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What constitutes 'consent'?

You're mining in felucca and a red PKs you. You give him a murder count.


  • Total voters
    249
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L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
Option 3: I wouldn't be mining & blues don't give reds counts they give blues/greys counts.

There is no consensual system as such but entering fel allows it to happen, no one can make you enter fel. So only you can allow it to happen thats as close to consensual as it gets.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So a person who lives in a war zone, perhaps a child, because the war is where they live has given consent to be shot? Hmmmm.....that has all the ear marks of a member of the Bush administration.

A person who can only find work in a part of town that is considered to be dangerous has NOT given consent to have danger befall them. They ARE however working to survive.

Risk vs reward eh? What risk is there to a red to kill a miner? You do this and you are a bully. That's fine. Be a bully, but at least have the gonads to admit it.
Exactly.

Consent is willingness. I'm aware that while swimming in the ocean a shark might eat me. That doesn't mean my death was consensual with the shark if it happened.

There is no consensual system as such but entering fel allows it to happen, no one can make you enter fel. So only you can allow it to happen thats as close to consensual as it gets.
But it's still not consensual. Insisting that even being in Fel means you consent for someone to kill you usurps someone else's agency. Unless you can climb in their head or receive verbal permission to kill them, it wasn't consensual. Saying the ruleset allows you to kill with or without the other player's consent is NOT the same thing as saying all deaths are consensual.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
Wether you consent or not doesn't come in to it, if you put yourself somewhere it can happen, it will happen.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wether you consent or not doesn't come in to it, if you put yourself somewhere it can happen, it will happen.
I see that the UO playerbase accurately reflects the deplorable state of reading comprehension levels in the United States.

See the thread title and poll choices. If you think whether or not consent comes into it is beside the point, I don't even know what point you're discussing.

A majority of the people responding to this thread have voted that all deaths in Fel are consensual. If someone's fleeing from you or attempting to do so, that is a somewhat common sense sign that they do not wish to "pvp", and do NOT wish you to enact your "right" to pvp on them.

Miner/crafter deaths are not consensual, at all. They are a calculated risk, and they are allowed by the ruleset, that's all. The insistence on reinventing it that "well u were in Fel so u agreed 2 die when I choose 2 kill u" is merely sloppy attempts at justifying what is, essentially, cowardly PK behavior and trying to dress it up as something better. Insinuating that everyone in Fel, however weak or powerless, is there with the intent and willingness to PvP you, and thus a target to be honorably destroyed by the victim's consent, is whitewashing behavior in Fel to an almost comical degree.

The poll results speak more to the large number of players guilty of this kind of essentially cowardly behavior in Fel (i.e. going after characters you are clearly aware can pose no threat in return, and were not seeking a fight) rather than the correctness of their assertion that all pvp is consensual.
 
G

Gowron

Guest
I tend to believe that there is a general confusion between the differences of "accepting a risk" and "giving consent".

By going into felucca, either to gather resources, spawn, or dungeon crawl, I am accepting a degree of risk, but not necessarily granting consent to PvP.

By going into felucca on my factions character or Yew Gate, I am going in for the purpose of PvP, and thus, inherently am giving consent.

Mere presence in felucca, therefore, does not in and of itself constitute consent. The intent of activities one decides to do in felucca drives whether there is consent or not.
 

Lord Kotan

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I don't know.. I don't vote either of those answers. But whatever it is; I don't give a count if they are red; I give a count if they are blue
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I tend to believe that there is a general confusion between the differences of "accepting a risk" and "giving consent".

By going into felucca, either to gather resources, spawn, or dungeon crawl, I am accepting a degree of risk, but not necessarily granting consent to PvP.

By going into felucca on my factions character or Yew Gate, I am going in for the purpose of PvP, and thus, inherently am giving consent.

Mere presence in felucca, therefore, does not in and of itself constitute consent. The intent of activities one decides to do in felucca drives whether there is consent or not.
Here's someone who got it right.... and well stated, at that!

I think people seem to forget that, before Tram/Fel, all there was was Fel. And I can guarantee you in those days when a defenseless crafter was killed, with no "safe place" to go do crafting or resource gathering, no "pvp-free zone", no one except the PK's reared up a chorus of "you consented to the PvP, stop QQ'ing." In fact, outrage over those kinds of abusive playstyles-- or cowardly, or greedy playstyles of "PvP", were the reason anti-PK guilds were formed, and, ultimately, the reason Trammel was created.

Somehow now, the same behavior occurring in the same facet is widely accepted as normal and morally neutral... it doesn't matter if you're at the Fel Yew gate or camping a rock face in the middle of nowhere waiting for miners, if you kill someone it is precisely the same act, anywhere, on anyone. And that the victims in all possible circumstances consented to PvP with you and his own death. It's a rather staggering rearrangement of value judgments when you think about it from the perspective of "before Trammel" and "after."

These acts are the same as they were before, it is only the fact that any sense of community in UO has degenerated to nothing but a population of sologaming artie-farmers that people take a "meh, it's not griefing behavior, blame the victim of griefing behavior as the problem.... lolololol I can't stand whining" attitude about the same behaviors which were once considered so outrageous that they resulted in adding a whole new ruleset to the game.
 

shanshu

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Here's someone who got it right.... and well stated, at that!

I think people seem to forget that, before Tram/Fel, all there was was Fel. And I can guarantee you in those days when a defenseless crafter was killed, with no "safe place" to go do crafting or resource gathering, no "pvp-free zone", no one except the PK's reared up a chorus of "you consented to the PvP, stop QQ'ing." In fact, outrage over those kinds of abusive playstyles-- or cowardly, or greedy playstyles of "PvP", were the reason anti-PK guilds were formed, and, ultimately, the reason Trammel was created.

Somehow now, the same behavior occurring in the same facet is widely accepted as normal and morally neutral... it doesn't matter if you're at the Fel Yew gate or camping a rock face in the middle of nowhere waiting for miners, if you kill someone it is precisely the same act, anywhere, on anyone. And that the victims in all possible circumstances consented to PvP with you and his own death. It's a rather staggering rearrangement of value judgments when you think about it from the perspective of "before Trammel" and "after."

These acts are the same as they were before, it is only the fact that any sense of community in UO has degenerated to nothing but a population of sologaming artie-farmers that people take a "meh, it's not griefing behavior, blame the victim of griefing behavior as the problem.... lolololol I can't stand whining" attitude about the same behaviors which were once considered so outrageous that they resulted in adding a whole new ruleset to the game.
You say good words.
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
I see that the UO playerbase accurately reflects the deplorable state of reading comprehension levels in the United States.
You're probably right though I'm not American.

I don't even know what point you're discussing.
Then reading comprehension is the last thing you should be commenting on.

As I already said the poll question and options do not cover the reality because there is no consensual system in UO.
 

Cogniac

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm not entirely certain how this thread got resurrected, but I can't help but notice the amusing analogies to real life being used. Such as the "driving in a bad neighborhood" analogy and the "walking in a war zone" analogy. Highly comical. I commend you on your creativity.

The problem with these analogies is that they do not correspond to Felucca, or any system in any game, in any way. They lack intent. They are not designed. No one plans a neighborhood and designs the shared spaces with a central theme of "crime-infested" always present in the front of their mind. No group of people get together, mark out a region on a map, and collectively decide "We are going to build a war zone here."

Felucca was originally designed as a closed, virtual system where free-for-all PvP was the unifying backdrop. Perhaps it did not work out entirely as planned; perhaps no such system can ever work out as planned. This is not the point. The point is simply that it was planned, and thus there is no real-life system to which it is analagous.
 

Fluffi

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Let's see if we can define giving "informed consent" without resorting to OED online...

How about "You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?"


We must now view that definition solely in terms of UO. Real life analogies are irrelevant, as we are not talking about war-zones or drug trials.

In this context, "informed consent" means that you are aware that you might be attacked at any time, in any place, by anyone.
At no time are you asked to say "I want to be attacked", but stepping through the red gate implies that you are aware of the risks, and have agreed to accept them as potentialities.


"to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented. "
What was proposed? When was permission asked?

You're never asked for your consent. Nothing is proposed to you.
You are not explicitly asked whether you agree to the terms and conditions of the Felucca ruleset, (maybe you should be), but every player is aware of what might happen, and has the option to not go through the red gate. Entry into Felucca is not mandatory.


You're never asked for your permission to be attacked.
Not in that explicit sense, but "You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?"


You can go into fel without ever being asked for your acceptance of any terms.

You are not required to give your consent to any proposal to enter fel.
"You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?"


If you are blue and you are in a fel guard zone and you are attacked non-consensually you can call guards. If you are attacked consensually, (factions, guild war, guildmates) you can't call guards
Guard zone mechanics have nothing to do with the consentuality of PvP within Felucca.
 
M

mr.blackmage

Guest
If we were to go by the dictionary definition, then sure, there is no REAL "consent" to being PKed. But neither is there consent for a monster to kill you in trammel. It's enough to be aware of the risks. I wouldn't want a gump every single time a monster targeted me saying "an ogre lord wishes to attack you! do you accept his challenge, knowing that you may possibly perish?" Seriously, if people are going to skew the idea of consent in a video game, then don't pick and choose where you want it.

Nor will the shark care if you consented to swimming in shark infested waters or not. It will eat you if it's hungry or crazy, and our human terms of consent do not apply to the animal world.

fr: duskofdead; Exactly.

Consent is willingness. I'm aware that while swimming in the ocean a shark might eat me. That doesn't mean my death was consensual with the shark if it happened.


Quote:
There is no consensual system as such but entering fel allows it to happen, no one can make you enter fel. So only you can allow it to happen thats as close to consensual as it gets.

But it's still not consensual. Insisting that even being in Fel means you consent for someone to kill you usurps someone else's agency. Unless you can climb in their head or receive verbal permission to kill them, it wasn't consensual. Saying the ruleset allows you to kill with or without the other player's consent is NOT the same thing as saying all deaths are consensual.
 

Dermott of LS

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
...

I tend to believe that there is a general confusion between the differences of "accepting a risk" and "giving consent".

By going into felucca, either to gather resources, spawn, or dungeon crawl, I am accepting a degree of risk, but not necessarily granting consent to PvP.

By going into felucca on my factions character or Yew Gate, I am going in for the purpose of PvP, and thus, inherently am giving consent.

Mere presence in felucca, therefore, does not in and of itself constitute consent. The intent of activities one decides to do in felucca drives whether there is consent or not.


^ This.
 

Widow Maker

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Good Lord!! 11 pages of mostly pure crap with people trying to wrap words and their conceptual personal ideals around whether or not entering fel means it is ok to get PKd. What an asinine argument.

The bottom line of this idiotic conversation is quite simple. It always has been this way and should / hopefully will always remain;

If you are in Fel, for whatever reason, you are a target to everyone and everyone is a target for you, by design. The decision on whether you pull the trigger on someone else is yours and yours alone. The decision on whether or not someone else pulls the trigger on you is their decision alone, as well. That choice, and therefore any question of consent is active the moment the screen appears. Since this has always been and is the very simple premise of UO Fel, then entering it is implied consent. Ignorance is not an acceptable excuse.

End of story or any possible argument.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Good Lord!! 11 pages of mostly pure crap with people trying to wrap words and their conceptual personal ideals around whether or not entering fel means it is ok to get PKd. What an asinine argument.

The bottom line of this idiotic conversation is quite simple. It always has been this way and should / hopefully will always remain;

If you are in Fel, for whatever reason, you are a target to everyone and everyone is a target for you, by design. The decision on whether you pull the trigger on someone else is yours and yours alone. The decision on whether or not someone else pulls the trigger on you is their decision alone, as well. That choice, and therefore any question of consent is active the moment the screen appears. Since this has always been and is the very simple premise of UO Fel, then entering it is implied consent. Ignorance is not an acceptable excuse.

End of story or any possible argument.
Like everyone else who shares your opinion, (it's funny you tossed around the word "idiotic", by the way... it's .... IRONICAL as a certain President might have said) you stated the "facts" of being attackable in Fel and said "that's it discussion over period end of story." When what you slapped down as the end of the argument wasn't even pertinent to the argument.

Try to grasp this.

The argument is NOT: In Fel you are only a target if you want to be.

The argument IS: If a defenseless character is killed in Felucca, did the defenseless character consent to be murdered?

I can assure you everytime my lumberjack has died in Felucca, it was only because I got very surprised, lagged, or simply couldn't run and open my runebook to recall out fast enough. It is -never- consensual.

Saying that "I consent" merely by being in Fel, when my actions clearly indicate I do NOT consent to being killed (regardless of which facet I happen to be chopping wood in) is just some temper tantrumming from people who wish to re-paint PK activity as "always with the willing consent of the victims" of such behavior. When that is not the case at all.

Being in Fel no more delivers your express consent to be killed on a non-combat character not seeking confrontation anymore than a scantily clad woman in an alley gave consent to be ****d, or a child playing in the ocean gave consent to lose a leg to a shark, or an old man tromping in the mountains gave consent to be blown up by a leftover WWII landmine. The furthest you can ever go, is to say people were aware of the potential of x, y or z happening. You cannot co-opt their free will and say merely by going in the ocean, walking in the mountains, or being scantily clad in an alley that they gave consent for violent acts to be perpetrated on them.

Period. End of story. ;)
 

Draxous

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Good Lord!! 11 pages of mostly pure crap with people trying to wrap words and their conceptual personal ideals around whether or not entering fel means it is ok to get PKd. What an asinine argument.

The bottom line of this idiotic conversation is quite simple. It always has been this way and should / hopefully will always remain;

If you are in Fel, for whatever reason, you are a target to everyone and everyone is a target for you, by design. The decision on whether you pull the trigger on someone else is yours and yours alone. The decision on whether or not someone else pulls the trigger on you is their decision alone, as well. That choice, and therefore any question of consent is active the moment the screen appears. Since this has always been and is the very simple premise of UO Fel, then entering it is implied consent. Ignorance is not an acceptable excuse.

End of story or any possible argument.
Like everyone else who shares your opinion, (it's funny you tossed around the word "idiotic", by the way... it's .... IRONICAL as a certain President might have said) you stated the "facts" of being attackable in Fel and said "that's it discussion over period end of story." When what you slapped down as the end of the argument wasn't even pertinent to the argument.

Try to grasp this.

The argument is NOT: In Fel you are only a target if you want to be.

The argument IS: If a defenseless character is killed in Felucca, did the defenseless character consent to be murdered?

I can assure you everytime my lumberjack has died in Felucca, it was only because I got very surprised, lagged, or simply couldn't run and open my runebook to recall out fast enough. It is -never- consensual.

Saying that "I consent" merely by being in Fel, when my actions clearly indicate I do NOT consent to being killed (regardless of which facet I happen to be chopping wood in) is just some temper tantrumming from people who wish to re-paint PK activity as "always with the willing consent of the victims" of such behavior. When that is not the case at all.

Being in Fel no more delivers your express consent to be killed on a non-combat character not seeking confrontation anymore than a scantily clad woman in an alley gave consent to be ****d, or a child playing in the ocean gave consent to lose a leg to a shark, or an old man tromping in the mountains gave consent to be blown up by a leftover WWII landmine. The furthest you can ever go, is to say people were aware of the potential of x, y or z happening. You cannot co-opt their free will and say merely by going in the ocean, walking in the mountains, or being scantily clad in an alley that they gave consent for violent acts to be perpetrated on them.

Period. End of story. ;)
When you were given the option to be in Fel or not to be in Fel... on your 'defenseless character' - you consented to being killed simply by being in Felucca.

The only way your scenario works is if there is no alternative to the situation you are in (aka why murder/suicide in RL is the end-all...)

When they created Trammel... they really changed the entire premise in which this game operates under. There is no such thing as non-consensual PvP in UO... anymore.

Period. End of story. :p
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
When you were given the option to be in Fel or not to be in Fel... on your 'defenseless character' - you consented to being killed simply by being in Felucca.

The only way your scenario works is if there is no alternative to the situation you are in (aka why murder/suicide in RL is the end-all...)

When they created Trammel... they really changed the entire premise in which this game operates under. There is no such thing as non-consensual PvP in UO... anymore.

Period. End of story. :p
And no matter how many times obtuse arguments are shoved down throats about how "awareness of different ruleset is equivalent to agreeing to PvP", it becomes no less factual than it was at the beginning of this thread.

Are there non-PvP characters ever present in Felucca? Are there reasons for them to go there other than to PvP? Is it not, then, not only possible, but probable, that many characters who are not equipped to PvP, do not wish to PvP, but aware that PK's may murder them, enter Felucca for goals totally unrelated to PvP?

The answer is yes, yes, yes, yes. The answer to "do people realize there's the risk of death when they go to Fel" is also yes. That doesn't mean they have consented to PvP. They have accepted the risk that someone may murder them. That is a different thing from being "willing to PvP." Clearly if someone's fleeing, they are not willing. Insisting that simple presence is willingness to fight and be killed is, again, merely whitewashing behavior which is now accepted entirely in Fel (as opposed to the outrage it provoked when we all shared the same ruleset/facet) and, logically speaking, merely insisting the square peg fits the round hole. Though many of you do look very amusing getting blue in the face yelling it over and over. ;)

Being someplace you are aware there is crime =/= willingness to be robbed.

Being someplace where there's heavy rain sometimes =/= willingness to die in a flood.

Being a woman in skimpy clothes near men =/= willingness to be ****d.

Even though in all three of those scenarios, those consequences may happen... and indeed, thinkers like you after the fact would comment "well what did they expect? They had it coming." Luckily rational thinkers and the court systems and civic services in all but the most barbaric societies do not share your reasoning.

You are entitled to your own opinions, not to your own facts. Assert over and over that people accept the possibility and risk of murder in Fel and you get no argument. But asserting over and over that mere presence there is equivalent to expressed consent to be killed is making up your own rules of logic and reason from thin air. That is the sociopath or the criminal's reasoning. Merely saying that awareness of the possibility of something happening is consent to having it perpetrated on you is rather frightful in terms of how you view how people should interact in a social matrix.

If you consent to fighting and dying... you're pvp'ing.

If you kill people regardless of their consent to fight with other players... you're PK'ing.

There is still a difference, even with the facet distinctions which exist today. Everything else is just a very transparent attempt to justify the behavior of most so-called "PvP'ers" today by stretching way out on the end of a limb and saying "everyone I kill, agreed to fight with me."

"I can kill someone" does not = "the person killed agreed to be killed."

That's the argument being used--- go use it in the real world and see how it works for ya. (I would probably be very disturbed by your RL politics.)
 
L

Lord Onslaught

Guest
Reds became red by killing blues that were weaker than them. So calling them cowards is really quite inane.
There is nothing in fel other than powerscrolls and harrower replicas that isnt available on the other factets. I doubt many miners are in fel for powerscrolls or harrowers.

RE Duskofdead:
Obtuse comments? Your talking about r**e, floods and murder irl the rest of the people in this thread are talking about killing people in a game. Its already been established there is no consent in UO so why you feel the need to bring up potentially upsetting topics for people is a lot more obtuse than someone stating what they think about UO.
 
S

Shioni

Guest
I had a long talk about this with my friend who is a pvp nut.
What it came down to was consensual pvp is between two people looking to fight.

It was kind of funny because on the test shard we simulated the circumstances of a mule raid.

First i made a dex miner that had (mining, tinkering, swords, tactics, healing, parry, anat)
Then I secretly asked two of my friends to make the same build and to use invis pots to hide around me.

What happend next is I went to the uper level in despise with a friended fire bettle and my own pack hourse. My friend game in on a nox mage and droped a deadly poison feild. In seconds I poped a golem and set it to kill him. My other two friends also charged him.

After he was thoroughly ganked he complained that it wasnt fair I had other people to help me.

My response was this, I never play in fel without a friend or two.

all in all I wouldn't have standed a chance on a 100% mule character but it is possible to have consented pvp on a miner.

Is it fair? not always

But is it really consented pvp when one or more parties refuses to fight back?...
*answer is no* Just because you can kill someone dost give you the right to do so, people who cant respect this often are often cowards and have no real tact.

But by all means you should kill every miner you see in fel because stomping the script miners is more important then fighting with consent, but please think and stop if the miner is begging for their lives.
 
R

Radun

Guest
"You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?"
Where exactly in the game does this line appear? I have not once, in all my years of playing, seen that line of text pop up on my screen..
The closest thing to that is the gump that comes up when you (sometimes, not always) step onto a player-casted moongate... and no, it is not specific to felucca gates, you get the same gump pop-up whether you are going through a tram or fel ruleset moongate.
No such gump pops up when you step through a town moongate.
 
R

Radun

Guest
Its already been established there is no consent in UO
no consent, hmm... there is no in-game system built into the game to determine whether something is consensual or not, besides the murder-count system.. what you assert as something that has "been established" is actually the topic that is being debated.
by the way... If I were to take what you said by the meaning of the words used (as opposed to what I believe is the implied intended meaning within the context it was said) I would read what you said as to mean that ALL PVP in UO is non-consensual.. that is of course because if "there is no consent" (without consent) then that is, by definition, non-consensual.
 

hawkeye_pike

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
What actually is the point of discussing this finickiness?
Let's look back at the roots of PKing in UO:

Back in the Early Days, there was no Trammel. When you left the "protection of Lord British's guards" (i.e. the towns), you knew that there was a risk of being murdered. And that risk was not too low. To most players, this risk, this feeling of danger, was essential for their gaming experience. On the other hand, PKing soon got out of hand (mostly due to cheating and abusing of flaws in the game mechanics) and a lot of players left UO because of that problem.

2 years later, Trammel was invented. Did it solve the problem? No! It created new ones. Either you go to Felucca and face the same old problems with people randomly PKing defenseless miners and adventurers, or using cheats and hacks for their advantage. Or you stay in Trammel where there's no risk whatsoever, no matter where you go (and I don't call monsters with their predictable AI a risk). Only, now the bad behavior is even more concentrated on Felucca.

My conclusion is: This Trammel/Felucca solution was a massive failure!

Of course, many people joined UO after the world had split, and they don't miss anything. Those are who you call "Trammies". They never would consider playing under Felucca ruleset (and I don't blame them!).

To my opinion, the rampant PKing should have been countered with more intelligent solutions. Players should be given the tools to govern themselves and counter those problems with in-game features. Being a killer should be possible everywhere in the gaming world, but it also should have serious consequences depending on where and how the crime was committed. Just "being red", to my opinion, is not really a serious consequence.

People should have the possibility to choose the amount of risk they're exposing themselves to. However, they should not have the possibility to switch off that risk completely.


Ultima Online Travelogues & Adventurer's Guide
 

Fluffi

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
"You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?"
Where exactly in the game does this line appear? I have not once, in all my years of playing, seen that line of text pop up on my screen..
The closest thing to that is the gump that comes up when you (sometimes, not always) step onto a player-casted moongate... and no, it is not specific to felucca gates, you get the same gump pop-up whether you are going through a tram or fel ruleset moongate.
No such gump pops up when you step through a town moongate.

I can only assume that you are being deliberately obtuse, simply to try to bolster a failed argument.


Shall we have a look at the parts of my post which you chose not to quote....


Fluffi Let's see if we can define giving "informed consent" without resorting to OED online...

How about "You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?"
Does that seem like a reasonable definition of "informed consent"? If you think not, then why not offer your definition of "informed consent"; not with reference to Felucca, or swimming in shark-infested seas, or walking the streets in a warzone; simply define the two-word phrase.


Radun You're never asked for your consent. Nothing is proposed to you.
Fluffi You are not explicitly asked whether you agree to the terms and conditions of the Felucca ruleset, (maybe you should be), but every player is aware of what might happen, and has the option to not go through the red gate

RadunYou're never asked for your permission to be attacked.
Fluffi] Not in that explicit sense, but "You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?" (or insert your definition of "informed consent" here)

RadunYou can go into fel without ever being asked for your acceptance of any terms.
You are not required to give your consent to any proposal to enter fel.
Fluffi"You have been made aware of what might happen if you follow this course of action. Do you wish to carry on?" (or insert your definition of "informed consent" here)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are an experienced player of UO.
As such, I assume that you aware of the potential risks of entering Felucca; just as you are aware of the potential risks of entering Trammel Despise.

There is no gump which says "You are on the threshold of Despise dungeon. There may be lizardmen here, who will try to kill you. Do you REALLY want to go in?"


For any UO player who actually understands how the game works in Felucca, there is no difference between walking through the red gate and entering Trammel Despise: You are aware of what might happen, and have the option to agree to the consequences. Neither Felucca nor Trammel Despise are mandatory areas.

There is NO difference between the absence of a gump which says "This is Felucca - you might be PKd" and the absence of a gump which says "This is Despise - the lizards are naughty"; both are unnecessary restatements of what you already know.


If you insist on a pop-up which says "You are about to enter Felucca, do you accept what might happen to you if you continue?", then you must logically also insist on a pop-up saying "You are about to enter Trammel Despise, do you accept what might happen if you continue?"


If you really need a pop-up window to appear to remind you of the dangers, every time you step out of a town; then I would, respectfully, suggest that UO is probably not the game for you.
 

Fluffi

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Hawkeye, I agree with much of what you say, but I cannot agree with some of your conclusions...


What actually is the point of discussing this finickiness?
Let's look back at the roots of PKing in UO:

Back in the Early Days, there was no Trammel. When you left the "protection of Lord British's guards" (i.e. the towns), you knew that there was a risk of being murdered. And that risk was not too low. To most players, this risk, this feeling of danger, was essential for their gaming experience. On the other hand, PKing soon got out of hand (mostly due to cheating and abusing of flaws in the game mechanics) and a lot of players left UO because of that problem.

2 years later, Trammel was invented. Did it solve the problem? No! It created new ones.
Up to here, you were doing fine.


Either you go to Felucca and face the same old problems with people randomly PKing defenseless miners and adventurers, or using cheats and hacks for their advantage.
Uhm, no. You go to Felucca and face all the consequences of being in that facet. Your 7xGM crafter mule is allowed to attack my multi-legendary red, just as I am allowed to attack you. That is part-and-parcel of being in Felucca. The fact that my PvPer is better equipped for the fight than your tinker/tailor/miner/LJ/smith/whatever is irrelevant. We are both in the dangerous place, and both know the risks of being there.


Or you stay in Trammel where there's no risk whatsoever, no matter where you go (and I don't call monsters with their predictable AI a risk). Only, now the bad behavior is even more concentrated on Felucca.
Do you really think that bad behaviour is limited to Felucca?
Certainly, the PvP facet has a lot of scripters, but do you really think that scripting doesn't occur in Trammel? BoDs, Heartwood, PvM farming, collections and training scripting is mainly a Trammel phenomenon, so please don't pretend that Trammel is full of nice people. Cheats operate everywhere - it's just that the cheating takes different forms across the two facets.


My conclusion is: This Trammel/Felucca solution was a massive failure!

Of course, many people joined UO after the world had split, and they don't miss anything. Those are who you call "Trammies". They never would consider playing under Felucca ruleset (and I don't blame them!).
I don't blame them either.
To each his own.
Neither my playstyle not that of the "Trammies" is better than the other. They are simply different ways of getting enjoyment from UO.


To my opinion, the rampant PKing should have been countered with more intelligent solutions. Players should be given the tools to govern themselves and counter those problems with in-game features.
Every UO player has several possible options to counter "ramant PKing":
1) Stay out of Felucca
2) Learn to PvP, and beat them at their own game
3) Organise "Trammies" (your word, not mine), and send an unstoppable force into Felucca


Being a killer should be possible everywhere in the gaming world, but it also should have serious consequences depending on where and how the crime was committed. Just "being red", to my opinion, is not really a serious consequence.
What penalty would you suggest as suitable for PVpers/PKs?

Is no access to 2/3 of the world not enough?
If this is so, would you then accept that Felucca (with all its' rewards) become inaccessible to non-reds?

Or perhaps perma-death for reds?
... Just as long as you accept perma-death for every character PvP killed in Felucca... After all, your mule could kill my reds, so you should be willing to accept the same risk as I would face if I attacked you.


People should have the possibility to choose the amount of risk they're exposing themselves to.
We all do.
It's called "choosing where you hunt/mine/LJ"


However, they should not have the possibility to switch off that risk completely.
If you don't want the total removal of risk, why do you seem to be supporting a "I want to go to Felucca with no real risk" premise?
 

hawkeye_pike

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I will try to answer the questions...

You go to Felucca and face all the consequences of being in that facet. Your 7xGM crafter mule is allowed to attack my multi-legendary red, just as I am allowed to attack you. That is part-and-parcel of being in Felucca. The fact that my PvPer is better equipped for the fight than your tinker/tailor/miner/LJ/smith/whatever is irrelevant. We are both in the dangerous place, and both know the risks of being there.
True, but too simple and not sophisticated enough. You see, that's exactly my point: Splitting the world into Trammel and Felucca IS ONE WAY to solve this problem. But it is not a very good way! I never said that defenseless lumberjacks should not be attacked. I said, it should have a consequence for those who are doing it. The problem is, the current system allows, or even encourages antisocial behavior (player griefing), because it is TOO SIMPLE.

Do you really think that bad behaviour is limited to Felucca? Cheats operate everywhere - it's just that the cheating takes different forms across the two facets.
Bad behavior isn't limited to Felucca, of course. But in Felucca it has direct consequences to my personal gameplay. A scripter in Trammel can harm the game's economy, but he cannot harm me personally. And we're not discussing about UO economy, but about PKing.

Every UO player has several possible options to counter "ramant PKing":
1) Stay out of Felucca
2) Learn to PvP, and beat them at their own game
3) Organise "Trammies" (your word, not mine), and send an unstoppable force into Felucca
1) Again, you did not get my point. The system "no risk or total risk" ist just not good enough, to my opinion.
2) Rather, learn to cheat and try to beat them. Also, most people do not have the goal to fight PKs. What you're saying is: "Either fight them or stay out!" Not good enough!
3) Exactly that was what the community was doing in the past, when the world wasn't split up yet. It was very much fun and IT WAS A COMMUNITY GOVERNING ITSELF! But, splitting the world destroyed exactly that. Why would anyone care about what's going on in Felucca, when he can retreat to his safe Trammel world? THAT is my point.

What penalty would you suggest as suitable for PVpers/PKs?
Is no access to 2/3 of the world not enough?
If this is so, would you then accept that Felucca (with all its' rewards) become inaccessible to non-reds?
Or perhaps perma-death for reds?
This is the most difficult question to answer! I don't have the perfect solution yet. Denying access to great parts of the world is NOT a thing I would suggest, on the contrary! PKs should be able to access ANY part of the world, but in some parts of the world they would take a high risk (for example, in certain towns).
Also, I don't want rewards to be limited to facets or certain players (red/blue).
Perma-death is absolute nonsense, I don't think we need to discuss this.

If the question was easy to answer, we'd have a solution already. :) I have thought a lot about it and I have some ideas, but they're not fully developed yet.

The foundation of my idea would be, to make the system more realistic. Which means:

  • Every player gets a crime record (where the crimes you committed are recorded, similar to the current Karma)
  • Depending on WHERE you commit a crime, you will get entries on that record or not. (If you murder someone in a city in front of everyone's eyes, you're doomed. If you murder someone in the wilderness with nobody else around, you might get away with it.)
  • Introduce a Witness System. If you commit a crime in front of other (blue) players, you will get negative poins on your crime record, depending on the number of witnesses. NPCs would count as witnesses, and they should frequent the public roads
  • If you commit a crime with no witness around, you might get away with it (so you better watch out before you enter an empty dark alley in a town, because a thief might steal from you).
  • A miner could mine together with one or two buddies. This way he'd have witnesses, and murdering one of them would have serious consequences for the murderer.

Now for the consequences (there may be better ideas out there, keep them coming!):

  • Players with a long crime record can be caught! They will most likely be caught when they enter a city or a guarded area. They can also be caught by players! Which would make the profession of a Detective interesting. Let me elaborate:
  • If you go to a crime scene, you can examine the corpse and determine the killer. Now, you can group with at least 2 other players and try to find that killer. If you find him, you can jail him (for example, cast paralyze on him, step up next to him and shackle him). If you successfully jail a murderer, you will receive a reward.
  • A player with too many negative points on his crime record can go to jail. Which means, his character will literally go to jail. It will physically be moved to the Yew Prison and he will have to remain there for maybe 1 to 4 RL weeks (depending on the number of crimes he committed). The player could still play one of his other characters, of course.
  • A character can be released on bail after a week, if he pays a lot of gold.
  • A character could even be publicly pilloried in Britain, if he his a notorious murderer. Other players could throw apples on him. :)

These are only a few ideas. I am sure there are better ones.

If you don't want the total removal of risk, why do you seem to be supporting a "I want to go to Felucca with no real risk" premise?
You get me wrong. I don't want Trammel. I don't want Felucca. I want ONE world with risks, and those risks should depend on the circumstances, on the location, and on other players. A more realistic system.
 
R

Radun

Guest
Fluff: If you are reading into my wording when you call me obtuse, please note that I do not have use of all of the keys on my keyboard on this website, for whatever reason.. Not sure what is causing this problem.

I am not going to bother with the quote-a-thon, I will just address your points without the quoting... Not worth the extra steps and hassle.

I do agree with your definition of informed consent, however without a line of text ever appearing anywhere in the game to inform the player of what they are consenting to, there is no actual "informed consent".
The fact that the player is never asked for their consent, nor required to consent to anything to have things done to them, is the very basis of my claim that there is non consensual pvp in uo.

as someone else already pointed out (maybe you missed that post):
knowing that it is possible for something to happen to you =/= consenting to that thing happening to you
someone is attacked and they try to get away from their attacker = non consensual pvp
simple as that.
without the player being explicitly informed of what they may (or may not) be consenting to, there is no "informed consent".
knowing that there are likely possible consequences to an act (being murdered) is not exactly the same thing as "informed consent".

"Informed consent" = being informed of certain explicit terms, and consenting to those terms.

If the above mentioned line that you stated in quotes was an actual line of text from the game that would actually be informed consent... but no such line appears before stepping through a gate to fel... there is no such gump that says "proceed? [yes] or [no]"
Even if your line did appear and the player chose to accept the terms, that would still only mean that they had consented to being in a place where it is possible to attack/be-attacked-by other players... it is not the same thing as someone walking up and saying "wanna fight?" and me saying "okay, yes, let's fight".
The fact that I know it IS possible for someone to run up and attack me without my explicit consent does not mean that I consent.
The very fact that no one is ever asked for their consent to be attacked is the reason why some pvp is non consensual. By the way, I am not arguing that all pvp should be consensual or that there should be a gump that asks you for your consent. I am merely saying that without explicit consent being given for an action, the act may be considered consensual or non consensual.
Nobody else besides the person who is attacked can say whether the attackee consented or not... without both players expressing explicit consent to specific terms of a fight, it is possible for [whichever player did not express consent] to truthfully claim that the fight was nonconsensual...
Even if I walk up to someone and say "want to fight?" and they say "yes but no chugging" and then during the fight they chug a pot, I can truthfully claim that the fight was nonconsensual... the fight that took place did not fit the explicit terms stated before the fight.

Again I will say it, just so it is fresh on your mind when you click reply:
Knowing that an action I perform may (or may not, it is merely a possibility) have a consequence attached to it =/= consent.
example:
choosing to eat taffy whilst knowing that eating taffy causes the possiblity of losing teeth =/= consenting to having my teeth extracted.

I hope this post has enlightened you, even if only a little.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I do agree with your definition of informed consent, however without a line of text ever appearing anywhere in the game to inform the player of what they are consenting to, there is no actual "informed consent".
The fact that the player is never asked for their consent, nor required to consent to anything to have things done to them, is the very basis of my claim that there is non consensual pvp in uo.

as someone else already pointed out (maybe you missed that post):
knowing that it is possible for something to happen to you =/= consenting to that thing happening to you
someone is attacked and they try to get away from their attacker = non consensual pvp
simple as that.
without the player being explicitly informed of what they may (or may not) be consenting to, there is no "informed consent".
knowing that there are likely possible consequences to an act (being murdered) is not exactly the same thing as "informed consent".

EXACTLY. I have made this argument, at length, twice. And it's been largely ignored by people either unable or unwilling to grasp the argument as it actually is.

No one has ever disputed that the Felucca ruleset ALLOWS any player to perform negative acts on other players. Yet people who insist all PvP is consensual repeat the argument over and over that every negative behavior is allowed in Fel. People say that if you go to Fel today, you are coming as close to consent as possible.

Well, for the purposes of this discussion, it frankly doesn't matter if hitting Fel on that moongate gump is 0.999999999998 consent in anyone's opinion -- that's still not universal consent to pvp. It still doesn't mean when I step through I necessarily want and agree to someone killing me and my pack horse and camping the corpse. That behavior is ALLOWED by the ruleset. It doesn't mean I consent for those things to happen to me simply by being in Fel.

If any negative act up to and including unprovoked killing of a character who is not combat, was not near a PvP area, and was not attempting to PvP back is always consensual.... why does the game still have murder counts? The whole existence of murder counts negates beyond the shadow of a doubt, in game terms, that the game does indeed recognize the existence of non-consensual PvP, even AFTER the creation of Trammel. To get a murder count you are attacking a blue character, who did not attack you first, did not rob you, did not loot your corpse, and performed no criminal act which would have flagged him or her to you. Killing them anyway results in a murder count.

Now, if EVERYONE involved in any PvP activity in Fel is engaging in consensual PvP, why is there any such thing as "flagging?" And why are there murder counts?

I consider the "all PvP is consensual" argument weak or at least based on an uninformed understanding of the word "consent", but the more we get into it, the more you have to either willfully or through ignorance, ignore built-in game mechanics such as the flagging and murder count system, to argue all PvP in UO is consensual.

The poll results I think would be more accurately translated as people voting according to a sentiment along the lines of "people shouldn't whine about getting killed in Fel".... because I think that's how people voted.... being in Fel is not consent to be killed. It is, at most, understanding that another player can kill you WITHOUT your consent if they wish.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Oh and regarding the "implied consent" argument...

No matter how much you may be WARNED that a neighborhood is rough.... you have still been on the non-consensual end of a criminal activity if you are robbed in that neighborhood. It doesn't MATTER that you knew the neighborhood was bad, the act of robbing you is the crime. Not the act of being in the bad neighborhood.

UO recognizes precisely the same reasoning with the murder count system.
 
K

Kratos Aurion

Guest
I'm not entirely certain how this thread got resurrected, but I can't help but notice the amusing analogies to real life being used. Such as the "driving in a bad neighborhood" analogy and the "walking in a war zone" analogy. Highly comical. I commend you on your creativity.

The problem with these analogies is that they do not correspond to Felucca, or any system in any game, in any way. They lack intent. They are not designed. No one plans a neighborhood and designs the shared spaces with a central theme of "crime-infested" always present in the front of their mind. No group of people get together, mark out a region on a map, and collectively decide "We are going to build a war zone here."

Felucca was originally designed as a closed, virtual system where free-for-all PvP was the unifying backdrop. Perhaps it did not work out entirely as planned; perhaps no such system can ever work out as planned. This is not the point. The point is simply that it was planned, and thus there is no real-life system to which it is analagous.
QFT. It's a virtual game. There is no legal form of consent. Players may be able to develop consential agreements but as far as Fel goes, anyone who traverses Fel territory is intentionally accepting the risk of PvP. No real life analogies can be compared to UO as it is an extremely irrational train of thought. The game may "simulate" a lifes experience but it is not in any way influenced by our daily lives vice versa.

Therefore in a backwards way anyone who treads Fel is consenting to be PK'd but only if they allow themselves to be. If you can't escape fast enough thats your fault because you intentionally in a virtual experience "walked" on their terriorty and gave them open rights to attack you IF you were caught by them (PvPers). Whether they attack you or not is solely based on the PK'ers decision. Who knows you may even decide to attack them.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
QFT. It's a virtual game. There is no legal form of consent. Players may be able to develop consential agreements but as far as Fel goes, anyone who traverses Fel territory is intentionally accepting the risk of PvP. No real life analogies can be compared to UO as it is an extremely irrational train of thought. The game may "simulate" a lifes experience but it is not in any way influenced by our daily lives vice versa.

Therefore in a backwards way anyone who treads Fel is consenting to be PK'd but only if they allow themselves to be. If you can't escape fast enough thats your fault because you intentionally in a virtual experience "walked" on their terriorty and gave them open rights to attack you IF you were caught by them (PvPers). Whether they attack you or not is solely based on the PK'ers decision. Who knows you may even decide to attack them.

Total red herring to say no form of consent or non-consent exists in game.

You open a trade window, someone gives you their widget for your weeble. Consent.

Someone walks up, hits the steal button and takes your widged... non-consent.

Fel is not consent to be robbed and killed. Fel is an area with a relaxed ruleset allowing you to rob and kill regardless of whether the other player consents. That's all.
 
K

Kratos Aurion

Guest
Dusk you're a good guy but you should give it a rest. You're comparing two completely irrational forms of consent.

Consent is approving of, giving a right too or complying with another person. In open trade, you aren't consenting to trade but invoking the trade. You asked, they say okay, you trade.

I don't have to ask you for your consent to hit the check box if I change my mind.

Here would be appropriate forms of accurate consent within UO

1) Player asks if he can test a spell on you and you agree (giving the right too)

2) Player wants you to join a guild but you must consent to their rules (compliance)

3) Player wants to trade you an item. In open trade he decides to change his mind and offer another item, you either agree or disagree to that particular trade (approvement)

Those would be accurate forms of consent. Consent can't really be loosely defined to anything because every person thinks differently.

But according to the rule settings of Fel (which is why tram was made), players who decide to travel in Fel consent to the rules that apply to the facet.

Rules such as active attact mode (pvp/pk). So in a sick way you DO consent the right to be attacked and/or be PK'd by other players in Fel.

Total red herring to say no form of consent or non-consent exists in game.
If you reread the thread I submitted prior, I said there is no form of "legal" consent. Meaning game-mechanics wise. Only player consenual agreements.
 
R

Radun

Guest
There is no legal form of consent.
Exactly what I myself have been saying all along... the fact that there is no requirement to consent to an act being performed on you is what makes it possible for pvp to be non consensual. This one sentence I quoted contradicts the entire rest of your post.

No consent required for an act to be performed = possibility of that act being non consensual

nobody is trying to say that consent should be required. nobody is disputing the fact that it is possible to be attacked freely (with or without consent) by other players in fel.

The only thing I have been saying this whole time is that if someone (for whatever reason) is in fel and does not agree (is asked and says yes) to having an act perpetrated upon them, and they wish to not have that act performed upon them (even if they acknowledge the possibility of it happening whether they want it or not), that fits the definition of "non consensual".

I wonder how different the poll results would be if the question was:
You are banksitting afk at luna, and someone (new to your guild) kills you while you are not there...
1. You were on a guilded character, therefore it is consensual pvp.
2. You were afk and unable to express consent (or not), therefore it is non consensual pvp.

regardless of how anyone would vote in that poll, I feel fairly certain that the vast majority (above 99%) would return to the computer, see thier ghost and complain in guild/ally chat about being afk killed at the bank... AND the perpetrator of this antisocial behavior would eventually be caught and removed from the guild... but what would the reason be? hmmm
All the claims that "all pvp is consensual" can be applied to this scenario with equal quasi-validity... Yes you know that being in a guild makes it possible to be attacked freely (with or without your explicit consent), but would that mean that you automatically consented?
"You made it possible, you allowed it to happen", yes that is true, but that is an entirely different thing than consent.
 
R

Radun

Guest
players who decide to travel in Fel consent to the rules that apply to the facet.
QFT (almost, actually a misuse of the word consent imo), however, that is a completely distinct instance from consenting to any one specific act of aggression.

Agree to enter a facet while fully understanding the ruleset =/= consenting to the acts allowed by that ruleset being perpetrated upon you
 
K

Kratos Aurion

Guest
How does saying "no legal form of consent" contradict my entire post?

The fact that you can't actively dispute the actions of one person(s) upon you as an act of aggression?

No.. Nothing I said is contradicted by what I said. The fact you agree to accept the risks of Fel is consenual agreement. You have the ability to do the exact same things in Tram without the risk of someone stealing from you and/or PK'ing you.

If the instance happens within a guild, it's either poor judgement or acceptance of guild behaviorism. You comply that any members can actively attack you without consent or even the fact that it can be done freely regardless.

What you're really asking for is an "easy" button and for that I suggest you goto Staples. Enough said.
 
R

Radun

Guest
Up to your usual trolling, eh rico? Must be nice to be immune to moderator infractions... :p

What you're really asking for is an "easy" button and for that I suggest you goto Staples. Enough said.
No I am not asking for anything in this thread, this is just a discussion about the word "consent" and what that really means. Not every thread on this forum is a cry to the dev team asking for something to be changed.

(Kratos) You asked how what you said was contradictory:
"There is no "legal consent" in the game", therefore it is possible for certain things to be done to people without their consent... actually most of the time they are not asked for their consent, even verbally (typed), therefore it is quite possible that people have acts done to them that they wish not to have done to them.
The entire rest of the post I was referencing was going on about how it is impossible for anything to be consensual in the absence of "legal consent", when the actual matter of fact is that the absence of "legal consent" inevitably eventually (if not immediately) leads to non consensual events between people.
 
K

Kratos Aurion

Guest
Up to your usual trolling, eh rico? Must be nice to be immune to moderator infractions...


No I am not asking for anything, this is just a discussion about the word "consent" and what that really means.
But you used fel as your subject which was an extremely poor choice...

It just seems to me like you were trying to bring something to everyones attention we were already aware of to start an extremely long and subjective arguement.

Lets sum this conversation up and wrap it up with this

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consent

Consent

-verb (used without object) 1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
2. Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.

None of these apply to Fel because game mechanics/rules specify that anyone can actively steal, attack or pronounce aggression towards another character freely of their own will.

So in reallity your poll was a poor misused attempt to bring forth a definition that takes as little as 5 seconds to Google if you really try.

Heres my new oath.

By entering the "red gate", I hearby consent that I acknowledge the dangers that this facet "Felucca" presents and shall not whine when I get PK'd because I consenually agreed to the rule settings of in-game mechanics.

fin.
 
R

Radun

Guest
There was a reason why I chose the scenario I did, and just because you missed that does not make it a bad choice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consent

Consent

-verb (used without object) 1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
2. Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.

None of these apply to Fel because game mechanics/rules specify that anyone can actively steal, attack or pronounce aggression towards another character freely of their own will.
I was already fully aware of the definition, but thanks for providing this thread with it in case anyone missed it the first 5+ times.. Congrats on finally coming around to seeing it my way though. What you just said is basically exactly what I have been saying all along, in different words.
Being in fel does not automatically mean that you consented to anything. Ruleset allows someone to kill you =/= giving them permission to... they still can kill you, with or without your approval.
It does not mean that you agreed to anything that anyone asked you, because you are not required to agree with anything to get into fel.
You can get into fel without agreeing, and actually nobody is ever even asked to agree with anything.

Heres my new oath.

By entering the "red gate", I hearby consent that I acknowledge the dangers that this facet "Felucca" presents and shall not whine when I get PK'd because I consenually agreed to the rule settings of in-game mechanics.

fin.
Congrats on making it known to everyone that you wish to be PKed.
You just consented to being PKed any time you ever travel to fel... that does not mean that everyone else in fel consented to anything at all.... at all.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Those would be accurate forms of consent. Consent can't really be loosely defined to anything because every person thinks differently.
Yet you just gave a list of examples in your post of what would constitute consent. I think the fact that Trammel and Felucca now exist side by side is, essentially, irrelevant to whether we qualify a particular behavior as consensual or non-consensual PvP. This whole thread has basically been filled with people trying to claim that exactly the same behavior which was variously called PK'ing, griefing, or out of control non-consensual PvP saying that now, because Trammel exists, the same behavior cannot be called non-consensual simply because players can choose to never go to Fel.

Which overlooks, of course, the fact that there are MANY reasons to go to Fel, which have nothing to do with PvP. And that it is obvious to everyone that characters obviously not intended for PvP fighting, and not seeking it out, are indeed present in Felucca. The fact that we even throw around the scenario of the "crafter killed with his pack horse" attests to the fact that everyone knows, as common knowledge, that not everyone in Felucca is there because they wish to engage in PvP. That's a pretty self-evident fact.

What we're getting at, though, is whether or not someone has agreed to take part in PvP by their simple presence. Your argument is that yes, they do. My argument is that no, they don't, and clearly someone does not wish to PvP when they flee, attempt to hide, or recall out. In fact it should never even be necessary to see any of that to know if someone consents to PvP with you... if you're there on your stealth-archer and you see the guy mining, I think you'd have to be a pretty dense cookie in the first place to be under any delusions that the willing reason that character is present, is to PvP with you.

The final nail in the coffin, really, is the fact that a flagging system exists on all shards and facets where PvP'ers claim "PvP is intended in the ruleset", such as Felucca and Siege Perilous, and that murder counts and murder reporting exists. The game flat out recognizes that there are unprovoked, unjustified negative player actions on other players which the game mechanics both keep track of and penalize. To say that the open rulesets themselves imply that by stepping through you are consenting in advance to every negative action which shall ever be perpetrated on you by another player in Felucca requires us to ignore completely that there are murder counts, red and blue status, criminal flagging and various other penalties to being a red character. Why have any of those things if by even being present on the facet, you've already consented to being murdered, robbed and looted?

But according to the rule settings of Fel (which is why tram was made), players who decide to travel in Fel consent to the rules that apply to the facet.
They consent to the RULES OF THE FACET. Again right back to the same argument you and several others have repeatedly ignored, KNOWLEDGE THAT THE SHARK MIGHT BITE YOU IS NOT CONSENT GIVEN TO THE SHARK TO DO SO. This repeated, REPEATED flaw in the logic of that whole side of this argument which you have done little but repeat does not make it more true by sheer repetition.

And to the people who have made remarks about how making real-life comparisons is ridiculous ... please. The same arguments you have all made about stepping in Fel HAS BEEN and IS made about real-life situations. See: Hurricane Katrina. If I had a penny for everytime I had to listen to some half-wit saying "well they got what they deserved, if they were stupid enough to live in an area that was below sea level, screw 'em, they were stupid, it's Darwinism." Despite the fact that plenty of nations and societies have major population centers below sea level, like the Netherlands. And the victim-blaming mentality clouding rational thought is very much equivalent between the people making that claim and making the claim that you've agreed to have all sorts of grief behavior handed to you by stepping in Fel for any reason. When you step through, you acknowledge a risk that other players can perform negative acts on you. That's not the same thing as giving consent to PvP with any player who happens upon you. Players may PvP you WITHOUT your consent... and you may give them a murder count in consequence. In any consensual PvP scenario an option to give a murder count wouldn't have come up.

If you reread the thread I submitted prior, I said there is no form of "legal" consent. Meaning game-mechanics wise. Only player consenual agreements.
Really this is just getting into semantics. Let's cut right to what's "really" being said between the lines. What's really being said is that since there is Tram and Fel now, there is no PK behavior. No griefing. No shameful or cowardly behavior of any sort. No negative behavior of any sort. Because no matter how intentionally malicious or nasty or antisocial someone's playstyle is, no matter how much the same behavior would have been called griefing or PK'ing 9 years ago in UO, it's all perfectly acceptable behavior everyone agrees to in advance now. When I go in Fel I acknowledge the change in ruleset. I do not give you permission to kill me, my horse, and then camp stealthed near the corpse for an hour so that I give up and go do something else. That's entirely up to you--- the ruleset LETS YOU DO IT, but you do not have my consent to do it. You have only the capability to do it. Very separate things.

By the same logic we are discussing.... a cop not being around means that I have consented to let you rob me. You can, after all, and there's no cop to stop you..... and I can clearly see there's no cop, so I must have implicitly given you permission to do it. If I didn't want you to do it, I would have stuck closer to a cop.

Not perfect, at all.... but certainly the basic circular self-rationalizing logic is there.
 

Duskofdead

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
-verb (used without object) 1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
2. Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.

None of these apply to Fel because game mechanics/rules specify that anyone can actively steal, attack or pronounce aggression towards another character freely of their own will.

So in reallity your poll was a poor misused attempt to bring forth a definition that takes as little as 5 seconds to Google if you really try.
But there are consequences to all of those behaviors. The game itself recognizes non-consensual acts. If a thief steals from you you may kill them with no consequence, and take their items with no consequence. If a person murders you when you did nothing to justify their attack, you can give them a murder count. Accepting your argument that consent cannot apply in Fel because of the ruleset requires us to mentally block out game mechanics which have been in place for the majority of UO to separate consensual from non-consensual player vs. player actions.


Heres my new oath.

By entering the "red gate", I hearby consent that I acknowledge the dangers that this facet "Felucca" presents and shall not whine when I get PK'd because I consenually agreed to the rule settings of in-game mechanics.

fin.
This is most certainly what you and the majority of the people who answered the poll had in their minds in terms of the issue of consent. But the poll was not "do you have the right to whine if mistreated in Fel", even though that is how most people apparently interpreted the question when answering the poll.
(Reading comprehension FTW.)

Being in fel does not automatically mean that you consented to anything. Ruleset allows someone to kill you =/= giving them permission to... they still can kill you, with or without your approval.
Exactly. This point is so simple that I can't see how anyone can fail to grasp it.... unless they are arguing the point for a motive other than discussing the issue of consent. I suspect more of what's going on here is an attempt to say "whatever I do to players in Fel is 100% upstanding and nothing wrong, because the ruleset says I can." A whitewashing of griefing and PK behaviors as "fine" under the false assertion that all of your victims consented to whatever you did to them.
 

Amren

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Just wondering where everyone draws the line on consensual/non-consensual pvp regarding fel.

Discuss...

or don't.
I think it's pretty simple. You go to fel, you consented to pvp and everything else that goes on there.

This is why I think the whole murder count thing is not needed since we have a pvp-switch.
 
R

Radun

Guest
You go to fel, you consented to pvp and everything else that goes on there.
At what point was the consent given? It wasn't. You're never actually asked whether you agree to anything being done to you.
Simply going into 'an area where pvp is possible' is not exactly the same thing as giving consent to pvp with anyone.

If you go there, it's possible to be killed, whether or not you consent.
 
F

FishinFool

Guest
After reading through alot of these posts it's pretty clear most of you never played before the split.

Sosaria was simply an open world with open interaction with your fellow gamers. Quite unlike the state of the game today, it was not nor was it ever a "war zone".

Consentual PVP, is it is being applied or rather mis-applied here, has no real correlation to the past system. The world had an open ended PVP system, obviously, but simply the act of creating an account and logging into UO did not mean you were consenting to it, nor would it be the same today simply because you chose to return to the old world to do something.

This is where the old bounty system came in and a short time later, the ability to add murder counts.

The best form of consentual PVP that came out of UO was guild wars and factions, frankly I do not like factions at all, but it is a consentual system.

What the real argument here is wether or not the murder count mechanic is still relevent to today's rules. In my opinion, it is still valid. If you do not want to get a murder count, don't arbitrarily kill people.. pretty simple.

If people are mis-using the system out of spite, that's another thing entirely - perhaps that should be looked in to - but the same basic premise applies. If you do not want murder counts, avoid being an agressor and avoid attacking people who are otherwise minding their own business.

The split was brought about for a great many reasons and it had a lot more to do with real world competition than player complaints. New games had been or were being released with either no-PVP at all or you had to opt in 100% - either by following a game mechanic, entering an out of the way PVP area or seperate servers entirely.

In an attempt to "keep up with the Jones'" a few critical systems that used to govern and steer player behavior were either changed or removed. While they were well intentioned at the time - they amounted to nothing more than appeasement and the consequences were never fully thought out.

What we have now is the result of those actions - a nearly consequence free system that brings out the worst in people most of the time.

Sosaria was not designed as a kill zone or some FFA frag fest, but over time you all turned Felucca into one.
 

Elric_Soban

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Of course it's consent. "Non-consentual PvP" does not exist in UO anymore, because the very act of GOING to fel is giving consent to being attacked.

Well, i suppose 'consent' isnt the right word - its more like signing off on a warning. "Enter at your own risk".. or, "WARNING: MINEFIELD".. so you could go play volleyball on the crowded beach like everyone else, or you could go play it in that minefield over there. It doesnt nessesarily mean you WANT to step on a mine, but by playing in a MINEFIELD you accept the risk of dying. Or choosing to swim in a shark tank instead of a normal swimming pool. A shark doesnt need your consent to eat you, so by entering his tank your basically saying 'i could be in that safe swimming pool over there, but im choosing to be in your tank instead. I dont want to be eaten, but i do understand that chances are, i WILL be eaten sooner or later. Therefore, getting eaten is entirely my fault.'

Everyone knows how tram vs fel works. By entering fel, for ANY reason, you are signing your name on the dotted line that you know and understand the risks. I think all of that knowledge and understanding is enough to basically equal consent. If you CHOOSE to mine in fel, you are CHOOSING to ALLOW people to kill you.. therefore, consent.

As for people who've lived there all along - they can move. Or do their business in tram. By staying, you are playing by all the above rules.
 
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