UO Sandbox or Not?

[MrWilliams]

After scrolling through many of the posts and topics available on this board, the one issue that keeps being brought up again and again seems to be a longing for the old days when communities were large and strong.

I remember playing in 1998 when Britannia was bustling with players, each with different agendas and play styles. This densely populated world thrust a diverse range of players together each forced to interact in order to further their own needs.

At this time it was extremely difficult to place a house and one had to save up and work their way up the property ladder. The need for more housing and a contingent of players who were unhappy with UO's dangerous and unforgiving environment lead to the creation of Trammel, a separate land mass.

I remember at the time noticing that this addition split and fragmented the community severely, however, the developers responded positively, things picked up, Fel was still popular with factioneers and things continued nicely.

Since the inception of Trammel more and more land masses have been added with each new content release. This combined with a decrease in subscribers over the years has left many of the once grand UO shards empty and lonely places.

Do you think in hindsight that it was wrong to continually add new land masses? Even with the populations of the past, the level of player interaction would be severely reduced. And in a sandbox game Community and player interaction is VITAL to the success of the game.

UO to me at this time feels like a game without direction. A sandbox game which doesn't know if it wants to be a sandbox. A game which is trying to please all the people all the time and consequently is leaving all parties feeling like they are getting an inadequate share of attention.

In my opinion (which I’m sure many players will disagree with, inevitable really when you have a diverse player base), UO should go back to its roots and provide a full blown sandbox experience.

The creation of a classic shard would certainly aid this as the restricted land mass and uncomplicated crafting, armour and combat system were the strengths of the Sandbox powerhouse that was UO.

I believe that Cal Crowner and the other Devs have a unique chance to give UO back to the community it was founded upon. A chance to secure their names in Ultima history alongside Lord British and Lord Blackthorn.

Will they seize the initiative and transform UO back into the sandbox giant which is so clearly missing from the MMO market. Or will the game continue to lack direction and dwindle away into the folklore of gaming history?

 

[Babble]

Hmm, UO is a sandbox.
And Sandboxes is not where the money is.
EA is where the money is.
Which leaves us with UO without direction

Here is a bit more talk about UO successors
The UO successor - The Pub at MMORPG.COM - General Discussion - MMORPG.com Forums

And they probably are right that UO was a fluke which will never be reproduced.

When UO launched all niches played uo (craftersm rper, pvm, pvp, horders...). This does not exist anymore as HUNDREDS of mmos seperate the communities.

 

[Smoot]

In short i agree with all you said. One thing i would have liked to see was with expansions like SE and SA, even AOS was the creation of housing areas not just in a trammel based ruleset. Maybe half and half. Imagine if Ter Mur and the new SA housing areas were all fel ruleset. People would still buy the expansion for the content.

One thing you have to think about is that a subscription base (not player base) is from people with multiple account, mainly just for houses. I know of many people with 5-25 accounts. most of these people are not pvpers, so maybe thats the reasoning for no new pvp area housing, and little fel content.

Back to player interaction. Its a very old game. The vet players basically all have every type of crafter, and with imbuing most have stopped even searching others goods for something they might have made that fit into a suit.

I know on Atlantic theres really only 2 types of guilds / player communities. The pvp ones, which expectantly are mostly newer players (or ones who only appear to be teenagers) and RP guilds who rarely interact outside of the rp community. A 3rd type of player community would be rares collectors who dont rp or pvp. Then you have "merchants" "scammers" (the new uo theives) and the few pvm only guilds.

So, theres an abundance of communities, just not much interaction between them. How to solve this, i dont know.

Compared to the other mmorpgs out there, imo UO is still the most complex and "Sandboxy" game there is, even if that sandbox is split up into multiple areas.

 

[Thav12]

i like this discussion.

My take on this is that true sandbox environments, such as found in our real lives, are ultimately also constrained by rules and regulations. In real life as well, there is a constant moving of the moral and ethical "borders" of society, making it impossible to define. The best way we know how to do that is by defining laws, laws that inherently are going to be reflecitve of the moral state of society as it were at the time the laws were first devised. This by definition results in law trailing the actual moral state of a society at any given time.

The complexity of a game that would truly capture a whole society, with all its pro's, con's and in it's full moral system is enormous, and would almost imply you could capture and simplify life itself. The naive and honorable attempt of the makers of UO to do this, as a first game in history (and likely the last) resulted in a true awakening in the world as we know it. Multiple articles have been written about the social and economical context of UO as a game world, and it served as a model for so many games to follow.

The problem ultimately is that the ideal sandbox game is too difficult to maintain or conceptually design. It is flawed in its (naive and honorable) goal that it can capture a real society, distill it to its essence and still maintain balance and equity. Even real society can not maintain that and is constantly readjusting by means of elections, law making and corrections by judicial branches. That is why some people just need to get a life and not seek it in UO, as UO will always dissapoint in that respect. Yet, it is the greatest game ever made and the most phenomenal attempt at creating a true virtual reality. I enjoy it every day I can, and then come here to pancake about it just like everyone else on this forum... I'd say, come back and enjoy it. Be part of the mayham and come to Stratics to complain.

 

[MrWilliams]

Hi Thav,

Thanks for your input and some interesting points, however, I still think that striving for complexity is not necessarily the best way to go with a sandbox game. It was the simplicity of UO in its initial stages that really made it accessible and immersive to many.

Furthermore, on the point about laws, again I believe that just a minimum of core laws are needed, as the over regulation we see today really stifles gameplay to a point that a lot of the freedom has gone. Core game rules are a must but the rest of the rules as to what is socially acceptable should be decided and policed by the community itself, like in the early days.

Just my thoughts of course

 

[Uvtha]

Hi Thav,

Thanks for your input and some interesting points, however, I still think that striving for complexity is not necessarily the best way to go with a sandbox game. It was the simplicity of UO in its initial stages that really made it accessible and immersive to many.

It was the novelty of the experience that made old UO engaging.

 

[Fat Midnight]

UO is dead. Even a classic shard will not save it, so just give it a rest. I kinda wish we had all just canceled our accounts the same day and let it die with dignity.

 

[MalagAste]

Why is it every subject becomes classic shard and FEL.

No I wouldn't go to Ter Mur or Tokuno if they were in Fel.

Don't spend hardly any time in Fel as it is. Not going to start no matter what they put there.

I do NOT think either one of those things is the answer. Though I do think that there needs to be more excitement... Truth is a vast majority of folk play for PvM which of late stinks. The DEV's idea of making better monsters is to beef them up so no one can damage them... give them attacks that one hit kill and increase their HP. They don't give them a better AI. Top that off with the EC folk who suffer everytime they use that novablast spell that every monster of late uses... while yes it "looks" cool it totally crashes the EC.

What the game needs is better AI. Needs a revamping of numerous dungeons, systems and towns.

The Luck system needs fixed. The RNG needs to be overhauled. The old anti-virtue dungeons need a revamp to bring them up to speed with newer dungeons, made more interesting. They don't do so well with the old 10th anniversary drops alone. This includes the FEL side. Risk vs Reward is a JOKE. There is NO risk if you are in a huge Zerg guild. For all other people NOT in the Zerg guild on larger shard there is little to NO point in even going to Fel. They need to bring back the friendly fire. Area effects and fields should effect EVERYONE in Fel... not just your enemies.

Ship to ship fighting wouldn't be any fun if your cannons only worked on your enemies. Its fun to play against your guildmates as well... and it makes you THINK before you act. Takes something called Tactics.

Is UO still a sandbox... heck yes... however when the Sandbox is filled with people who only are playing for THEMSELVES and think NOTHING of community you end up with hundreds of folk playing a single player give me, give me, get, get, get.... game..... Rather than a community game of MMORPG. The game of late and rewards have been designed around the GIMMIES... All rewards have been highly selfserving and have been about antisocialism rather than community..... they have also been highly ANTI-Virtue... rather than working on Virtue.....

Sadly in a game designed around Virtue we promote Anti-virtue and Anti-socialism and reward that behavior.

So what happens is the community dies and the single player wins.

So it's no wonder to me that many people think of things as "It's just a game my actions don't matter at all".....

And these same folk have ZERO thoughts about Anti-socialism.... they find that cheating, stealing, hacking, and scamming others is just fine. They fail to care that there are other people behind those other players who have feelings.

While many think it's just a game and just pixels when you have poured over 13 years of devotion into the game what's there feels to you every bit as if someone broke into your home and stole your heirlooms... When folk steal in-game it feels just the same. You may argue that it does not but when we talk about some folk who have played this game for 13 years and if you play every night to say 5 days a week or so... we are actually talking about folk spending more time playing the game and working on their In-game home.... than their RL home time. If you factor in folk going to work and all most of the day. When you think about it that way to many folk who play that pixelated home that they have worked hard to get really does mean something.

Especially to those few in the game who do devote their time to community. By putting on events, helping the young and showing support to others. Yes it's a Sandbox still and will continue to be so long as those few continue to do the things they do.

 

[Novak(Caci)]

Yes for me uo is a sandbox game too.
I played uo now 6.5 years.I tryed other online games but its not the same like uo.My first account i has after BETa sep 1997.So i know what you are talking about about this classic ahard.
But i play EVE online too and i have to mention that for me EVe is sanbox game too.

 

[LeBaiton]

UO is still a huge sandbox...

The main problem is, and I've said this to fellow guildmates aswell, when you start the game you're on the outskirts of the sandbox and the sandbox is huge. The more experience you get ingame, and the further your character develops, you'll gravitate to the center of the sandbox where all the end-game content is...

It's not a matter of the sandbox getting smaller, but it's players are mostly all circling around the sandbox's centerpoint nowadays. There's a huge ammount of content. The best advice I can give you is actually trying out some of it, you'll find that there's stuff out there you've never done before. It keeps the game interresting...

 

[Thav12]

Hi Thav,

Thanks for your input and some interesting points, however, I still think that striving for complexity is not necessarily the best way to go with a sandbox game. It was the simplicity of UO in its initial stages that really made it accessible and immersive to many.

Furthermore, on the point about laws, again I believe that just a minimum of core laws are needed, as the over regulation we see today really stifles gameplay to a point that a lot of the freedom has gone. Core game rules are a must but the rest of the rules as to what is socially acceptable should be decided and policed by the community itself, like in the early days.

Just my thoughts of course

I don't dissagree. The problem however is that just like in real life one persons liberties are another persons prison. Malagste, in his contribution in this threat, also confuses those issues. Crime is only crime by virtue of breaking a law or a rule. In a true sandbox environment this means that stealing is "possible" and is part of the game "laws", but is a crime by the social standards in the game. Now, stealing is an easily definable crime and you can be "flagged" when "caught" by in game mechanics and rule-sets. This makes it somewhat fun to play a criminal in a sandbox game, and many modern RPG games have incorporated something similar into their ruleset. However, the problem with crime in games that is allowed by game rules, is that in a social sandbox game that same crime may not be acceptable in the eyes of many. DEfending it by stating that it is in the rules/laws of the game, is misunderstanding that by the social rules and laws it is very damaging. Since there is no game-rule and thus you are left to societal laws to supercede these game rules, there is no way to enforce those societal laws. You can't throw people in jail, in other words, because that would by definition violate the game-rules which "allow" these crimes. This is a vicious cycle that ultimately leads to the trammel-felucca split lands. All games after UO have this split-land rule set division, and it is for this same reason.

Could you possible create complex society based law constructs, a court system, police, a jail system etc? I think one could potentially do that, but the attraction to playing a thief and be caught by other players, who next put you in jail for 10 days, is probably not what most people envision when they longingly look back at the haydays of UO. Without a way to enforce, in a democratic fashion, the rules that the UO society decide is law, any attempt at making a real sandbox game is going to be futile. Not because we (the UO community) don't want it, nor because EA/Mythic would not want to, but because we can logically not agree upon how to create a rule / law construct that is a true reflection of the state of the UO society.

To simplify: for some it is fun to play a murderer, it is an option in the game. Others will thus get murdered. As long as the person who gets murdered gets the same enjoyment out of the game as the murderer, there is balance. however, if the victim does not like to be murdered as much as the murderer likes to kill, this disbalance ought to be defined in a game law that reflects the severity of the crime. This is a moving target. However, if the punishment is severe enough to please the victim, it is likely to be too severe in the murderers mind. Thus, the game play of the murderer is compromised. Since both play styles ultimately are endorsed by the game, each argument is equally valid. The moral stability of the population then should set forth the rules and laws of the land, but that is impossible to capture in a game, I think.

However, where I think this game is as sandboxy as it will ever be, it will always lead to frustrations for some player base, and thus eventually succumb. I like to play it for as long as possible. The contradictions in Malagaste's post are in my mind exactly reflective of the impossibilities described above. (It is a sandbox, but I don't want you to play your game style... that is in a nutshell the root of all these discussions)

To your point that reducing the complexity increases the chance of creating a sandbox game I would have to say that theoretically this is of course correct. However, lack of rules on the side of the game mechanics would require an increase in the ability for the game society to enforce its own rules and laws. Those rules, as described above, can not effectively be enforced, unless coded into the game, which leads impeded gameplay for somebody else. Yet, without that, it would ultimately reflect something like a dessert with people with guns running around killing everybody until there is one man standing, who will then starve a very lonely death...

 

[Smoot]

Why is it every subject becomes classic shard and FEL.

No I wouldn't go to Ter Mur or Tokuno if they were in Fel.

Don't spend hardly any time in Fel as it is. Not going to start no matter what they put there.

I do NOT think either one of those things is the answer. Though I do think that there needs to be more excitement...

So you wouldnt have bought the Samurai Empire and Stygian Abyss expansions if the Housing areas were fel ruleset? I suggested this as a part of the game which has been ignored. Most pvpers are newer players, the rest of us have mainly gotten bored of it after 13 years. And UO always needs new players. Having more people in pvp areas, an incentive to be there be it higher drop rates, dungeons with unique drops, or whatever would encourage more people to pvp, or at least be there and try to evade death. Like i said, i was really thinking about new players when i said this. With faction gear and imbuing gear isnt a setback for new players anymore, so i think more pvp areas would definitly give some life, and more new player base to the game.

 

[Trebr Drab]

I've grown tired of arguing things over the years so I'm not going to get into points vs. points with anyone. But I wanted to state my case once again on this issue.

First, UO is still a "Sandbox", and by far the best one available now and for the foreseeable future. But it could be better. Much better. "Sandbox" has gone backwards since UO in leaps and bounds, until today we have a finely tuned WoW that is in a completely opposite direction.

When speaking of "Sandbox", we have to remember that everything is on a scale. More than that, there are different aspects of "Sandbox" that are all on different scales.

UO, it's aspects and scale of Sandbox: And grades according to Drab (scale 1-10, 10 being the best possible)--


World interaction: This is being able to reach out and touch the world, affecting it, doing things with it. UO has been and still is, by far, the best on this scale. You can drop items in the world and use that as markers or for player events. It feels "realistic" as part of being in a world. You can open things, sit on things, use things that are just lying there, look at things for a better description, etc. You can write books!

Yet, there is so much more that could be done. Draw bridges, secret doors, traps, information left in descriptions or books, etc.

--Grade: Believe it or not, for as good as UO is, I give this a grade of only 6 on a scale of 1-10. Not because it's lacking but because it could be used to so much more effect and entertainment. Other games that I've seen get no better than a 2, as they barely touch this in your daily game play.

NPCs, MOBs, AI (artificial intelligence): UO, like all other games, is lacking very much lacking here. They do have a little more than most others though. The use of keywords is one. But UO, originally, was supposed to be much better at AI. Creatures had (maybe still have?) "desires". Gold, food, etc. Remember Richard Garriott's claims that Dragons would get hungry if the deer in their area were hunted out, and then roam farther in search of food, maybe attacking cities in their need.

But I believe that AI can be developed to a much, much, more detailed system. Both for individuals and groups. I think "recognition" can be applied, and weighted random results based on that ability to recognize. If a group of orcs are being devastated by players, shouldn't those still alive think "maybe I should leave"? Yet some may be feeling heroic and all suicidal and everything. Weighted random decisions. And if there's a leader of a group of Orcs, might he not issue an order to "retreat"?
Add in "memory", where should they retreat to? "Home", of course, if there is a home, where there's protection in numbers. Or another room, if doorways are tagged, it's not that difficult. And if doorways can be tagged by the game, can't Orcs add a notation to that tag that "here are friends"?

And if a group of Orcs move into a dungeon room, and decide to make it "home" because they seek "home" and have none, why can't they build defensive structures? (Defensive structures are another thing that UO could add, for players too. Especially if they want to add player built towns.) And if they can build a home, and fortify it, can they not go back to the above, and "tag" paths as "here are friends"? Can these tags not also have a directional component to them?

--Grade: Almost 0, like all other MMOs.

Social: This is what this topic is really about. MMOs have gone backwards here too. EVE being the exception, yet EVE isn't a true world, being a space only "universe" where you play with your spaceships, and lack avatars and "on the ground" game play.
And UO almost had it, almost.

Socially, there's glue in "need". But need is not just about PvP.
Need can also be about grouping to gain or to build. UO does a very good job in the "need to gain". If it were to add player built cities, and add many community things that add capability to said cities, then they would leap ahead in this social sphere. Warehouses, caravans, shipping, enhanced crafting centers, enhanced resource constructions (mines, farms, mills, etc.). Games don't need to build a "Politics" system. EVE shows this, give players the tools and the politics will follow, and be "real" and far better than any coded system developers could possibly design. (Card games, wth?!)

Now lets look at what we have here, and get to the real point of the topic, PvP. Do we need "wide open PvP" to make it interesting? Not necessarily. On the scale, PvP would be enhanced beyond the current guild war status if there were more behind it. Wars that had more meaning, capturing city owned resource centers, waylaying caravans, raiding warehouses, these things can add meaning to PvP in a "war" system.

Now, I need to spell this out.
-Suppose a player city can build a mine shaft. Right now, a play gets an ore for a whack.
-Suppose there's a 20% chance in a city's mine shaft that a player gets another extra ore on any swing. Players would come, even those not belonging to said city.
-Suppose further, that on any swing of the ol' pick axe, that there's a 10% chance that an extra ore is mined, and it goes directly to the city owned warehouse, to be used by that city for constructions or trade.
-Players have nothing to lose, something to gain, and cities gain too.
-Suppose this mine shaft can be captured by enemy cities in warfare.
-Players still have nothing to lose, city has something to gain/lose. It matters, but not directly to the players. It matters indirectly to the players because their city now will have less future resources to build with.
-Add in the already established ability to build defenses, fortifications, such as the Orcs did in their home.

This creates "need" that acts as a social glue. This would add a huge boost to "Sandbox" in the social sphere.

That leaves crime. PvP outside of warfare, unsanctioned. If this is left wide open, it will only drive players away. First go the "carebears". Then starts the exodus of those brash young folks who thought they could do well, but find out they are now the targets because the "carebears" have left. When they constantly lose to better organized groups, they too will leave. No one plays to lose when there are no options to success. Oh, yes, many would join the successful groups/guilds. Soon you have what Fel became. A few large groups and not much else. The PvP becomes stagnant and meaningless. It becomes controlled, almost scripted and planned. It becomes boring. More leave. In the end, you have a few hardcore, and no one else. 10,000 players is not enough to keep an MMO alive.

So, if you want to have crime, you also must have a justice system. One that works to do 2 things.
1) To vastly reduce the rampant PKing that would otherwise occur.
2) To give satisfaction to the "victims", so that they know they were not left hung out to dry.

And you get some side affects too.
-You get a natural occurring bounty system based on self defense.
-You get a more "realistic" world, a better "Sandbox".
-You create even more "need" for the social sphere.

This leaves one thing that a justice system allows for. Any game has a boatload of griefing based on players just being jerks. They don't have to kill you, they don't have to steal from you, there are many ways to grief. (Spammers, for example.)
But cities and city owned constructions can offer a means to allow "sanctioned" players to handle griefers within their own cities.
-Suppose that a city can build small guard stations.
-Suppose cities can rank key players as guards.
-Suppose these guards can kill any player within a radius of a guard station. They won't kill indiscriminately, because driving players away is bad for the city's business through the harvesting/trade benefits. There can also be a means for a city to place bounties, including on a rogue guard.

--Grade: on the social sphere of "Sandbox" in UO, about a 2. It could be about a 7 with cities, but no justice system or PKing. It could be about a 10 with.

I know, way too long. I don't expect many to read and try to comprehend all this. But these things are not as simple as a one-liner, ya know?

 

[Thav12]

Trebr-- I appreciate your post very much. You took the time to provide UO related insights to my post. I agree with most of your analyses. Most of all I appreciate the notion that despite it's obvious flaws and shortcomings it still is the closest to a free reign fantasy world with the most sandbox feel of any game I know.

One question I would fire back at you though is this: is your analysis more of a requiem to a great game that could have been so much more?

Personally I think that the current mix of -flawed- systems still provide for the best game experience hands down. I would favor the current course the development of UO has taken. Small but substantial tweaks and additions to game and game systems to improve what we have, rather than adding new stuff. I think dynamic mob AI would add more than PVP arenas, but I could see arguments for both. And no this thread is not about classic shard or free reign pvp. Read it well before you post stuff like that. Again Trebr, thanks for your insightful post.

 

[Trebr Drab]

One question I would fire back at you though is this: is your analysis more of a requiem to a great game that could have been so much more?

And still could be. So it's not so much a "requiem", unless they never go in that direction. Honestly, I think they want to go there and are taking steps, if very small. It's, again, something that's on a scale.

 

[Trebr Drab]

One question I would fire back at you though is this: is your analysis more of a requiem to a great game that could have been so much more?

And still could be. So it's not so much a "requiem", unless they never go in that direction. Honestly, I think they want to go there and are taking steps, if very small. It's, again, something that's on a scale.

Adding: I mean, if Saltpeter doesn't seem like something that would fit right into the spirit of what I outlined above, then I dunno what to say. I could be wrong, of course I admit to that.

 

[Smoot]

Now lets look at what we have here, and get to the real point of the topic, PvP. Do we need "wide open PvP" to make it interesting? Not necessarily. On the scale, PvP would be enhanced beyond the current guild war status if there were more behind it. Wars that had more meaning, capturing city owned resource centers, waylaying caravans, raiding warehouses, these things can add meaning to PvP in a "war" system.

Now, I need to spell this out.
-Suppose a player city can build a mine shaft. Right now, a play gets an ore for a whack.
-Suppose there's a 20% chance in a city's mine shaft that a player gets another extra ore on any swing. Players would come, even those not belonging to said city.
-Suppose further, that on any swing of the ol' pick axe, that there's a 10% chance that an extra ore is mined, and it goes directly to the city owned warehouse, to be used by that city for constructions or trade.
-Players have nothing to lose, something to gain, and cities gain too.
-Suppose this mine shaft can be captured by enemy cities in warfare.
-Players still have nothing to lose, city has something to gain/lose. It matters, but not directly to the players. It matters indirectly to the players because their city now will have less future resources to build with.
-Add in the already established ability to build defenses, fortifications, such as the Orcs did in their home.

This creates "need" that acts as a social glue. This would add a huge boost to "Sandbox" in the social sphere.

That leaves crime. PvP outside of warfare, unsanctioned. If this is left wide open, it will only drive players away. First go the "carebears". Then starts the exodus of those brash young folks who thought they could do well, but find out they are now the targets because the "carebears" have left. When they constantly lose to better organized groups, they too will leave. No one plays to lose when there are no options to success. Oh, yes, many would join the successful groups/guilds. Soon you have what Fel became. A few large groups and not much else. The PvP becomes stagnant and meaningless. It becomes controlled, almost scripted and planned. It becomes boring. More leave. In the end, you have a few hardcore, and no one else. 10,000 players is not enough to keep an MMO alive.

Great Post. I just had to comment on these two paragraphs. The first because i think this would be an excellent idea (although you already get twice the resources when mining / lumberjacking in fel) It could be applied to many other things as well.

The second part, when you people in non-organized pvp groups would get frustrated and leave, and that most of these are younger players, i have to totally disagree with. In the pvp guilds im in, almost all the players are relatively new to the game. Newer / younger players almost always use vent when pvping, which leads to much more organized and successful wins in pvp.

My final comment on why "Fel" is in this post -because pvp is a huge community, and by simply adding some incentives for more people to go to pvp areas you make the game more attractive to new players, while merging the pvp community with the pvm and even rp communities. Special pvp only spawns / loot, this could be just about anything, and areas attractive to rp groups (and yes many rp groups pvp a decent amount, and many are already faction)

 

[Novak(Caci)]

Treber

The point is that EVe will get in about 2 month new expansion where everyone will have his own AVATAR and naechst step is to bring update to walk with your EVe avatar on the stations.

 

[MalagAste]

So you wouldnt have bought the Samurai Empire and Stygian Abyss expansions if the Housing areas were fel ruleset? I suggested this as a part of the game which has been ignored. Most pvpers are newer players, the rest of us have mainly gotten bored of it after 13 years. And UO always needs new players. Having more people in pvp areas, an incentive to be there be it higher drop rates, dungeons with unique drops, or whatever would encourage more people to pvp, or at least be there and try to evade death. Like i said, i was really thinking about new players when i said this. With faction gear and imbuing gear isnt a setback for new players anymore, so i think more pvp areas would definitly give some life, and more new player base to the game.

I've seen many people try to encourage folk to PvP. But lets face reality.... even if those areas were in the fel ruleset... they would be as empty as most of Fel.....

Kinda like 100's of towns who's people commute to work. They are called bedroom towns. That's what it is.

Let me spell this out for all of you.... More people will NOT want to PvP if everytime they step into Fel to go to an event they are constantly killed, rez killed, killed again..... and on and on... If every time they are invited to anything in Fel and all the Zerg idiots show up and do their thing eventually NO one will go to the events. This is why 99.9% of events are NOT held in Fel. Because if those in Fel know about them they will quickly become a massive deathfest..... and NO getting killed over and over will NOT encourage others to go there.

Most people don't go to fel for any number of reasons. First of all they believe whether it's false or not that all Fel players use CHEATS and HACKS. Now we all know this isn't true but most peoples idea's are based on what they have witnessed and seen.... or heard from others.

I'll tell you this.... a vast majority of players only Fel experience has been at the hands of scammers. Think about that... Scammers who cheat and use exploits in order to lure them into Fel and once again often using cheats and scams and exploits steal from these players.

So.... what becomes the consensus is that all Fel players are scammers and cheats.

Add to that the constant foul language and all spammed all over General chat and you wonder why again anyone wants to go to fel????

Then you top that off with the foul rotten behavior shown by people who name there characters Fel this or Fel that... and they spout off and become very offensive and trashy at every EM event and yet still people wonder why more folk don't want to come to fel....... ???

Hum.... well let me say this it's not rocket science here. Ok.... plain as day if you ask me.

And then finally there are the bunch of folk like myself who either don't have the internet connection to do half the PvM stuff let alone think about PvP or their computer is older than most the other MMO's out there.. 5 to 10 years plus old and you would understand why they don't PvP.

That and then they do try to PvP and are told to go to this site and that site and download this and that and everything else .... and honestly I prefer not to. If I had to cheat to compete ... I'd rather not play at all because really... if you do cheat to win it's not a win at all...

But not everyone sees it that way.

So NO I would not care to buy crap if it was sold as a Fel expansion..... I wouldn't bother.

As for just the housing Fel... what is the point? You can go just about anywhere in Fel and place a house so why add more housing to an area that is devoid of people anyway?

Force more people to put up with the Fel garbage?? I'm betting if you looked at it... you'd find that over 60% of houses in Fel are there but like bedroom towns.... these people who live there only do so because at the time it was the best available housing... and they don't really PLAY there... or in the case of some of the people I know... they still live there... because they have ALWAYS lived there.... Yet they don't really play there much.

 

[copycon]

I'm enjoying all of the shared opinions in this thread.

 

[Lady Storm]

After scrolling through many of the posts and topics available on this board, the one issue that keeps being brought up again and again seems to be a longing for the old days when communities were large and strong.

I remember playing in 1998 when Britannia was bustling with players, each with different agendas and play styles. This densely populated world thrust a diverse range of players together each forced to interact in order to further their own needs.

At this time it was extremely difficult to place a house and one had to save up and work their way up the property ladder. The need for more housing and a contingent of players who were unhappy with UO's dangerous and unforgiving environment lead to the creation of Trammel, a separate land mass.

I remember at the time noticing that this addition split and fragmented the community severely, however, the developers responded positively, things picked up, Fel was still popular with factioneers and things continued nicely.

Since the inception of Trammel more and more land masses have been added with each new content release. This combined with a decrease in subscribers over the years has left many of the once grand UO shards empty and lonely places.

Do you think in hindsight that it was wrong to continually add new land masses? Even with the populations of the past, the level of player interaction would be severely reduced. And in a sandbox game Community and player interaction is VITAL to the success of the game.

UO to me at this time feels like a game without direction. A sandbox game which doesn't know if it wants to be a sandbox. A game which is trying to please all the people all the time and consequently is leaving all parties feeling like they are getting an inadequate share of attention.

In my opinion (which I’m sure many players will disagree with, inevitable really when you have a diverse player base), UO should go back to its roots and provide a full blown sandbox experience.

The creation of a classic shard would certainly aid this as the restricted land mass and uncomplicated crafting, armour and combat system were the strengths of the Sandbox powerhouse that was UO.

I believe that Cal Crowner and the other Devs have a unique chance to give UO back to the community it was founded upon. A chance to secure their names in Ultima history alongside Lord British and Lord Blackthorn.

Will they seize the initiative and transform UO back into the sandbox giant which is so clearly missing from the MMO market. Or will the game continue to lack direction and dwindle away into the folklore of gaming history?

I dont know WHO you are but I do have my suspisions your a Trouble maker.

The era UO bagan was in a time of early flux in the whole online time for most of the population who had a computer they could honstly say was theirs to play with(based on cost to buy one at the time being around 2-5k).
Not many could dole out the vast amount of cash back then for a decient unit, softwear and extras.
OSI came out with UO at a peak time in that history of early home computing... 99% of the working class public were clueless on computers.
The Average player of UO was adult male, yes there were some of us brave females who were captivated by the game as well.
The age restrictions on the game were way before the rating system we have on games today, so the player base was mature and more way different then the players we have today. Things change and so did people.
UO is not a FLUKE.
I strongly disagree with those puppys, they are imature pups who didnt have a clue of who or what UO was back then (most were fresh out of Pampers).

The reason UO is so low population is basicaly this:
We have had many changes in IRL and in game life. The DEV has changed so many times along with the waves of what direction it was going with these teams.
You have to understand EACH leader of the DEV has their idea of what UO show do and grow to. I wont name names but one such group change got so many in game angry that within 1 month subscriptions droped 10%. That Dev team didnt last long but the dammage they did still stings many. Each new team did dammage, mainly to get corprate off their tails about the bottom line. Understand this all UO is to EA is a minor thorn in their corptate side. Mythic, Bio, and any other they swallow up will one day get the same treatment OSI got. Stock holders couldnt care less what you want, its only care is the dividends at the quarterly.
EA carrys fault in this, when they bought UO/OSI they saw a cash cow that would float many of their other game titles through production and sales back then. Their lack of a solid Dev team who understood the real workings of UO and its population sent most of the population for the next wave of mmo's.
Many in hopes that some other game would return them to the roots of UO.

I said this in the Classic Shard thread and I will repeat myself here. Its not the game style or type of shard. It was the TIME and PLAYERS of that ERA.
You cant go home to something that no longer is the same in mind or existance.
You cant go back to 1997 and play UO. 13 + years have passed but what can change is the bickering in and out of game in this forum. Start being the adults you are. The news said we are loosing our manners in this age. Remember that a please and thank you go along way. A hello and how are you is good to say. That player you just killed might be your best friend. Treat them how you want to be treated doing hte same. Kindness is great.
UO lives.
WE play it every day. Only WE can change the game for the better.
Invite a new friend to come play, tell them dont expect the super grphics or the macho sets of others. UO is UNIQUE, a 1 of a kind game that is based on friends and family who play. Clean up the shards and invite real friends to come in and join you. PERIOD.

Yes UO is a SANDBOX. It's my sandbox, your sandbox. Our Dev team now is just getting to understand how we work. Give them leaway, time and patients too. They are only human, and as it has become ours UO will become their life.

I'd love to go back in time and change the small things that have evolved UO to this low point. I'd be stopping over a hundred different times to do it!
But thats a pipe dream.

UO is ours and we make UO.

 

[Thav12]

Lady storm-- firstly, I don't know what got you so fired up. This thread actually was quite emotion free and reasonable prior to your post. Secondly, most people are just as mature as you claim to be. Maybe more so, as they appear to be able to keep their emotions in check. Thirdly, I agree with a lot of the content of your post. Problem is that it is NOT our uo, as you actually point out. Your cry for civility is a noble one, but will not solve the issues discussed in this thread. Unless we buy UO, actually something that can be achieved if the player base would organize, and hold stock holder meetings to direct the devs we would employ, we are left with voicing our opinions on this forum.

If UO were to be canned by EA, I would actually like to know the price tag to purchase the license and see if it can be purchased by a player coop. It would require a lot of volunteerism to keep it up, but with the right help, subscription fees and good will we can probably keep it going for a long time. Just a thought.

 

[Babble]

I still claim that UO is a fluke like wow.
Both were successful in a special time which cannot be reproduced. If SWTOR manages over 10 million accounts I stand corrected.
And that is also something ea never really understood.
UO can carve out its niches better but it will never be the mainstream like wow managed to be.

And sadly with the exception o EVE the sandbox mmo market ... sucks.

 

[Lady Storm]

Well first off the only emotion there was the bit about time travel.

As for the stock holders of EA. It is quite clear you have never held stocks or you would know how the holders can and do/cant and dont influence the way the parent company works but not to the point you said. While they can change who runs things and make plain the wishes of more revinue from their investments in EA. I assure you the common stock holder cant say Id like to see UO get a classic shard. It dont work that way.

As for the player base buying UO .... I dont think you know what your asking for. Thats a big kettle of fish and I wont go there just to quell your idea.

If the players of the copycat shards (free) would return to UO and pay for the game they have stolen for years. UO might still be a very profitable game and get the deserved love it so badly needs and craves.

Babble sweety UO is not a Fluke as that word means a 1 time event. UO and WoW are not flukes. If that was the case then EVERY game is one. WoW had a great deal of creative people who saw how others worked in the market. There is Years between UO and Blizzard launches. It has viable titles under its belt that started out as box games and went on to online just as UO did. UO suffered from the EA purchase in ways WoW didnt have to go through.
Its great you like EVE.
Dont put UO in a sandbox without placeing it there too.

 

[copycon]

I still claim that UO is a fluke like wow.
Both were successful in a special time which cannot be reproduced. If SWTOR manages over 10 million accounts I stand corrected.
And that is also something ea never really understood.
UO can carve out its niches better but it will never be the mainstream like wow managed to be.

And sadly with the exception o EVE the sandbox mmo market ... sucks.

I think a lot of people are confusing the term "success" with "sustainable".

The truth to the matter is that UO has lost its appeal to a large number due to many factors, and, I think the biggest of those factors is the loss of certain elements that made UO unique and interesting. UO has become a linear repetitive item grind that tries to "be everything that it isn't" and it is clearly visible and a far cry of what it was when it was first introduced to the public. I believe that this is largely due to the different interpretations of the development teams which have declined with each iteration. I also think their biggest mistake to date is the "blind eye" towards listening to customers and providing a product that meets expectations which seems to be one of the few consistent factors.

If UO provided something unique, then people would play simply because it was different from other MMOs. Right now, it doesn't, and the end result isn't pretty.

 

[Babble]

Stealing is such a harsh word when the players use their legit copy to connect to a server which some people offer for free and without making a profit.

What I meant with UO and wow is that both released at certain times and wildly exceeded their predictions. UO estimated a few thousand players? WOW estimated a maximum of 3 million players.

Both I think will not be easily if at all reproducable in the mmo market.
And those that try go with the theme park model as that one is the more sucessful one.

 

[MrWilliams]

You noticed that too, eh?

what the original post is about. This is a disguised "custom shard" "Trammel sux" post.

-Galen's player

You couldn't be more wrong, in fact in my original post whilst recognising that Trammel 'INITIALLY' split the community, I state that the developers reacted positively and with direction.

The question of UO Sandbox or Not, is directed at the developers and asks the question as to whether they want to provide a full sandbox experience based on a vision they have in mind, or whether they want to try and please every single type of player and end up with a watered down, fragmented and dishevelled Sandbox-like game that ends up leaving all payer styles feeling neglected.

I do not deny that there were very strong communities in Trammel, in fact I role-played on Trammel for a long time. My point is that if you do not have a clear direction you end up losing players from all sides.

 

[MrWilliams]

I dont know WHO you are but I do have my suspisions your a Trouble maker.

Could you please explain this statement. I have made every effort to use neutral language and whenever I have stated suggestions I have made clear these are my own. I do not claim that my suggestions are the best ones, in fact the reason I put them out there is so that they can be critiqued and we may all get a little closer to aggrement on a common sustainable direction.

 

[Smoot]

So NO I would not care to buy crap if it was sold as a Fel expansion..... I wouldn't bother.

As for just the housing Fel... what is the point? You can go just about anywhere in Fel and place a house so why add more housing to an area that is devoid of people anyway?

you cant go anywhere in fel and just place a house, maybe an 8 by 8 but not a big one, at least not on atlantic.

Personally, id buy a purely PVP expansion, but i was referring to just a regular expansion, new skills, new armor, stuff like that that also had new pvp areas / items / additions. And a reason to make a trammel person at least interested in them. Like i have the high seas expansion right now only to be able to use the new items. I took out a boat for the heck of it, shot some cannons, but thats about it.

 

[Thav12]

Well first off the only emotion there was the bit about time travel.

As for the stock holders of EA. It is quite clear you have never held stocks or you would know how the holders can and do/cant and dont influence the way the parent company works but not to the point you said. While they can change who runs things and make plain the wishes of more revinue from their investments in EA. I assure you the common stock holder cant say Id like to see UO get a classic shard. It dont work that way.

As for the player base buying UO .... I dont think you know what your asking for. Thats a big kettle of fish and I wont go there just to quell your idea.

If the players of the copycat shards (free) would return to UO and pay for the game they have stolen for years. UO might still be a very profitable game and get the deserved love it so badly needs and craves.

Babble sweety UO is not a Fluke as that word means a 1 time event. UO and WoW are not flukes. If that was the case then EVERY game is one. WoW had a great deal of creative people who saw how others worked in the market. There is Years between UO and Blizzard launches. It has viable titles under its belt that started out as box games and went on to online just as UO did. UO suffered from the EA purchase in ways WoW didnt have to go through.
Its great you like EVE.
Dont put UO in a sandbox without placeing it there too.

Just letting you know that, inside, I am laughing out loud. Forgive me for reaching a scope that seems unrealistically big for you. Now, as far as stock, buying the game etc... sorry, i will be more realistic next time i post something.... (Still chuckling inside though)

once you realize that not everyone playing this game is a complete ******, and may know more about the world than you do, that is when the game truly reaches improbable heights. Imagine who you could be playing with?

I am just delighted I can play with dedicated people such as yourself. Please continue to play the game. As long as there are people, like those in this thread, playing the game, I hope to be there as well. No matter what their funny/crazy opinions may be. It opens up a whole new level of life, something that ultimately is the real sandbox aspect of this game. I know now, based on your last reply, that you and I would otherwise never, ever, have met in real life and/or would have been in the same room to play a game together. Never.

 

[MalagAste]

you cant go anywhere in fel and just place a house, maybe an 8 by 8 but not a big one, at least not on atlantic.

Personally, id buy a purely PVP expansion, but i was referring to just a regular expansion, new skills, new armor, stuff like that that also had new pvp areas / items / additions. And a reason to make a trammel person at least interested in them. Like i have the high seas expansion right now only to be able to use the new items. I took out a boat for the heck of it, shot some cannons, but thats about it.

Atlantic is a heavily populated shard you'd be lucky to place in Tram even.....
so don't compare that shard to the vast majority.

And i could care less about Fel still.... infact if fel were deleted tomorrow or turned trammel.... I wouldn't shed a single tear.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

UO used to be a sandbox out in the middle of a playground. You could go to the sandbox, build sand castles, dig a tunnel, but someone could come along and smash your sand castle, or fill in your tunnel...you just never knew what was going to happen because the sandbox was in the playground, and anyone could come to the playground. Now, UO is a sandbox, but it's in a sterile room with an invisible force field separating people by intention at the door. It's no longer filled with sand...sand is dirty...now it is filled with a plastic micro resin that contains no germs, no bacteria, and no imperfections. The people that are chosen can play in the sandbox, as long as they don't spill any so called sand, and as long as they don't build anything besides what is pre-approved. They sit in their sandbox, and they are smug and proud because they are in a sandbox...instead of somewhere else. But what they fail to realize is that there is no sand, just a sterile plastic pile of tiny meaningless granules that can never adhere into anything beyond a pile. And outside the so called sandbox, there are jungle gyms, and theme parks, and swings, and slides. Some of them are more entertaining than the sandbox, for a short period of time. Some of them are extremely popular, but not to the sandbox denizens. They are smug, and they are proud, because they are in their sandbox...yet there hasn't been sand there in many years. They will stand up, and they will defend their so called sandbox, and tell others how it is their sandbox, and some will rant and shout about how the plastic granules are superior to sand, yet the granules will not adhere into anything besides a pile. Try as they might, they cannot build sand castles, they cannot dig tunnels, so instead, they hoarde the granules for themselves, hoping that one day someone will care that they have a larger pile of granules than everyone else. But the truth is, the granules eventually take the shape of their container...and will return to being flat...because they cannot adhere into anything.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

 

[Chardonnay]

I'm digg'in it!!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Nice! One can always count on Ahu to sum up a thread!!!

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

My French is very rusty...but..."we all enjoy dehydrated meat soup"?

 

[Fat Midnight]

My French is very rusty...but..."we all enjoy dehydrated meat soup"?

I would love to enjoy your dehydrated meat soup.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

 

[MrWilliams]

UO used to be a sandbox out in the middle of a playground. You could go to the sandbox, build sand castles, dig a tunnel, but someone could come along and smash your sand castle, or fill in your tunnel...you just never knew what was going to happen because the sandbox was in the playground, and anyone could come to the playground. Now, UO is a sandbox, but it's in a sterile room with an invisible force field separating people by intention at the door. It's no longer filled with sand...sand is dirty...now it is filled with a plastic micro resin that contains no germs, no bacteria, and no imperfections. The people that are chosen can play in the sandbox, as long as they don't spill any so called sand, and as long as they don't build anything besides what is pre-approved. They sit in their sandbox, and they are smug and proud because they are in a sandbox...instead of somewhere else. But what they fail to realize is that there is no sand, just a sterile plastic pile of tiny meaningless granules that can never adhere into anything beyond a pile. And outside the so called sandbox, there are jungle gyms, and theme parks, and swings, and slides. Some of them are more entertaining than the sandbox, for a short period of time. Some of them are extremely popular, but not to the sandbox denizens. They are smug, and they are proud, because they are in their sandbox...yet there hasn't been sand there in many years. They will stand up, and they will defend their so called sandbox, and tell others how it is their sandbox, and some will rant and shout about how the plastic granules are superior to sand, yet the granules will not adhere into anything besides a pile. Try as they might, they cannot build sand castles, they cannot dig tunnels, so instead, they hoarde the granules for themselves, hoping that one day someone will care that they have a larger pile of granules than everyone else. But the truth is, the granules eventually take the shape of their container...and will return to being flat...because they cannot adhere into anything.

Excellent point and very eloquently put!!

 

[Lady Storm]

Yes Morgana has summed it up nicely.
As for the statement I made... Your posting number is so very low and this subject has been beaten down so many times it leaves a bad taste in ones mouth. Plus of late as many will colaborate there has been many a "new" starting a thread to make trouble under another guise.

I feel the past is something we all know is the past and there fore cant be changed.

The Present we live now. The Dev are doing what they can with what they can, because of the past many are not willing to give them the leaway to make a difference.

The Future.... one can only hope and hang on.

Long ago an old guild mate of mine told me I had rose colored glasses on because I saw past the upcoming patch back then (the patch for T2A) He and many of the guild quit UO shortly after. They felt the Dev didnt listen to their pleas for change. He told me UO will die because of this change and I would best be served to join them and walk away before I saw all I loved about the game disapear. I've been in UO a long time, I kind of like my Rose Colored Glasses.........