Thread Closings

[sablestorm]

I have a request for the mods not to close threads so quickly. Often, I'll come upon threads that pique my interest if merely for means of discussion. For instance, someone was complaining about their event lantern running out of fuel and it generated a discussion about aspects of realism such as filling lanterns with oil. It's a potentially interesting discussion about whether that adds to the flavor of the game or is just a needless time waster. Alas, the thread was already locked so end of discussion. Do you guys have to have such a quick trigger finger with the tread lock? It's really frustrating to see some interesting potential discussions just get silenced.

 

[jbfortune]

IBTL

 

[Beer_Cayse]

oops! as jb notes: IBTL

Discussion of mod actions not allowed on boards. Better to take it PM.

 

[Derium of ls]

before this gets locked...

I agree with you 100%. I think the thing that bothers me is whoever locks it will say "I am tired of this thread" and lock it.Who cares if they grew tired of it, don't read it then! They are not elected Gods to serve us by making their opinion the only one that matters. Or even not that the thread was disruptive (even if it was, move it to the rant forums). I could go on, but I've already been warned before

 

[Llewen]

I say we start a protest movement! Let's start marching up and down UHall chanting, "We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore!"...

Ok, I'm doing something that involves a lot of waiting around and doing nothing...

Having said that, yes I've noticed once or twice threads that I would like to have responded to have been locked rather quickly. For the most part though I think the mods do an excellent job of channelling the energies of the frothing masses on these forums...

 

[Mapper]

I will admit I didn't understand the reasoning behind locking that lantern thread, Yes the question was answered but I never knew it needed to be locked.

But on the other hand though, If you had something to say about lanterns you should open your own thread, As that thread was about a specific question.

 

[EricVT]

Shhh...do not question the judgment of the chosen ones...they might be listening! =P

 

[slaveone]

Rut ROo your questioning MOD actions buddy!!! That's a big no no here reguardless of how wacked out most of those judgement calls are.....

 

[Black Sun]

I think the thing that bothers me is whoever locks it will say "I am tired of this thread" and lock it.Who cares if they grew tired of it, don't read it then!

Mods can't just ignore a thread or poster, no matter how much we may like to in some cases. Our jobs here are to keep an eye on what's going on, kind of hard to do if we're only reading the threads that interest us.

More likely in the cases of the "I'm tired of this" responses, it's because said moderator is tired of constantly having to deal with problem posts cropping up because of a particular thread. It's not an issue of "this bores me, so nobody can talk about it." It's an issue of "The problems caused by this thread now overshadow the benefits of having it remain open."

 

[Derium of ls]

Mods can't just ignore a thread or poster, no matter how much we may like to in some cases. Our jobs here are to keep an eye on what's going on, kind of hard to do if we're only reading the threads that interest us.

More likely in the cases of the "I'm tired of this" responses, it's because said moderator is tired of constantly having to deal with problem posts cropping up because of a particular thread. It's not an issue of "this bores me, so nobody can talk about it." It's an issue of "The problems caused by this thread now overshadow the benefits of having it remain open."

In all honesty, thanks! I tried asking a long time ago and never got a reply about that. Good to know you're willing to explain the thoughts behind it

 

[sablestorm]

One of the issues with text is you can't hear the tone in the words. I'm not angry here, I was making a request and explaining why I thought my request was valid. I will admit to being miffed with Stratics Moderators in the past (usually more the IRC mods who let the power go to their heads) but it's more a bone to pick with individual people rather than Stratics as an organization. Look, I know being a mod can't be easy. I've been arguing like crazy with some people on here myself and I can't imagine having to look after everyone. I just noticed that a lot of threads have been slammed shut early, in my opinion. Then again, I suppose I didn't see posts that may have been deleted. *shrugs*

 

[Derium of ls]

I had one of my threads locked not long ago, because someone started Trolling me and I in bad judgement gave into it and started firing back at them. I ended it and the thread was starting to get back on track, but it was locked. I wanted to repost it and try to actually discuss what I at first intended to. But I was afraid it would get locked right away, or be flamed for it.

 

[sablestorm]

IBTL

By the way, I still don't know what IBTL means.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I have, on a few occasions, re-opened a thread if the poster has convinced me that I have misunderstood what's going on in it.
Sometimes we lock threads because the OP asks us to.

IBTL stands for 'In before the lock'

 

[Barry Gibb]

The moderators are doing a heck of a job making sure the ROC are followed. I'm sure there have been mistakes made in the past. The threads probably get locked after a mod has to go through multiple times to clean up the filth. There would be alot fewer locks if folks left their attitudes at the virtual door.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[five oclock]

Well this thread topic has been answered...I think its time to lock it

hehehehehehehehehehehehe...

Actually a certain mod gave a really good reason for doing what they do

 

[Magdalene]

One more thing - if your thread gets locked and you think it was useful and would like to restart the discussion or get the original thread reopened, do NOT:
1. repost the thing right away (with or without comment that bad mods locked it but you want it to continue)
2. post a rant about how mods are bad and keep locking threads left and right
3. PM the mod in question using every expletive you can think of
4. (and that one is my favourite) post or PM invoking any amendments to any constitution or any free speech law you can think of... as they don't apply.

What you can/should do?
1. take a deep breath and reassess what went wrong
2. PM the mod who locked your thread explaining your reasons and inquiring if you can try to reopen the discussion in some way (either by reposting or getting the original thread de-trolled and reopened)
3. if you don't know who exactly did it you can either copy the PM to all the mods or use the admin e-mail.

Really, it's not that hard...

 

[Lord Chaos]

Its kinda sad that people have to bow down merely to get a non-trolling, serious thread that didn't break the rules reopened. And just as sad when they're locked merely because mod(s) don't like the topic personally and say thing "I am growing weary of this agenda." and other kinds of personal judgment calls outside the merits of discussions and the RoC.

Do you guys ever "step back and reassess"? Perhaps you should try it.

But either way, the control and final rulings have been leaning towards the more sensible side in a while, which is a good thing at least. And now for once in a long time I am surprised there being actual oversight that is willing to reassess. And in the end, its luckily just small things, all in all, UOS has improved all around.

 

[legendsguy]

Its kinda sad that people have to bow down merely to get a non-trolling, serious thread that didn't break the rules reopened.

Do you guys ever "step back and reassess"? Perhaps you should try it.

qft. give someone a little power, they'll abuse it for all it's worth.

 

[Lord Chaos]

To be fair, they've been fairly less abusive over the recent years.

 

[Shamus Turlough]

I like to think we don't go locking threads that do not need locking. Usually the main reason for me locking a thread is I will hear my iPhone going DING DING DING with multiple people reporting posts in the same thread. I will then go skim that thread and see what the deal is.

I think Petra and Mags made it quite clear. If you don't like your post getting locked, talk to the one that locked it.

qft. give someone a little power, they'll abuse it for all it's worth.

This right here was uncalled for.

To be fair, they've been fairly less abusive over the recent years.

Petra and Mags have been very instrumental in this. They have taken a very active role in leading us in the direction we need to go in terms of forum moderation.

Originally Posted by Lord Chaos
Its kinda sad that people have to bow down merely to get a non-trolling, serious thread that didn't break the rules reopened.

Do you guys ever "step back and reassess"? Perhaps you should try it.

Personally, I have in the past gone back and unlocked threads. It's quite ignorant to think we just go lock a thread and move along, not checking on anything afterwards.

That is all. *turns and shuffles away*

 

[sablestorm]

Just a question here. You know those numbers on the right hand side of each post: when you guys delete a post, does it renumber the posts or can we see where threads had to be pruned?

 

[Black Sun]

It renumbers them. They get a new number in a new thread when they're moved to the forum "trash bin".

 

[Shamus Turlough]

They are re-numbered. When we gas a post it resets the post count of the user.

ninja edit: Gah B_S, how dare you post the same time as me!

 

[Black Sun]

ninja edit: Gah B_S, how dare you post the same time as me!

"I fear you are underestimating the sneakiness, sir."

 

[Shamus Turlough]

 

[kelmo]

\

*edit* This post is dedicated to Kimi... *snickers*

 

[Sevin0oo0]

post count+1

 

[Storm]

ROFL

 

[Pawain]

qft. give someone a little power, they'll abuse it for all it's worth.

If you dont like the rules and proceedures, go post elsewhere. Nobody forces you to use this unofficial outlet.

 

[LordDrago]

Question: When a post is deleted, is a message sent to the poster making them aware of the deletion and the reasons? I suspect that some of mine have been deleted, but am not sure, and have not actually taken the time to do a complete and detailed search. There are times that I have written a reply, and after re-reading it, never posted it for various reasons. May be these i am remembering, thinking I did post, when in fact I did not.

Anyway: It seems to me that a lot of the recent locks have been due to a degradation fo the thread into back and forth arguments, not necessarily on topic, with both sides repeating the same argument over and over. I have not seen any recent cases i can think of where I could not, myself, see a relevant basis for the lock.


Oh, IBTL.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Question: When a post is deleted, is a message sent to the poster making them aware of the deletion and the reasons? I suspect that some of mine have been deleted, but am not sure, and have not actually taken the time to do a complete and detailed search. There are times that I have written a reply, and after re-reading it, never posted it for various reasons. May be these i am remembering, thinking I did post, when in fact I did not.

Usually, yes - especially if the post warranted a warning or infraction, then a pm is generated automatically. However if I've removed a lot of posts from a thread (sometimes one goes very bad in just a few minutes during busy times) I'll just post the thread with a reminder of the rules and 'some posts have been removed'. Sometimes a post isn't removed because of what the poster himself said, but because of the content of a post he's quoted.

Notice I said 'removed' not 'deleted'. They are not deleted, they're moved, as Black Sun said, into a kind of trash bin. Mods are accountable for their actions, if you have a query, first ask the moderator to explain (non abusively in a pm). If you are not satisfied with the answer email [email protected] and the admin team will look at the posts in the trash bin and, if warranted, reverse an infraction decision.

You can even question my decisions that way, I will abide by any decision reached by the rest of the admin team if they think I've made a mistake.

Please remember, when querying any decision, the idiom about flies, honey and vinegar.

The power I have on this board, such as it is, I did not seek. It sought me. I try very hard not to abuse it. I'm really, really not into 'power tripping'.

If we've locked a thread it's for a reason, please don't assume you can read our minds, ask.

 

[Viper09]

\

*edit* This post is dedicated to Kimi... *snickers*

Now that is just awesome :-D

IBTL

By the way, I still don't know what IBTL means.

...and you're not alone. I have no idea where these new abbreviations keep coming from.

 

[LordDrago]

Usually, yes - especially if the post warranted a warning or infraction, then a pm is generated automatically. However if I've removed a lot of posts from a thread (sometimes one goes very bad in just a few minutes during busy times) I'll just post the thread with a reminder of the rules and 'some posts have been removed'. Sometimes a post isn't removed because of what the poster himself said, but because of the content of a post he's quoted.

Notice I said 'removed' not 'deleted'. They are not deleted, they're moved into, as Black Sun said, into a kind of trash bin. Mods are accountable for their actions, if you have a query, first ask the moderator to explain (non abusively in a pm). If you are not satisfied with the answer email [email protected] and the admin team will look at the posts in the trash bin and, if warrented, reverse an infraction decision.

You can even question my decisions that way, I will abide by any decision reached by the rest of the admin team if they think I've made a mistake.

Please remember, when querying any decision, the idiom about flies, honey and vinegar.

The power I have on this board, such as it is, I did not seek. It sought me. I try very hard not to abuse it. I'm really, really not into 'power tripping'.

If we've locked a thread it's for a reason, please don't assume you can read our minds, ask.

Thanks for the clarification Petra.
I think you and the mods do an excellent job here and, by default, would believe that any of my posts that may have been removed, there would be good reason for it.

 

[Victoria Navarre]

One more thing - if your thread gets locked and you think it was useful and would like to restart the discussion or get the original thread reopened

One thing I have never understood is that Mods will lock a perfectly good Origonal Post because some people derailed it. Just delete the posts that caused the lockage and leave the thread open.

 

[Petra Fyde]

It's not always that easy. You take one post that's bad, you take one that replied to it, because it makes no sense otherwise, then you have to look at the one that replied to that one, and you find that one replies to the OP as well as the offending posts, if you remove it the people replying to that make no sense. Sometimes it's just so tangled up that you can't take out the bad posts and have what's left make any sense at all. On a couple of occasions I've removed the whole lot back to the OP and posted 'let's try that again?' because I just couldn't see any other way to clean it up.
It would be so much easier if people could disagree with someone without insulting them

 

[Victoria Navarre]

So.....*rereads your post* is it easy to remove all but the OP or not? I have had a few threads locked because they have been hijacked and I was afraid to repost the idea/thought because of the rule of reposting locked threads.

 

[Victoria Navarre]

4. (and that one is my favourite) post or PM invoking any amendments to any constitution or any free speech law you can think of... as they don't apply.

Zig Heil!! Zig Heil! Zig Heil!!​

​

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

 

[Petra Fyde]

So.....*rereads your post* is it easy to remove all but the OP or not? I have had a few threads locked because they have been hijacked and I was afraid to repost the idea/thought because of the rule of reposting locked threads.

Rather than being afraid to repost, pm the mod in question and ask under what circumstances the discussion may be continued. Several have, and discussions have been re-worded to obtain the result the OP wanted without inciting the trolls.

As for your answer to Magdalene, Freedom of speach does not equate to the right to insult and malign fellow posters. Nor does it in the American Constitution. Defamation of character, either by slander or libel, is an offence. I see that as the equivelant of our rule against personal attacks, albeit on a larger scale. Trolling is 'incitement to riot' in the same way.

 

[Lord Chaos]

If we've locked a thread it's for a reason, please don't assume you can read our minds, ask.

It would be helpful then if the mod in question didn't use vague reasoning, when the vague reasoning could easily be taken as a personal, not a professional, reason to lock the thread. Like "tiring of an agenda".

 

[Petra Fyde]

please pm me the details of that incident.

Never mind, I found it. While Kelmo may not be the most articulate mod on staff, his decisions are usually accurate. I support his decision to lock that thread.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I am curious as to why, as the topic is one of the most important and game changing features ever added to UO. There's bound to be many facets of this discussions.

Apart from 2 trolls at the end, the thread was fairly clean and it didn't break the RoC, it wasn't spiraling out of control, it wasn't degenerated. (heck, definitely not compared to Classic Shard threads)

Kelmo has already expressed (as have you) quite vehement opposition of the view in that thread, then its incredibly unfortunate one of you comes in and says they're "tired of the agenda", which agenda would that be? Considering he's completely against the "agenda" expressed in the thread, then it stands to reason that he's closing the thread simply because he doesn't want the topic, which is a really bad moderator decision.

So again, can you tell me the reason, either here or in PM? Thanks.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I very nearly locked that at the opening post. As I read it you are advocating allowing cheating and encouraging people to break EA's terms of service.

 

[Snakeman]

I have, on a few occasions, re-opened a thread if the poster has convinced me that I have misunderstood what's going on in it.
Sometimes we lock threads because the OP asks us to.

IBTL stands for 'In before the lock'

And this is WHY the Lamp thread was closed. I ASKED Petra to for me. Because of comments seriously not needed

Lamp oil. Provisioner. You know now what it does.

Yes I know what it is & where it is & what it does. After 10 yrs I should..

Looks Like the wrong lamp too

Yes, I knew it was the wrong lamp, but unfortunately Napa, as well as a few other Shards NEVER had the chest/box placed on opening day on their shards to receive the new Ricardo lamp at the Warf in Britt... So we made do with what we had. That part of the Arc/Event was missing (other posts had been Posted regarding this problem many times in UO Hall already, must be you didn't read them) Then the Chest was finally put up for us & many other shards (Thanks Petra) in the middle of day 4 of the Arc, Myself not getting on til late pm & just started running the quest as I had for last 3 days & since I had lent many many people that lantern I used so they could do the event it now was dry. A few lanterns I lent people to use never made it back to me. So I was stuck using 1 for all my toons. So my fault there, I guess I need ESP to.

LOL. Can't you find better stuff to complain about? Honestly, Some would argue this adds to the realism of the game. Lamps run out of oil. Stuff happens.

ffs. __________________

Like I, or anyone else should have to worry about an event/Arc item in a game running out. Realism yes, I can see it in many things in game but not an Arc/Event item that has to be used many times.
You want Realism, complaint: Why should a Warrior be able to sit for hours on end swinging nonstop a heavy sword & NEVER tire out ??? (Golem Training my Example on this NON Realism thing)
Bandages, why should DEX only play the role on how fast a bandage heals.....? It should be the healing skill itself not the dex. Why should a 80 heal skill person be able to out heal quicker a 120 or even a 110/100 Skilled toon only simply because his Dex is 150 ? Yes it may be a little less heal per band aid, but 2 Sec heal vs 4 to 6 sec's, that 2 to 3 x's healing to 1 with less Dex but more Healing skill. It doesn't make sense.
Why the longggggg wait on a fail for a Bard... Why not just retry as one would in reality??
I could go on with more but I won't

Simple reason the Lamp Post was Locked is I could see nothing good coming from it by some of the sarcastic comments being made right off, the bs wasn't needed. So I asked Petra to Lock the post... No Mod intervention at all it was My Wish

 

[Kiminality]

*edit* This post is dedicated to Kimi... *snickers*

 

[Lord Chaos]

Eh?

How is asking EA to open 2 new shards with full anti-cheat measures to learn from and leaving the existing shards alone encouraging people to break EA's rules?

Currently the game allows cheating in a sense, I am advocating keeping status quo on that mark, and think in alternative terms. As the immediate solution that springs to peoples mind would damage the game, perhaps even beyond repair. I am advocating UOs continued existance, its continued growth or at the very least lessened decline.

[small rant]

I played another game since its start and one of the very things that messed up the game almost beyond repair, was a kneejerk reaction to try and curb cheating by putting in anti-cheating measurements. What happened was that a large majority of players who used small time illegal macroprograms to correct flaws in the game (like using soul/spirit shots) and other minor things that didn't affect the game at all, were now all forced to start using the new emerging superhardcore cheating programs that had defeated the anti-cheat measurement. The result? The game quickly became overrun with serious cheaters, as the small time cheaters found more and more features they could do beyond normal gameplay. I really do not want to see that happen to UO.

Through a friend of mine (who yeah, does cheat), I've found out that through the guild he's in there's 3 guys that has developed a rootkit style undetectable UO cheatprogram that pushes packets undetectably to the client and does all kinds of things. They're keeping it internal for the guild, but as far as he's told it, the 3 guys are waiting in glee for the anti-cheat measurements to come in, then they'll after some time, release their program (for a price per user) and make a fortune. And in the end we'd end up with a far worse cheat program that just can't be gotten rid of and has no problem breaking the game in the most heinous manner. At least the most common script program for UO has a sort of moral code that disallows turn-in scripts, gold farming scripts and quest scripts.

And before you start screaming "CHEATER" here, then ask yourself this...why on earth would ask the kind of questions I do on Stratics or make these kinds of discussions there if I was a cheater? It would be far easier to ask them on the cheat forums instead and I would probably get answers that I couldn't get here. So honestly, it would really make no sense for me to be a cheater. The furthest I am from normal game play is purchasing stuff for RL $$. (oh and once did use the UOA Loopie thingie, there I said, I am a bad cheater rolleyes: )

[/small rant]

 

[Petra Fyde]

I haven't said you're a cheater. I don't know how you play the game, but you are advocating allowing cheating to continue, unchecked, in our current game. A situation that most players have abhored for years and are eagerly awaiting a fix for. In my judgement, and apparently Kelmo's, that thread could go nowhere but downhill into a troll fest. Therefore it was locked.

 

[Kaleb]

Mods are people too, and from other parts of the world, I can see how clearly something that can mean something harmless in the US but can be offensive in Europe. Over the past year or 2 the mods have been doing a pretty decent job compared to their predecessors. And its pretty natural for any new mod to get a tiny bit over zellious when it comes to locking posts but soon it evens up a bit. Like said before it doesnt hurt to go through the proper channels, and make sure you have not been drinking a lot prior to posting lol lesson learned on my side lol.

 

[Llewen]

I played another game since its start and one of the very things that messed up the game almost beyond repair, was a kneejerk reaction to try and curb cheating by putting in anti-cheating measurements. What happened was that a large majority of players who used small time illegal macroprograms to correct flaws in the game (like using soul/spirit shots) and other minor things that didn't affect the game at all, were now all forced to start using the new emerging superhardcore cheating programs that had defeated the anti-cheat measurement. The result? The game quickly became overrun with serious cheaters, as the small time cheaters found more and more features they could do beyond normal gameplay. I really do not want to see that happen to UO.

First off, no one is ever "forced" to cheat. It is a choice. It doesn't matter what the situation is, there is always an alternative to cheating.

Second, I'll repeat what I have said before, no anti-cheat system is going to get rid of cheating entirely. And yes it does need to be a "system" because a successful anti-cheat system will always involve using multiple coordinated tactics and strategies. One of the components of that system will be third party cheat detection.

In a game environment where there is no effective anti-cheat system, 99% of the cheating that goes on is casual cheating, which is opportunity based. Most cheat because the cheats are easily available, and there are no consequences to cheating. An effective anti-cheat system kills that kind of cheating stone dead.

An effective anti-cheat system drives the hard core cheater underground, but what it also does is make the cheaters easier to spot, and it also forces cheaters to be much more subtle with their cheats, or they will get caught. There will always be a few that avoid detection, but an effective anti-cheat system will eliminate casual cheating, and in the process the vast majority of the actual cheating that goes on in a game.

Through a friend of mine (who yeah, does cheat), I've found out that through the guild he's in there's 3 guys that has developed a rootkit style undetectable UO cheatprogram that pushes packets undetectably to the client and does all kinds of things. They're keeping it internal for the guild, but as far as he's told it, the 3 guys are waiting in glee for the anti-cheat measurements to come in, then they'll after some time, release their program (for a price per user) and make a fortune. And in the end we'd end up with a far worse cheat program that just can't be gotten rid of and has no problem breaking the game in the most heinous manner.

There is no such thing as an undetectable cheat program. If it runs on your computer, it can be detected. Some are more difficult to detect than others, but none of them are undetectable.

At least the most common script program for UO has a sort of moral code that disallows turn-in scripts, gold farming scripts and quest scripts.

There is no "moral code" involved when it comes to the-program-which-shall-not-be-named. If you look at their site you will see that many of the scripts which are publicly available give their users a clear, unfair advantage, which just as clearly violates any form of moral gaming code. And you don't have to look too hard to find all of the kinds of scripts that the developers don't allow to be uploaded to their site.

And before you start screaming "CHEATER" here, then ask yourself this...why on earth would ask the kind of questions I do on Stratics or make these kinds of discussions there if I was a cheater? It would be far easier to ask them on the cheat forums instead and I would probably get answers that I couldn't get here. So honestly, it would really make no sense for me to be a cheater. The furthest I am from normal game play is purchasing stuff for RL $$. (oh and once did use the UOA Loopie thingie, there I said, I am a bad cheater rolleyes: )

Whether you are, or are not, a cheater, is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that you have consistently advocated on behalf of cheaters and cheating, which puts you squarely in their camp.