What is pvp?

[Stealth Caster]

Since I have been on siege I see all kinds of whining and complaining about players wanting a change of certain skills, mainly taming and stealth. The main reasoning I see is that people say it is not true pvp. Well I ask then if it is not what is?

People, like to say that tamers are just nothing more than pvm. I disagree. To me pvp is the same as human vs human. Which that is what you are doing if the person that is controlling the pet is a human. PvM, in my opinion is human vs AI or computer. So why do people insist that you are not a true pvper if you use a tamer? Is it because tamers (pets) are too strong?

I think before you start attacking a template or saying what the problem is with pvp we need to know what the definition of pvp is. Then once you have a definition of pvp, then what skills are for pvp and what is not.

I would like to see other people's answer on this and please defend your answer. Just don't say it isn't pvp and leave it at that. Defend your answers! Just curious what everyone has to say on this.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

My issue with stealth is that it's unbalanced... I pretty much equate smoke bombs to back when recalling from a fight before beneficial acts were put in and why it bothered so many players. It's a stupid oversight by the dev team.

It sucks and has no place in this game. It is for the element of surprize or for passing by undetected... it is not a free *get out of jail* card when you're getting your ass kicked so far inwards you can taste your own [censored].


My issue with taming is that the pets controlled are geared for high end PvM and not for PvP... again, it is unbalanced.


Couple the two and you have a lot of people who are sick and tired of other players taking advantage of this crap... because it's well, gimpy as [censored].


Clear enough for you?

 

[Stealth Caster]

Why are pets geared towards high end pvm and not pvp? Because of what reasoning? A human still has to control them right? You are playing the player, he just chooses to fight with pets. To me that is no different than a mage using spells. He is not actually fighting you it is the magic.

The whole taming thing is not broke, there are only a few pets that are too strong right? So if you tweaked the pet skills down it would be ok? As for the smoke bomb thing, Hey I do believe that ninjas back in the day or at least in folk lore used stuff like that to get away, so if you get rid of that then get rid of ninjitsu, which would suck. And if a person wants to be able to use smoke bombs then they have to waste I believe 50 skill points in ninjitsu just to use it right?

 

[imported_Goron]

I agree with your point on stealth.

But I disagree on taming. A non stealth tamer is toast anyday. I just need to lure the pets and they dead. if they pet ball em, well, then that means they are not hitting me And when u see the tamer coming, there is little to no surprise and its hard to get ambushed when the pets appear.

If you honestly have that much trouble against non stealth tamers... well...

 

[Stealth Caster]

Exactly Goron, I have seen a number of posts that say a tamer is no big deal. That you can lure the pets away and then deal with the tamer easily. I think a tamer would have a much more difficult time pking someone than most templates. I really think that a tamer is stronger for the defense than offense.

 

[Paul the Samurai]

unless the tamer only sits at the gate, at the bank, always in the GZ waiting with a dismount bola, then there it is extremely hard.

 

[imported_Goron]

Alas, if thats the case... why fight them?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Why are pets geared towards high end pvm and not pvp? Because of what reasoning? A human still has to control them right? You are playing the player, he just chooses to fight with pets. To me that is no different than a mage using spells. He is not actually fighting you it is the magic.

The whole taming thing is not broke, there are only a few pets that are too strong right? So if you tweaked the pet skills down it would be ok? As for the smoke bomb thing, Hey I do believe that ninjas back in the day or at least in folk lore used stuff like that to get away, so if you get rid of that then get rid of ninjitsu, which would suck. And if a person wants to be able to use smoke bombs then they have to waste I believe 50 skill points in ninjitsu just to use it right?

[/ QUOTE ]

The simple point of it is that stealth and ninjitsu don't belong on a tamer's template. Period.

It's beyond lame.

 

[Calibretto]

Agreed.


The new skill ninja and changes to stealth make tamers way out of control.

 

[imported_OldAsTheHills]

<blockquote><hr>

Since I have been on siege I see all kinds of whining and complaining about players wanting a change of certain skills, mainly taming and stealth. The main reasoning I see is that people say it is not true pvp. Well I ask then if it is not what is?

People, like to say that tamers are just nothing more than pvm. I disagree. To me pvp is the same as human vs human. Which that is what you are doing if the person that is controlling the pet is a human. PvM, in my opinion is human vs AI or computer. So why do people insist that you are not a true pvper if you use a tamer? Is it because tamers (pets) are too strong?

I think before you start attacking a template or saying what the problem is with pvp we need to know what the definition of pvp is. Then once you have a definition of pvp, then what skills are for pvp and what is not.

I would like to see other people's answer on this and please defend your answer. Just don't say it isn't pvp and leave it at that. Defend your answers! Just curious what everyone has to say on this.

[/ QUOTE ]
*sighs, this is going to be long.*
Pvp is when someone inside the game chooses to kill another player's character.

When Pvp as a game event occurs without a reason is just the game type:
Cowboy and Indians game. Killing for the sake of killing.

If Pvp includes looting as the only reason to Pvp then the game type is:
Cops and Robbers. The game goal is to loot something. It apparently does not
matter if the loot is needed by the looter on Siege Perilous.

Very few players in UO rise to a higher reason to Pvp, the highest reason to Pvp
is the game type: Civilization vs Barbarians.
This game takes too much cooperation, Siege Perilous has mostly players who are
Self-interested only in themselves.

Today, most opponents inside the game are using the reason to Pvp based upon
the principle that their opponent's method of play is poor but sucessful! How
players play Pvp is the goal of this game type. If one side can get their opponents to give up their style of play then a WIN occurs, along with bragging
rights that their method of play is superior. A lot of message board Pvp is based
upon this type of game.
This game type is: I am better than you!

I should note that Factions has the game type: Capture the Flag.
At least Factions has something more than the 'I am better than you!' type game. Faction winning towns has some advantages inside the game.

Also, some players are playing a form of game type called: King of the Hill.
Essentially, the King wants someone to knock them off by Pvping. This is
just a variation of the "I am better than you!' game.

There is also, some players are playing a form of game type called: Monopoly.
This is sort of 'King of the Hill' game but it is usually amounts to just controlling
some valuable resource. Yes, raids upon Champions spawns is part of Monopoly
on Siege Perilous.

Each player on Siege Perilous is what they do! What they do is the goal of their
private game. Once a player chooses that in-game goal; then, that player must
use whatever skills needed to achieve a WIN.

I really have no reason to fault what skills players choose. But, it does not
mean I have to play the other players game! Also, you do not need to have
the popular method of doing Pvping to WIN! Even I sometimes accidently kill
an opponent!

The Developers should really not listen to any of the complaints about skills,
it is just sour grapes or people want the absolute edge of everyone.

My advice to all players : Play your own game, and shut up about the other guy!

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[Paul the Samurai]

you forgot one more type of PvP

hunting blues in the wilderness, it is the hardest "monster" to hunt, because it has the best intelligence, it also adds a thrill like no other because it is "a live" one. No current computer AI comes close.

thats why I play UO

 

[Guest]

In my humble opinion true PvP is cover yourself with small woodland creatures and poke someone with a sharp stick.
Unfortunatly the gods of OSI decided to make this impossible since you must rely on items instead of skill now.

 

[Guest]

Once upon a time, all I needed was an heavy x bow and a gm made halley, a cool calm head, to layeth the smacketh down, ie.. pwnage. *

* Won some lost some..twas to me more fun pvping then, though *back in the day* but that UO no longer exists.

 

[Lorddog]

I think ninja smoke bombs use your hiding skill for you to hide. then you would need stealth to move so it isnt just 50 pts but around 210 min points (50, 80, 80)

 

[imported_Death of Hemp]

<blockquote><hr>

Why are pets geared towards high end pvm and not pvp? Because of what reasoning? A human still has to control them right? You are playing the player, he just chooses to fight with pets. To me that is no different than a mage using spells. He is not actually fighting you it is the magic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll just say one of a thousand things I could to save your eyeballz =)
How can you compare one mage to two pets who cast twice as many spells and are able to cast from several screens away, not to mention the person controlling them can have magery!

It's like a mage vs a mage who commands two other uber mages that can do things no player mage can do. Now consider the corruption of your armor and deadly poison and the huge melee damage which you can throw on top of the two uber mages doing things a player mage cant do all the while being controlled by another player mage.......etc etc etc

It is possible to kill a tamer one vs one by luring pets and using summons, but you're not gonna do it against a well trained tamer using smoke bombs and pet balls. I'll put up a million gold on behalf of Dyno or Slevin against anyone who can kill them in a duel, using a non tamer temp. Lemme guess, now we're gonna hear some BS about just because its overwhelming in a duel doesn't mean its not fair pvp, lol.

 

[TeleV]

<blockquote><hr>

The new skill ninja and changes to stealth make tamers way out of control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen....we agree on same thing.

 

[Stealth Caster]

Excellent post OldAsTheHills!! I couldnt agree more!

 

[imported_Death of Hemp]

<blockquote><hr>

The Developers should really not listen to any of the complaints about skills,
it is just sour grapes or people want the absolute edge of everyone.

My advice to all players : Play your own game, and shut up about the other guy!

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose you can define any interaction between two players as "pvp" if you really wanted to. The real question regarding complaints is, "what is balanced pvp?"

If you don't care about pvp being balanced or devs using the populations' input to make improvements, then you end up with a shard shrinking at an alarming rate. UO has outdated graphics and buggy game mechanics. The only reason it has survived this long was because it used to have the most balanced pvp.

There are plenty of games on store shelves with horrible pvp set ups that nobody buys. Uo doesn't even sit in those stores anymore. Meanwhile, player run shards DO listen to its player's complaints and a result, are thriving.

 

[Stealth Caster]

Good point

 

[imported_Gwendar-SP]

For many here PvP is finding a young player or crafter and ganking them. Like the time I saw VmP do a 3 on 1 on a NEW who was out browsing vendors.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

For many here PvP is finding a young player or crafter and ganking them. Like the time I saw VmP do a 3 on 1 on a NEW who was out browsing vendors.

[/ QUOTE ]

ohhh hush up please, everybody knows ganking a NEW is not PvP, its AWESOME PVP! hahahahahahaha!

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

<blockquote><hr>

For many here PvP is finding a young player or crafter and ganking them. Like the time I saw VmP do a 3 on 1 on a NEW who was out browsing vendors.

[/ QUOTE ]

My definition of PvP is playing my style and attacking enemies regardless of their numbers. It usually ends up in losing a lot of stuff, but work keeps me busy enough to minimize my losses.

It is the inverse of ganking...I call it insanity...

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

Why are pets geared towards high end pvm and not pvp? Because of what reasoning? A human still has to control them right? You are playing the player, he just chooses to fight with pets. To me that is no different than a mage using spells. He is not actually fighting you it is the magic.

The whole taming thing is not broke, there are only a few pets that are too strong right? So if you tweaked the pet skills down it would be ok? As for the smoke bomb thing, Hey I do believe that ninjas back in the day or at least in folk lore used stuff like that to get away, so if you get rid of that then get rid of ninjitsu, which would suck. And if a person wants to be able to use smoke bombs then they have to waste I believe 50 skill points in ninjitsu just to use it right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pets have out of wack dmg output and take ridiculous amounts of damage... they were geared for PvM because of prodoshards.

Do my mage spells have a separate health bar?

How about if we made a tamers HP connected to their pets? Do you think that would be fair... that if I killed your pet... you automatically lost HP that you could not heal up and died if your pet did?

Its too complicated to begin with so I wont even go further...


You get a big fat "NOPE"

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

I agree with your point on stealth.

But I disagree on taming. A non stealth tamer is toast anyday. I just need to lure the pets and they dead. if they pet ball em, well, then that means they are not hitting me And when u see the tamer coming, there is little to no surprise and its hard to get ambushed when the pets appear.

[/ QUOTE ]


Like I said before... 1 on 1, my tamer would annihilate you.

If this is in anyway false, I'll concede to what you're saying.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

As for the smoke bomb thing, Hey I do believe that ninjas back in the day or at least in folk lore used stuff like that to get away, so if you get rid of that then get rid of ninjitsu, which would suck. And if a person wants to be able to use smoke bombs then they have to waste I believe 50 skill points in ninjitsu just to use it right?

[/ QUOTE ]

and one more thing...

I've never been a fan of nerfing something by removing it from the game.

With that said... ninjas and smoke bombs should be in the game... and stealth is great. The problem is that we have no ways of really revealing another player quickly or efficiently.


For example... look at how imbalanced detect hidden is. You have the same delay between attempts to detect someone as someone has to wait in order to re-hide after last hiding.

Here's the problem... you are stealthing around and I reveal you and you instantly hide.

so now I'm screwed and you get away?

How is that anywhere in the scope of fair play?

 

[imported_OldAsTheHills]

<blockquote><hr>

you forgot one more type of PvP

hunting blues in the wilderness, it is the hardest "monster" to hunt, because it has the best intelligence, it also adds a thrill like no other because it is "a live" one. No current computer AI comes close.

thats why I play UO

[/ QUOTE ]Game type: Hide and Go Seek.
*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[imported_Bluebottle]

<blockquote><hr>

-Snip -

Do my mage spells have a separate health bar?



[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmm I'm sure some do - last time I looked my summoned Elementals had health bars I could heal em just fine?

 

[Guest]

Wow, reading this particular forum I would like to say regardless of where I stand on this issue that this is the most clear and mature discussion that I have seen on this topic yet.

I believe that both side have given very valid statements.

To add my little tid bit, is just this.
I stand with the defenders of the taming and ninjitsu for the most part.
But I think they should cut down the casting range of some of the pets.
The taking damage if pet dies would not be a bad idea as well. IF fact I think
that some other games incorporate that very idea as well.

These different possibilities and combinations are what I think makes this game great. I have played many other games including City of Heros, City of Villian, World of Warcraft. I played UO when it was much different.
As this game ages and is slowly left behind its redememing quality will always be its freedom from the class system. Where every character and come up with a compilation of skills and mix and match any that they desire. Other than that and houses everyone might as well jump on the WOW band wagon.

To the long life of Seige.

 

[imported_OldAsTheHills]

The real question regarding complaints is, "what is balanced pvp?"

In Pvp, balance occurs when both opponents die, both opponents survive, or
both opponents have same chance of dying.

Everyone must have the same template in UO in order to have balanced pvp.
You seem to think that different templates can be tweaked to make them
balanced. You can do that for only two templates, but not three, or more.
One must lose out to balance two of three.

After every change in UO results in shift toward a few, &lt;very few&gt; templates
which people may select. I guess the developers could get the selection down
to two templates and then make them equal.
You would have thought that the developers would have just started with only
two to begin with and not waste Pvpers time.
I guess the developers wanted to let players make choices. Were they wrong?
Ever think that the developers wanted unbalanced templates?
They did from the start!

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[Stealth Caster]

Damn good points OldAsTheHills. That is exactly the point I guess I am trying to make. The choices is what makes UO unique and in my opinion has kept the game alive as long as it has.

 

[imported_Bluebottle]

<blockquote><hr>

Since I have been on siege I see all kinds of whining and complaining about players wanting a change of certain skills, mainly taming and stealth. The main reasoning I see is that people say it is not true pvp. Well I ask then if it is not what is?

People, like to say that tamers are just nothing more than pvm. I disagree. To me pvp is the same as human vs human. Which that is what you are doing if the person that is controlling the pet is a human. PvM, in my opinion is human vs AI or computer. So why do people insist that you are not a true pvper if you use a tamer? Is it because tamers (pets) are too strong?

I think before you start attacking a template or saying what the problem is with pvp we need to know what the definition of pvp is. Then once you have a definition of pvp, then what skills are for pvp and what is not.

I would like to see other people's answer on this and please defend your answer. Just don't say it isn't pvp and leave it at that. Defend your answers! Just curious what everyone has to say on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm certainly not one to whine about Stealth or taming since I've had a Tamer and a Stealther since the creation of SP! I didn't create the tamer for PvP since I really came to Siege to participate in RP, avoid PvP and for an extra challenge. I don't actively attack folks nor volunteer to PvP though I won't deny that my critters may have successfully assisted me defending from an attack once in a while. Is the inference here that most PvPers would prefer me to be a much easier target to loot? Sometimes when I'm out hunting for gold and resources such as hides that I can trade - a few folks seem to resent me any my pets and will call in a number of like-minded folk to dispatch us for no other reason than I don't "conform"

Remember I had to forgo many other skills to allow me to tame, I don't have an uber template on the combat side so I have to use my pets wherever possible.

I also have a stealther/picker/thief, great fun in the early days but now he's relegated to stealthing around the lands and occasionally dungeons to pick the odd chest or two - he doesn't even have a negative karma count anymore. He also avoids PvP since (like my tamer) he doesn't have one of the "standard" PvP templates!

So I put it to folks that seem to want everyone in SP to PvP that there are some of us that are simply here for the challenge and the camaraderie and by all means gank us at every opportunity but please don't continue to whine about the need to nerf skill features that merely allow some of us to survive!!

 

[Guest]

Not true, rock/paper/scissor is perfectly balanced, but contains more than 2 options. You do not need to only have 2 rocks go against each other for balance.

The best time I can think of this rock/paper/scissor analogy worked its best in UO was just before pre-aos when a fencer &gt; mage &gt; macer &gt; fencer, roughly speaking.

When you balance pvp, it means your template, has a 50% chance of survival, +/- some degree based on your skill as a pvp'er, against all templates as a whole. While you may have a better chance against template A, and a worse chance against template B, they all balance out.

Tamers on the other hand...
Stealth/Tamers have the edge against all other templates except directly against a peacer.
A peacer is at a disadvantage against all other templates except directly against a tamer.

That is not balance.

 

[imported_Bluebottle]

<blockquote><hr>

The real question regarding complaints is, "what is balanced pvp?"


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget that there are other ways to score points that don't involve simple one-on-one juvenile pwnage when it comes to Player versus Player.

<ul>
[*]Getting the best drops at a spawn
[*]Winning a prize in a fancy-dress costume
[*]Finding a great house location and successfully placing
[*]Putting together and managing the best faction town defense (ok some folks will die) but I think this grand-strategy rocks!
[*]Provides the best command and control structure in group combat
[*]Coming up with the best story at a tavern reading contest
[*]Getting some of the best arties etc to drop
[*]Giving the best Urkish speech
[/list]

All of these pit players against other players but they actually involve other human skills that demand planning, thought, verbal/written interaction and communication. All seem to be lost to the uber-fast, low latency, assistant scripted, skilled-up Pixel versus Pixel pwnage that we somehow seem to associate with enjoyment in this game!

For goodness sake people wake up and look at how far we seem to have fallen since we first picked up UO, saw the chest open and listened to "Stones" being played! *sigh* how narrow the field of fantasy has become in this ADD instant gratification-esque environment that UO (and most other MMOs - aside from perhaps Eve) appear to have become.

 

[Guest]

The way stealth works represents no oversight by the devs. Stealth is intended to work before and after the stealther attacks someone. This is why there are so many spells and special moves that work from stealth. A stealther gives up other forms of protection (resist, parry, bushido, etc) and must rely on the shadows for protection.

This does not make mages and dexers happy. They prefer to hit someone until the person runs away or dies. With the steather, the battle ends in a way that gives little consolation to many of you. That is how assassins operate.

 

[imported_OldAsTheHills]

Not true, rock/paper/scissor is perfectly balanced, but contains more than 2 options. You do not need to only have 2 rocks go against each other for balance.

You are assuming that rock &gt; scissor and scissor &gt; paper and paper &gt; rock type
templates exist! Do they? It will more likely be rock &gt; scissor &gt; paper and paper
never is &gt; rock.

Anyway, he wants balance by having rock = paper = scissor ! Will not happen.

You can not instantly choose rock, paper, scissor in UO with one account.
It takes time to switch out skills, even with Soulstones.

Players can quickly change which character account they are using. Logout,
then logon!
So, as soon as A knows what B is, A switches characters.
This is why having multiple accounts on Siege Perilous is a sin, IMHO.
But, I will not stop people from having them!
Of course if B already has the dominate template then nothing A does will work.
A can choose B's template.
Does this mean that B's template is unbalanced!
No.
If people want balance in this game, play the game type: Monkey see, monkey do!

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[imported_Death of Hemp]

Interesting points on both sides here, Hills and Bruin. I think the middle ground in what you're both saying may be this; as we add skills, special moves, etc....the rock/paper/scissors balance becomes exponentially difficult to maintain.
It will never be perfect, but I think it was a bit better during AOS days because it was more simplistic. I'm not against pvping with tamers but I think a few tweaks could help. Smoke bombs and hiding should not be allowed until you unflag. These skills should be used for suprise attacks....not a replacement for Recall to save your arse. Pet balls need a timer and fully trained pets need to do less damage to players and from only one screen away. Maybe not exactly that, but some similar minor tweaks would just bring us a bit closer to rock/paper/scissors imho.

 

[imported_Death of Hemp]

Good point......maybe just changing the timer on detect would make people feel better. You do have to give up skills to run detect or tracking so those should have timers that balance with hide/stealth is my thinking.

 

[Nerf-Herder]

<blockquote><hr>

Good point......maybe just changing the timer on detect would make people feel better. You do have to give up skills to run detect or tracking so those should have timers that balance with hide/stealth is my thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Change it back to the way it was a little over a year ago. There was no timer for area detect. You could spam it all you wanted. They put the timer in with the publish that supposedly fixed a bug allowing people to override skill timers.

 

[Nerf-Herder]

<blockquote><hr>

Interesting points on both sides here, Hills and Bruin. I think the middle ground in what you're both saying may be this; as we add skills, special moves, etc....the rock/paper/scissors balance becomes exponentially difficult to maintain.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the other thing. The dev team only tests and tweaks this crap long enough to make it work. They have never cared about a balance test (esp as related to PvP) when releasing new expansions.

All of the expansions I have seen released have caused an absolute uproar in the PvP community, while most PvMers happily do whatever it takes to get them new items.

 

[imported_dexdash]

awww we dont kill new but we need to kill those new players to stay red its not really fun per say but when your in factions theres no one to give you counts i think all my counts have come from about the same 12 blues for the last year