Worst grinding mmorg ever! top 5!

[Uvtha]

I thought WoW was a boring game period, but one thing they REALLY have over UO though is there's at least something to do no matter what your skill level is at....when you start WoW there's plenty of places you can go and hunt that are worth doing and other players there to actually play with. When you start UO you're presented with basicly a choice to more quickly afk train on a golem (which EVERYONE will recommend to you if you ask how to train). Or spend weeks to months killing monsters that you may as well not even loot because the second you get "high enough" in skill to play with other people you'll get more in a single kill than all of that combined.

I absolutely HATE blizzard both in their game designs and as a company in general but even I have to give them that they understand that to maintain a playerbase you have to have things for new players to do as well....not just things for maxed out characters to do, as a matter of fact everyone else seems to get that but EA who's tactics seems to be always based around "wring as much cash out of existing players as possible and to hell with the game surviving in the long term". Some forget too that many of EA's MMO's weren't the grindfests they got known for and canceled from players quitting from when they launched...EA generally added the ultra-grind afterwards. They love to do that, release a game then a few years in basicly tear out everything people enjoyed in the game and turn it into another generic grindfest until it invariably dies.

I have thought that this is a serious problem in UO for a while now. The game at pretty much every level is designed only for a fully developed character. It wasn't always like this. Its just a side effect of item loss being removed and thus character power inflation over time requiring new addition to game to be more and more powerful to keep people interested as they amp up in power.

 

[Woodsman]

I have thought that this is a serious problem in UO for a while now. The game at pretty much every level is designed only for a fully developed character. It wasn't always like this. Its just a side effect of item loss being removed and thus character power inflation over time requiring new addition to game to be more and more powerful to keep people interested as they amp up in power.

That and the problems with UO being item-based. They aren't trying to bring in new players either, which reinforces your view of the additions having to be more and more powerful. It really discourages new and returning players, which makes no sense.

I've read what Jeff said a few times about them not bothering with new players, and I looked at what Cal and Mesanna wanted to do last year with bringing in new players, and I can really only shake my head. I know there's some Cal and Mesanna haters in here, but at least Cal knew you needed new players.

Raptor85 was correct:

I thought WoW was a boring game period, but one thing they REALLY have over UO though is there's at least something to do no matter what your skill level is at.

 

[Uvtha]

That and the problems with UO being item-based. They aren't trying to bring in new players either, which reinforces your view of the additions having to be more and more powerful. It really discourages new and returning players, which makes no sense.

I've read what Jeff said a few times about them not bothering with new players, and I looked at what Cal and Mesanna wanted to do last year with bringing in new players, and I can really only shake my head. I know there's some Cal and Mesanna haters in here, but at least Cal knew you needed new players.

Raptor85 was correct:

Its not even about being item based. Its the fact that you never lose your items. If people still lost items then the power level would balance out. And while newer players have a much bigger role to play in a game with a cycle of loss/replenishment (gathering resources from low level monsters while they train, for one) they would still need to do more.

But people are afraid to lose things, so we have to deal with a broken game. I don't think you can have balance without loss.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

This post is about the grinds in the game, skill gain is one of those grinds.

While it's absolutely great to see the quite creative ideas pop up for resolving some of these issues, the individual problems really need their own threads where the bumps in the road can be hammered down, hopefully flattened to conceptual ideas where developers can pick up the ball, provide some interaction and then run with it. Many skills could be included, besides Taming, Lockpicking, Poisoning, just pick one. How those are grouped and compiled down in the ends are unknown.
This thread was started simply to bring to light certain issues, encouraging players to work together, nicely, towards the betterment and longevity of game.

 

[Woodsman]

Its not even about being item based. Its the fact that you never lose your items. If people still lost items then the power level would balance out. And while newer players have a much bigger role to play in a game with a cycle of loss/replenishment (gathering resources from low level monsters while they train, for one) they would still need to do more.

But people are afraid to lose things, so we have to deal with a broken game. I don't think you can have balance without loss.

It's not so much balance unless you mean making crafters more relevant. I agree that it doesn't help - getting an uber weapon and then never losing it, never having it really wear out, etc. does change things.

People complain about WOW forcing you to move on through weapons and armor - either because you're moving up another level and better gear becomes available, or because you really don't have a way to store a lot of things (although Blizzard changed that recently), but there is a method to their madness.

I know what possessed the UO team back in the early 2000's to make items virtually indestructible, but when they did it, I doubt they thought about the long-term implications.

 

[Uvtha]

It's not so much balance unless you mean making crafters more relevant. I agree that it doesn't help - getting an uber weapon and then never losing it, never having it really wear out, etc. does change things.

People complain about WOW forcing you to move on through weapons and armor - either because you're moving up another level and better gear becomes available, or because you really don't have a way to store a lot of things (although Blizzard changed that recently), but there is a method to their madness.

I know what possessed the UO team back in the early 2000's to make items virtually indestructible, but when they did it, I doubt they thought about the long-term implications.

Well, I would say there are a few design holes in terms of how systems work in regards to items but in general, yes, everything is much more balanced with item loss because the power level of items used over all is much lower, the player skill and in game skill value increases. And if someone wants to still run a 20 million dollar suit, then they deserve to have that edge, because they are putting their wealth against their ability to keep alive, which if you ask me is how it should be.

I think if you made a few tweaks in drops, various skills and combat in general, then simplified item properties a tich, and then replaced insurance with very limited (read 1 or 2 blessed items per character) item protection I think the game would be very very balanced and more fun in general to play.

As for WOW, the thought process there is simple. People get jazzed by having clear cut goals laid out ahead of them, and achieving those goals. It gives you a chemical kick of satisfaction. WOW is built around that repetitive goal/accomplishment type of game play, much like facebook games are. I think thats fine really, but it's not the sort of game I would want to devote any time to.

UO changing to no loss basically never break item as well is no mystery. Its what people want. People get attached to their bits and bobs and it stresses them out to lose them. I won't criticize anyone who feels that way, even if I don't understand it, but like it or not there are downsides to that kind of system. I would argue bigger downsides than full loss, personally.

To me multi player games should be less about accomplishment (built in accomplishments like levels and leveled armor sets etc anyway), and more about adventure and player interaction.

The interaction and the community were the best parts of uo at its peak pre ren (and a short window on siege in like...08). People had to interact and work together, and it was about having a fun day, not collecting uber item x. I think games need to get back to that sort of design.

 

[Theo_GL]

It's not so much balance unless you mean making crafters more relevant. I agree that it doesn't help - getting an uber weapon and then never losing it, never having it really wear out, etc. does change things.

People complain about WOW forcing you to move on through weapons and armor - either because you're moving up another level and better gear becomes available, or because you really don't have a way to store a lot of things (although Blizzard changed that recently), but there is a method to their madness.

I know what possessed the UO team back in the early 2000's to make items virtually indestructible, but when they did it, I doubt they thought about the long-term implications.

One of the reason they are virtually indestructable is the fact that they now have so many complex mods - you can't afford to lose a piece of your suit or weapon without spending a huge amount of time trying to replace it.

They added imbuing so you could 'make' a replacement but then they made the ingredients hard enough to gather/find that you still have a huge time sink to replace the item.

If weapons had 2-3 mods total and wore out every few days - smiths could make a bunch and put on a vendor and people would buy. However, weapon ingredients cost 100-500k (relic frags, essance, vials of vitriol etc) and there are so many mods - rarely do people carry the same weapon. It is impossible for a crafter to pre-make what people want. Thus nearly all armor/weapon vendor shops are gone including my own.

They killed it by making it too complex.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

One of the reason they are virtually indestructible is the fact that they now have so many complex mods
They killed it by making it too complex.

SHOULD ALL ITEMS DECAY?
Sounds like AN excellent thread starter. I think the Devs attempted to address this in the recent Loot upgrade, by bringing brittle and non-repairable into greater abundance, unfortunately they used that 'needle in a haystack' method again. A new level of difficulty offered to match re-forging, I haven't even begun to think whether I should just Dump my 1000's of BOD and simply start over, offering little to bring back importance that crafters deserve. I hear it's now just another underutilized activity with cluttered menu after menu. This happens when plans are secreted as there's always reasons behind their madness, if we knew what they were we'd either understand, or help them to.

 

[SlackAttacker]

Anything of value should be difficult and time consuming to get.

If you don't like the sandbox, go play on the monkeybars.

 

[MalagAste]

Ok... here is something the ponder. Many folk like games that are well... challenging but yet have a clear path. Most people can't wrap their heads around not having any real laid out path. It's like Tetris... people like it because it's easy and addictive. The better you get at it the faster it goes and the harder it becomes. However it doesn't really change.... it's the same shapes the same colors and the same basic idea just faster...

WoW and a bunch of other games are like that.... build up to this level do all these quests because you are X race and Y skill set... But folk like me think that's BORING.

Those who really love UO love it because you don't have to conform to the norm. You can do whatever tricks your trigger so to speak. If you get tired of that then scrap it all and start over with something else. UO is and ever will be what you make it. Strangely enough some folk MAKE it boring. They are like the WoW folk who can't see "outside the box". They see it as grab all the gold, sell everything get more gold, obtain every item and develop the L33Test characters with the flavor of the month template and kill, kill, kill... but then doing everything that way it's very easy to burn out and get bored. There is no challenge in it and once it's done it's overdone...

The goals set are the goals that shape the game. Me I have many goals. One is to finish up all the skills on all 50+ characters on my shard. Eventually I might like to have a Tamer, a Crafter and a Dexer on every shard..... but that's a long term sort of goal... one I am not really working on... I'd like to get all my tamers up over 550k in points at the Zoo sometime so I can get the Leather set of armor... just because... but first there are a few of the statues I'd like... I'm still over 100k or more in points off from getting one. I'd also sometime like to do more things in Fel... but I rather doubt that will happen anytime soon. I'd like to do more with my Theatre too... but again that's sort of down the road. In the meantime I enjoy all the EM events for what they are not what I get from them.... though I do enjoy the items I get and proudly place them on display at my homes... it doesn't ruin my gameplay if I don't get one... I just enjoy the time spent with friends and the adventure of the event.

I often participate in the global story arcs as well.... though often I find them a grind and extremely frustrating. More often than not it results in the loss of items... I still remember one particular event where I lost my entire body and everything on it..... it vanished. Spellbooks, runebooks and all.... was not a very happy camper that day... But still I participate.


But back to challenge and path... UO thankfully does NOT lead you around by the nose... However this does not appeal to the normal folk.... they want to be lead not leaders. This is where good guilds come in. A good guild in UO will have things going on for those who enjoy being a follower. But sadly with the way things are of late it's hard to do group guild functions because most the game is now something most folk can solo. Either the spawn rate is so blooming slow that if more than one person tried to do things there they would spend 90% of their time standing about picking their nose waiting for something to spawn... or the spawnrate is ok but the monsters are TOO EASY and the reward too small... So no one cares to go do it. Now that several folk SOLO Champ spawns and Peerless and everything else in the game it's hard to come up with things to do for a group of people without everyone getting bored and wandering off.

 

[Woodsman]

Anything of value should be difficult and time consuming to get.

If you don't like the sandbox, go play on the monkeybars.

If I ask somebody to go fight something with me, they ask me which monsters, then they have to go and get specific weapons and armor and/or specific pets.

That's not a sandbox.

 

[Mervyn]

After reading this thread, i am still none the wiser as to what 'grind' is.

Maybe i'm just out of touch with the common man since everything is done for me.

 

[Woodsman]

Grinding (video gaming) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or boring tasks not pertaining to the story line of the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.