NEWS [UO.Com] Return of Counselors

[The Zog historian]

Back in the day I was in the Volunteer Program as a Board Mod for the old UO.com forums. We did get compensated with game time and was scheduled 4 hours a week. We had about 20 or so mods back then. Considering working with a light schedule was not something to grumble about. I considered it a fair trade.

Now to make this all legal in today's business is a standard contract between the volunteer and Broadsword. Note that a 1099 does not need to be filed if the annual amount is less than $500 bucks. I run into this stuff daily as a internet/affiliate marketer.

All these years and I didn't know you modded there. I occasionally read the official forums but never posted, for a couple of reasons...

Contracts never prevent anyone from filing a frivolous suit, unfortunately. That's what was so stupid about the counselor lawsuit. The volunteers knew they weren't doing it for money, and most counselors up to the end were happy with what they did. It was a good thing that, like with so many others, get ruined by a few.

 

[Lefty]

All these years and I didn't know you modded there. I occasionally read the official forums but never posted, for a couple of reasons...

Contracts never prevent anyone from filing a frivolous suit, unfortunately. That's what was so stupid about the counselor lawsuit. The volunteers knew they weren't doing it for money, and most counselors up to the end were happy with what they did. It was a good thing that, like with so many others, get ruined by a few.

Yeah, my Mod name was Whisper.
The funnest thing we got to do was brainstorm the first line of Veteran Rewards. Everyone can thank me for the leather dye tubs .

Anyways you are right about good things getting ruined by a few. I still grumble about publish 46 which was one players vision to make UO more class like. I could rant for days over this lol.

Back on subject though, there is a legal way to do this, if there wasn't then there would be no Affiliate Marketers. For instance I advertise other peoples product with my own resources and I get payed a commission when that item or service sells.

 

[NuSair]

Your link is irrelevant. EA is not non-profit.

EMs are far from the same as counselors. EMs are specifically paid. Their contracts -- they are contract employees of EA -- specifies wages. Counselors' agreements specified no money.

Kindly know the difference before claiming they're the same, all right? Why don't you go look up some articles?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q="ultima online" "event moderator" contract employee

Actually, the link is quite relevant. It discusses the difference between a volunteer and an employee.

As for EMs, I am quite aware and familiar with them and their status.

Actually, you are the one who is incorrect. As I pointed out, it's very questionable whether EA would have been found in violation, since there was never money disbursed to counselors. Victories for "volunteers" under the FLSA reveal that the people were in fact getting paid, making them employees. Since UO counselors specifically signed up knowing there was no monetary compensation, their claim to damages (let alone treble) is specious at best. However, one more time, the intent behind most any class-action lawsuit is to get a settlement, not a judgment.

And if they had won, then the law was wrong. There have been many bad laws in U.S. jurisprudence alone, or well-intentioned laws badly interpreted, under which bad judgments were issued. There have been plenty of class-action cases that went the wrong way. Just because certain volunteers won FLSA suits against municipalities, when the "volunteers" knew they weren't doing it for pay, doesn't mean the volunteers were in the right.

No, I am not incorrect. It isn't questionable that EA would have been found in violation. It has nothing to do if money was distributed to anyone.

The point where EA went wrong is when they started using volunteers in the place of employees.
Remember the Volunteer Service Rule of Three – “True” volunteers are those who: (1) work toward public service, religious, or humanitarian objectives; (2) do not expect or receive compensation for services; and (3) do not displace any genuine employees.

And just like a child, you argue the point that IF they would have lost, then the law is wrong. Taking the stance of someone who knows they lost, knows they are wrong and refuse to admit it.

Your experiences with a few small groups is hardly comparable to the scale of what EA tried to do. Now you're clouding the issue. Whether or not EA was "right" to demand formal schedules and more hours is not the issue. It's whether EA (or Broadsword as it may be) will go through the same nonsense of getting sued by people who knew what they were getting into. Don't like the increased demands? Then don't show up. It's really quite simple.

SMALL? LMAO... you have no idea of the size of the volunteer judging in Magic: the Gathering... it easily dwarfs anything EA has done. Again talking about things which you have no idea.

And no, it isn't that simple.

Since you claim to be familiar with Scouting, what do you think would happen to a Scoutmaster who didn't show up to all the meetings, who appeared only when he felt like "volunteering," perhaps only at jamborees and other major events? Don't you suppose that if there are others waiting in the wings (and there likely would be) that he'd be dismissed in favor of someone who would put in the asked time?

It really depends. There are scoutmasters that only make it to a handful of meetings....if that. It really depends on the efforts of the rest of their staff and the parents and their ability to handle things. If the assistants couldn't cover what needed to get done, they would try to replace the individual in question. For reference, I was in scouting for 12 years myself and my son was in scouting for 3 years.

And the hours in fact are "asked." EA is in no position to "demand" any schedule, simply because volunteers are free to walk away. Are you not aware that when the original program was terminated, the demands of hours, schedules and the like were so arduous and unfair that the vast majority of counselors still hadn't quit? The unfortunate thing was that a few UO counselors who did walk away decided to try to get some money out of it, and they found shyster attorneys.

When your account is being put at risk....your main play account, threatened to be wiped... you cannot just 'walk away'.

I'll say this---- I am intimately aware of the current EM program and the past Counselor program. I can tell you from personal experience that they did in fact demand.

 

[Avenrose]

Okay why we still on the legality of this topic ? Yes it has the potential to sit in the Grey zone but until the its officially live we have no idea how the new system will work, for all we know they may compensate the voulenteers with in game stuff along with the free account, me personally I work long hours daily for my job, but luckily my work is done on a computer and I own my company, so I would be a Counselor again with no problem heck I spend hours on end doing nothing in game except farm shame time to time and help out friends and guild mates get back into the game anyway, being part of this just gives me a reason to keep my account going.

 

[Tina Small]

Here is Department of Labor Fact Sheet #17 discussing the parameters for unpaid internship programs for for-profit companies in the United States: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm .

I think this particular sentence pretty much sums up why some of us are concerned with the legality of this program: "On the other hand, if the interns are engaged in the operations of the employer or are performing productive work (for example, filing, performing other clerical work, or assisting customers), then the fact that they may be receiving some benefits in the form of a new skill or improved work habits will not exclude them from the FLSA’s minimum wage and overtime requirements because the employer benefits from the interns’ work."

I'm not sure how anyone could argue that the primary purpose of the Counselor program is anything other than "assisting customers." And who does that directly benefit? Broadsword, of course.

Until there is further clarification from Broadsword, I have serious doubts about whether this program is actually going to satisfy the FLSA requirements. For starters, Mesanna even said in her announcement that the Counselors "will be given a work account for this task." It's not a good sign that all the i's have been dotted and the t's have been crossed when she is throwing around terms like "work account" and "task." Unfortunately, seeing that kind of terminology makes it hard for me to believe Broadsword sees this as anything other than a program to get free labor out of kind-hearted players.

I know we all want UO to survive and thrive, but how is that going to happen if Broadsword enters into a program that likely could lead to them have problems down the road with regard to not paying compensation and not withholding and reporting appropriate taxes? I hope they will reconsider starting up this kind of a program.

 

[Tina Small]

And an article that discusses some California state law issues with for-profit organizations attempting to use "volunteers": http://www.fentonkeller.com/resourc.../april_2009_volunteering_in_the_workplace.htm . So this isn't just a U.S. federal law issue; it could very well be a U.S. state law issue as well.

And another interesting article: http://www.wardandsmith.com/blog/volunteers-of-america-the-other-flsa-classification-issue

Edited to add more links:
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/opinions/1998-11-12.pdf
http://bedrocksf.com/using-interns-and-volunteers-in-your-startup/
http://www.mofo.com/files/Uploads/Images/120522-Employment-Law-Commentary.pdf
http://www.workplacefairness.org/worktime
http://townhall.virginia.gov/l/GetFile.cfm?File=E:\townhall\docroot\GuidanceDocs\181\GDoc_DOLI_1759_v4.pdf
http://www.hot-guild.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13324
http://www.salon.com/2000/09/21/ultima_volunteers/
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/04/uo_lawsuit_sett.html

And one more:
http://www.dol.gov/whd/opinion/FLSA/2002/2002_10_07_9_FLSA.htm

 

[Lady Storm]

COUGH****
Ok lets settle this right now... I happen to agree with Petra as far as letting Broadsword handle this in their own manner and I do trust Mesanna in its handling. The lady does know how to keep a tight ship.

Now in reguards to the Early years of beign a Counselor for UO...
Originaly a player who volunteered their time to serve his or her fellow players was free to log in and out at their own time fraim...
This like Petra gave example of in her work was exactly how it was then for UO Counselors.
I will admit there were times when alot of them were on and times when none were..
Yes it was hap hazzard but it worked.
Also there was no compensation for this time given, the "free" account was added later. Along with UO swag.
EA took advantage of the players who offered to join and tried to make them conform to a guideline they set up and basicly signed them up for shifts..
Some was flexable, some not so..

Tina I hope your wrong. I want this back in game.
Zog sugar stop the fighting.. that was EA.
We have no idea how Broadsword is in its dealings.
Let's give them the benifit of the time and see shall we?
As for the bickering ... STOP.
I for one loved bring a counselor.
I worked that last day and was with the last player call when a GM showed up and said they will take over and for me to go back to base and log.
I didnt know what was happening.
Those GM's and other Counselors were my friends and we were a close knit family who cared what we did.
I put in hours more then EA asked for.
I didnt do it for a free account ether.
I did it because I loved UO and wanted to see to it that our fellow players had a good time in game as well.

Let me tell you something that perhaps you have over looked...
I for one WANT to be that little blue robed bare toes pixie who comes to the aid of a new player who is lost in our big world... or that older vet who just happened to get stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I for one have hope again for the game...
Thank you Broadsword..

 

[FrejaSP]

I hope Broadsword success getting the counselors back and without trouble with the law. It's very sad to see the way this thread went. If a counselor don't want to use the time for free to support the game they love, then they should quit the program and get a real job. Just my opinion.

 

[Speranza]

I hope Broadsword success getting the counselor and without trouble with the law. It's very sad to see the way this thread went. If a counselor don't want to use the time for free to support the game they love, then they should quit the program and get a real job. Just my opinion.

AMEN!

If they don't like it they should GTFO!

 

[MalagAste]

I hope Broadsword success getting the counselors back and without trouble with the law. It's very sad to see the way this thread went. If a counselor don't want to use the time for free to support the game they love, then they should quit the program and get a real job. Just my opinion.

Sadly as a few have mentioned their actually paid accounts were threatened and they felt they could not just "quit" without losing their beloved accounts... not just their job as a councilor. That is the single most frightening thing you can threaten a die hard UO player with...

I really honestly would LOVE for the councilors to return to the game .... I think it is a giant step in the right direction with helping new and returning players.

However..... I like most others would NEVER sign onboard for anything if I thought it would jeopardize my accounts.

 

[drewster513]

well i think its a great idea and im in for volunteering *finger's crossed*

 

[Widow Maker]

My most enjoyable time in UO was my smurf time. We trained each other, GMs, shard leads, etc. We got to be able to help players, advise and guide them, all for the price of an unexpirable account. My old first account had an expiration date of 2099 because of Origin's gratitude for my time. I wonder if it still does.

It was also my saddest time, when a couple bad eggs ruined it for every player in the game. This always was, and still can be, a very good thing for the game.

I would recommend a time limit for counselor employ, though. Then clean the ranks out and take on new people, giving good knowledgeable people a chance to stand up and give back to the game they have loved for so long.

 

[FrejaSP]

I did not feel the counselor account was mine. I had a char on it in a blue robe and with no backpack and no items or house. I was sad, I lost the job as counselor, when it was cancelled but the char it self did never mean as much to me as Freja and Tina Tink, my own chars/accounts

 

[Winter]

And Broadsword will have REAL lawyers, not you arm chair Google warriors. I've volunteered for many projects in the past and never encountered any issue, Stratics included.

I agree with you. How did so many players get to be labor law experts, and all just happen to play UO and forum spammers on Stratics?

I was also a Companion back in the day, and enjoyed that time very much. But I'm now thinking with all this stupid bickering happening even before any of the details are known, who the hell wants to put up with that and volunteer for thankless players?

Just give Broadsword a chance to get this right, and shut up with all the legal talk - YOU ARE NOT THE LEGAL EXPERTS! HA!

 

[The Zog historian]

Actually, the link is quite relevant. It discusses the difference between a volunteer and an employee.

As for EMs, I am quite aware and familiar with them and their status.

Your link is specifically about a non-profit organization. Therefore, it does not apply here

No, I am not incorrect. It isn't questionable that EA would have been found in violation. It has nothing to do if money was distributed to anyone.

"Questionable" means that it could have gone either way. You don't know that they'd have been found in violation. For once, a judge or jury might have returned a correct verdict.

The point where EA went wrong is when they started using volunteers in the place of employees.
Remember the Volunteer Service Rule of Three – “True” volunteers are those who: (1) work toward public service, religious, or humanitarian objectives; (2) do not expect or receive compensation for services; and (3) do not displace any genuine employees.

That's only the site's opinion about what a volunteer is, and for non-profits. It isn't in fact what the Act says.

For one, the Act and the Department of Labor do not require that people be classified as "employees" if they don't expect to receive compensation. But if someone expects compensation, then $10 a month for a free account would not have met minimum wage laws. The fact that the suit was over the FLSA, not over unpaid minimum wage, demonstrates rather ably that counselors knew they would not be actual employees.

Second, "humanitarian" sounds exactly why counselors volunteered, at least to me.

Third, that site's mention of "do not displace" does not appear anywhere in the Act. But even were that more than just the site's opinion, counselors did "not displace any genuine employees." Who was there prior to counselors? They didn't "displace" GMs.

And just like a child, you argue the point that IF they would have lost, then the law is wrong. Taking the stance of someone who knows they lost, knows they are wrong and refuse to admit it.

Gee, how nice of you to make a personal attack. Pfft, you're the one acting as you claim I am.

So would you have argued that Dred Scott was property, since it was decided fairly under the law? That forced segregation was legal because the Plessy decision validated it? You don't realize the implications of what you're saying. If the FLSA or any other law has a loophole allowing a bad decision, then the law is wrong. Or are you one of those "but it's the law" types?

SMALL? LMAO... you have no idea of the size of the volunteer judging in Magic: the Gathering... it easily dwarfs anything EA has done. Again talking about things which you have no idea.

And no, it isn't that simple.

Actually, it is that simple (how nice you resort to pithy denial without offering any reasoning), and whatever the size, I doubt you were judging over a hundred thousand players on a regular basis. That's how many counselors were supporting.

It really depends. There are scoutmasters that only make it to a handful of meetings....if that. It really depends on the efforts of the rest of their staff and the parents and their ability to handle things. If the assistants couldn't cover what needed to get done, they would try to replace the individual in question. For reference, I was in scouting for 12 years myself and my son was in scouting for 3 years.

Such absentee leaders need to be removed in favor of those who will actually do the job. If it falls to other staff and parents, then of what use is a Scoutmaster? For reference, my old troop went downhill when the guy didn't show up to keep things in line, and the SPL and PLs didn't have enough maturity. My best friend, on the other hand, was an excellent Scoutmaster.

When your account is being put at risk....your main play account, threatened to be wiped... you cannot just 'walk away'.

I'll say this---- I am intimately aware of the current EM program and the past Counselor program. I can tell you from personal experience that they did in fact demand.

And just what was the threat over? EA's retaliation over a counselor's threats that he isn't getting paid enough? You imply a lot but your details are lacking.

 

[The Zog historian]

I think this particular sentence pretty much sums up why some of us are concerned with the legality of this program: "On the other hand, if the interns are engaged in the operations of the employer or are performing productive work (for example, filing, performing other clerical work, or assisting customers), then the fact that they may be receiving some benefits in the form of a new skill or improved work habits will not exclude them from the FLSA’s minimum wage and overtime requirements because the employer benefits from the interns’ work."

I interned during one college summer, which was as much a "volunteer" position as anything. I never had a problem with being unpaid for several weeks, and frankly, to complain later (under the FLSA or any other labor guidelines) would have been beneath contempt. I accepted being unpaid for four reasons: to fulfill a degree requirement, to see if it's what I wanted to do, to see if the company might be impressed enough to make me an offer upon graduation, and to list that bit of experience on my resume in case I worked somewhere else. As it turned out, they offered me part-time work during my senior year, transitioning to full-time after I graduated. Luckily my internship wasn't just being the kid to make photocopies and coffee, so later on when I had my own interns, I treated them with the same respect.

Now here's a key point about why my internship was not actual employment: I didn't have to do any SEC filings, not until I became a part-time employee. When I had interns, it was at a different company that gave them not insignificant stipends, which made them real employees, and we had to file certain paperwork for them.

And I'll restate that I'm happy counselors are returning, and I would like to see it work again. But I fear what bad elements can do all over again.

 

[The Zog historian]

I agree with you. How did so many players get to be labor law experts, and all just happen to play UO and forum spammers on Stratics?

I was also a Companion back in the day, and enjoyed that time very much. But I'm now thinking with all this stupid bickering happening even before any of the details are known, who the hell wants to put up with that and volunteer for thankless players?

Just give Broadsword a chance to get this right, and shut up with all the legal talk - YOU ARE NOT THE LEGAL EXPERTS! HA!

Let me just say it's something I've more than had to deal with, enough that a close friend called me today for advice on her contractor status. Whenever a bunch of summer interns came in, I had to figure out how best to keep the next SEC auditors happy with how we applied federal laws and regulations, with all their circular definitions and conflicts. So, um...HA?

Like I've said, some aren't considering the ramifications of what they're saying. They seem to want counselors, but at the same time they say EA broke the law before. They can't have it both ways. I, for one, say that EA/Broadsword should be able to get volunteer counselors, who know full well what they're getting into.

 

[Lady CaT]

This all kinda makes me laugh. Just how many new players are there? I sure didn't see a lot on the slower shards, hell didn't even see a lot of veterans. Yes there are a few more new players on busier shards. And OK, suppose a returning veteran or a real honest young person actually needs help for something not requiring a GM? Why do you need a counselor program? Because no one is answering in 'Help or General Chat'? So......you are creating a volunteer program from people who aren't helping others to start? Or is it a blue robe suddenly makes people helpful? Many players have already organized extensive in game help on shards without the need for a blue robe or some special powers. Many of us already answer people's questions in help or general chat. I'm not sure I understand the sudden overwhelming need for counselor volunteers? Even if there is some odd anticipation of a swell in the players ranks, wouldn't there be also more people listening in general and help chat to assist? *shrugs* I guess its the pretty robe thing or some sort of odd veteran retention incentive.

 

[Winter]

Let me just say it's something I've more than had to deal with, enough that a close friend called me today for advice on her contractor status. Whenever a bunch of summer interns came in, I had to figure out how best to keep the next SEC auditors happy with how we applied federal laws and regulations, with all their circular definitions and conflicts. So, um...HA?..

That's just a bunch of nonsense and horse-hockey. I deal with tons of federal rules and regulations, from labeling laws, FDA food and drug regulations, EPA Clean Water Act and environmental regs, day in and day out. That does not make me, or you, a legal lawyer expert in labor law. All this presumption of legal knowledge is just nonsense. Arguing about it is useless and not helpful.

I agree that Broadsword should be given leeway and support until they are proven wrong. It sure looks to me like they are putting forth a lot of effort to improve this game, and I appreciate that.

 

[Jerec KTM]

And Broadsword will have REAL lawyers, not you arm chair Google warriors.

Assumption Alert! Assumption Alert! *turns off the klaxon*

We know very little about Broadsword other than the basics they have given us. EA certainly had the REAL (or in drug parlance REAL REALS) lawyers, Broadsword in a fraction of a fraction of the size, so we do not know them having REAL lawyers to be true.

 

[kelmo]

The National Football League has no issues claiming to be a non profit organization. Just saying...

Let us give Broadsword a chance. If some of you folks that were councilors and felt your volunteer status was abused, well do not volunteer this time. I am pretty sure bad things happened on both sides. That was a long time ago. Let us move forward with a positive attitude.

 

[Picus at the office]

And one wonders why the game is dusty....GL broadsword.

 

[Lady Storm]

Personally with reguards to the news I am thrilled. I would love to see it with a tad more powers. To be able to help a bit more then just lip service. Like unsticking a box or finding a hidden box that dropped out of sight ...or getting that silly bag that fell under the house!
You also forget one other part of the Counsleor... a vast information hub of game know how.
I still have my notebook of sheet apon sheet I made of all the game knowlage up to date of that time... Much is still useable but there are a great deal of things new... Dont forget those of you who understand japaneese and can interact with players on the asian servers are needed very much. Dont forget to let Mesanna know if you speak, read and can comunicate in game in a foriegn language other then english when you apply. As for limiting the stay of a Counselor... I dont think a time limit is nessassary. The turnover rate even for EMs which have a vast more powerfull impack on the game is quite short.

Oh a quick note if any plan to apply...
Patience to listen to the caller on what ever issue they are in need of help with, a good ear for picking up the fine details so you can best serve them, and the willingness to let a angry player sound off and still keep your cool when its most needed to help them.. is very important.

 

[Taylor]

I think they'll find a way . . .

 

[Speranza]

I think they'll find a way . . .

Nature always.. uh.. uh.. finds a way (DINOSAUR ATTACK!)

 

[The Zog historian]

This all kinda makes me laugh. Just how many new players are there? I sure didn't see a lot on the slower shards, hell didn't even see a lot of veterans. Yes there are a few more new players on busier shards. And OK, suppose a returning veteran or a real honest young person actually needs help for something not requiring a GM? Why do you need a counselor program? Because no one is answering in 'Help or General Chat'? So......you are creating a volunteer program from people who aren't helping others to start? Or is it a blue robe suddenly makes people helpful? Many players have already organized extensive in game help on shards without the need for a blue robe or some special powers. Many of us already answer people's questions in help or general chat. I'm not sure I understand the sudden overwhelming need for counselor volunteers? Even if there is some odd anticipation of a swell in the players ranks, wouldn't there be also more people listening in general and help chat to assist? *shrugs* I guess its the pretty robe thing or some sort of odd veteran retention incentive.

I know two in the last couple of months who are sticking around, and another who disappeared after I made a suit for him. But new players are just part of it. There might be old-time players looking to train a skill for the first time, and someone returning after more than five years (or 14) might as well be new.

There are a lot more resources than years ago, but any avenue of help is welcome, as far as I'm concerned. Not everyone knows about Stratics, and not everyone might bother to post here. Others might get on general chat, where I try to be helpful when I see something, but they might get off quickly from all the noise. So why not let it be tried again? If counselors aren't needed, then we'll see quickly when there's nothing for them to do. It will cost hardly anything.

 

[The Zog historian]

That's just a bunch of nonsense and horse-hockey. I deal with tons of federal rules and regulations, from labeling laws, FDA food and drug regulations, EPA Clean Water Act and environmental regs, day in and day out. That does not make me, or you, a legal lawyer expert in labor law. All this presumption of legal knowledge is just nonsense. Arguing about it is useless and not helpful.

I agree that Broadsword should be given leeway and support until they are proven wrong. It sure looks to me like they are putting forth a lot of effort to improve this game, and I appreciate that.

Well, good for you. But you yourself, from what you posted, haven't needed to know labor law. I have, as a matter of ensuring other things. You can call it "nonsense and horse-hockey" all you'd like, but you made a broad assertion, which happens to be untrue about me. That notwithstanding, what I have stated is, in fact, correct. And just because someone is a "lawyer" or so-called "expert" doesn't necessarily make the person correct, either. I've dealt with too many lawyers who are about bluffing and procedure, not facts and logic. One immigration lawyer was recommended but didn't know what he was talking about, and I wound up doing forms myself.

And so that you have no misunderstanding, I too would like to see this get off the ground.

 

[kelmo]

many lawyers know they are incorrect... yet they do it anyway.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Personally with reguards to the news I am thrilled. I would love to see it with a tad more powers. To be able to help a bit more then just lip service. Like unsticking a box or finding a hidden box that dropped out of sight ...or getting that silly bag that fell under the house!
You also forget one other part of the Counsleor... a vast information hub of game know how.
I still have my notebook of sheet apon sheet I made of all the game knowlage up to date of that time... Much is still useable but there are a great deal of things new... Dont forget those of you who understand japaneese and can interact with players on the asian servers are needed very much. Dont forget to let Mesanna know if you speak, read and can comunicate in game in a foriegn language other then english when you apply. As for limiting the stay of a Counselor... I dont think a time limit is nessassary. The turnover rate even for EMs which have a vast more powerfull impack on the game is quite short.

Oh a quick note if any plan to apply...
Patience to listen to the caller on what ever issue they are in need of help with, a good ear for picking up the fine details so you can best serve them, and the willingness to let a angry player sound off and still keep your cool when its most needed to help them.. is very important.

For along time I had a box fall under my castle with tokuno items in it wasn't to worried about it. Something happened between the time it fell under the house n last november when I was working on redecoing my castle. I was able to raise the box up into my castle. Might of been because of the patch for us decorating the court yards no idea. Just threw this out here to let you and others know.

 

[RockoNV]

Ugh...I don't ever recall counselors doing any of what you seem to be concerned about...

Well...............let's just say that OSI put "gloves" on counselors for a reason.

 

[RockoNV]

I think the first words out of a Counselor's mouth should be: "Welcome to UO new friend, are you aware of Stratics?" Then once that is done, proceed to assist in whatever way you are able...
Just sayin...

That is exactly what I did when answering a call, just before /next

 

[Lexfixr]

isn't time for all the people who want to find fault or historical problems to chill Lady Storm's post is very thoughtful and well spoken I was also a volunteer back at the time and loved the interaction we made a difference Isnt it time you showed Bonnie some respect she knows what she is doing she cares deeply for all of us in the game, she knows the history of the volunteer program its faults and issues I think its about time we stopped pancakes and let her go down this path, never know she might pull it off.

 

[kelmo]

This is not the UO of 15 years ago.

 

[Apetul]

This is not the UO of 15 years ago.

Screenshots from UO of 15 years ago looks VERY VERY similar to screenshots of UO today.

 

[Lady Storm]

Ah but the people have changed that drive those avatars you see ...
We all have changed.
Kelmo is quite right.
We have lost our inocence of the web and its wonders

 

[Viper09]

Screenshots from UO of 15 years ago looks VERY VERY similar to screenshots of UO today.

There is more to a game than its appearance.

 

[Zosimus]

Wow! This thread was an eye opener. I didnt know Stratics had so many lawyers

It's a positive step forward and at least Broadsword is trying.

Does it mean it will bring new players by the millions running to UO? Hardly but it will help with any new players that do try UO.

No need to bicker about "what ifs" when none of us know what the terms will be.

I approve of this message and in no way or form am I a lawyer.

 

[Tina Small]

Wow! This thread was an eye opener. I didnt know Stratics had so many lawyers

It's a positive step forward and at least Broadsword is trying.

Does it mean it will bring new players by the millions running to UO? Hardly but it will help with any new players that do try UO.

No need to bicker about "what ifs" when none of us know what the terms will be.

I approve of this message and in no way or form am I a lawyer.

I'm sick and tired of reading posts like this which disparage people, whether or not they are layers, for trying to provide helpful information. The potential organizational liability for Broadsword and possibly even personal liability for people like Mesanna if there is some kind of an FLSA violation is significant and nothing to be scoffed at.

But no, instead of people here having the maturity to admit that perhaps there could be a problem, what we see is people making posts that almost seem to imply that we all should just maybe look the other way and let laws be broken and careers ruined because some are afraid that even a breath of negativity might ruffle someone's feathers or, heaven forbid, keep some players from having an opportunity to receive some virtual goods or miss out on an opportunity to lord themselves over some other players.

All you people who act like I and other people who are pointing out that there could be problems are the villains really need to grow up and open your eyes to reality. The DOL and labor law experts put out a ton of information for laymen to read just to keep themselves out of trouble and to make sure that employees' rights are protected. You don't need a law degree or to have passed a bar exam to go read that information and yes, to pass it along to someone else, especially if you think it might help keep them from getting themselves into real trouble.

Shame on you people who think it's more important to "protect" Mesanna from reading anything negative, for whatever reasons you might have. Wake up! All you're doing in the long run is being a false friend. She's an adult and you do her no favors by showering her with false praise and screeching at people who, although they may never be effusive in their praise, still don't like to see ANYONE make a major blunder like this one could be.

Edited to add: And if you still don't get what the hullabaloo is about because you're too lazy to go read one of the articles I linked to, I'll give you the gist of the problem right here. Under federal law in the United States and under the law of many states in the United States, you cannot "volunteer" to work for free for a for-profit company. It does not matter if you want to do it willingly and say you'll sign away your right to compensation. The law flat out doesn't allow it. There is likely no way that Broadsword Online Games would EVER qualify to call itself a nonprofit organization, so it's simply ridiculous to think that people "volunteering" their time to do an employee's job for Broadsword is going to fly. Read the articles if you haven't yet. And stop and think. Do you really, really want Broadsword to try to do this and get nailed for it when it doesn't work? Do you really want Mesanna to have to pay out of her own pocket if this is attempted? All so you can wear a little blue robe on your computer screen? Seriously? This is that important to you?

Read the articles. You don't need a law degree to understand them.

 

[Winter]

I'm sick and tired of reading posts like this which disparage people, whether or not they are layers, for trying to provide helpful information. The potential organizational liability for Broadsword and possibly even personal liability for people like Mesanna if there is some kind of an FLSA violation is significant and nothing to be scoffed at.... BLAH BLAH BLAH

Well, maybe the rest of us are sick and tired of the backseat-internet-lawyers, who really don't have the credentials to make these opinions. I'm no looking the other way or trying to protect Mesanna, and I did read all those articles and I was around during that time. I ran a small business for years, and I had to deal with labor laws and all the other legal crap, but I hired someone (aka "expert") to do that.... NOT go to some internet forum for advice, where anyone can claim any expertise and provide any advice.

If you don't think Mesanna and the rest of the team are aware of the past problems, them you must think them very stupid. It is and will be Broadsword's sole responsibility to get this right. And if Broadsword and team are coming to Stratics for legal advice on this, then they really are stupid.

 

[a slave girl]

I should stay out of this but this really makes me uncomfortable.

We don't have many NEW players so why? I suppose if Broadsword is planning a huge marketing campaign for UO to get new players then okay, get the 'volunteers' ready to help them.

The word "volunteer" is an issue for me. Just another way for EA not to invest any more cash into a dying game is what I see when I see that word.

I hope these 'volunteers' work account can not own a house, since if I recall there were some posts here in the past where former counselors revealed they still owned their work accounts. This may explain why we have 2 line named houses still in the game.

I don't know what powers the old seers/counselors had but I sometimes suspect those who still own their old seer accounts are those who dupe/script with impunity.

Lastly when my 17 year old daughter still played, she would have this GM show up and just chat with her, without being called. I forget his name, but 'volunteer' players work accounts should have severely limited abilities. I don't want them in my houses or near me, thanks.

I sure hope they can't see our IP addresses or account names.

 

[Tina Small]

Well, maybe the rest of us are sick and tired of the backseat-internet-lawyers, who really don't have the credentials to make these opinions. I'm no looking the other way or trying to protect Mesanna, and I did read all those articles and I was around during that time. I ran a small business for years, and I had to deal with labor laws and all the other legal crap, but I hired someone (aka "expert") to do that.... NOT go to some internet forum for advice, where anyone can claim any expertise and provide any advice.

If you don't think Mesanna and the rest of the team are aware of the past problems, them you must think them very stupid. It is and will be Broadsword's sole responsibility to get this right. And if Broadsword and team are coming to Stratics for legal advice on this, then they really are stupid.

What I think is that as usual we got a very brief announcement that may have made poor or perhaps even incorrect use of certain terms and phrases, such as "reinstate the Counselor Program," "volunteer," "work account," and "task."

The negative reactions should have been anticipated and probably could have been avoided if someone had taken the time to explain what's different this time around, instead of just saying, "We are making a few alterations to make the program work with all the changes...."

But no, it's three days after the announcement came out and not one word of clarification has been provided.

 

[Taylor]

They'll figure it out. And there will be marketing (more than you've seen in many years...combined).

 

[Bazer]

It'd really make me happy personally if Broadsword would put a Physical copy of UO back on the shelves of stores to sell

 

[The Zog historian]

Well, maybe the rest of us are sick and tired of the backseat-internet-lawyers, who really don't have the credentials to make these opinions. I'm no looking the other way or trying to protect Mesanna, and I did read all those articles and I was around during that time. I ran a small business for years, and I had to deal with labor laws and all the other legal crap, but I hired someone (aka "expert") to do that.... NOT go to some internet forum for advice, where anyone can claim any expertise and provide any advice.

If you don't think Mesanna and the rest of the team are aware of the past problems, them you must think them very stupid. It is and will be Broadsword's sole responsibility to get this right. And if Broadsword and team are coming to Stratics for legal advice on this, then they really are stupid.

If you think that what I've provided is from the perspective of a "backseat-internet-lawyer," then feel free to show where I'm wrong.

I've worked with a lot of good lawyers, and with a lot of bad lawyers. Actions evince expertise, not the fact that someone finished at some law school. What if someone chimed in here, claiming to have a J.D. and doing labor law? It's unverifiable, but the information itself can still be judged as right or wrong. And you don't know if someone with a law degree finished at the bottom of his class at a low-tier school. Do you know why so many class-action attorneys gravitated to that line of work? It's because they don't know much about real law, nor do they need to, because their job is simply to make it too costly to keep up a defense, pushing a company to settle. Remember that every slimeball lawyer you've heard of, whether shaking down a company with frivolous lawsuits or defending mobsters he knows are guilty, was somehow able to pass a state bar's "character and fitness" evaluation.

 

[Speranza]

It'd really make me happy personally if Broadsword would put a Physical copy of UO back on the shelves of stores to sell

I disagree, box sales are expensive. It needs to be on Steam and similar places (AND NOT EXCLUSIVE TO ORIGIN YOU HEAR ME MESSANA NOT. ORIGIN. EXCLUSIVE. FOR. THE. LOVE. OF. THE. VIRTUES.)

 

[Speranza]

then feel free to show where I'm wrong.

I dont' think anyone cares if you are right or wrong, it just doesn't matter because none of us have a dog in this race.

 

[Lord Nabin]

I say again

Well Done to Broadsword and the UO team.

I am confident that they will establish a very good set up to this, have all their dots in a row properly, and have thought through the legal aspects.

This is not some mom and pop establishment that does not have the senior corporate leadership in place to pull something like this off.

The Legal aspects of this are not our concern in any shape or form.

It is really very simple.

If you are concerned do not sign up for the program. (No need for the Chicken Little Syndrome)

If you are excited and looking forward to the program send in your information.

 

[The Zog historian]

Edited to add: And if you still don't get what the hullabaloo is about because you're too lazy to go read one of the articles I linked to, I'll give you the gist of the problem right here. Under federal law in the United States and under the law of many states in the United States, you cannot "volunteer" to work for free for a for-profit company. It does not matter if you want to do it willingly and say you'll sign away your right to compensation. The law flat out doesn't allow it. There is likely no way that Broadsword Online Games would EVER qualify to call itself a nonprofit organization, so it's simply ridiculous to think that people "volunteering" their time to do an employee's job for Broadsword is going to fly. Read the articles if you haven't yet. And stop and think. Do you really, really want Broadsword to try to do this and get nailed for it when it doesn't work? Do you really want Mesanna to have to pay out of her own pocket if this is attempted? All so you can wear a little blue robe on your computer screen? Seriously? This is that important to you?

There are things like the unpaid internships I and many others have had, whose main criterium with the Department of Labor is that the intern knows it's an unpaid internship. So the intent with the FLSA and other federal laws/regulations was never to say no for-profit can ever get volunteer help, and I ask, if an investment bank can get unpaid interns, why shouldn't EA or someone else be able to get volunteer help? Lots of us love the game and, as readily seen on UHall, are willing to help others for no compensation. If the person signs an understanding that he/she knows it's unpaid, then that's it, and the person signed away his right to complain. Now if EA threatens accounts, that's something else, but no one's given real details that I saw.

 

[The Zog historian]

I dont' think anyone cares if you are right or wrong, it just doesn't matter because none of us have a dog in this race.

Lots of us do, actually: those who want to sign up, and others who want to see it succeed.

 

[Riyana]

There are valid concerns and points being made on both sides here. I am cautiously optimistic, but I can see it going bad pretty easily. We all can since that's exactly what happened last time.

Personally I am of the opinion that if you are performing a task at the behest of a for-profit company in an official capacity that benefits that company's bottom line, then you should be paid or compensated in some way for it. The idea of volunteering for a for-profit venture is absurd to me. Saying "don't sign up if you don't like it" misses the point. Exploitation is wrong and I hope that Broadsword treads carefully and wisely here.