In stead of wasting time trying to do a CYA or find out who what why when, why not just go fix it? I hate corporate mindsets.
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Where the heck is the EC male paperdoll that was promised in DECEMBER?
- Thread starter canary
- Start date
- Watchers 3
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How do you feel about people trying to hold you to promises you never made?
If something is broken why does it matter if anyone said they would fix it or not? He knows now , go address the issue. End of story.
Are you saying its ok to ignore it if it turns out no one said they would fix it?
In fairness, the development team has been aware of the dislike of the male paperdoll for quite some time, and at least back as far as the revamp of the female paperdoll, a similar revamp for the male paperdoll was supposedly in the works. Whether that's this past December or two-and-a-half years ago is sort of academic to the issue at hand, which is that the male paperdoll was indicated that it was in the pipeline to be fixed at some point in the past, and it's been literally years since it was initially identified as a trouble spot.
I'll be honest, people in the industry have been doing quality graphics (both 2D and 3D) for years now... I'm uncertain why the UO avatars that have come since 2D are just not up to par with decent quality.
My vocalization along with countless others has been all over the boards here and elsewhere about the severe UGLINESS of the male paperdoll......
I HATE looking at my character in the EC ..... what I could imagine in the 2d client of my character being a very handsome buff Male Drow Elf... can not happen when I look at his paperdoll in the EC..... Honestly he looks to be somewhere far over the hill in need of a walker with a serious case of dunlap.... it ain't pretty.
Now I like canary recall being told that the Male doll would be redone.... where I recall that from I really don't know... and I can't say that I recall... perhaps it was somewhere other than stratics.... though I doubt it highly since i don't much read other boards anymore.
What I do know is.... there has been quite a bit of decent art coming out of the team of late... and Yes I too am impressed with the new gargish art items.... though I have my opinions of the EC art.. Mostly sprites.... like my Greater Dragon going from being Greater to being greater..... Now neither he nor I appreciate that..... nor do I like the hiryu being plucked....
But more than anything I hate my characters paperdoll... Hard to get yourself into character when you can't stand to look at him.
Was bad enough you "fixed" the bug that didn't exist and now I have to spend my days with a dead deer on my head..... but to be hideously ugly to boot is upsetting.....
I've been hoping for a new doll since the release... haven't seen anything yet...
Oh and for the record Petra Fyde.... I'm not fond my female character turned into cheap tricks either... Since many of my female characters are smart sensible survivors.... who never ever give the "come hither"....
N
northwoodschopper
Guest
who cares if the male paperdolls are ugly, we're suppose to judge by personality, right? we're not that shallow, are we? 
the 'hunched-pushing-a-lawnmower' pose kinda grown on me. shame that they changed the female doll from it.
the 'hunched-pushing-a-lawnmower' pose kinda grown on me. shame that they changed the female doll from it.
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Umm just to throw in a little bit here, there is[/b] a different male paperdoll available in the EC. Unfortunately, it seems to be limited to EMs and maybe GMs in use. The pose is noticeably different than either the player character male or female poses.
Just wondering if anyone else has caught this one or has any opinion on it compared to the current one.
Umm just to throw in a little bit here, there is[/b] a different male paperdoll available in the EC. Unfortunately, it seems to be limited to EMs and maybe GMs in use. The pose is noticeably different than either the player character male or female poses.
Just wondering if anyone else has caught this one or has any opinion on it compared to the current one.
...
Umm just to throw in a little bit here, there is[/b] a different male paperdoll available in the EC. Unfortunately, it seems to be limited to EMs and maybe GMs in use. The pose is noticeably different than either the player character male or female poses.
Just wondering if anyone else has caught this one or has any opinion on it compared to the current one.
I've noticed it also, I dislike the hands but the face is okay.. We'll need to ask the EMs to go naked for us to get a proper view on it though!
Absolutely no offense taken, your question is well phrased - I'll do my best to respond:
Well yes, we have artists on UO. Generally with games development, you have a core set of internal artists that you task with doing things that either require a more intimate knowledge of how things work in your game, or would potentially prove to be what we call "Black Hole" tasks, meaning that there is the potential that they will run over the allotted time scheduled due to having to send them back for revisions multiple times.
The female paper doll items were sent out to be redone well before UO development was brought under Mythics guidance, and the internal artists at the time were already on other priority tasks, and we had it within our budget at the time to get those done by external artists, so we did. I'm not sure why we didn't do the male at the time as well, but I suspect it was a budget issue since obviously that would have been a prime opportunity to get both of those issues resolved.
In response to your wanting to understand the art procedure, I'll give you the rough layout of the general process, this applies to game development in general, regardless if you're 3D Realms or Blizzard. It all boils down to time, versus resources, versus money.
When you get the greenlight to make a game or expansion, you have to commit to a delivery date and an amount of money that your project is going to cost your company. Then you make your list of features, then the leads battle it out to determine which features should make it in, and then, which CAN make it in by the delivery time you had to commit to. Now you tell the guy that you committed to a deadline that by the end of the project, we're going to have those features complete.
Now this is the critical part: based on this list of features your schedule starts forming and tasks get created for all the disciplines (art, engineering, design, QA, etc.) and when each feature will get done, who's doing it, and what tasks rely on which other ones to be completed first, etc. It's at this point Maalox and prescribed anti-anxiety medication inters the picture, but we'll skip that part. But at this point you can see all the tasks that are required to make those features a reality, and how much time you have to get them done in. Here's the rub: when certain tasks start taking longer than expected, it starts making the feature that depends on it unstable, not to mention that since the task is running long, it's taking time away from another task that is required by a completely different feature, thus potentially putting multiple features at risk.
It's inevitable sometimes that you have to make the "good enough" call in order to not put the entire project at risk. What sucks is when you have to make that call when what you're OK'ing isn't good enough, but risking the project is an even worse scenario.
Now I'm not saying this in order to make any excuse for anything, I'm just simply putting out there the realities of game development, and the calls you have to sometimes make in order to keep moving forward.
Hope this helps shed some light on what you were asking, thanks for the great post!
-Grimm
It's possible I mentioned something about the blurry animations, but I wasn't a member of the environment team during KR... so I'm not sure what that would have been in reference to.
Thanks,
-Grimm
Grimm,
I definitely appreciate the response! Having worked on the fringe of the industry, believe me I understand the "if we had X amount of time, we could do it a lot better, but since we have Y amount of time, well, this will have to do" mentality. I was senior web developer/graphic designer for a major name in gaming for a decade, and yeah, I completely understand (and sympathize) with everyone who gets put through that kind of ringer. On the plus side, when you go to work in a more regular paced environment, people begin to think you're a miracle worker because you've already learned to fly by the seat of your pants.
I did have one additional question though, based on:
I mean, obviously there's stuff being worked on at all times (else there'd be less people working on the game, I'm sure), so clearly moving forward has to be kept in line with tackling existing stuff, but I sort of see it much like the publishes that introduce new content while fixing bugs. The visual issues are sort of like the artistic bugs of the game. Is time devoted to fixing things like that tileset? I know there were fixes done to the Codex of Virtue (didn't quite get it right, but it improved) and the silver saplings, but those were handled right in the same moment they were released (round about).
To me, the best of both worlds would be introduce new stuff while maybe taking a particular pressing issue (they used to call 'em "crowd pleasers" back in the day) and updating it. I mean, even if it was tackling one tileset per publish, in the course of a year, it could mean a vastly improved visual experience.
Anyhow, thanks again for your response, and while we both know it's unlikely to happen, here's hoping for a calmer pace.
I definitely appreciate the response! Having worked on the fringe of the industry, believe me I understand the "if we had X amount of time, we could do it a lot better, but since we have Y amount of time, well, this will have to do" mentality. I was senior web developer/graphic designer for a major name in gaming for a decade, and yeah, I completely understand (and sympathize) with everyone who gets put through that kind of ringer. On the plus side, when you go to work in a more regular paced environment, people begin to think you're a miracle worker because you've already learned to fly by the seat of your pants.
I did have one additional question though, based on:
Of particular interest to me are things like SA tilesets (specifically the one I referenced previously) where the fixes are pretty minor (having actually taken the time to do them, and graphic design experience, I've got at least a handle on the time that would need be devoted), I'm curious how bringing some of the "good enough" stuff up-to-date works.
I mean, obviously there's stuff being worked on at all times (else there'd be less people working on the game, I'm sure), so clearly moving forward has to be kept in line with tackling existing stuff, but I sort of see it much like the publishes that introduce new content while fixing bugs. The visual issues are sort of like the artistic bugs of the game. Is time devoted to fixing things like that tileset? I know there were fixes done to the Codex of Virtue (didn't quite get it right, but it improved) and the silver saplings, but those were handled right in the same moment they were released (round about).
To me, the best of both worlds would be introduce new stuff while maybe taking a particular pressing issue (they used to call 'em "crowd pleasers" back in the day) and updating it. I mean, even if it was tackling one tileset per publish, in the course of a year, it could mean a vastly improved visual experience.
Anyhow, thanks again for your response, and while we both know it's unlikely to happen, here's hoping for a calmer pace.
*sighs*
Okay, I've known that the male paperdoll issue hadn't been mentioned in UOHoC for quite some time.. Since well before the release of SA in fact. However, Canary's issue with the paperdoll is legitimate and the EC male is a hideously deformed mass of pixels.
That being said, I do know who last spoke of the EC's male paperdoll and indicated it was being worked on.
Gimmy, hun, it was you.
In an interview conducted by AirmidChet and posted February 25, 2010:
An Interview with JP "GrimmOmen" Harrod
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=182081
*coughs*
So. There you have it. Sorry, Grimm.
While it hasn’t been six months, it has nearly been four. However, that can be eclipsed by the 2.5 years since KR was 'released.'
While you are jabbing the art monkeys with a cattle prod to move the process along, take a look at the ruined tapestry from last Halloween and the holiday garlands in the EC. Then prod the monkeys to fix these problems as well. (Edit: I refer you back to this thread for examples: http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=168609)
Oh, while you’re at it, you should have them increase the default height of the SA wall mirrors as well. At the moment, they can't go higher than the middle of the wall. One doesn't look in the mirror to see one's feet...
Well, the point of my question was asking about the promise mentioned in the thread title. I don't read a promise in anything you included in your post. As a matter of fact, it was in response to a question of what would I like to do if given the time - and I appreciate you including that in your post to keep my response in perspective.
That being said, it's fair to say that when you hear that something is being worked on, you'd expect to see it - I get that, and I'd expect the same thing. Honestly, I had expected to to have had an update on the male paper doll long since now. But, simply and frankly, I just haven't had the time to complete working on it.
Is it something I've forgotten about? No. Is it something I've abandoned? Certainly not. But is sit something I've completed? Unfortunately, no. Know, though, that it is something that I hope to be able to finish and get updated.
-Grimm
F
Fink
Guest
*stands and looks around the room*
"Hello. My name is Fink, and I am a recovering games graphics developer."
What I'm about to suggest is probably frought with legal entanglements (how ANYTHING ever gets done in corporate American baffles me), but here goes..
How about have the in-house art team focus on new content, such as SA or whatever current/pending expansion is in the works, and throw the caretaking of existing art open to the player community? Phrase it as a fan art contest, a competitive-entry internship, whatever keeps the lawyers happy, not really my concern. Name credit, game credit, reward them how you will.
I suppose what would be of concern to most people is the following, whatever these terms may actually mean:
How will you get consistent artwork?
Will it remain true to Ultima Online?
Will the quality be professional?
To which you could say, "Has this always been the case in the past with outsourcing and budgetary constraints?" I would say no, not in spite of understanding why, but because I do, and I sympathise. I would argue that players have no time/money constraints, are truly passionate about the game, and are well versed in the "look" required. All they need is direction.
I realise this would be an organisational task and not a simple one, but I think it could work out.
"Hello. My name is Fink, and I am a recovering games graphics developer."
What I'm about to suggest is probably frought with legal entanglements (how ANYTHING ever gets done in corporate American baffles me), but here goes..
How about have the in-house art team focus on new content, such as SA or whatever current/pending expansion is in the works, and throw the caretaking of existing art open to the player community? Phrase it as a fan art contest, a competitive-entry internship, whatever keeps the lawyers happy, not really my concern. Name credit, game credit, reward them how you will.
I suppose what would be of concern to most people is the following, whatever these terms may actually mean:
How will you get consistent artwork?
Will it remain true to Ultima Online?
Will the quality be professional?
To which you could say, "Has this always been the case in the past with outsourcing and budgetary constraints?" I would say no, not in spite of understanding why, but because I do, and I sympathise. I would argue that players have no time/money constraints, are truly passionate about the game, and are well versed in the "look" required. All they need is direction.
I realise this would be an organisational task and not a simple one, but I think it could work out.
That’s more explicit than a promise, as it implies actual action is being taken and a result will be delivered. However, the caveat 'works' at the end of the phrase is akin to the much dreaded and much over used "Soon" (tm) that the UO team is lamentably known for.
The gargish items were brought out recently and they look good. Why for then is an issue that people actually want addressed being perpetually delayed?
I know all about scope creep and how a project's budget dictates what happens, but I also know that if you ignore your customer's needs for too long they will eventually part company.
The male paper doll is universally reviled amongst the supporters of the EC, and Mythic had to be aware of this when they ported the UI graphics from KR into the EC.
The EC will continue to fail to win converts when issues like this drag on, and on, and on... For as many people who say "its not the graphics that make the game," the rest of us know that eye candy is what someone is presented with first - first impressions and all.
Please, go to Cal and get the time to work on this and the holiday art flubs.
Also -please, please, get someone to QA new art in the EC so it sits on/in a tile exactly as it does in the CC.
E
Evlar
Guest
This, certainly.
When you have arguably the most loyal core player base of any online game, why not take some advantage of people who really care about the game and would be more than happy to help.
Hell, there's free shards out there, with people who've created some excellent content, in their own time. This shows it can be done.
T
Tukaram
Guest
I've never had a problem with the paper doll in the EC.
The fact that every change to the background and avatars make it look more and more like 2D is getting on my nerves though. I've been playing off and on since 1997 and Grimm should check out the 3D from the LBR era. Some of the monsters were silly (but so is everything in Doom) but it was the best paper doll, and best background, movement etc that UO ever had.
In my opinion... and everyone is entitled to my opinion.
The fact that every change to the background and avatars make it look more and more like 2D is getting on my nerves though. I've been playing off and on since 1997 and Grimm should check out the 3D from the LBR era. Some of the monsters were silly (but so is everything in Doom) but it was the best paper doll, and best background, movement etc that UO ever had.
In my opinion... and everyone is entitled to my opinion.
C
canary
Guest
Agreed. I guess that is what I meant by 'promise', and thank you, Martyna, for pointing out that it was that interview instead of the HoC that Grimm made the statement. Oversight on my part but yes, Grimm stated himself that the male paperdoll is being redone. Not 'we'll get to it', but 'we are in the process of doing it' (ie male paper doll revamps ARE in the works', not 'maybe someday once we get some time in 2013').
There is another thing I COULD say, but due to the RoC I am unable to post it (due to it being a PM). I have, however, forwarded to to Petra, just so someone knows I'm just not pulling this stuff out of my booty.
C
canary
Guest
You've had since 2007.
For God's sake, the UO team has STATED they've been aware of the need for a redone male paperdoll since BETA of KR. The ladies had their redraw and the men were GOING to be redone.
Three years later, we are STILL waiting.
Really?
A
AesSedai
Guest
- I hope this is not what happens whenever a Dev decides to be nice and give a glimpse into their personal thoughts regarding what they would like to be bringing to UO.
I find it quite entertaining to hear what are on the Devs minds. I would hate to think they may feel they can't share their thoughts / ideas with us because some will consider them to be set-in-stone promises...
(Yes I too would like to see the male and female graphics adjusted in KR... but that is not my point, here.)
I find it quite entertaining to hear what are on the Devs minds. I would hate to think they may feel they can't share their thoughts / ideas with us because some will consider them to be set-in-stone promises...
- Did you take into context the end of the question that TheGrimmOmen was responding to? His response was nothing akin to a promise. It was a quite appropriate response to the question. Kinda like a hypothetical question / answer situation, nothing more.
(Yes I too would like to see the male and female graphics adjusted in KR... but that is not my point, here.)
Reading comprehension fail for him and you, sorry.
His statement wasn’t hypothetical, he answered a question about what he'd like to do with comments about his desires AND about what was being done at the time. "in the works" is a present tense colloquialism for "in progress" or "being worked on" - this implies that the male paper doll was actually being worked on in February.
E
Evlar
Guest
I think they're busy learning Chinese...
*safety wink*
*safety wink*
A
AesSedai
Guest
- Maybe you are correct and you know better than he does as to what he was saying. Maybe you are correct and your comprehension of the question and answer is the only possible way it could be. I've been wrong before and I will be again. I do stand behind the point I tried to make a few posts ago.
...
As much as we ALL would like a more attractive male paperdoll in the EC, I think they need to take care of a *few* more issues first (not the least of which is the horrible resolution the REST of the game's graphics (except terrain) run in at the moment).
I guess IMO the male paperdoll image is pretty low down the chart of "list of things to fix, tweak, or change in th EC in order of importance".
As for "in the works", that's a pretty vague statement which really doesn't mean that "It will be done by X time" or "There is a physical version we haven't rolled out yet". "In the works can mean anywhere from "on the list of things to do" all the way through "It's in testing for next Patch".
As much as we ALL would like a more attractive male paperdoll in the EC, I think they need to take care of a *few* more issues first (not the least of which is the horrible resolution the REST of the game's graphics (except terrain) run in at the moment).
I guess IMO the male paperdoll image is pretty low down the chart of "list of things to fix, tweak, or change in th EC in order of importance".
As for "in the works", that's a pretty vague statement which really doesn't mean that "It will be done by X time" or "There is a physical version we haven't rolled out yet". "In the works can mean anywhere from "on the list of things to do" all the way through "It's in testing for next Patch".
Actually, "in the works" means that it's actively being worked on. I agree that it does not include a finish date, but it also doesn't mean "we're planning on it." I guess the real question is just how long should a revamp to the male paperdoll take? Whatever that figure is, I somehow don't estimate it at being four months or many years.
On the other hand, I also agree with you that there are certainly larger issues with the graphics and the EC... There appears to have been a change in how wall textures work in the last patch, which in my opinion is a step in the right direction. The wall textures are finally acting like textures and zooming much better than they ever have before. They'd probably gain something from a hi-res render but since all the original assets vanished in Texas, it'd require redoing them.
Whatever they do, I hope that they start with making decisions that include ensuring that the look and feel of UO are not sacrificed like they were when the KR client was launched. KR's graphics reminded me of a graphical update that EverQuest did where my dark haired elf suddenly became a blond; on the other hand, the update DID increase the texture resolution WITHOUT losing the look and feel of the game. The textures were higher resolution, but clearly of the same original textures.
We both know that the only true way of fixing the EC art is to redraw it at a higher native resolution, or make the world based on polygons with skins that closely match the CC counterparts so the haters will STFU.
Is that going to happen? Doubtful, unless they are lying to us - which wouldn't make sense seeing how much the environment art is complained about.
Furthermore, seeing as how the art team is only responsible for art - not coding, they should have plenty of time based on how often we actually get new art. The gargoyle items are relatively small, numerous, but small.
What IS the art team doing?
True, "in the works" doesn't imply and end date - but it does imply action not mere thought. I can think about world peace, but that doesn't mean irs 'in the works.'
This is part of the problem with the current Dev Team. They don't tell us what’s in progress until they toss it on TC, then toss it on Origin a day later without any QA. They are the only production house who keeps their subscribers in the dark. Whether that is EA neurosis or fear of commitment, its unprofessional.
That being said, it was nice to see a Dev actually posting on here and giving us information without trying to be cutsey. Kudos.
...
Yeah, Grimm is one of the good ones, Axel has been doing a damn good job too keeping up with our gripes over on the EC forum... last patch set really showed that he has been keeping tabs on us IMO.
As for the artwork... I'd be all for seeing a batch of pieces here and there being upgraded every patch run or so instead of doing it all at once, just something to show some progress in that regard... but then I'm biased in that way because I run at a pretty high resolution setting and have the game window strecthed the entire 23in widescreen (no blackspace) and tend to zoom in and out quite often depending on situation.
Yeah, Grimm is one of the good ones, Axel has been doing a damn good job too keeping up with our gripes over on the EC forum... last patch set really showed that he has been keeping tabs on us IMO.
As for the artwork... I'd be all for seeing a batch of pieces here and there being upgraded every patch run or so instead of doing it all at once, just something to show some progress in that regard... but then I'm biased in that way because I run at a pretty high resolution setting and have the game window strecthed the entire 23in widescreen (no blackspace) and tend to zoom in and out quite often depending on situation.
Since 2007? EC wasn't out in 2007, nor in 2008, it was released sometime in mid-late 2009. And there have most likely a lot more important stuff Grim HAD to work on since the "promise." You make it sound like the devs get to pick and choose what they want to work on.
Welllll... first, the EC uses the same paperdoll as the KR client did; it's been an issue for quite sometime.
Second... uh... yes, the Devs do get to "pick and choose" what they work on at some level. Someone sits down and decides what the priorities are, and passes those along.
And, again, the primary topic of the thread is something that's been "being worked on" for quite some time now.
E
Evlar
Guest
您對盡可能多的機會看到新的紙娃娃在未來幾個月內，因為 EA有沒有出賣給中國公司...哎呀！
Ahh, well shows how much I know then. lol
I didn't really play the KR client much so didn't know the artwork was the same.
C
canary
Guest
Err, KR was out since 2007. The paperdoll has been AROUND since 2007. People hatred it and the team has been saying it was going to be tweaked was AROUND the end of beta (I know; I was on the boards).
As from the interview, Grimm DID say it was being tackled. Not 'maybe'... he stated it was being worked on.
It's time to man up, UO art team, and finally do what you gotta do. Seriously, there is zero excuse for your lackluster work (or work ethic, whatever).
And the difference between Blizzard and EA is that if you dont reach your aim within the time, Blizzard accepts it, restructing it and redevelop it until it is really ready for release, instead of releasing it unfinished.
Iam not angry and i think you are a really respectable Dev posting this here, but i cant understand how the whole development of the new client is planed?
I cant understand why such easy things need so much time to fix, while other Interface things and new animations are implemented without limit.
Why got the redesgined KR art be removed and older art get in? Why looks the KR client much clearer than the EC now?
And another thing which is really important for me, how are getting such things like the blackarea bug and the new paperdoll close bug through the QA process?
I Mythic QA exists at all, it consists of 3 myopic tortoises and a dead goldfish.
That’s the only excuse for the plethora of brain-dead bugs getting out the last half dozen publish cycles.
Mythic QA blows.
I think what this thread needs is a little of this.
[youtube]jQ96rfEtrcU[/youtube]
This Dev-bashing session is hereby closed.
- Status