ID on all of our legacy pets. Transfering of course changes their id.

Another weird thing about Ralph, you will notice he his partially trained. When patch 97 came out he was able to start training immediately and not jump a slot unlike all other white wyrms I had seen.
 
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PlayerSkillFTW

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Stratics Legend
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So, @Khyro reminded me not everyone has the same UI for EC that we use. Ooops.

Anyways we went over to Napa to lore Hades and Newt.

Hades ID lore:




This is Ralph's id, lowest I've seen of any tamed animal



Was just to piece together the visual difference between the two animals. I keep item ID on all of our legacy pets. Transfering of course changes their id.

Another weird thing about Ralph, you will notice he his partially trained. When patch 97 came out he was able to start training immediately and not jump a slot unlike all other white wyrms I have seen.
Yeah, i may have transferred my Tamer/Mage, Zeus, over to Atlantic to pick up a Vol 3 Taming Primer, so that probably changed Hades' ID.
 

Khaelor

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I wonder what kind I have. I know he's old. 721 STR, doesn't eat gold.
If I recall correctly, you had a -- Physical resist dragon also, so I am curious. Does your White Wyrm growl or roar when asked to follow?
 

XeneX

Adventurer
Your dragon is 4 slot?
Sorry, missed this Q. Yeah, when I returned and pulled out pets I had the 2 slot mare, 2x 2 slot fire steeds, the WW, and a 4 slot dragon. The dragon has not been trained, I think I took him to kill a balron to see how he did, but the fire steeds were superior as a pair (likewise pairing the mare and WW) so I stuck him back in the stables and haven't taken him out since. As a 4 slot he's not very useful to me.
 

Merth

Journeyman
Sorry, missed this Q. Yeah, when I returned and pulled out pets I had the 2 slot mare, 2x 2 slot fire steeds, the WW, and a 4 slot dragon. The dragon has not been trained, I think I took him to kill a balron to see how he did, but the fire steeds were superior as a pair (likewise pairing the mare and WW) so I stuck him back in the stables and haven't taken him out since. As a 4 slot he's not very useful to me.
I kept my 4 slot in stable as well. Just because i like him lol
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
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Sorry, missed this Q. Yeah, when I returned and pulled out pets I had the 2 slot mare, 2x 2 slot fire steeds, the WW, and a 4 slot dragon. The dragon has not been trained, I think I took him to kill a balron to see how he did, but the fire steeds were superior as a pair (likewise pairing the mare and WW) so I stuck him back in the stables and haven't taken him out since. As a 4 slot he's not very useful to me.
And its a dragon and not a greater dragon?

I have not seen people return with their dragons at 4 slot, just three slot, which is why i am asking.
 

Merth

Journeyman
And its a dragon and not a greater dragon?

I have not seen people return with their dragons at 4 slot, just three slot, which is why i am asking.
3 slot that jumps to 4 when button is pushed? Regular dragon that is? I’ll check mine tonight.
 

Khaelor

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3 slot that jumps to 4 when button is pushed? Regular dragon that is? I’ll check mine tonight.
When you press the blue button on 3 slot dragons they will immediately jump to 4 slot. You do get a warning, but that warning only shows once ever. So if you got the warning message 9 months ago and canceled and press the blue button again, it will immediately jump to 4 slot.

But I've yet to see a person come back and their dragon automatically be 4 slot without pushing that button first.
 

Merth

Journeyman
When you press the blue button on 3 slot dragons they will immediately jump to 4 slot. You do get a warning, but that warning only shows once ever. So if you got the warning message 9 months ago and canceled and press the blue button again, it will immediately jump to 4 slot.

But I've yet to see a person come back and their dragon automatically be 4 slot without pushing that button first.
Ya thats probably the case i havent pushed the button so its probably still at 3 slots
 

Merth

Journeyman
My stable wasnt as full so only had 1 dragon, 1 ww (bluish tint one), 2 nm’s, and a few cu’s
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
The way I see it, pre-patch dragons are now worthless, except maybe to collectors. Mine jumped to 4 slot.

Anyone can tame a 4 slot stygian drake with up to 825 STR and no dragon breath.
 

XeneX

Adventurer
When you press the blue button on 3 slot dragons they will immediately jump to 4 slot. You do get a warning, but that warning only shows once ever. So if you got the warning message 9 months ago and canceled and press the blue button again, it will immediately jump to 4 slot.

But I've yet to see a person come back and their dragon automatically be 4 slot without pushing that button first.
To clarify, when you say push the blue button do you mean the blue training button to start filling the bar, or the blue training button once the bar is full to actually select new abilities? I had done the former, but not the latter.
 

Dimman

Adventurer
The way I see it, pre-patch dragons are now worthless, except maybe to collectors. Mine jumped to 4 slot.

Anyone can tame a 4 slot stygian drake with up to 825 STR and no dragon breath.

I have a prepatch dragon thats still at 3 slots, have not started training on it. (818 str)
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I have a prepatch dragon thats still at 3 slots, have not started training on it. (818 str)
As soon as you start training it, it will slot jump to 4 slots. You will only get 1 training round 4->5. Dragon breath is a mana hog. That's why I said they are functionally worthless because you can go out and tame a Stygian Drake right now with no dragon breath and up to 825 STR on it. Also a few posters in the past said they heard their Stygian Drake drinking potions; I have not experienced that myself, but I usually play with the volume off.
 

ARRONS169

Visitor
I am a bit paranoid about training this guy. He's very old. I can't recall exactly when I tamed him, but after not playing for 15 years I've likely had him for 18+. He was the only WW I kept from back then.

I trained him up on the TC, but I have to say I'm underwhelmed with his performance. I've done this same build on a fire steed on my prod shard, and with a PP mare on TC, and have been quite pleased with the results, but I guess I expected the WW to outperform them. In general he seems to be on par with most of my other pets @ 5 slots (rune beetle, fire steed, mare, dragon, GD). Perhaps it's my expectations, there seems to be a lot of hype around these guys being overcapped for their control slots, but maybe it's just not as significant as the hype would lead on.

This is the training I did on TC:

Starting stats:


3=>4 training plan


4=>5 training plan


Final stats


Any advice is appreciated! I'm not going to train him off TC until I feel good about it.
 
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