Ultima VIII: Pagan - Introduction and First Execution.

[WarderDragon]

I found this intriguing.

The Darker and Edgier Ultima Title.

YouTube - Ultima VIII: Pagan - Introduction and First Execution

 

[Hildebrand]

Brings back memories.
Although Pagan totally was nothing like the old Ultimas (new land, new spells, new reagents) it was fun.
It was a buggy game, but when I installed the patch, it functioned much better.

 

[Kas Althume]

Aye, Pagan was way too much of a jump&run game. I hated the sequences where you had to jump across moving plattform.

 

[Trebr Drab]

The intro shows that the Guardian is after Earth as well as Sosaria.

 

[WildWobble]

Pagan was a good time all the old Ultima's were a lot of fun i used to love 7and 7 part 2 serpent isle for a kick vibrate spell on mages was so much fun could shake out an infinite death bold off the necromancer... hehe Was fun
I recall pagan had some very cool explosions and yes lots of run jump but it got easy after a little practice

 

[Viquire]

All the remakes, reimaginings of these games in progress intrigue me greatly. I have VII on the comp now, been playing through it a bit, but have not gone far.

Really nice to be able to kick around with an old friend though.

 

[Hildebrand]

Aye, Pagan was way too much of a jump&run game. I hated the sequences where you had to jump across moving plattform.

Jumping was very complicated at first launch, but with the patch, we were then able to just point at a platform, click, and then you got there. Much less frustrating.

 

[Woodsman]

One thing that's always bugged me - the expansion was pretty much finished from what I remember. I had hoped that EA would have released it at some point. I remember it only needing QA or something. They even had packaging designed for it, I think one or two boxes turned up on eBay. It was actually ironic that it was all but finished since VIII was rushed out a little too early.

 

[Lord Tonberry]

Yeah, EA rushed this game out waaaay too soon. The story of Pagan is actually very long, interesting, and sad, but is never really much discussed during gameplay. This really could have been a great game (it's still good, imho, but not great).

As a side note, does anyone ever think that the Guardian stood a chance to take over Earth? I personally don't.
The ether flows differently on earth than it does in other worlds such as Britannia and Pagan, meaning magic on Earth is extremely weak.
There's also no blackrock here, so no portals or black gates.
OK, this Ultima nerd is done, hehe.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Yeah, EA rushed this game out waaaay too soon. The story of Pagan is actually very long, interesting, and sad, but is never really much discussed during gameplay. This really could have been a great game (it's still good, imho, but not great).

As a side note, does anyone ever think that the Guardian stood a chance to take over Earth? I personally don't.
The ether flows differently on earth than it does in other worlds such as Britannia and Pagan, meaning magic on Earth is extremely weak.
There's also no blackrock here, so no portals or black gates.
OK, this Ultima nerd is done, hehe.

Did the Guardian attempt to take over or attack Earth? I never finished the game, I've never been much of a gamer outside of D+D and when MMORPGs came out (in particular, this one).

 

[Lord Tonberry]

Did the Guardian attempt to take over or attack Earth? I never finished the game, I've never been much of a gamer outside of D+D and when MMORPGs came out (in particular, this one).

No, it was never mentioned, written, or implied that the Guardian even attepmted to enter Earth. Only his verbal threats to the Avatar were as close as he came.

I think that was the Guardian's ultimate power - to corrupt, torture, or taunt with people's minds.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Did the Guardian attempt to take over or attack Earth? I never finished the game, I've never been much of a gamer outside of D+D and when MMORPGs came out (in particular, this one).

No, it was never mentioned, written, or implied that the Guardian even attepmted to enter Earth. Only his verbal threats to the Avatar were as close as he came.

I think that was the Guardian's ultimate power - to corrupt, torture, or taunt with people's minds.

Yet Minax succeeded in destroying Earth, in it's year 2111.

There's several interesting things here. Let me quote the Ultima Wikia here to start....

The Player, again as the Stranger, doesn't have the task to save Sosaria, but instead Earth itself from the Enchantress Minax. Being the lover and apprentice of Mondain, she is quite angry over his death by the Stranger's hand, and swears revenge. Manipulating the timeline to this end, she let Earth die in an atomic holocaust in 2111 - all life on Earth perished in the Aftermath.

The Stranger, having escaped from the changes in the timeline at the last moment, has to decypher the mystery of the Time Doors, which enable time travel, to reach Minax and prevent these horrible events from ever happening. Gathering the only weapon that can kill Minax, the Quicksword Enilno, and wearing the protection of the Force Field Ring, the Stranger travels back to the Time of Legends and confronts Minax in her castle to kill her. With her death, the timeline returns to normal, with no one remembering the horrible events that occurred in the changed timeline - all except the Stranger.​

So Earth has always been in play, more than just as the home world of the Stranger/Avatar, British, and a few others.

The Time of Legends is a very strange thing. It's a place, a land, where Mondain's castle stood (and is seen in the intro movie), as well as Minax's castle. It's also been said that the Time Lord can freely go there. Nothing I know of has ever been learned on how Mondain got there, or anything else. It's a place from where both Sosaria (and all it's shard versions, assuming Minax still lives there), and Earth can be traveled. It's been called "Outside of Time). All told, it's like a myth that exists, but outside of reality. Much like the Land of Oz (which we know Garriott used for some inspiration).

The Qicksword Enilno, it's been noted that spelled backwards is "Online". And U2 came out in a time when online gaming was just getting started. No surprises there, but a point of interest. This reference to online gaming comes out in an Ultima game that includes not only a hero (the player) from Earth, but with Earth itself being brought into the game. I think it's clear that Garriott was looking to the future, to UO, as he made everything from U2 on.

 

[WarderDragon]

Did the Guardian attempt to take over or attack Earth?

It was a matter of time.

Those familiar with Warcraft might compare the Guardian to Sageras. A Satanic Figure on a Cosmic Scale. An Eldiritch Abomination. And he intended to subjugate all Creation. Britannia. Earth. Morgaelin.

There was alot more Cosmic Horror and Science Fiction than the unwashed masses would care to admit.

The Qicksword Enilno, it's been noted that spelled backwards is "Online". And U2 came out in a time when online gaming was just getting started. No surprises there, but a point of interest. This reference to online gaming comes out in an Ultima game that includes not only a hero (the player) from Earth, but with Earth itself being brought into the game. I think it's clear that Garriott was looking to the future, to UO, as he made everything from U2 on.

You mean this?

Multi-player Ultima was a cancelled, unnamed project that was being worked on by Richard Garriott and Origin Systems during 1987 and 1988. It was scheduled to be released on the summer of 1988. It was Origin's first attempt at a remote multiplayer game.

By July 1987, James Van Artsdalen (who was in charge at the time of porting the games to the IBM-PC and the Macintosh), was working on a program to allow for multiple players to work in the same game over modem connections, or other forms of networking. The game would be playable as a standalone game, but up to eight to sixteen players could join the same game.

By April 1988, the project had progressed further, though it still was in its formative stage. The game would be more of a "conquest" game, without much of a plot, more alike to a strategy game. Each player would be a feudal lord trying to rule their subjects through oppression or benevolence, and to control as much territory as possible.​

 

[Trebr Drab]

Did the Guardian attempt to take over or attack Earth?

It was a matter of time.

Those familiar with Warcraft might compare the Guardian to Sageras. A Satanic Figure on a Cosmic Scale. An Eldiritch Abomination. And he intended to subjugate all Creation. Britannia. Earth. Morgaelin.

There was alot more Cosmic Horror and Science Fiction than the unwashed masses would care to admit.

The Qicksword Enilno, it's been noted that spelled backwards is "Online". And U2 came out in a time when online gaming was just getting started. No surprises there, but a point of interest. This reference to online gaming comes out in an Ultima game that includes not only a hero (the player) from Earth, but with Earth itself being brought into the game. I think it's clear that Garriott was looking to the future, to UO, as he made everything from U2 on.

You mean this?

Multi-player Ultima was a cancelled, unnamed project that was being worked on by Richard Garriott and Origin Systems during 1987 and 1988. It was scheduled to be released on the summer of 1988. It was Origin's first attempt at a remote multiplayer game.

By July 1987, James Van Artsdalen (who was in charge at the time of porting the games to the IBM-PC and the Macintosh), was working on a program to allow for multiple players to work in the same game over modem connections, or other forms of networking. The game would be playable as a standalone game, but up to eight to sixteen players could join the same game.

By April 1988, the project had progressed further, though it still was in its formative stage. The game would be more of a "conquest" game, without much of a plot, more alike to a strategy game. Each player would be a feudal lord trying to rule their subjects through oppression or benevolence, and to control as much territory as possible.​

Heh, I had a funny feeling that someone would bring that up.

Yes, in a way. And yes I know it was quite different than what UO is. But you have to understand business, and how things work.

See, visionaries, and Garriott certainly is one, are not made on their visions alone. There are other foactors. One of those is a great deal of luck, where things "fall into place". Garriott would not have gotten the funding to start UO as it is. It was just too far ahead of it's time. He got the funding for this other type of online strategy game. At that time, it was just another stepping stone towards the vision he had.

But he wasn't alone in that vision. Just as Edison and Bell weren't alone in theirs. And then something happened. People became aware of the possibilities of an MMORPG. Several different things happened. One was the early entries into it with small scale efforts. Another was a showing of a working simulation somewhere, and this got everyone excited about it and into production. UO wasn't alone. EQ was working on their product before UO was released. I think some others tried and failed to actually get into production.

But what I'm getting at is that Garriott was following the stepping stones when all of a sudden, everything fell into place for him. So he was "THE" visionary, because he had more luck than others. And more smarts. Ever wonder why UO was 2D while EQ was working on a 3D game? Because Garriott knew the value of getting out there first. Had he not, UO could not have been nearly as "worldly", and those of us who want Sandbox games would not be talking because no one would ever have been able to in the old 3D, nor would anyone have done it yet. Not like UO did.

 

[Crysta]

No, it was never mentioned, written, or implied that the Guardian even attepmted to enter Earth. Only his verbal threats to the Avatar were as close as he came.

I think that was the Guardian's ultimate power - to corrupt, torture, or taunt with people's minds.

Actually, if you think about it.. its not that he never attempted to or never did.. its more like he never made it to that step in his plans. He was systematically working his way through the various planes of existence within a specific axis, as can be evidenced in Pagan and Labrynth of Worlds. It truly seems the only time he ever hit a speed-bump in his plans at all was Britannia, and seeing how much force he was aiming at it at once, it could be said that it was the world he was "saving for last" as the final step before the pentultimate challenge of Earth. Sosaria seems to be the strongest world in the group magically (which would make sense as a last stop given his plans for the world in the earlier versions of the Ultima 9 plot), and Earth would certainly be the world with the hardest spirit to break (at least given the kind of characters that came from there in the Ultima universe), making it the victory at the end worth relishing, especially with so strong a foe as the paragon of virtue dwelling in it.

 

[Trebr Drab]

No, it was never mentioned, written, or implied that the Guardian even attepmted to enter Earth. Only his verbal threats to the Avatar were as close as he came.

I think that was the Guardian's ultimate power - to corrupt, torture, or taunt with people's minds.

Actually, if you think about it.. its not that he never attempted to or never did.. its more like he never made it to that step in his plans. He was systematically working his way through the various planes of existence within a specific axis, as can be evidenced in Pagan and Labrynth of Worlds. It truly seems the only time he ever hit a speed-bump in his plans at all was Britannia, and seeing how much force he was aiming at it at once, it could be said that it was the world he was "saving for last" as the final step before the pentultimate challenge of Earth. Sosaria seems to be the strongest world in the group magically (which would make sense as a last stop given his plans for the world in the earlier versions of the Ultima 9 plot), and Earth would certainly be the world with the hardest spirit to break (at least given the kind of characters that came from there in the Ultima universe), making it the victory at the end worth relishing, especially with so strong a foe as the paragon of virtue dwelling in it.

That brings me to a question that I don't think there's an answer for. Mainly because it's mostly in the realm of speculation.

If Sosaria has it's shards because of the Shattering, could it be that Sosaria Prime is also a shattered realm of Earth? If so, what shattering caused this one? In Sosarian lore, there was the Armageddon spell, could that have something to do with it? And then, what thing happened on Earth to relate to that? Maybe even in fiction?

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

I seriously doubt that Sosaria is a part of Earth, we have evidence that Sosaria exists as an independent planet. The Shattering simply did oragami with the planet, leaving 3 continents in barely-connected dimensional folds (facets in UO).


Evidence for Sosaria being independent:

1) The orrery in Ultima VII shows the Sosarian system, it is a geocentric model, even though that Britannians know their world orbits their sun. The system consists of Sosaria and eight other planets, each named after a Virtue.

2) The Kilrathi fighter in farmer Mack's field east of Britian, indicating that other races in the Origin Universe can get to the planet from space. I've seen it theorized that it was the personal craft of a 'missing' Kilrathi prince from one of the early Wing Commander games. (There is also an island in Serpent Isle that was to be populated by Kilrathi, but it was never finished. The only way to get there is to cheat.)

There is also a system on the Wing Commander star map called "Britannia," however I don't think it is the same planet/system. It’s been theorized that the Sosarian system is on the other side of Kilrathi space from the Confederation.

This also opens the door to the possibility that moongates are linked to Earth in the 20th-21st centuries, but Sosaria and Earth are actually in the 26th or 27th century.

 

[Trebr Drab]

You're probably right, Martyna. But I still wonder.
Was there an Earth system also in Wing Commander? Could this Britannia system have been Earth's system, if not UO's?

This is what's great about UO. There's lots of mysterious depth that might be something more, or not. But it leaves many mysteries that can be built on. It's really a shame that Garriott and company aren't here any longer. If I were EA, I'd do the "right" thing and sell it back to him if he ever wanted it back (and could afford it). Not that they would from a business aspect.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Erm, yes the Sol System was the heart of the Terran Confederation. Earth was a major player in galactic affairs in that game series.

Lacking a name for Sosaria's sun, we're left to call it the Sosarian System.

While mystery is good, I don't think this issue is a mystery. From all the games and LB's and the Avatar's interactions, Earth and Sosaria are completely separate planets.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ok. Thanks for the info.

 

[Woodsman]

This thread really makes me wish that Lost Vale had been published. There were definite tie-ins to Ultima VIII that were planned during U8's development, and the thing was close to being sent off to publishing.

 

[Annonymous User]

I am not an ultima lore buff by any means, but if the guardian tried to enter earth how well would his army's fare with no magic, fighting a race with tanks rockets jets guns etc.. etc.. etc... I doubt an ogre lord could take mean hits from an rpg....

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Ultima VIII barely made any sense. EA was really pressuring OSI to produce, and what they (really we) got was crap

I would have liked more info about the Zelan gods and people, all we got was the silly speech pack that kinda tacked them onto the "plot." It would have been nice to know if Pagan/Morgaelin was supposed to be one of the lost continents of Sosaria, or another world entirely. (Personally, I lean toward it being its own world.)

 

[Hildebrand]

...Evidence for Sosaria being independent:

1) The orrery in Ultima VII shows the Sosarian system, it is a geocentric model, even though that Britannians know their world orbits their sun. The system consists of Sosaria and eight other planets, each named after a Virtue.

2) The Kilrathi fighter in farmer Mack's field east of Britian, indicating that other races in the Origin Universe can get to the planet from space. I've seen it theorized that it was the personal craft of a 'missing' Kilrathi prince from one of the early Wing Commander games. (There is also an island in Serpent Isle that was to be populated by Kilrathi, but it was never finished. The only way to get there is to cheat.)

There is also a system on the Wing Commander star map called "Britannia," however I don't think it is the same planet/system. It’s been theorized that the Sosarian system is on the other side of Kilrathi space from the Confederation.

This also opens the door to the possibility that moongates are linked to Earth in the 20th-21st centuries, but Sosaria and Earth are actually in the 26th or 27th century.

Interesting stuff there. I remember the crashed Kilrathi ship in the field. And it played a specific Kilrathi song when near it.
I haven't played all the Wing Commander series but that's interesting that they referred to Britannia.
It would have been cool if they did indeed have a Kilrathi island near Serpent's Isle... another good tie-in.

No doubt Pagan was definitely another world. A world conquered by the Guardian. Even though I enjoyed Pagan (after the patch), I feel strongly that Pagan should have been a "Worlds of Ultima" like Savage Empire and Martian Dreams, where in the two spin-offs, the Avatar would adventure using different skills and spells.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Worlds of Ultima was a neat sub-series, its really a shame it wasn't continued. Same with the Underworld series.

It was nice to see lore for the rest of the Ultimaverse.

 

[grig_since98]

I really liked the story behind U8. It is unfortunate that for whatever reason it was released in a form that was essentially a platformer game. Oddly, I didn't have a problem with Underworld being first person, perhaps because that game was actually well executed and made while Origin had creative control over their product.

I hate to say it, but as much as I like the *concept* of pagan, it pretty much was the end of Ultima for me until UO came out. I found out about the Crusader series, which was sold to me as how U8 "should" have been. My feelings are similar except it is that semi-platform feel that works for Crusader and U8 should have been more RPG in feel.

Worlds of Ultima are great. I only played the Victorian Mars one, but I hear good things about the other.

There was also a game released that used the U6 look and feel called, I believe, "Bad Blood". Does anyone know where I could get a copy of that?