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[Throwing] Thrower vs Archer... same thing?

Keven2002

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I've recently caught the bug to play UO a little more (again) and have broken out my archer with the new Rising Tides activities going on. Overall it's a nice change of pace from playing a Samp but there is definitely an annoyance factor of having to ensure I keep restocking arrows. That made me think about a throwing template and what the pros vs cons would be if I made a thrower (I can look past the initial con of having to setup a brand new thrower if I will get some good usage from it). I think I also read somewhere that at 125 str the garg's get a boost in range; wondering if that would make that's true still (and if it makes a difference)?

I stopped playing for a while some I'm not too sure of latest changes to things but I read in a few threads that throwing damage was kind of brought in line with archery. This makes me wonder if the only actual perk of having a thrower would be that I wouldn't use arrows since the damage seems it would be the same now (and a suit is way easier to put together on a human/elf).

I'd appreciate if you all could weigh in and give me your thoughts on if it would be is it worth making a Thrower if I already have an ABC archer template fully built w/ a 210 stam suit? Or am I basically just going to have a very similar character at the end (especially if the best throwing template is throwing/tact/anat/bush/chiv combo)?

What would be the pros and cons of creating a thrower?

Thanks!
 

Keith of Sonoma

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
I've recently caught the bug to play UO a little more (again) and have broken out my archer with the new Rising Tides activities going on. Overall it's a nice change of pace from playing a Samp but there is definitely an annoyance factor of having to ensure I keep restocking arrows. That made me think about a throwing template and what the pros vs cons would be if I made a thrower (I can look past the initial con of having to setup a brand new thrower if I will get some good usage from it). I think I also read somewhere that at 125 str the garg's get a boost in range; wondering if that would make that's true still (and if it makes a difference)?

I stopped playing for a while some I'm not too sure of latest changes to things but I read in a few threads that throwing damage was kind of brought in line with archery. This makes me wonder if the only actual perk of having a thrower would be that I wouldn't use arrows since the damage seems it would be the same now (and a suit is way easier to put together on a human/elf).

I'd appreciate if you all could weigh in and give me your thoughts on if it would be is it worth making a Thrower if I already have an ABC archer template fully built w/ a 210 stam suit? Or am I basically just going to have a very similar character at the end (especially if the best throwing template is throwing/tact/anat/bush/chiv combo)?

What would be the pros and cons of creating a thrower?

Thanks!
Welcome back!The biggest drawback to the Thrower, would be that you can't ride a mount/swamp dragon. You can however, fly at mounted speed. I do find with my thrower that going through teleporters and moongates takes a little "getting used to", when flying. But the saving arrows/bolts is nice!
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Immediate pros are you're one handed so can use pots without needing Balanced, no ammo both in terms of restocking and weight, suit and weapons are easier to build especially if you're intending a maxed out suit with reforged pieces/weapons and Armour Refined, and as a Gargoyle you get a 5 HCI racial bonus. Cons largely depend on the whole template and what you're fighting, not having a mount can also be read as a pro if (for example) your template involves frequently going in to Wraith Form, as you don't have to worry about what to do with it, or if you're utilising Ninjitsu's crazy defensive capabilities, or if you hybrid with Taming. So lots of ways that it's not a con to not need a mount.

The "best" template depends largely on what you fight with it. I wouldn't say ABC is a best template when there's so much more firepower you could have on a template.

They bought the base damage and speeds of all/most weapon classes in line with each other so a Composite Bow is the same as a Soul Glaive in terms of speed/damage and both have AI. I suppose you could also count it as one of the cons against Throwing that there's really no other weapon worth using besides the Glaive, whereas Archery has the Yumi for Double Shot, but personally I still feel that the pros f Throwing far outweigh any cons, especially in long battles.
 

Zalan

Crazed Zealot
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Archery- uses ammo, but its fire a forget without penalties.

Thrower- require more finesse from a player. You have to adjust your position as your target moves to keep it in the sweet spot.

I use to play a thrower. Then I noticed it was easier to play an archer. Archer can stand there and shoot the mob till there almost on them. Throwers have to move between throws to keep target in the sweet spot. Thrower can be as good maybe even surpass archers, but it requires a more skilled player to play.
 

Keven2002

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Thanks for all the feedback!

@Lord GOD - Lots of good info from you (as I've seen on other threads) so a few questions for you:

1) You say it's actually easier building a suit for a thrower (even though there are less slots)? Do you mean it's easier to build pieces as opposed to needing legendary arties (but still a pain in the butt to create a suit)?

2) I did read about the close quarters penalty and the "over throw" and "under throw" penalties and that was something I was thinking might be a con but you say they have basically removed this? Is this a non-issue for a thrower now?

3) Is wraith form really needed for mana on a thrower? I'd probably stay away from Necro since I already have a sampire that uses Necro; unless you think it's a must.

Just a note; my ABC Archer currently has 210 stam and through the suit (and town buff) alone I'm at 45% SSI so I've actually been using a comp bow with no SSI to get the 50% mana leech. I know I'm not at the max swing speed of 1.25 (I'm at 1.5) but this seems to work pretty well for chaining AI (with EOO & Honor) while still shooting almost as fast as possible; sometimes I will run out of mana but it only takes maybe 2-3 hits before I'm back at half mana and start chaining again. This is likely what I'd like to do for a thrower so that I could use necro skill points somewhere else (if possible).

4) I've heard people are able to solo the clockwork exodus with a thrower which is something I'd like to do; it's something I've failed at pretty horribly as an archer (maybe I'm doing it wrong?). I'm wondering if I were fighting something like the clockwork exodus, what throwing template would I want there? I was think I would want resist or something else over wraith form (or maybe this is when I'd need wraith form)? The only other times I'd use a ranged warrior would likely be for something my sampire couldn't get to (like the high seas mobs) or couldn't stand toe to toe with (like clockwork exodus); I'm not entirely sure what skills would complement that but I'm open to suggestions.

I appreciate the feedback!
 

Picus at the office

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Stratics Legend
If you are running the older client and have assist I found that viewing myself as a skeleton helped a lot for the functionality of the char. Easier to hit gates, seemed faster to my eye and less flapping of wings.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
1) You say it's actually easier building a suit for a thrower (even though there are less slots)? Do you mean it's easier to build pieces as opposed to needing legendary arties (but still a pain in the butt to create a suit)?
I mean that certain armour such as Stone (for the LMC bonus) has high base resists which makes it a lot simpler to Imbue the pieces you need, Legendarys are entirely unnecessary, and the weapons are also very simple to make. The cost of re-forging/Imbuing/enhancing bows is higher than it is to re-forge/Imbue metal weapons.

2) I did read about the close quarters penalty and the "over throw" and "under throw" penalties and that was something I was thinking might be a con but you say they have basically removed this? Is this a non-issue for a thrower now?
I've never found it to be an issue and I've been playing Throwers since the came out. Close quarters was removed for anyone with over *I think* 100 Dex which is basically everyone.

3) Is wraith form really needed for mana on a thrower? I'd probably stay away from Necro since I already have a sampire that uses Necro; unless you think it's a must.
It's not needed but it adds a huge amount of versatility and damage. For the same points you would spend on Necro for a sampire you could have Necro/SS and use Wraith Form and/or Curse Weapon and a few other spells. Against monsters with huge or unlimited mana pools it means you can AI every shot. Against others it can mean you deplete their mana pool so they loose a big chunk of their offense - most Necro casters are no threat if they can't Blood Oath.

Just a note; my ABC Archer currently has 210 stam and through the suit (and town buff) alone I'm at 45% SSI so I've actually been using a comp bow with no SSI to get the 50% mana leech. I know I'm not at the max swing speed of 1.25 (I'm at 1.5) but this seems to work pretty well for chaining AI (with EOO & Honor) while still shooting almost as fast as possible; sometimes I will run out of mana but it only takes maybe 2-3 hits before I'm back at half mana and start chaining again. This is likely what I'd like to do for a thrower so that I could use necro skill points somewhere else (if possible).
After just 7.5s a 1.25s swinging character will have done a whole extra swing than a 1.5s. If you did say 100 per swing after 7.5s at 1.5s you would have done 500 damage, at 1.25s you would have done 600 damage, considering that most 'boss level' fights go on for about half an hour that's an extra 240 swings you've potentially lost out on over 24k damage.

You could do all the same things to the template as an Archer that you could with a Thrower, as in make it able to use Wraith or Vamp or (like mine) both, but a Thrower has imho pros.

4) I've heard people are able to solo the clockwork exodus with a thrower which is something I'd like to do; it's something I've failed at pretty horribly as an archer (maybe I'm doing it wrong?). I'm wondering if I were fighting something like the clockwork exodus, what throwing template would I want there? I was think I would want resist or something else over wraith form (or maybe this is when I'd need wraith form)? The only other times I'd use a ranged warrior would likely be for something my sampire couldn't get to (like the high seas mobs) or couldn't stand toe to toe with (like clockwork exodus); I'm not entirely sure what skills would complement that but I'm open to suggestions.
I've only ever heard of people soloing it in the sense of using multiple accounts themselves not actually doing it with JUST one Thrower. Functionally there's no difference in terms of soloing it with one or the other, they have the same speed/damage/special (a Glaive vs a Composite Bow) and it's likely the rest of their template, their second account, their player skill or they just lied. However, if I was looking to solo it in the true sense of it only being the skills I can take on one character that are at play in the encounter, then I would most likely use a Wraith/Ninja/Thrower. I believe the Clockwork Exodus is faster than you can be so running is pointless which means negating attacks is best and Mirror Images work best for that and will allow lots of time damaging it while he re-aggros. I'm not an expert on Exodus though so if there's a different method then you'd be better off asking who you'd heard it from for their tactics/templates/techniques.
 

Innoxicated

Journeyman
Not that cost is necessarily an issue for the OP, but it's still a very good point to consider. And if you're familiar with reforging, you are probably also familiar with the extraordinary cost (pvp begets price-gouging, understandably) of fletching runics. In the Price-Gougers--err i mean Runic Vendors-- defense, I'll also admit getting the runics is slightly more of a PITA than smithing, but on my shard oak fletching runics can cost 200k+... And I still buy them out, lol. :'"(

Furthermore, speaking of the benefits of throwing from the crafter's perspective, let's not forget you can enhance Smith weapons to 100% fire/cold damage, fletchers aren't so fortunate.

When building your new garg suit it's worth also considering that altering staple arties is a bit of a money pit; the flip side to this being those previously altered arties are also cheaper, generally.

All that said, and the other excellent points Lord GOD and others have made thoroughly considered, I still prefer archery to throwing. Seeing your non-flying garg sprinting around sounds like fun, but the flappy isn't really a deterrent for me. On the contrary, I've derived a great deal of enjoyment camping the steps at my favorite bank just to annoy people. How about seeing two Legendary Bank-Sitters taking things way to seriously... A flappy wing over each is a great way to lighten the mood! The silence that follows: priceless.

For me though, the limited weapon selection alone is the real issue. Yumis are just sick if you aren't going to chain AI, and are very easy to reach ssi cap with, while also having respectable damage (especially with double shot). Magical shortbows are my go-to for spawning. And if you just happen to loot a variant of xbow with great mods you don't have to up and toss it.

Weapon options don't need to be a deal breaker... I mean how many weapon options do you *really* give your swordsman sampire?
 
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Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
If you do make a gargoyle remember at the planning stage that although earrings can be enhanced they won't gain extra resists.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Also, I don't know if Archery has a similar thing, but Throwing Mastery has Infused Throw I think it's called, which can do a lot of extra damage. I've seen as high as 80 per shot extra.
 

Keven2002

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Archery mastery honestly isn't that great IMO aside from the passive bonus you get from all warrior combat masteries. Which I guess would be another knock on Archery vs Throwing.

Overall based on all the posts it seems to me that the two a very similar (with pro's & con's for each). While I don't think I would need to create a thrower (given my current archer) I might build one just as a new template to play. That said I think I will create this on my other account where my archer is not since it really does seem like their skills will be the same and I would want to avoid too much skill duplication (and save some soul stone space).

Are there any must have pieces or mods for a garg thrower? Like is beserker breast plate something I should look to get?

@ Lord God - As far as using Necro; would you say I need many points in the actual Necro skill if I'm primarily only using it for wraith form (min of 20skill)? It seems like I'd probably want bare minimum Necro (if any; not sure if you need the required min to stay in form like using Vamp Embrace) and high SpiritSpeak so that I'm leeching more; or does the high AI damage (I'm assuming would average 100+ per hit) combined with mana leech on the glaives counter balance low SpiritSpeak (0 SS = 8% leech so lets just say 10 mana leeched per hit + random weapon leech)?
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
You would need 20 to stay in form, though I would go with 60 to be able to use Curse Weapon with 100% success. I'd advise 60 or more SS.

The berserkers breastplate won't let you get to the required stam for max swing. You need to plan it, that way you can see exactly what you need.
 

Innoxicated

Journeyman
I run 120 SS on my Wraith archer to maximize the mana returned, and it's awesome for AI chaining. I'm fairly certain it's overkill, but I already had 120 on a soulstone that I yanked off my sampire. It does make for a cramped temp, but it helps that I'm only running 100 tactics (just due to cost) and I think 80 healing. This is mostly due to 120 SS ps being a LOT cheaper than 120 tactics.

High SS also boosts your curse weapon duration: 30s at gm, 36 at 120. And you can cast corpse skin to effect from a scroll. Who doesn't love corpse skin?I

I'm suspicious though if the 120 SS isn't draining mana too fast on long fights... I mean I'm still draining the mana even if my bar is full, correct? Any overage is lost. In a long encounter the target's mana reaches 0, and my back-to-back AI's come to a halt. Regular weapon HML alone just can't keep up. You gents have any opinions or observations as to how wraith mana drain works, specifically?
 
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Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
I think 120 is definitely overkill on SS, especially if you haven't 120'd Tactics.

I don't think it drains the targets mana if you're full already.
 
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