Why is UO so extremely underdeveloped?

[Damien Softstep]

Wombats are Australian.

Australia is the root of all UO's problems.

True story...speedhacking originally came from kangaroo...

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Wrong. The server-side code is written in C/C++, augmented by a custom secondary scripting language called Wombat.

The reason the devs have referred to the server code as "spaghetti code" over the years is because of the Pointer Hell associated with 12+ years of various teams working on the C/C++, cobbling random fixes and features on top of each other.


That C# project you mention (I won't name it, but I know what it is and have looked at the code a bit) benefits from several things:

• Unlike C++, there's no variable shadowing to confuse programmers.
• Unlike C++, C# enforces single inheritance, removing the Diamond Problem.
• C# has garbage collection for easier/safer memory management.
• C# has no global variables with which to tempt programmers.
• C# has greater type safety than C/C++.
• The entire core of the project had a clear and obvious vision right from the start: make it do exactly what Ultima Online does, and when that's done, then start adding new features. UO itself has been built up over the past 14+ years from an amalgamation of competing systems and design visions.

Good posting! Very interesting details! They explain why every little change in UO turns into a bug-ridden hell, and why some bugs remain unfixed for years.

My point is, if someone with a little bit of vision would look at UO and its potential, he might even consider migrating the whole Wombat spaghetti-code nightmare to something like the existing Emulator, make it scaleable (to support multiple subservers) and start turning UO into something what deserves the name "Roleplaying Game".

Add a good client, and the subscription numbers would triple.

 

[FingersMcSteal]

Not really. This post was focused on UO's coding and the built-in potential that was never developed fully.

Nice to see someone's keeping it on track here, after all that was the original reason for the thread being started.

I'm in agreement with alot of the things mentioned in the very 1st post, EA would have to spend time & money on getting alot of it in tho... which i think we can all agree will probably never happen which is a shame. The potential's there to add so much more and yeah i understand theres some people out there that might not like some of the ideas or changes.

I played for well over 7 years myself but in the end after seeing the constant & obvious cheats that were around felt the game had been pushed beyond the point of fun for me. This kind of thing will always happen in any online game where players require things like an in game currency, someone will always work on tools and applications to farm them dry and make cash for themself, it's just a fact of online gaming these days from what i've seen.

As for 'that' C# server software, i've had more satisfaction by releasing my own custom ideas and code for it. Granted not everyone can write code but it's a nice feeling spending days working on something to see it finally work, maybe if EA ironed out some of the bugs and made a few fixes i'd one day return, after all UO is to me one of the mmorpg games that all of the newer ones could never even come close to.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Wrong. The server-side code is written in C/C++, augmented by a custom secondary scripting language called Wombat.

The reason the devs have referred to the server code as "spaghetti code" over the years is because of the Pointer Hell associated with 12+ years of various teams working on the C/C++, cobbling random fixes and features on top of each other.


That C# project you mention (I won't name it, but I know what it is and have looked at the code a bit) benefits from several things:

• Unlike C++, there's no variable shadowing to confuse programmers.
• Unlike C++, C# enforces single inheritance, removing the Diamond Problem.
• C# has garbage collection for easier/safer memory management.
• C# has no global variables with which to tempt programmers.
• C# has greater type safety than C/C++.
• The entire core of the project had a clear and obvious vision right from the start: make it do exactly what Ultima Online does, and when that's done, then start adding new features. UO itself has been built up over the past 14+ years from an amalgamation of competing systems and design visions.

Good posting! Very interesting details! They explain why every little change in UO turns into a bug-ridden hell, and why some bugs remain unfixed for years.

My point is, if someone with a little bit of vision would look at UO and its potential, he might even consider migrating the whole Wombat spaghetti-code nightmare to something like the existing Emulator, make it scaleable (to support multiple subservers) and start turning UO into something what deserves the name "Roleplaying Game".

Add a good client, and the subscription numbers would triple.

I think "triple" might be an understatement, but I agree.

There's all sort of problems though. For example, a dynamic wildlife system can't be maintained due to the rapid rates that players can go through "content", hunting wildlife in UO to near extinction. You can't maintain a system like this proposal when it's constantly resetting with new spawn.
You'd need huge areas of wild preserve. Forests, plains, etc. So huge that players, who can kill/skin/butcher wildlife at astounding rates, can't affect the entire thing, only smaller areas.

Most game producers consider such vast lands with little player action to be wasted space. But I'd love it as an explorer. There could be all sorts of hidden things, like caves, ruins, crypts, ancient landmarks (think Stonehenge here), etc. There could be discoveries that matter to the lore, or even long running current events.

But what you said, a person with "vision", that's the important part. There are few people in this world that really have that. Most are well trained and educated and informed, but do not have that special "vision". I'm not sure UO has, or can find, the kind of vision it would take to build a world like that. Everything ties together, hunting brings meat brings need brings effects brings economy brings spread of wealth brings adaptability brings social structure brings power. Or something like that or whatever. And the visionary has to be able to see it all together as one working component.

 

[AdamD]

FYI, That 'server emulator' software could never power a shard as big as Atlantic, It has no subserver support and .NET applications EAT memory and CPU.

A news item posted in 2005 on that server emu's forum read..

Tonight we had 7891 users logged into xxxxxxxxx on a single machine in a single facet. The shard was packed beyond belief and with over five million items, almost two hundred thousand mobiles and sixty-five thousand accounts the server was saving in less than fifteen seconds.

Given that it was dated 4-5 years ago, it's apparent the server can indeed handle more than the traffic of an EA server.

I forget what the population cap is on a server, but on AOS's launch, Europa was blocking people's connections because that cap was reached and if memory serves me correctly, it was 1000? players.

 

[Salya Sin]

I think "triple" might be an understatement, but I agree.

There's all sort of problems though. For example, a dynamic wildlife system can't be maintained due to the rapid rates that players can go through "content", hunting wildlife in UO to near extinction. You can't maintain a system like this proposal when it's constantly resetting with new spawn.
You'd need huge areas of wild preserve. Forests, plains, etc. So huge that players, who can kill/skin/butcher wildlife at astounding rates, can't affect the entire thing, only smaller areas.

Most game producers consider such vast lands with little player action to be wasted space. But I'd love it as an explorer. There could be all sorts of hidden things, like caves, ruins, crypts, ancient landmarks (think Stonehenge here), etc. There could be discoveries that matter to the lore, or even long running current events.

But what you said, a person with "vision", that's the important part. There are few people in this world that really have that. Most are well trained and educated and informed, but do not have that special "vision". I'm not sure UO has, or can find, the kind of vision it would take to build a world like that. Everything ties together, hunting brings meat brings need brings effects brings economy brings spread of wealth brings adaptability brings social structure brings power. Or something like that or whatever. And the visionary has to be able to see it all together as one working component.

I love the ideas in the thread... btw...

I have to wonder at how effective the players would be in hunting and skinning something that RUNS from you. You'd maybe get one... then have to find the others again. Would give the skill "tracking" some meaning... So I think it would possibly balance out... that's if you didn't stick the poor deer in one area that they had to stay in. Let them wander/migrate as real deer would.

Also... every time there is an expansion.. there are new areas to explore and find. What does everyone do? Come on Stratics to find where and how... sooo... I don't think the "hidden" would stay hidden for long. I don't mind this... but I think it needs saying that at least EA tries to do that.

 

[Bruin]

Many of the features you list there are absolutely wonderful. The problem is this - they're absolutely wonderful to people like me (and I'm assuming you). We make up the minority of people who play this game.

Personally, I care about game play and being swept away into some sort of believable fantasy world. All those features you listed would by far bring our game closer to that.

However, most people in this game do not care about such things. This game, from what I've seen, has pretty much become the epitome of a pixel crack game. As much as we love our homes, they allow us to store (and show off) massive amounts of junk.

This game has slowly evolved into an adventurous type of fantasy world, into a a pixel crack kind. And as the item *****s make up the majority of the population, the devs simply cater to them.

I mean if you're going to make a change - do you make a change that makes animals run away from you making this world more believable and making 10 people happy? Or do you make a change where you introduce new stealable artifacts that you can use as decoration to your homes and make 1,000 people happy?

 

[Trebr Drab]

I love the ideas in the thread... btw...

I have to wonder at how effective the players would be in hunting and skinning something that RUNS from you. You'd maybe get one... then have to find the others again. Would give the skill "tracking" some meaning... So I think it would possibly balance out... that's if you didn't stick the poor deer in one area that they had to stay in. Let them wander/migrate as real deer would.

Also... every time there is an expansion.. there are new areas to explore and find. What does everyone do? Come on Stratics to find where and how... sooo... I don't think the "hidden" would stay hidden for long. I don't mind this... but I think it needs saying that at least EA tries to do that.

Agree on the thread.

Yeah, if animals run then it would change the dynamics of hunting. But with highly skilled archers and mages that don't require a "to hit" roll, it makes it more difficult. But you mentioned tracking. If animals ran on sight (so you don't feel all alone in the wilds), then it might have some real possibilities.
But then you need stealth (good). Or maybe a very quick trigger finger/target attack. If critters are attracted to food, such as deer to apples/corn, you could set a trap while hiding.

Maybe there's some possibilities here.

As far as EA trying with new exploration, yeah I know they do. But it could be done a lot better with two things. Size, so that players will have so much area to cover that it makes it hard. And concealment. Caves/crypts hidden behind plants, in crevices, places where they are hard to see. Maybe hard to get to also.

 

[JC the Builder]

There is no question that UO would benefit greatly from a complete rewrite of server side code. However that costs time and money, something EA has never been generous with. It would take years with current resources to complete such a project and the game would stagnate because you can't update and rewrite at the same time.

See: Kingdom Reborn.

 

[Zayin666]

You want a enhanced client go play WoW...

I played wow in my 3 year UO braek and yes thats probally why I like the EC so much.

But fact is that most new players these days are players that actually did play wow or some other new MMO and get bored with the lvling and raiding crap... they want to check out what UO is and they are far better of with the EC than the old client... I mean you do want new players in UO right? Or do you just want to play with the same old geezers you played with back in 97??
Some of the kids starting playing today wasnt even born when the old client was released.... give them something they know how to use and they will be much more likely to stay in UO... which is good for everyone!!

 

[Paps]

There is no question that UO would benefit greatly from a complete rewrite of server side code. However that costs time and money, something EA has never been generous with. It would take years with current resources to complete such a project and the game would stagnate because you can't update and rewrite at the same time.

i was going to say about the exact same thing,,you just beat me to it.

 

[Konge]

There is no question that UO would benefit greatly from a complete rewrite of server side code. However that costs time and money, something EA has never been generous with. It would take years with current resources to complete such a project and the game would stagnate because you can't update and rewrite at the same time.

See: Kingdom Reborn.

QFT. Think amount all the bugs and stuff you want fixed. If they do what you want, we wont have any bug fixes, publishes, new content for who knows how long. Not to mention what the other poster said about the Difs of C# and C/C++.

 

[Llwyd]

I mean you do want new players in UO right? Or do you just want to play with the same old geezers you played with back in 97??

*cough* You might have worded that differently.

 

[Zayin666]

*cough* You might have worded that differently.

Yeah sorry Well... Iam an old geezer myself so I thought it wasnt that bad

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

My point is, if someone with a little bit of vision would look at UO

I have much respect for you, hawkeye. But, perhaps you should apply to become a developer and then when/if you have the shoes on, we will see how competent you are with more than little bit of vision that you do possess.

To be more direct, I am pretty sure many people with more than a "little bit of vision" have looked at UO in the years gone by. Things often seem simple when you are not the one facing the challenge.

 

[FingersMcSteal]

In my mind the best fix they could do would probably be spend time / money / resources etc etc etc and go ahead with a re-write of the servers. Iron out as many of the exploits and bugs there aware of and bring the server code and systems right up to date.

The current servers i'm guessing save the shard data in some kind of a format so just make new server code able to read it into the newer code and allow it to run on the newer hardware, leave the current clients alone for the time being, lets face it the last few attempts at client re-works haven't been a great success and who knows how much money and times been wasted on those so far.

Along with the newer server coding that you do also plan ahead to allow updating of the graphics formats to handle better quality graphics and sound, they all need updates i think when you look at other isometric graphics and the quality you can achive with 32bit colours and shading. It's like looking at an icon with 8bit colour then compare it against an icon with 32bit colour enabled if you follow me here.

I know its easy to waffle on about what would be good or bad but in the end it just depends on how much EA would want to throw at UO in order to fix it.

 

[georgemarvin2001]

Umm...We did have hunger until 2003, when the AOS Dev team, in their infinite lack of wisdom, removed it. Until then, if a player was extremely hungry, he was much less likely to hit his target. And, pre-AOS, there was quite a bit of talk about making cooking a much more useful skill, with players being able to make all sorts of food and drink, some with bonuses to str, dex, int, etc.; part of that was actually introduced with the petals in the plants system, several years later. Players farming to make their own goods was also discussed. I think almost all the code was built into the system a couple of years before the AOS team decided to change almost everything in the entire game.

Also, the AOS team changed the way that NPCs interact, basically giving them a lobotomy. Before that, players would lure a tailor NPC out of the town guard zone to get black sandals, and I killed a town crier to get the suit. If the NPCs had bought items from players, the items were in their backpack and could be stolen, too, if you didn't mind getting guard-whacked.

You can thank the AOS team for the AI fact that most of the systems which were designed to make the game more realistic and interesting were either removed or never implemented.

The reason that the decompiled/recompiled UO simulator still has all of those systems today is that they were coded into UO in like 2000-2001, but they were all scrapped by the AOS team, and nobody either knew how to remove them without damaging other in-game systems, or the post-AOS programming teams actually knew how but just didn't bother.

 

[canary]

My opinion is that three of UO's biggest issues have been:

1) lack of passion from the developers. I'm not saying ALL of them, but yes.

2) Poor vision from the Producers. Sunsword and Cal especially, imo.

3) General programming and QA incompetence on part of the UO team.

 

[Stupid Miner]

My point is, if someone with a little bit of vision would look at UO and its potential, he might even consider migrating the whole Wombat spaghetti-code nightmare to something like the existing Emulator, make it scaleable (to support multiple subservers) and start turning UO into something what deserves the name "Roleplaying Game".

It's not that they need "vision." Draconi had that, Mesanna has that, Sakkarah has that (the previous Devs didn't so much).
It's that they don't have the necessary resources. Heck they just cut a good part of the staff. With the correct Devs, UO will expand to fill the maximum potential that EA allows it.
... and that last clause is the key.

 

[Kirthag]

During one of my absences, I started programming a UO in Java. Alot of the above mentioned was implemented with the ease of plugging in systems (brewing, farming, etc.) on a module basis. I did it to better learn Java without being put to sleep by developing banking software. My prof. thought I was insane, but when she looked at the code was thoroughly impressed - I got a B+ (not an A, I was supposed to be doing BANKING software).

However, it's been gathering cobwebs on my dev machine at home cos I'm drained by work... so I only dinker with it from time to time. I haven't checked on dumping the heap, memory allocations and cache levels which can seriously undermine the software's playability... but still good exercise in getting to know how a game works.

A modulated system is so much easier to "plug in" a new feature... like breeding systems w/stages of growth (dragon breeding anyone?) and of course, environmental effects on players and creatures alike. Mages would do better in dungeons (controlled atmosphere) where melee fighters would suffer degradation for they cannot swing freely.. you know... stuff we dealt with back in D&D gaming.

And it runs on a linux box... sweet.


*sigh*

 

[S.P.A]

There is no question that UO would benefit greatly from a complete rewrite of server side code. However that costs time and money, something EA has never been generous with. It would take years with current resources to complete such a project and the game would stagnate because you can't update and rewrite at the same time.

See: Kingdom Reborn.

Or, I guess the most totally radical concept, EA could buy one of the better Emulators and just replace the back-end lock, stock and two smoking barrels?

 

[BlackMagus]

It's really amusing to read the endless list of seemingly insightful critics from a lot of people that seem to know more or (more often probably rather) less of software architecture, or system engineering.

You guys are:

- comparing hobby projects with a few dozens, maybe hundreds of concurrent users to the UO server code base which had tens of thousands of users in it's prime per shard

- comparing a one and a half decade old project with multiple engineering teams working on it during constant production cycle to open source projects which get pretty much bootstrapped from start whenever the developers feel like it

- comparing a closed source server system that has been targeted by hundreds of very competent black hat hackers and thousands of malicious users to open source server systems that probably got more source code reviews by interested peeps than users on the more popular shards

- comparing a commercial project with financial liability to customers, project staff, and parent company to garage hacker pet projects liable to no one

- etc etc

The same pattern occurs on and off on this board on amusingly regular basis (amusing as long as you are not working for said's regularly criticized company).

Most of you have next to no idea of how to design, create, or maintain commercial software services on UO scale. So please don't try to sound like you would.

Disclaimer: I do not think that EA/Mystic/OSI/whoever has managed UO at whatever timeframe is without fault. I do think though that remote software project analysis by people who have never seen the project structure, source base, or anything else related, is even vaguely meaningful...

 

[canary]

All these ideas are fantastic but I think to say they are easy to add without you knowing for sure the actual UO servers code or how they work is stupid.

That's okay, I think people who state things are 'stupid' ALSO without knowing the facts and making just as much of a guess are stupid, too.

 

[Aurelius]

It's not that they need "vision." Draconi had that, Mesanna has that, Sakkarah has that (the previous Devs didn't so much).
It's that they don't have the necessary resources. Heck they just cut a good part of the staff. With the correct Devs, UO will expand to fill the maximum potential that EA allows it.
... and that last clause is the key.

Which is why I maintain that it all comes down to the management of the game, not us, or the programmers and developers at the coding end of things, good as some of them have been - it's the EA corporate that is the key, at producer level and above, we need someone with a clear vision of where the game could and should go, able to get things going in the right direction, get the resource needed, get the support of EA to do the job properly.

Sadly, I don't think we have ever even got close.... and as long as EA retains the past corporate mentality based on one-off standalone games, and quick and usually dirty product for fast profit, we probably never will.

The heads of EA view all 'product' as interchangeable, manageable in the same style, to the same rules and procedures. They really, really do not understand mmos at all, and are too frightened to move out of their safe little mindset to seriously try.

 

[Kirthag]

@ BlackMagus

I am a commercial developer with a base of *checks again* about 5k users at any given moment, upwards of 30k+ at peak times on just one of our 5 servers... but of course, this is business software, not gaming software. I deal with attacks and hack attempts on an hourly basis... and i may be running on linux, but I didn't say what version thereof nor did I mention whatever open-source stuff I use. Actually... nope... my core programming is 100% costumed for the business... nothing else like it in the world (unless you think like me - lol!)

I got a good grasp on what is required for what-not in regards to large-scale programming and connectivity - I think I did disclose that my venture into JavaUO was strictly for class study and not for anything ever meant to go on a live server - too many memory issue and at last (after checking my notes) I do admit to a memory leak somewhere in there. Shoot, even my kids were not allowed to ping my dev server and they lived in the same house!


I do not begrudge the devs [Mythic] having to deal with us UO gamers (customers) as well as the EA bean counter bosses. I get it from all sides myself being "middle management" - customers, executives, in-house users and my own staff - all want a bite outta my fat arse because this or that isn't done. I also have to deal with cutting much asked for software features [from our customers & users] due to lack of staff, time and funds. Its not easy being in software development right now, or even managing thereof. The whole purpose of me taking the classes was to fill in the gaps in my department! I'm not just an administrator... I'm a designer, architect, programmer, manager, developer and (as the boss puts it) am completely responsible for the internet! Not to mention coffee maker! Yeah, I even go and pick up donuts and pizza when the OT stacks up. I get into the code, I don't just sit behind my desk & post on stratics all day....




Regardless. Yes, there are some silly people who think anything can be done... after all, computers have that "magic button" and they "just do it" because that is how they are! (my mother's quote... not my words!) It comes with the territory.



What would really be special is a super-secret Mythic team doing just what we are asking for - creating UO from the bottom floor up with perks, bells & whistles to please almost any gamer. Sorta like how SquareSoft did here in Honolulu with Final Fantasy for a while....



For all we know.. that's what's happening now.... maybe they DIDN'T lay off those team members.. maybe they are sequestered on some remote, deserted island plugging out the code for that "perfect" UO/Shard so many threads are seeking....



I'm an idealist & a dreamer... so sue me.



Sometimes I think to send my code (sourse and compiles) to someone @ Mythic as a gift... tell them merry christmas or something. It would be complete with waiver of compensation - just PUHLEEZ keep UO running & improve the code! After all, I wanna teach my granddaughter to slay dragons (in about 10 years).

 

[lucitus]

first of all, what i need is a good client to play with again!!

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

first of all, what i need is a good client to play with again!!

This.

 

[Victoria Navarre]

The list of the features is endless, and it is absolutely incredible what COULD be implemented into our Ultima Online with not too much of an effort. It makes me wonder why the UO Developers were unable to make UO the most exciting and dynamic MMORPG ever, and keep adding more and more static and boring content instead.

I can tell you why. There are some in this forum that freak out if ANYTHING new is proposed and insist instead that bugs and pvp get all of the love instead.Any good idea will get stone-walled every time.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

What a funny thread... !

What did I tell you hawkeye ? You argued with me and now you completely turn around and start saying exactly like I do ?

Funny to see the failed troll attempts, so outwitted I almost felt bad.

Oh and Link, who received a favor from EA which is still a mysterious occurance he refuses to comment upon, arrives on four horses to defend EA !

This is extreemly funny to me, I knowfull well and have seen servers with over 10k players with much better dynamism online and running without a single bug.

But you guys have to face reality now... at my job we have over 2.5 million users, all of the customer service runs over web-based application of the simplest kind.

It crashes every day, many times a day, so much we look completely stupid to the customers. There is a whole team of devs for this web app... theres like 20 people running something simpler than a friend I know programmed alone, it's dealing with numbers and letters only.

And they fail miserably, in 3 months, the first letter we get from them is :

We fixed some text in the troubleshooting app... (and a list of about 30 corrections)

Then we see people all over the floor complaining that their correction was as simple and it was never made or even acknowledged !

3 months for 20 people to correct a simple HTML troubleshooting tool !

40 sentences of text was corrected , thats it !

They didn't even touch functionality ! Not a bit... I personally sent over 20 retroactions, which were obvious, NONE were adressed in 3 months !

You see ? I even with my LOW talent in JAVA, was able to find what made the whole freakin system bug... I send the exact part of the code that was wrong ! Not adressed !

This bug makes the company lose credibility, makes the employees go berserk (imagine filling a HUGE form with a client for 20 minutes and it simply crashes on you without backup, over 20 times a day)

This is a major loss for the company, all this time wasted.

But they don't care !

Do you see now ? They don't care unless the people force them to, as ONE voice.

Thats the only way, rofl again at the trolls and JC for defending EA.

 

[Victoria Navarre]

Intelligent monsters that change their fighting strategy depending on the opponent.
Monsters swarming out or going someplace, triggered by certain events (hunger, nightfall, and so on).
Animals running from players/hunters, just like real animals.
Birds that are actually flying and can only be hunted with bow and arrow.
Animals and monsters interacting with each other in a real biological cycle (distinguishing herbivore, carnivore, omnivore etc.).
Hunger, thirst, weather affecting players.
A complete agricultural system, allowing players to grow and harvest different kinds of crops, brewing ale, making wine and liquor, planting fruit trees, breeding animals etc. (And those goods actually have a use!)
Guards that go off duty and go into the tavern to drink.
Intelligent and dynamic spawns in a completely dynamic wildlife. Compared to this, a champion spawn is a joke.
A system for spreading different diseases and providing different methods of cure. (From a simple cold to being bitten by a Vampire and turning into one, which results in daylight damaging you.)
And many many more.

I am soooo loving the list you have here. Sadly,the devs wont touch that list with a ten foot pole. They have the idea that the only thing they can add content wise is more races and more skills to use. Devs,I ask you,please read a history book of the middle/dark ages. There was much more "knights of the round table" and "Royals in their court"....there were brewers and simple farmers also.

 

[frostbolt]

can someone pm me which emulated shard that list is from?

 

[UOKaiser]

I am soooo loving the list you have here. Sadly,the devs wont touch that list with a ten foot pole. They have the idea that the only thing they can add content wise is more races and more skills to use. Devs,I ask you,please read a history book of the middle/dark ages. There was much more "knights of the round table" and "Royals in their court"....there were brewers and simple farmers also.

Wrong book. They can't read that. They have to take it from ULtima which is not middle/dark ages its a different planet/plane of existence with robots,spaceships,techno mixed with sorcery and swords.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

The real problem is that when UO launched, most of us were on dial up. Adding so many dynamic systems into the game would have taken the game from 'crash-n-crawl' to 'just plain crash' back then. Since then, the focus of the game has changed. The idea of a realistic world is long gone. Next time you are in game, pick up your favorite weapon and try to attack someone with it in Tram. Doesn't work. If you cannot even stab someone, why should donkeys and chickens and rabbits run from Ettins? Why should cold and hunger matter?

Now, the focus is simply adding more and more content that requires the purchase of some half-a** expansion pack, or direct purchase of these items through UO's website. Pixel crack. A+B=C.

Eventually, everyone that cares will have all the times they want out of this latest waste of time and money expansion, and a new one will come along.

Rinse and repeat.

*yawn*

 

[Victoria Navarre]

I am soooo loving the list you have here. Sadly,the devs wont touch that list with a ten foot pole. They have the idea that the only thing they can add content wise is more races and more skills to use. Devs,I ask you,please read a history book of the middle/dark ages. There was much more "knights of the round table" and "Royals in their court"....there were brewers and simple farmers also.

Wrong book. They can't read that. They have to take it from ULtima which is not middle/dark ages its a different planet/plane of existence with robots,spaceships,techno mixed with sorcery and swords.

There is no reason they couldn't add the op's list of ideas to the game. Other than that all the pvp'ers(who think their way of playing UO is above those that don't pvp) would whine about having to carry more items,such as food, in their packs.

 

[UOKaiser]

There is no reason they couldn't add the op's list of ideas to the game. Other than that all the pvp'ers(who think their way of playing UO is above those that don't pvp) would whine about having to carry more items,such as food, in their packs.

Sure they can. Im just saying Ultima is not limited by a medieval theme.

 

[Victoria Navarre]

There is no reason they couldn't add the op's list of ideas to the game. Other than that all the pvp'ers(who think their way of playing UO is above those that don't pvp) would whine about having to carry more items,such as food, in their packs.

Sure they can. Im just saying Ultima is not limited by a medieval theme.

I agree but on the other hand I feel that the devs are shunning some things that are medieval. For what reason? Beats me but I would like to know.

 

[Vyal]

When I said the programmers for UO are script kiddies and don't know how to really program anything you must have thought I wasn't being real.

The only true programmers this game has ever had was the people who actually wrote the engine.

You can tell just from the new client the developers for one are not ready to develop anything on a large public scale & should never have been allowed to work on a game like this.

Hawkeye what those emu (FREE) servers have that we don't are dedicated developers and staff. Who are willing to try new things out to get new players to join their shards & it works too.
Basically they are just using server sided scripts but EA actually has the source code to the client although there have been some remakes of the client.

I thought it would be cool to see 2d ragdoll or some sorta physics system in play with UO push boxes by walking into them that type of thing. I have yet to see a good 2d ragdoll system

 

[Fink]

Some of those ideas are great.. not new, but great.. and, yes, some might require rebuilding server code from the ground up. EA will never pay for it, though, not when they can put minimal effort into a minor publish if they want to add something. They won't rewrite the entire book just to add another page, not when they can just staple it on the back.

But I think you can have all the realism in the world.. in the world.. and it won't mean anything until you accept extinction and permanent death.

I know, gem of immortality, life beyond life, etc.. but death defines life. It's the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence. It's all pretty meaningless when you can be resurrected and fully recovered and equipped within moments of dying, as if nothing happened.

You've been a real negative nancy lately, calm down sunshine.

But I have no doubt Mythic are stuck between a rock and a hard place, Spend money and HOPE you recoup your expenses or just provide limited support and get by on what you have available.

FYI, That 'server emulator' software could never power a shard as big as Atlantic, It has no subserver support and .NET applications EAT memory and CPU.

I think I can best respond with "lol wut?"

I was calm and, I thought, fairly positive when I posted. As for any trends in my posting of late, I wasn't aware that was under scrutiny, or relevant in this discussion. I think maybe you're projecting (your own?) emotions on my words. Perhaps I have said something you find upsetting. I'll try to better explain my points of view:

The developers have long lamented the spaghetti-code legacy of their predecessors. It would be lovely if everything was nice and neat and documented and could be periodically augmented without the usual cascade of bugs.

But the reality is EA (never has and) isn't going to pay for a total ground-up rebuild, and certainly not in the current economic climate. The accountants won't see the return on the investment. I don't think that is a "negative" assessment, as you say, simply a realistic one.

As for the specific functions of shard emulators, I don't pretend to know anything about those, so I will of course acquiesce to your experience.

I still think permanent death and extinction could be interesting elements of play, no hysteria or negativity or even "sunshine" implied, whatever that may mean. Of course many adjustments would be made, but you can't truly have gain without loss.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

The coding if you can't just plug in things, needs to be redone. When I started using computers it was just a blinking cursor. To get the computer to do something you had to learn to talk to it and having a vision of what you wanted was also a part of the coding.

When I learned about Java, I thought maybe that was the answer to actually create a thinking program because of my relationship with computers it has always been a dream of mine. In the Bible it says Man was created in God's imagine and likeness, so, I believe that man is destined to also create life.

Java is interesting because it learns like a child. You can teach it like a child with the basics of where it comes from like its' mother and father and love. By teaching it language you can communicate with it. With hardware you can create a conscience and unconscience mind. This dream is not just the work of one man but of mankind and his destiny.

If UO was to close tomorrow, all of the knowledge would not be lost. The game would carry on, but it would be within another world. I think some of the things or ideas of realism appeal to people because it affects them in real life. For example: A hunter could actually hunt in the game or someone who grows plants could plant things. These things immediately appeal to them because it reflects their real life.

So, if the basic coding is not functioning or allowing us to plug in these wonderful things, it needs to be reworked. You would think the creation of the world would be the physical aspect, which would be completely different from anything else. The problem is, I guess, if it lacks intelligence, the earth would not know how to react to rain, nor would it be able to change to floods. So, how much is even possible right now?

Another example would be a beaten path. When you walk over the ground the grass would become crushed under your feet. If a thousand people walked, it would turn into a path. So, alot of planning in the development of owning a house, say for example, if it were to become destroyed, from say flooding or fire, the player would have to have an understanding of what happens next. So, to do that you would have to change the way the game is designed to insure the player would not lose all their items or their land and be able to rebuild.

When you look at things in this much detail you realize how wonderful UO is. It really is a wonderful game and if EA doesn't develop it to its' potential, someone else will. They don't need the money, they don't wanna be the best, so they don't care. It's good enough for their purposes but you can see the technologies growing and soon you will see major break throughs in programming that will simply allow developers to plug things in. I would say in the next 10 years.

 

[Fink]

So, to do that you would have to change the way the game is designed to insure the player would not lose all their items or their land and be able to rebuild.

Erm?

You know you raised some good ideas there about having houses flooded or burnt down, but I don't see why "all their items" should necessarily survive. Fire tends to consume everything, even stuff that isn't considered combustible. Flood would certainly damage all sorts of things, at least on the ground floor. Then there is the structure itself, weakened by the damage, that would need rebuilding rather than risk collapse. Then there are tremors and quakes, tornadoes and so on.

I like it.

But classic prefabricated houses would need to be converted to a more dynamic essence, like custom houses. This way you could vary the damage done to various sections of a house and change the appearance of the pieces. If you want to re-use the foundation you'd have to reconstruct it with resources like stone or lumber.

 

[Kirthag]

When you look at things in this much detail you realize how wonderful UO is. It really is a wonderful game and if EA doesn't develop it to its' potential, someone else will. They don't need the money, they don't wanna be the best, so they don't care. It's good enough for their purposes but you can see the technologies growing and soon you will see major break throughs in programming that will simply allow developers to plug things in. I would say in the next 10 years.

Can kinda "plug in" already with Java. When I shelved my code I was working on a plugin for brewing, another for genetics (cross breeding llamas & dragons!), and one more for players using/owning building in static cities (some emus do that now... but not in java!).

All in all... it always comes down to finances. Passion is wonderful, dedication appreciated, but without hard numbers to support certain things (time in development, testing, alpha/beta, rewrites, public beta, rewrites, release, marketing, promotions, advertising) and to justify investments, corporate anything (EA, SquareSoft, my own employer) won't touch wonderful ideas.


Probably why I do a lot of my code experimentation off the clock.


My kingdom for a company that believe in research and development!!!!!

 

[Llewen]

Hobbyist and open source developers almost always create more interesting products than their professionally developed counterparts. I think there are a number of reasons. Here are a few:

- Professional developers are often working under very strict time constraints and are almost always under pressure to meet some deadline. The same is not true for hobbyist and open source developers.

- Professional developers are always concerned about how well their products will sell, and as such are almost always creating products which target the lowest common denominator.

- Professional developers are generally more concerned with creating something that is polished than they are with creating something that is unique and interesting.

- And here is probably the single biggest reason. Hobbyist and open source developers create and work on their product because they genuinely love their product, while no matter what they may say, professional developers are working primarily for the money. Money is a poor motivating factor when it comes to creating products that are unique and interesting.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Have any of you stopped to realize that maybe simpler is sometimes better and that's why UO has been around so long? Do you really want to fight a harrower that has enough AI to explosion flamestrike pain spike you insta dead whenever it wants? The way PvM in UO works is designed for simplistic AI, which is offset by stat/skill differences. Everyone is missing the true brilliance of UO in this forum...simplicity combined with complexity. Yes, the AI in UO is simplistic, but it is balanced with the complexity of building a template capable of handling one and or many monsters.

Let's say EA implemented new monster AI which gives spellcasters the ability to compose intelligent, and effective combos. An average monster already has more hit points, mana, dex, skills than you do, on top of decent AI. Monsters simply can't have both, as they would be nearly impossible to defeat.

With regard to the rest of the "upgrades" your suggesting, these all seem very pointless in the grand scheme of Ultima. Introducing these things to the game would go against the very fabric of what UO has always been about...good gameplay. It has never been about graphics or realism, it's about creating an environment that is fun to play in, not one that looks aesthetically pleasing. If this is what you're all seeking, I would suggest you quit now and go play a modern-day mmo such as WoW or AOC. Otherwise, spend your time suggesting improvements that would serve to make UO more FUN.

 

[Harlequin]

Now, I totally agree that there are some really cool player-run servers out there.

However, the "doing it on their spare time" is a bit misleading though, they actually spent alot time and effort on doing this. Unfetted passion and free reign often spur them to great heights. This holds true for UO devs as well, remember Draconi's winter wonderland?



Regarding the features you mentioned in the OP, most can be found in parts of the game or once upon a time. It's like someone gets a great idea, proceeds to implement a pilot run, next they know, there's a restructure and bam, new dev team.

The next team has to start from scratch again to look at the codes, and often have different ideas on what direction the game should go. that means certain ideas would be abandoned.

And that doesn't include implementing changes that has to be reverted due to unpopularity or due to them introducing other game affecting issues.

Then there's the biggest bang for the buck methodology. Managers want to see a new expansion that will bring in sales, not making UO a good wildlife simulation. That was what the devs were spending most of their time on. KR and SA.



It also seems that good deeds are often forgotten. Do people remember all the events that led up to SA?

Inu, Ricardo, Blackrock, armageddon, wisp, blackrock elementals, T2A blackrock infused areas, blackrock traders, haven exploding, haven reborn, moonglow shadowlord invasion, magincia invasion, magicia destruction, rubble!!, faction town invasion, shadownlord faction event, tokuno shadowlord invasion, the six, the crismson and platinum dragons, dawn, casca, melissa, sicarii, rebuilding magincia etc etc.

Not to mention things like stackables, gardening, runic, bod enhancements. Then there are other stuff like holidays (esp halloween), bank redesign, spring cleaning, AOS slime dye etc etc

Would I rather have these or would I rather they spend the time implementing diseases I can catch and birds that run away from me?



I mentioned earlier that some of the listed features can be found in parts in UO:

• Intelligent monsters that change their fighting strategy depending on the opponent.
  
  The only one that does this to a more recognizable extent is Travesty. Next are the spider champs and yamadon that employ different tactics against tamers/archers/mages. It's not much, but it's there. Air elementals and orc scouts try to kite you as well. One of those shelved for the time being ideas I guess.
  
  
• Monsters swarming out or going someplace, triggered by certain events (hunger, nightfall, and so on).
  
  Bedlam has named mobs who have minions that swarm together as a group. The souls in Magicia also have a swarming ability.
  
  
• Animals running from players/hunters, just like real animals.
  
  There's also the vorpal bunny and fire rabbit. Frightened orcs did that, but are extinct now I think. Most other mobs do try to run away when they redline. Again, there're the air elementals and orc scouts that try to kite you.
  
  
• Birds that are actually flying and can only be hunted with bow and arrow.
  
  This one would be simple to implement, but even right now when this happens, it would frustrate players no end when birds fly out to the sea and when swoop flies into the rocks...
  
  
• Animals and monsters interacting with each other in a real biological cycle (distinguishing herbivore, carnivore, omnivore etc.).
  
  Implemented, but dropped later as someone else posted. Besides not wanting to waste time tuning it, somewhere along the way, instead of using CPU cycles to make mobs go after 1 another, they implemented code that would freeze mobs when no players were around to save cpu cycles. There are still certain mobs that will attack each other on sight though, like terathans and ophidians.
  
  
• Hunger, thirst, weather affecting players.
  
  This would be interesting to see. For food, I remember in earlier Ultimas, you have to buy rations and they would be automatically consumed as you walk. Would be a nice good sink.
  
  
• A complete agricultural system, allowing players to grow and harvest different kinds of crops, brewing ale, making wine and liquor, planting fruit trees, breeding animals etc. (And those goods actually have a use!)
  
  They have done this with gardening and enhancements. Though more expanding on this would be nice. We have apples trees, but they can't be grown. We have coconut trees, but they no long give coconuts.
  
  I would love to see a breeding system too.
  
  
• Guards that go off duty and go into the tavern to drink.
  
  While none of the NPCs will ever let you see them loafing in the taverns, guards didn't used to hear you all the time in the early days. And they didn't 1 hit criminals either. Was changed due to complaints from players that were being attacked/stolen from. People tend to want guards to come immediately to protect them when they call. Someone under attack in an active guard zone and calling guards 10+ times in a town zone without anyone coming is going create tickets for the GMs or posts like "Major exploit bug! Guards are broken! DEVS, FIX IT!"
  
  
• Intelligent and dynamic spawns in a completely dynamic wildlife. Compared to this, a champion spawn is a joke.
  
  Need more info on this as I don't understand. You are referring to something differnt from point 1 right?
  
  
• A system for spreading different diseases and providing different methods of cure. (From a simple cold to being bitten by a Vampire and turning into one, which results in daylight damaging you.)
  
  Reminds me of the plague in WoW It's refreshing to see, but might not go down well with a lot of players. Imagine getting poisoned by a dozen different poisons regularly and each needing a different type of cure...

 

[Coldren]

Wrong, it is not an emulation, and the software our original servers are running on is Lua Script (to my knowledge). Lua is a very common language, and also quite structured. The only reason I can think of why nothing is changed is, that the scripts may be a total mess due to the constant change of developers.

However, it took a handful of people not too much time to totally re-engineer a bug-free Ultima Online using a modern script language in their spare time. In comparison, cleaning up the old Lua code seems like a manageable effort.

Just a small point - I'm fairly certain they are only using LUA scripting for the new clients. It's not what's running the server.

I used to know what that engine was called, and Draconi made mention of it, but for the life of me, I can't remember where or what it was called... I'm getting really peeved that I can't remember what it was called.


[Edit]

Nevermind, someone pointed out it was Wombat and C++... I think it's more custom code than Wombat, because I believe Wombat is primarily a graphic rendering engine, but it does list it has server and networking code according to this site.

 

[AesSedai]

- I've known the word Wombat in relation to UO for many years. It wasn't until recently that I saw a movie using that word as an acronym... It made me laugh & hope that's not why UO chose that word, since EA already owned OSI at the time of its creation.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I want to clarify that in no way I am thinking that the developers are doing a bad job. I absolutely respect the effort they have put into the new content and all the events. I think that they are more victims of circumstance, and that they probably are not allowed to do what they would like to do.

I just wanted to point out what would be possible, and that it is sad that instead of improving the game's quality, it has been made more complex and big, and 90% of the content isn't even used by 5% of the players.

 

[canary]

I want to clarify that in no way I am thinking that the developers are doing a bad job.

I personally vote 'hit or miss' in regards to them. I think the current silence speaks VOLUMES about their lack of passion and/ or commitment to the game (c'mon, CatHat responded to a LOT of players and he was just a freakin' ARTIST!). I am sure there are some that I would say otherwise (Messana comes to mind) but the current crop of developers are not really winning me over.

Then again, after they let Draconi go, imo they might have just as well peed on the game.

 

[Damien Softstep]

I have spent the last 2 weeks examining the source code of an Ultima Online server emulation. (Basically, a few people re-engineered UO from scratch using the prgramming language C#, and created a server emulation which has 95% of the functionality of an productive UO server.)

When I dug through the code and checked out some examples of what other people already programmed in their spare time, I was amazed and shocked at the same time:

• Intelligent monsters that change their fighting strategy depending on the opponent.
• Monsters swarming out or going someplace, triggered by certain events (hunger, nightfall, and so on).
• Animals running from players/hunters, just like real animals.
• Birds that are actually flying and can only be hunted with bow and arrow.
• Animals and monsters interacting with each other in a real biological cycle (distinguishing herbivore, carnivore, omnivore etc.).
• Hunger, thirst, weather affecting players.
• A complete agricultural system, allowing players to grow and harvest different kinds of crops, brewing ale, making wine and liquor, planting fruit trees, breeding animals etc. (And those goods actually have a use!)
• Guards that go off duty and go into the tavern to drink.
• Intelligent and dynamic spawns in a completely dynamic wildlife. Compared to this, a champion spawn is a joke.
• A system for spreading different diseases and providing different methods of cure. (From a simple cold to being bitten by a Vampire and turning into one, which results in daylight damaging you.)
• And many many more.

The list of the features is endless, and it is absolutely incredible what COULD be implemented into our Ultima Online with not too much of an effort. It makes me wonder why the UO Developers were unable to make UO the most exciting and dynamic MMORPG ever, and keep adding more and more static and boring content instead.

Who needs another dungeon full of stupid and predictable monsters? Who needs another landmass? Who needs more creatures standing there doing nothing? Britannia itself is completely deserted (only filled with player houses), and so are the Lost Lands and Tokuno.

Sure, many of the new features are great. But mostly they are targeted at feeding us with new content and pixels, instead of improving the quality of the game.

WHY? IT WOULDN'T EVEN BE VERY DIFFICULT!

P.S.: When I read all the fantastic ideas being discussed on this board, I now know that all this can actually be done, and most of it wouldn't even be very complicated.

I think this thread might have something to do with uo being underdeveloped...

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=178873

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

Then again, after they let Draconi go, imo they might have just as well peed on the game.

QFT!