Ultima Online= Pvm AND Pvp

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Sorry for the minor rant but while reading the recent post about the supposed LS idoc I saw an obvious non-pvper trying to hijack the thread with some nonsense about pks.
Whether or not pks are at the idoc or the source of the idoc is irrevelant.
The fact that the guy used his response to talk about pks "bragging" was just ridiculous and childish.

The fact is that some pks brag about nonsense the same way some pvmers brag about nonsense while leading spawn or hogging a spawn or talking smack at a Trammel bank.

Which leads me to the roundabout point of my thread lol.
IMO if you are not pvming and pvping while playing Ultima you arent getting the intended full experience and are not in any position to talk about anything period!

Pvp AND Pvm AND stfu or you are quite as bad as the pks you whine about IMO.

You dont pvp because you say pvpers cheat and talk smack and ruin your gameplay?
Uhh, that kind of behavior happens just as much on EVERY facet folks.
Whats the difference if the smacktalker is a pk or a spawnleading punk?
You dont go to Fel because you may lose the crappy pixels in your pack? Thats pathetic. Why the fark play an MMORPG if you are worried about losing pixels?

Bottom line is that not playing all facets is like kissing your sister. You are puckering your lips but the thrill aint there(unless you are from Europa, j/k)

Peace

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Sorry for the minor rant but while reading the recent post about the supposed LS idoc I saw an obvious non-pvper trying to hijack the thread with some nonsense about pks.
Whether or not pks are at the idoc or the source of the idoc is irrevelant.
The fact that the guy used his response to talk about pks "bragging" was just ridiculous and childish.

The fact is that some pks brag about nonsense the same way some pvmers brag about nonsense while leading spawn or hogging a spawn or talking smack at a Trammel bank.

Which leads me to the roundabout point of my thread lol.
IMO if you are not pvming and pvping while playing Ultima you arent getting the intended full experience and are not in any position to talk about anything period!

Pvp AND Pvm AND stfu or you are quite as bad as the pks you whine about IMO.

You dont pvp because you say pvpers cheat and talk smack and ruin your gameplay?
Uhh, that kind of behavior happens just as much on EVERY facet folks.
Whats the difference if the smacktalker is a pk or a spawnleading punk?
You dont go to Fel because you may lose the crappy pixels in your pack? Thats pathetic. Why the fark play an MMORPG if you are worried about losing pixels?

Bottom line is that not playing all facets is like kissing your sister. You are puckering your lips but the thrill aint there(unless you are from Europa, j/k)

Peace

Well now...I have to agree with everything, I would hold one argument but it is futile as it applies to uo as well, and that is that even in a MMORPG you do not have to worry about losing the pixels in your pack (correct me if I am wrong) but most, if not all, have some form of safety from losing your precious items. =\ But to me this only adds to the "why not pvp" argument since you have nothing to lose except maybe 7k? I suppose it could be more if you are insuring all kinds of crap...but really, shouldn't be much to lose. BUT I am not pressuring anyone to do as such, some just do not enjoy it but I have to say they should not talk about pvpers like they know them if they do not play with them. =\

Just my opinion on the matter, do not have to like it or read it so whatever you enjoy.

 

[Lyconis]

That post was NONSENSE! I loved it I give it two thumbs up! Thanks for the laugh, but I must say pvp is harder to get into, gear and skills. I'm slow at building skill takes me for ever to make a pvp toon, good thing I been around that long.

 

[Fink]

Sideline to the original post, but..

Ultima Online = Pvm AND Pvp AND much more.

I've gone weeks without killing anyone or anything, depending on which characters I'm playing. That said I don't begrudge anyone else their particular gameplay, be it murderous or otherwise. And I do agree, you have to walk a mile in the other person's shoes before casting aspersions on them.

 

[o2bavr6]

I agree Goldy!!

Why the fark play an MMORPG if you are worried about losing pixels?

The only reason I could see someone being worried abut losing pixels is if they are new to UO. It's pretty hard for new players to earn a lot of gold like us vets. When I say new player, I mean someone who does not know the ins and outs of UO.

Skill gain can take time if you dont know the secrets to fast gains.

Gold farming is not to hard, but when you are a new char with crappy items, it's much harder to farm gold.

A decent competitive PvP suit of armor is more expensive than most new people can afford. So when they show up to PvP they get destroyed in 2 seconds. Partly due to the sub par armor and partly due to the fact that they do not know how to PvP like players who exclusively PvP.

But you are correct, it's only $7K gold so you would think more people would show up to test the "waters"

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
A decent competitive PvP suit of armor is more expensive than most new people can afford. So when they show up to PvP they get destroyed in 2 seconds...

THIS is what is wrong with the current state of PvP in UO. It's less about skill than pings, speedhack, and uber items.

 

[UOKaiser]

I agree Goldy!!




The only reason I could see someone being worried abut losing pixels is if they are new to UO. It's pretty hard for new players to earn a lot of gold like us vets. When I say new player, I mean someone who does not know the ins and outs of UO.

Skill gain can take time if you dont know the secrets to fast gains.

Gold farming is not to hard, but when you are a new char with crappy items, it's much harder to farm gold.

A decent competitive PvP suit of armor is more expensive than most new people can afford. So when they show up to PvP they get destroyed in 2 seconds. Partly due to the sub par armor and partly due to the fact that they do not know how to PvP like players who exclusively PvP.

But you are correct, it's only $7K gold so you would think more people would show up to test the "waters"

I agree with you. Though I consider gold farming the slowest ad most time extensive way to make money. But players that don't know or live out a bank box or are still new feel like gold is hard to attain.
Most people already tested the PVP waters and it's just not there prefer game. There are many people that feel accomplished reaching other goals.

Just like the previous poster said I as well can go months and months playing UO everyday feeling content and challenge and not once lift up my sword to fight another player or monster while still making large sums of gold just for the hell of it.

 

[o2bavr6]

THIS is what is wrong with the current state of PvP in UO. It's less about skill than pings, speedhack, and uber items.

EA is in a tough spot. They want to be competitive in the game arena. They want to gain and keep as many subscribers as possible.

So they introduced Tram and then made the game item based not skill based. I guess to be like WoW, who knows?

Tram did make it easier for new players, but then they turned around and made the game item based, which in turn made the game harder for them... go figure.

In my opinion the main focus of each character should have been their skills. A player with 100 magery should never beat a player with 120 magery. No different than a player with 80 magery should never beat a player with 100 magery.

The way the game is today, a player with 100 magery can beat a player with 120 magery due to ping/connection times, faster PC's, actual player cast timing and uber items, and I wont even mention hacks.

Skill should be and should always have been the dominant role in the game and not items or cheats. This way once a new player reaches the max in a skills they can be competitive anywhere.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... Skill should be and should always have been the dominant role in the game and not items or cheats. This way once a new player reaches the max in a skills they can be competitive anywhere.

I am hoping that with the new Imbuing skill it will make high end gear more available to everyone and much more affordable, and leveling the uber item playground.

And I am hoping the new clients will put a kink into the cheats' and hacks' game.

 

[RichDC]

EA is in a tough spot. They want to be competitive in the game arena. They want to gain and keep as many subscribers as possible.

So they introduced Tram and then made the game item based not skill based. I guess to be like WoW, who knows?

Tram did make it easier for new players, but then they turned around and made the game item based, which in turn made the game harder for them... go figure.

In my opinion the main focus of each character should have been their skills. A player with 100 magery should never beat a player with 120 magery. No different than a player with 80 magery should never beat a player with 100 magery.

The way the game is today, a player with 100 magery can beat a player with 120 magery due to ping/connection times, faster PC's, actual player cast timing and uber items, and I wont even mention hacks.

Skill should be and should always have been the dominant role in the game and not items or cheats. This way once a new player reaches the max in a skills they can be competitive anywhere.

I agree with your statement, i disagree with your definition of skill.

yes...on the occasion of a skilled(thus knowing there template, spells, timing etc) an 80 mage should be able to beat a 120 mage. It would just take time and knowing the spells to cast etc.

I do think that 120 should mean more, but it shouldnt be the be all and end all. Then skill becomes like items. It should be more even, less mods and im sorry...no insurance!

If, they do SA right and make the resources for imbuing overly abundant then the item based pvp/pvm we have today could still remain as it would be very easy to replace a piece or all of a suit. Yet there would be more risk in all areas of the game!

I wasnt there for the rampant pre tram PK days but i was there pre-insurance. I was PvM solely and one of the greatest thrills was trying to retrieve my armour with the guild at my side trying to aid me! Many times i lost a suit, did i care?

HELL NO! The process of losing it was the most fun! Plus items where relatively easy to come by.

 

[Lynk]

...
A decent competitive PvP suit of armor is more expensive than most new people can afford. So when they show up to PvP they get destroyed in 2 seconds...

THIS is what is wrong with the current state of PvP in UO. It's less about skill than pings, speedhack, and uber items.

Suits are INCREDIBLY easy to build with faction artifacts and a pendant of the magi.

 

[o2bavr6]

Suits are INCREDIBLY easy to build with faction artifacts and a pendant of the magi.

True, but you are now involving a new player in factions. We are talking about how people from Tram who never/rarely PvP in Fel due to loss of gold as well as how difficult it is for a new player to start playing UO considering how item based everything is in today's UO.

 

[CatLord]

Do not forget:
- costumizing houses and decor.
- fishtanks.
- plant growth.

Those are incredible challenges!

 

[o2bavr6]

yes...on the occasion of a skilled(thus knowing there template, spells, timing etc) an 80 mage should be able to beat a 120 mage. It would just take time and knowing the spells to cast etc.

I do think that 120 should mean more, but it shouldnt be the be all and end all. Then skill becomes like items.

Magery may have been a bad example, although I could write a novel onwhat I think is wrong with it.

It just seems to me that a person with 120 swords should hit more often and do more overall damage than someone with 100 swords. 20% is a really big margin to normally overcome in most real world cases.

Magery/Necro infuriates me with how no matter how fast or perfectly timed you can cast your spells, if the person you are fighting is equal to your casting and timing ability but has a better network connection, he has an advantage. The game should not be that way. No other skill has the same issues like the spell casting skills.

Imagine if a dexers template was hampered in the same way.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Magery may have been a bad example, although I could write a novel onwhat I think is wrong with it.

It just seems to me that a person with 120 swords should hit more often and do more overall damage than someone with 100 swords. 20% is a really big margin to normally overcome in most real world cases.

Magery/Necro infuriates me with how no matter how fast or perfectly timed you can cast your spells, if the person you are fighting is equal to your casting and timing ability but has a better network connection, he has an advantage. The game should not be that way. No other skill has the same issues like the spell casting skills.

Imagine if a dexers template was hampered in the same way.

I would not agree with the "Never" statement, but I do agree with the general principle that 120 should trump 100 at least 90pct of the time, but this could already be true. Also let us not forget 120 is not 20% more than 100, hmm unless you mean combat ability, the attack vs defend....actually, even then it is only 7% difference? Maybe that needs to be increased never realized how little you gain from those 20 skill points....of course keeping it equal at an equal level and making the gap greater between differing levels may be more complicated than first perceived, I don't know the system is flawed everyone has always known this, but unless you have viable ways to make it unflawed then no real use in arguing how it is flawed. >.< On the other hand, even if you have a viable way, it may never be listened to and is still pointless. *shrugs* Still agree with you, and mostly everyone else too...

 

[Mook Chessy]

Let's talk about your post over a cocktail!!

 

[o2bavr6]

I would not agree with the "Never" statement, but I do agree with the general principle that 120 should trump 100 at least 90pct of the time, but this could already be true. Also let us not forget 120 is not 20% more than 100, hmm unless you mean combat ability, the attack vs defend....actually, even then it is only 7% difference? Maybe that needs to be increased never realized how little you gain from those 20 skill points....of course keeping it equal at an equal level and making the gap greater between differing levels may be more complicated than first perceived, I don't know the system is flawed everyone has always known this, but unless you have viable ways to make it unflawed then no real use in arguing how it is flawed. >.< On the other hand, even if you have a viable way, it may never be listened to and is still pointless. *shrugs* Still agree with you, and mostly everyone else too...

Your right on the percentages.

I was just trying to break it down to the lowest common denominator. Meaning if we ignored all the new attributes, such as HCI and only look at skill level, the chances a person with 80 in a skill defeating vs someone with 100 in the skill is lower than if the skills were 100 and 120.

Seems to me that a person with 20 swords should beat someone with 10 swords and a person with 90 swords should beat someone with 70 swords. So why shouldn't it be the same for the higher levels in the skills, ala 100 and 120.

In the end you are correct that not having an answer is just as pointless as complaining about the problems

 

[Sassassin]

Just feel like I'd throw this in...

Trammel is the biggest grifer's heaven I've seem.
You got trammies that talk smack calling names and thinking they are oh so tough because they can annoy you with their SUPER SKILLED ABILITY. You know like double click on a lot of monsters, run near you and cast invisibility...

These tough guys are also the ones that would never go to fel and think all fel players are hackers because they can never win since they PvP on discord tamers and SAMPIRES. (you know sampires are so badass they solo peerless bosses with 4230562039472hp no reason why they cant win against a player with only 125hp right???)

They dont go to fel. Because if no one can beat them they cant lose. And they WILL get face planted the sec they leave a fel moongate by the very first real PK they came across.

I am in UO for 10 years, and ever since they introduced trammel, Ive seem MORE griefing and ****talking taken place in tram than fel. Because I guess in fel you dont have to be fed up by all the trammies griefing in "godmode" (trammel). You just see them and you lay them down until their armor fall off and start crying for hacks. *oh mommie he killed me, and he took my toys*

I've had trammie paging on me because I killed him in guardzone and he was too dumb to call guard. GM said he complained I harassed him by PKing him and I also used anti-guard hack(wtf is that?). Nope he just died too fast.

 

[Old Man of UO]

J...
You got trammies that talk smack calling names and thinking they are oh so tough because they can annoy you with their SUPER SKILLED ABILITY. You know like double click on a lot of monsters, run near you and cast invisibility...

These tough guys are also the ones that would never go to fel and think all fel players are hackers because they can never win since they PvP on discord tamers and SAMPIRES. (you know sampires are so badass they solo peerless bosses with 4230562039472hp no reason why they cant win against a player with only 125hp right???)...

Except I am seeing Felucca PvP'ers who never PvM doing the same thing in the Fan Dancer Dojo... trying to get me to leave. It's wrong to assume those are all players from Trammel.

 

[Pawain]

To follow your logic. Since I disagree with you. YOU have no right to post in any thread.

I started UO in oct 97. I did something silly and read the whole manual. It said that I could find a trade and people would need my goods. So, my original character was going to be a tinker. I made the gears that are such an intrigal part of the game.... My character became the richest avatar in the game... Then he woke up.

As others have stated. UO did not start as a PK fest or a PvM. Notice the term PK started pretty quick. PvM is much newer. Maybe because there wasn't a term needed to describe what the game intended you to do?

 

[Grumm]

To the OP. I thought the intent of this game, or any other for that matter, is to enjoy it. I did not know that if I did not PvP that I was not allowed to talk about a game I was playing. I thank you for opening my eyes.

What about crafting? How does that fit into your masterful description of how all of us should be playing?

How about letting people play how they choose? We all pay to play how we wish and your ideas of how people should play is IMO very narrow minded.

Since I don't PvP maybe I should delete this reply since I am not worthy of talking about this game.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Pawain and Gruum Completely missed the point.

The point here is if you do not pvp you should not be talking about it as if you do.

If you obviously never pvm (if you claim this you are more than likely a liar but I can not prove it so go ahead and claim it) Then you should not be talking about pvm.

It is a simple process the game is made up of a lot of parts, if you do not participate in all of them you should not be talking about all of them. Just because he sums of the post stating that you should enjoy every aspect of the game is not to say that is not true. It is not forcing a playstyle on people but, People in fel talk crap, People in tram talk crap, basically stop trying to separate Fel players and Tram players as if one group is better than the other.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

To the OP. I thought the intent of this game, or any other for that matter, is to enjoy it. I did not know that if I did not PvP that I was not allowed to talk about a game I was playing. I thank you for opening my eyes.

What about crafting? How does that fit into your masterful description of how all of us should be playing?

How about letting people play how they choose? We all pay to play how we wish and your ideas of how people should play is IMO very narrow minded.

Since I don't PvP maybe I should delete this reply since I am not worthy of talking about this game.

Sorry for the confusion folks. Please let me clarify a few things:

1) My bad as by Pvm I kinda meant the whole non-pvp thing of which crafting is a huge part. Anyone who knows of me from Chessy or Atlantic knows that my crafter Goldberg Inc. has been crafting high end gear for many, many years.

2) The main purpose of my post was simply to state that I am sick and tired of obvious non-pvpers trashing Felucca without having their facts straight. What makes it worse though for me is that most of the things they seem to despise of in Felucca happen 24/7 in Trammel.

3) Say what you want about pvpers & Felucca in general but bottom line is that a huge majority of pvpers also pvm and craft so they are able talk about all aspects of the game with a good amount of knowledge. The non-pvping, hardcore Trammy has basically no intelligent input when it comes to anything outside of Trammel

4) "narrow minded" is a term loosely thrown around in this thread. How about narrow vision? Because thats what you have if you only play in Trammel but want to talk about Felucca

Paece

 

[Maplestone]

The main purpose of my post was simply to state that I am sick and tired of obvious non-pvpers trashing Felucca without having their facts straight.

But are you sure you have *your* facts straight?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

But are you sure you have *your* facts straight?

That people who do not know what they are talking about still do?
Or just about the particular post he had quoted as being the reason he posted this?

Sorry just trying to get an idea what sort of debate people are trying to get into over this. I am not sure which of the many posts about that LS idoc he is referring to so I will not pretend I know what he is talking about, but generally...his post holds true for all the population.

 

[Maplestone]

Sorry just trying to get an idea what sort of debate people are trying to get into over this.

I have no idea ... I'm not interested in an argument, but I have to make a showing in these sorts of threads on behalf of the people who are tired of being being treated like second-class citizens of the game because they want absolutely nothing to do with PvP.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

The main purpose of my post was simply to state that I am sick and tired of obvious non-pvpers trashing Felucca without having their facts straight.

But are you sure you have *your* facts straight?

1) I have played all facets since they were created so I am fairly sure that my facts are straight.
But I am QUITE SURE that anyone who bashes a facet that they admittedly never played CANNOT HAVE THEIR FACTS STRAIGHT.
And that is what my OP is all about.
It's a very simple concept to grasp if you can only get over your blind devotion to Trammel ruleset and look at the whole game as intended.

2) Ty for the perfect example of what I am talking about btw
You just couldnt resist the urge to 'defend' Trammel only players so you had to jump in and speak of something you seem to know nothing about. Or have I been misreading/misinterpreting all your previous posts Maple and you have actually spent quality time in Felucca pvping in the past year?
If you have not then you appear to be talking from your preverbial 'donkey' no?

Peace

 

[o2bavr6]

I have no idea ... I'm not interested in an argument, but I have to make a showing in these sorts of threads on behalf of the people who are tired of being being treated like second-class citizens of the game because they want absolutely nothing to do with PvP.

I agree that PvPers have a lack of respect for people who exclusively play Tram, but that lack of respect is usually just verbal abuse. But with that said, if you read through most posts carefully, it is the Tram population that is less tolerant.

Whenever a person from Fel wants a game change, in most cases that change only affects Fel and PvP. Yet when someone from Tram wants a change it usually affects everyone in the game, PvM and PvP.

When reds asked to be able to go to Tram but have to follow the tram ruleset, it was all the Trammies who complained and said no.... that we made our bed... etc..

So if you really want to talk about second class citizens, then why is it that in Tram you can get a 6th level arcane circle at a bank, yet in Fel we have to go to the Prism of Light.

At the end of the day, if someone posts about crafting, and I know nothing about it, I wont voice my opinion. If EA says we want to make this huge change to crafting and again ,I dont craft, I wont provide my opinion.

Yet when we post about PvP, we sure do get a lot of people who almost never PvP voice their opinion like it was gospel.

 

[Corpsecrank]

I always thought of pvp in uo as an end game element something you do as an experienced player that presents a more in depth challenge once your done crushing some of the other elements of the game.

Until you have that experience you should stay away from fel and keep your inexperienced opinion of pvp to your self though. Only when you fully understand what pvp is really all about should you make comments about it.

And lastly if you don't care for pvp then don't pvp and keep your comments about it to yourself.

Simple isn't it.

The same applies in reverse also.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I have no idea ... I'm not interested in an argument, but I have to make a showing in these sorts of threads on behalf of the people who are tired of being being treated like second-class citizens of the game because they want absolutely nothing to do with PvP.

Well I do not think it has anything to do with treating people who do not want to pvp like "second-class citizens" only saying if you do not do it you should probably not be talking bad about it just because it is not your cup of tea.

I do not think these people need any defending, they are sort of worse at having that narrow view and treating others like "second-class citizens", I often opt out of the tram vs fel debates because I like both, And I think everyone should be able to play how they want. But I also feel people in tram are far more rude and over all dramatic than people in fel, this is not to say I mean people who spend all their time in tram, it just means people who are in tram.

I will not throw you in the pot like someone else did in this thread, but I will say people talk badly about fel just as often as people who talk badly about tram. The difference is that people who talk badly about fel are often times people who never go there, have never gone there, or go there so seldom their opinion can not be very...unbiased(?) And despite all the people from fel saying they never go to tram, it is safe to assume they all spend enough time there to know how it works. If they don't then I throw them in the pot with the tram people who talk about fel with out going there, it is pretty simple. If you do not go to tram enough do not talk bad about tram as if you have the slightest idea about it. If you do not go to fel enough, then don't talk about it.

Pvp is not for everyone, no doubt. But just because something is not for you does not mean you should try to sway others opinions on the matter before they ever even get the chance to try it (this happens a lot in tram when dealing with new players, or at least newer players who have never done it) Not saying all people in tram are like this, it just happens that there are more trammel players than fellucia players so it happens more in tram.

The rules apply both ways tho, so its not a tram vs fel ordeal, it is just "Don't got to fel? Don't talk about it. Don't go to tram? Don't talk about it. Don't craft? Don't act like you know what you are talking about. Don't play uo? Don't pretend you know what the game is like today. Not a stock broker? Don't give stock advice. Not a Doctor? Don't write a prescription." Yea probably extended that to far into real life, but just saying no need for anyone to be defended here. This thread applies to the population, is not targeted at any "set" of players.

 

[Maplestone]

Well I do not think it has anything to do with treating people who do not want to pvp like "second-class citizens" only saying if you do not do it you should probably not be talking bad about it just because it is not your cup of tea.

Did not the original poster write "Bottom line is that not playing all facets is like kissing your sister."? Did he not *start* a thread with a rant full of smack talk and belittlement of people who don't PvP? How much leeway should I give for him?

The OP may have had one person he was complaining about, but he pointed his cannon at all my fellow non-PvPers. And by doing that, he became the very thing he was complaining about.

We all make mistakes when poked in a sensitive spot (I'm certainly no exception) - but we've got to expect to be called on it when we do it.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Well I do not think it has anything to do with treating people who do not want to pvp like "second-class citizens" only saying if you do not do it you should probably not be talking bad about it just because it is not your cup of tea.

Did not the original poster write "Bottom line is that not playing all facets is like kissing your sister."?

All facets. That means if you do not play tram do not talk about it. That is what I consider to be the tone of the message.

Since he was talking about an isolated incident when he started the post I did not consider that the "tone" of the message, If you are not doing everything UO has to offer, I do agree with him you are missing out on a lot. But I wont try to convince you of this, I will only state as I have stated, if you do not pvp then do not talk about it. I would say do not talk about it at all but that is sort of "nazi-ism", but you get the point hopefully.

The OP also went on to compare that pvpers and pvmers do the same thing "bragging" He also started his "play every facet" speech with "if you are not PVMing". Really...I do not see anything here that is an attack on people who do not pvp, sure he stated that this rant was because of an obvious non pvper talking crap about pvpers (read my previous post about how people in tram seem to do this more often >.>) but after stating why he was posting he never again took a pvp or pvm side of the argument, so yea I do not see where you gather him aiming his cannon at people who do not like to pvp.

I honestly believe you are missing out if you do not pvp maple, why you do not pvp is your own reason and I do not think you are bad for not doing it, some people just do not like it and that is fine. I will never say anything bad about people just because of how they play, I admit I sometimes group people together by playstyle but it is nothing against that playstyle it just happens that it is hard to describe people, or events, or anything, in uo. I could just saying "this tinker did this" or I could say "this crafter" would anyone here think there was a difference? No. They would all jump on the band wagon and think I was attacking crafters because I started my post naming the person who caused it.

 

[Cetric]

Heres my $0.02


Trammel players cry about things that aren't in tram, and only in fel. They will not go there ebcause they are afraid of/dislike/are ignorant about Felucca.

Felucca players cry that people do not come to Fel, not because tram is where items are, etc etc. But because PvP is where it takes real skill to play the game in most cases. Sure, fighting lady melisande could be a challenge the first few times, but once you get the hang of it, it never changes, its always done the same thing over and over and over. At some point it just turns into a gold and item farming binge.

I view a PvMer as a single minded, i do things this way and im not going to try something new, kind of player.

I view a pvper as a dual threat, that can do both, and in many cases has to do both. You think insurance money buys pvp armor, weaps, jewels, arties, etc? of course not. PvM pays those bills, even if its power scrolls. Which is the risk vs reward aspect. You get to pvp, which is why you are in fel, and have a way of making money without going to trammel and disturbing the peace, where if a pvmer gets out of hand, you can SMITE HIM!

In Fel, things are never the same, you could be fighting 1v1, mage vs mage, fighting a bushido dexer, an archer, a necro mage, all kinds of different templates, play styles, levels of skill, etc etc, i could go on.

monster AI vs. player ai is nothing, no comparison.

One other thing i would like to leave this small statement that may or may not even add to this little debate her.

A PvPer can go to tram and help kill a monster, go to doom and dominate, etc etc. Most PvMers who have never fought a player, in open combat or otherwise, do not stand a chance against a pvper, ever.


I have pvmed, i have and still pvp, i can really only spend a short amount of time fighting a monster before i get bored with it. I did the ToT thing for about a day and a half, etc. Once you know the game mechanics you can do anything in the game, anything, but pvp. Pvp takes experience, skill, and knowledge of how things work and why. You can be a rediculously elite pvmer with these skills, and most people come to find that pvp is much more rewarding then nailing your 13th crimson cincture.



NOW

Roleplaying is a completely different monster. I tried it at one point, and UO IS a RPG. That said, it is just a matter of personality, and playstyle. I have known many rpers in the past who were strictly fel based type people, and many who are afraid to even type the word felucca. RP has dwindled a bit in uo, but it hink, though i wouldn't do it anymore, it is a very compelling and rewarding style of play. Watching it is fun, participating in it is fun, its all mentality.

 

[o2bavr6]

I have pvmed, i have and still pvp, i can really only spend a short amount of time fighting a monster before i get bored with it.

LOL, the other day I went to Tram to PvM for the first time in... I cant remember its been so long.

Anyway you should have seem me running around so the monsters wouldn't block me in!!!! After a bit I was thinking to myself.. Oh Wait, you can walk through monsters in Tram.

Only thing missing from Tram is the God Mode commands so that you never ever die and have all the best weapons and items. Which = Boring

Its funny how you wont see people kill mongbats over and over and over and over again, yet you do see them do this to other monsters even though in some cases the loot is no better than the loot off a mongbat.

What is the point of even trying to kill a paragon ancient wyrm when it only has a couple of $K gold and crappy items? The only exception would be Peerless or Doom bosses, but personally I find them boring as well.

PvP is not mindless playing and actually requires thought along with skill and can be different each time you fight different people. Where PvM as stated above is boring after a while.


Edit:
At least in the old days, pre Tram, when you were killing just about any monster you had a decent chance of getting a good item. In today's game it is 100% pointless to kill anything other than Doom bosses, Peerless, or Champ Spawns. So basically 80% of all creatures are for skill gain or new people and nothing more.
So this leaves me out if I want to PvM alone without the need of a group. In most cases you need at least 2 to 3 people to kill a Doom boss, Peerless of even a Champ Spawn.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....

I started UO in oct 97. I did something silly and read the whole manual. It said that I could find a trade and people would need my goods. So, my original character was going to be a tinker. I made the gears that are such an intrigal part of the game.... My character became the richest avatar in the game... Then he woke up.

As others have stated. UO did not start as a PK fest or a PvM. Notice the term PK started pretty quick. PvM is much newer. Maybe because there wasn't a term needed to describe what the game intended you to do?

Yeah, when UO opened its doors for business, I was all geared towards being a Merchant, Crafter. Hiring people to escort my Caravans from town to town (how many of you remember/knew that not all goods were available in all towns). There were not PC Vendors then but I was willing to play that part any way. While being the Guard for one of my friends doing mining and blacksmithing, some where/when along the line I just threw in the towel on the original idea. *Shrug* In my opinion, that form of community would be far superior to what we have today.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Heres my $0.02
...
I view a PvMer as a single minded, i do things this way and im not going to try something new, kind of player.

I view a pvper as a dual threat, that can do both, and in many cases has to do both......

What follows is not a reply to the poster I quoted, it is a generalization of PKr's.

And you clearly demonstrate why it is the Pkr that is the problem in UO. You also demonstrate why the PKr is the 0 tolerance playstyle of the two.

At the end of your Hyperbole, you demonstrate with 100% clarity that you have no concept of the possibility that others may not see what you do as have any value, as in no value to them, as in no entertainment value, that in fact you are of no value to them as in to be ignored a form of tolerance.

You on the other hand do only one thing sing the song of how your so overwhelmingly great, to those that ..... a form of intolerance.

There are dozens of threads started on statics that demonstrate clearly that the PKr crowd are fundamentally clueless about PvM, Crafting, Social Structures, enjoying the path etc. You know the very things that have no value to a PKr

One might say the number of TRUE PKr's that can view the PvM as a TRUE PvMr is about the same number of TRUE PvMr's that can view the PKr as a TRUE PKr, one might say the number of poster could easily be counted on one hand.

 

[o2bavr6]

Yeah, when UO opened its doors for business, I was all geared towards being a Merchant, Crafter. Hiring people to escort by Caravans from town to town (how many of you remember/knew that not all goods were available in all towns). There were not PC Vendors then but I was willing to play that part any way. While being the Guard for one of my friends doing mining and blacksmithing, some where/when along the line I just threw in the towel on the original idea. *Shrug* In my opinion, that form of community would be far superior to what we have today.

Good post... but

I think that it wasn't necessarily geared towards merchants, its just that back then when the game was new you pretty much needed a merchant just to keep up with the gold cost for your warrior or mage skill gain.


Basically the merchant was the person who earned the money for your other fighter class characters

 

[Cetric]

LOL, the other day I went to Tram to PvM for the first time in... I cant remember its been so long.

Anyway you should have seem me running around so the monsters wouldn't block me in!!!! After a bit I was thinking to myself.. Oh Wait, you can walk through monsters in Tram.

Only thing missing from Tram is the God Mode commands so that you never ever die and have all the best weapons and items. Which = Boring

Its funny how you wont see people kill mongbats over and over and over and over again, yet you do see them do this to other monsters even though in some cases the loot is no better than the loot off a mongbat.

What is the point of even trying to kill a paragon ancient wyrm when it only has a couple of $K gold and crappy items? The only exception would be Peerless or Doom bosses, but personally I find them boring as well.

PvP is not mindless playing and actually requires thought along with skill and can be different each time you fight different people. Where PvM as stated above is boring after a while.


Edit:
At least in the old days, pre Tram, when you were killing just about any monster you had a decent chance of getting a good item. In today's game it is 100% pointless to kill anything other than Doom bosses, Peerless, or Champ Spawns. So basically 80% of all creatures are for skill gain or new people and nothing more.
So this leaves me out if I want to PvM alone without the need of a group. In most cases you need at least 2 to 3 people to kill a Doom boss, Peerless of even a Champ Spawn.

I completely, 100%, agree lol.

And this:

Anyway you should have seem me running around so the monsters wouldn't block me in!!!! After a bit I was thinking to myself.. Oh Wait, you can walk through monsters in Tram.

There was an EM event on GL in Buc's Den few months ago, and there was tons of spawn, and i kept running through it trying to avoid it too rofl. Took me a good 10 minutes to realize i was in trammel bucs den.

 

[Cetric]

What follows is not a reply to the poster I quoted, it is a generalization of PKr's.

And you clearly demonstrate why it is the Pkr that is the problem in UO. You also demonstrate why the PKr is the 0 tolerance playstyle of the two.

At the end of your Hyperbole, you demonstrate with 100% clarity that you have no concept of the possibility that others may not see what you do as have any value, as in no value to them, as in no entertainment value, that in fact you are of no value to them as in to be ignored a form of tolerance.

You on the other hand do only one thing sing the song of how your so over overwhelmingly great, to those that ..... a form of intolerance.

There are dozens of threads started on statics that demonstrate clearly that the PKr crowd are fundamentally clueless about PvM, Crafting, Social Structures, enjoying the path etc.

I know i came off really argogant in my play style lol, its kind of been the sum of my day so too speak. But anywho. I do not bash either play style, nor the players that play those play styles. I understand that there are people that want to fight other people, trash talk, etc etc. I understand that there are people who want to fight monsters and dungeon crawl and things of this nature. I get it 100%, really, even if it didn't come out that way. To be honest, my main point is that most PvPers have to, or have, PvMed in one way or another, understand it, can do it if neccesary. Most PvMers are completely the opposite when it comes to PvP.

For Instance:

I guarantee you, that i could throw my sampire together, throw on my super duper dmg increase leeching weapon, and go bang out dread horns for hours. Its easy, there is no challenge, refresh pot, consecrate, curse weap, rinse repeat. If im running a tamer, in most cases, all kill - invis.

Now can that guy, the one that runs up and leeches everything and doesnt really do a whole lot but bang away on a creature for 30min, farm some items, and call it a day, come to Felucca, and start kickin ass? No, sure there are challenging monsters, or ones that need a few people to take down. There are some that require some major strategy and some that are mindless like the dreadhorn i described. What i'm trying to say is, there is no easy mode in pvp, there is no place where a new player can go and bang on other new players to get better at pvp, and learn combos and things like that. (There is no mongbats in pvp, so to speak) Think of it as, around every corner there is a peerless boss with incredible AI, the more experienced the more powerfull. I really hope you understand this. The real pvp community just wants to fight, for the fun and the challenge. The real pvm community wants to horde items to see who is the better item/gold farmer.

 

[Shanna]

From my experience, your typical trammie who is talking trash on PvP usually has given it a try and failed due to whatever reason (not a fast connection, not using hacks, not being able to afford a suit, etc.).

And in the game itself, 90% of the trash talk comes from PvPers rather than PvMers.

 

[Cetric]

From my experience, your typical trammie who is talking trash on PvP usually has given it a try and failed due to whatever reason (not a fast connection, not using hacks, not being able to afford a suit, etc.).

And in the game itself, 90% of the trash talk comes from PvPers rather than PvMers.

Trash talk is a part of competition. There is trash talk in PvM too, it just isn't as prominent as the pvp arena.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I know i came off really argogant in my play style lol, its kind of been the sum of my day so too speak. But anywho. I do not bash either play style, nor the players that play those play styles. I understand that there are people that want to fight other people, trash talk, etc etc. I understand that there are people who want to fight monsters and dungeon crawl and things of this nature. I get it 100%, really, even if it didn't come out that way. To be honest, my main point is that most PvPers have to, or have, PvMed in one way or another, understand it, can do it if neccesary. Most PvMers are completely the opposite when it comes to PvP.

For Instance:

I guarantee you, that i could throw my sampire together, throw on my super duper dmg increase leeching weapon, and go bang out dread horns for hours. Its easy, there is no challenge, refresh pot, consecrate, curse weap, rinse repeat. If im running a tamer, in most cases, all kill - invis.

Now can that guy, the one that runs up and leeches everything and doesnt really do a whole lot but bang away on a creature for 30min, farm some items, and call it a day, come to Felucca, and start kickin ass? No, sure there are challenging monsters, or ones that need a few people to take down. There are some that require some major strategy and some that are mindless like the dreadhorn i described. What i'm trying to say is, there is no easy mode in pvp, there is no place where a new player can go and bang on other new players to get better at pvp, and learn combos and things like that. I really hope you understand this.

I think the point is that PvMing is ... as you point out, static. This works both sides of the sword doesn't it. Meaning, you can go PvMing anywhere any time and .......

To go PKing is not the same thing, it is as you say, not static, it is dynamic and that cuts on both sides of the sword. You may encounter the BAD FOR PKIng variety, you may encounter the GOOD FOR PKing variety and you may encounter NOTHING to PK.

While I will not say you can not so casually compare the two, because your obviously are, I do not agree that the comparison is valid.

What PvMr should be expected to want to go PKing if their experience is the BAD FOR PKing variety? Perhaps just as importantly why should we want these PvMrs to learn the BAD FOR PKing Model?

What PKr should be expected to want to go PvMing if their experience is .... Oh wait it is static

But to not dodge your question I would restate your assertion that a PKr is probably a better generalist and a PvMr is probably a (you wont like it) better specialists. My opinion is that a Generalist is generally speaking better than a specialists ... over all.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

What follows is not a reply to the poster I quoted, it is a generalization of PKr's.
And you clearly demonstrate why it is the Pkr that is the problem in UO. You also demonstrate why the PKr is the 0 tolerance playstyle of the two.

Honestly his opinion that pvm is boring is no where near saying pvpers are the problem, his post does not demonstrate that at all, even if you are not using his post as an example you clearly quoted him for a reason.

How do you see anything that shows they are clueless about pvm, crafting or social structures? Curiously, you do know that most if not all pvpers do more crafting than any trammel based players? o.o

More players in trammel are solo players than in fel, thinking about it no one in fel is a solo player, where is the community in that? Lord oh lord... Your bias opinion does not really hold any water here. I Read his post again and still do not see where you got all that from. I do not see how he, or anyone else does not understand that people do not get entertainment from what he does, he simply said that is what is entertaining to him. You often take what people say and convert it into what you want it to read.

How are pvpers the no tolerance play style? Because he himself does not like pvming? Does not mean he or anyone else thinks others should not enjoy it.

You are demonstrating that not enjoying another players play style is a reason to be rude, of course through your broken English I can not really tell what you are trying to convey in your post, such as here:
"....that in fact you are of no value to them as in to be ignored a form of tolerance.

You on the other hand do only one thing sing the song of how your so over overwhelmingly great, to those that ..... a form of intolerance."

So you are saying because non-pvpers do not like to pvp it is just fine for them to ignore people who pvp? Not enjoying a playstyle is no excuse to be rude, sorry.

Not that I am attacking your English, it is possible that it is not your first language and that is fine, but that does not mean I understand what you are saying there.

 

[Cetric]

I think the point is that PvMing is ... as you point out, static. This works both sides of the sword doesn't it. Meaning, you can go PvMing anywhere any time and .......

To go PKing is not the same thing, it is as you say, not static, it is dynamic and that cuts on both sides of the sword. You may encounter the BAD FOR PKIng variety, you may encounter the GOOD FOR PKing variety.

While I will not say you can not so casually compare the two, because your obviously are, I do not agree that the comparison is valid.

What PvMr should be expected to want to go PKing if their experience is the BAD FOR PKing variety? Perhaps just as importantly why should we want these PvMrs to learn the BAD FOR PKing Model?

What PKr should be expected to waqnt to go PvMing if their experience is .... Oh wait it is static

Exactly.

The PKers that they are referring to, are the murderers that run about and kill them while they are trying to PvM in Felucca. So they get upset, and say they are terrible people. No, they are not, they are doing what they enjoy, fighting people. It is not their fault that you couldn't defend yourself or put up a fight.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

From my experience, your typical trammie who is talking trash on PvP usually has given it a try and failed due to whatever reason (not a fast connection, not using hacks, not being able to afford a suit, etc.).

And in the game itself, 90% of the trash talk comes from PvPers rather than PvMers.

Trash talking comes from pvmers far more than from pvpers. It just happens more often in pvp due to the fact that you interact with other players far more often when you pvp (you simply can not solo pvp, unless you have two computers and fighting yourself...)

People in tram are not all sugar and rainbows people, they are not angelic they are not even close to being good. And people in fel are not demonic or evil.

Failing to do something is not an excuse to down a playstyle simply because you can not grasp it.

Lets take the past influx of sampires that happened. If someone made a sampire, got all the suit and skills and everything. And then went and failed to solo a peerless, did they quit and trash talk pvming? No they kept on trying.
Trying to blame hacks or a suit is really insane, while this game is very item based people with low skill and high items do not beat people with low items and high skill.

You can kill hackers. You can kill people with a suit much better than yours. It is unlikely you will beat a person who is better skilled than you tho.

Cheating happens in pvm as well, I admit I dislike cheating in pvp as it directly affects me while I am playing, but if they are saying "cheating in pvp so I don't pvp" then they need to stop playing uo, cuase they should take the "cheating in pvm so I wont pvm" stance as well. You can not be righteous in one area and not others.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Exactly.

The PKers that they are referring to, are the murderers that run about and kill them while they are trying to PvM in Felucca. So they get upset, and say they are terrible people. No, they are not, they are doing what they enjoy, fighting people. It is not their fault that you couldn't defend yourself or put up a fight.

Let us not misunderstand each other.

The BAD FOR PKing are the hackers, the cheaters, the exploiters, the SERIOUSLY socially challenged people. The People that are more about PKing (if only mentally) the Person behind the screen.

The GOOD FOR Pking are, I covered part of this in another thread, the Role Player PKR's, the ones that are NOT trying to deliberately HARM the person behind the screen. The individual(s) that have what it takes to understand that some one has had a very very bad hair day and perhaps today is just a good day to move on and leave them alone. Versus, more or less as you said, the Casual NON PKr that comes to Felluca then gets bent out of shape that they got PK'd (sans any attempt to attack the player behind the screen which will always in my book invalidate the encounter).

These BAD FOR PKing are UO's enemy, they are the ones that should be driven from ALL MMORPG's except any that might be created especially for them

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....
People in tram are not all sugar and rainbows people, they are not angelic they are not even close to being good. ...

Uhm, how would you know that the ones your talking about are not Felluca Players on another character?

 

[Cetric]

Cloak & Dagger has it together, please refer to his posts on the subject. As for an analogy, since i like to make analogies, try these ones out.

In Madden for Xbow 360

The PvMer is the guy who plays season after season as the same team, but players all the different teams, and wins the superbowl everytime, while running the same offense every game. Sometimes changing up his offense, but he always racks up 200 yards rushing and 400 yards passing. Did i mention his fav player has 7 touchdowns? If you ar eplaying on all madden mode and peyton manning throws a 47 yard touchdown to beat you with 0 seconds left on the clock, you promptly quit the game and start over.

The PvPer is the guy who hops on Xbow live and plays against other players, who use different teams, and play different styles of offense, some run every play, some pass every play, some go for 2 point conversions every score. Some run balanced offenses and some try new things to better their game. The rush you get comming down to 4th and Goal from the 9 with time for one throw into the endzone against a real player, non predictable computer ai, down by a touchdown is the most exhilarating.



In Halo or Gears of War.

The PvMer is the guy who plays through the storymode over and over, and beats the game on every difficulty, gets every possible story mode achievement, and calls it a day.

The PvPer is the guy who runs through the story mode once or a few times, once they have felt successful, they hop on the Versus server and fight people, winning some, losing some, but always a challenge.



In Mario Kart

The PvMer is the guy who runs through all the races, beating them everytime, trying to better his score, making it far better than his friends.

The PvPer is the guy who runs through and beats the computer races, then challenges his friends to races to prove he is better then them at racing.


Did i mention Both the PvMers and PvPers are talkin ****, one is talkin to their buddies about how their score is better, or they have more achievements, the other is telling the dude on the other end of the headset, that the interception he threw in the 4th quarter made him win, better luck next time.



Do i Need to go on?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Uhm, how would you know that the ones your talking about are not Felluca Players on another character?

Because I know the particular people I am talking about. That is really a rhetorical question as it is obvious.

Or you could do it based on statistics.

Play in fel for 3 months, never go to tram do everything in fel.
Assume the number or players you run into and 1 in 10 will be rude.

Do the same in tram. And you find more rude players. I do not have a good comparison number, but 2/14 might be about right.

Statistically there are more tram players than fel players, so the likely hood you will run into only the fel players in tram is so unlikely that it is safe to assume most of the people you run into are full on tram players. This means you ran into more rude tram players than rude fel players.

I do not consider being attacked as being rude, That is the way it goes in fel. Being rude is just that, Being rude.

Down talking a person who had not done so to you first is rude. (usually the person who dies is the one who initiates the trash talking, so you could safely say if you got killed and didn't talk trash they wont either)
Ignoring a player is rude.

Meh, you could even consider it a safe bet that roughly half the time you will not end up fighting the people you run into in fel. While the possibility of having to fight while in fel is high, I do find more people in fel to converse with than I do in tram, and even in tram on some of the larger shards most of the people who stop and converse with me are people who play mostly in fel, not because they know me at all tho, of course I can not say how many fel players do not stop and converse with me in tram since I do not know the playstyle of those who do not talk to me, But no one on atl at WBB has ever stopped and said anything to me after getting a focus, even if they are like "dang only a 5" and I intentionally move into the ring and they get a 6, instant recall, only fel players have stopped and said thank you and even stayed and had quite the conversation. Again not saying fel people do not recall away, as I do not know the play style of those who recall, only saying only people who play mostly in fel have stopped and spoken to me.

Often times you can tell based on Guild as well.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....
Do i Need to go on?

The analogies were not required for my sake, I knew where you were coming from all along.

We simply do not agree as to your characterization and I have been opportunistic of your posts to put forth a differing view point.

The fact that the replies have not lead to a flame fest .... is a good thing.

What follows does not apply to any one in specific, it is just a piece of humor I have encountered over the years that keeps on surfacing.

"You obviously do not understand what I am saying because if you understood what I was saying you would not disagree with me".