Fun. PvP in UO is what makes this game unique, and better than any other game currently on the market. As long as I have a good PvP suit, I really don't care about anything else. I realize, however, that I am probably one of the very few that hold this mentality. I do not want to be bothered with making a new suit every time I get ganked 10v1, lose connection, etc. No insurance is just far too extreme. I would actually like to see the insurance cost go up though, it's kind of pitiful where it is now.
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I appreciate the civility. I've played full loot ffa pvp games before. I played the early years of UO, and more recently I played Darkfall. One thing I can tell you is that in full loot games the average player spends a lot more time gathering ingredients and crafting than they do pvp'ing. I realize that you aren't suggesting full loot, but you certainly are suggesting a step down that road.
I actually pvp a lot more in UO than I ever did in Darkfall because most of my time there was spent crafting, and if you don't craft then you have to spend much more time getting the gold to buy equipment other ways. Insurance in many ways is the friend of pvp because everyone is back in the fight much quicker. So if you really love pvp, then insurance is actually a good thing.
P
Prince Caspian
Guest
First of all, props for couching it as "opinions." A little bit of courtesy when responding to contrary posts is refreshing to see. Everything posted here is opinions, and none of us are necessarily right or wrong in every case.
Second, the loss of risk is undeniable. For someone who played through the dread lord days, I gotta tell you that the worst a PK can do to you right now (pretty much its at losing your cursed items and any items you didn't insure) pales to what could happen back in the day (lose your house key and literally lose years of playing when you get robbed overnight).
However, vox populi. People obviously don't care for the high risk game play. All the anti-insurance folks railed over what would happen, which, let's face it, has happened (ie now you have one suite of equipment that you will never lose, which has destroyed crafting, led to ubergaming and pointjuicing, etc).
As I posted a few days ago, DLD Ultima Online was a zoo. Actually, a jungle would have been a better analogy. Getting back into town with your equipment and your night's treasure intact was an accomplishment in itself. We weren't incredibly prosperous and collected super bauble items, we were trying to scrape by with PKs and thieves every which way. Hell, even getting into town with that rare item didn't mean you were home free yet. Dozens of drobed thieves swarmed the bank and robbed with impunity.
Some longtime vets have such negative memories of that UO that they will bristle at any suggestion whatsoever that involves other-player-generated-risks like that. Because the scope, and the griefing, were beyond belief.
Since you don't get it, let me explain it to you quite thoroughly, 'kay? Pay attention, I know you'll understand.I said I was playing Devil's Advocate
How is it more costly to invest in a suit that you CANNOT lose to repeatedly losing an imbued suit if it can't be insured?
It is your opinion that it's not any good. Don't worry, it doesn't hurt my feelings.
If they can afford to imbue a high end pvp suit, they can afford runic craftables as well. Trust me. may not be as high end or with as desireable mods, but they cost isn't that much different.
Do you remember what the price of runic kits used to be? I think they were around 2-3 mil. Val hammers were like 25 mil or more, until they were duped for like 15 mil. Val hammers weren't often used, however they sometimes were for specific items.
Now, usually you would SOMETIMES get 1 or 2 OKAY pieces from 1 kit, but usually didn't. It takes several kits to make a good suit, plus TONS of leather.
So, now it's more likely people will put their imbued suits away unless they're running with large groups, and people who have stockpiles of barbed kits know that people are going to be buying like crazy. So then they decide to sell them for 4-5 mil per. People will probably also buy large commodity deeded leathers, and I don't even know the going rate of leather but that'll jump too.
It takes about 50-100 barbed kits to make a higher end suit that was really very usable for PVP in order to really compete or last. Calculating that without leather and at the old rate of barbed kits, that's already over 100 mil.
With imbuing, any player can easily go out and farm their ingredients and get a decent suit within a few days. They can get into PVP and start learning, and easily begin to compete. No one would be able to compete with players and their god suits who could afford to drop hundreds of millions on a suit. An imbued suit costs around, I don't know, 5 mil?
I won't even begin to calculate non imbued weapons into the equation.
Not everyone can invest 100 mil (or more, which it would be 100% guaranteed) on a suit, and no one wants to constantly lose their imbued suit just to keep paying 5 mil+ every time to remake something.
I agree.....maybe an inflatted rate for imbued items potentially, or overall. I think it's FAR tooo cheap.
To be honest, that's one of my UO obsessions is making the perfect suit for my 15-20+ characters. I would be crushed going through the work of making it.
But that's the thing and the point of the argument....it's not that there is NO insurance, just not with imbued items. If you spent the time and dedication working to build that elite suit with runic items.....I think you SHOULD be able to keep and cherish it. But taking the time to just harvest ingredients and make the ideal suit is way to easy. I think that is the factor. It would make it a bit more of a challenge to compete in PvP....and based on your decisions should conclude the final result.
Plus, people don't just make "medicore" suits when they pvp.....they make the balls to the wall ideal top notch pvp suit. That's probably why you'd be upset. But if you could make quick and easy suits that get the job done with low cost.....could be effective.
No worries. I didn't want anyone to take it personal just because i'm defending a stance.
I agree with you on the insurance thing, but i'm not saying to remove it completely ---- (using my idea) ---- if you are going to spend time, why not spend time on a runic suit that you can keep, as opposed to the imbued suit that you can make, but potentially lose.
Several reasons:
Imbued:
1. Imbued suit can be made easy and to your specifications
2. You can make elite suits that can take a massive amount of time to build using runic crafted items
3. They are easy to make (for the most part) and can be cost effective based on the mods or resources available
4. Don't even get me started on the weapons you can create.....and with ease.
5. CANNOT BE INSURED. You die, you either have a back up, or you are out of the battle
Runic:
1. Same mods, higher intensity, but harder to find what you want.
2. Can be insured, can be powdered at any time
3. Ability to get back into the field after you die immediately.
Toss in the fact that you can lose them (in Felluca ...this does not apply to Trammel PvMers, etc) and things will change drastically:
1. Use an imbued suit that is powerful, run the risk of losing it, but have the ability to have a greater advantage over your opponent.
2. Is your template's ability rely solely on your suit? May have to change your template if you lose that imbued SC -20 MW.....that can hurt ALOT of templates, change the balance and the risks, change the face of PvP.
3. You a warrior? You a mage? You use an imbued weapon? Watch out for the classic disarm thief.....now it's mine!
4. You used an imbued suit and die in the battle, have a back up or you are done for the time being.
5. Or....just get a runic suit.... risk strength for stablity....or build it up overtime to become a greater adversary in battle.
It's just a change of focus....now people will have to really spend time to build that perfect suit they wont' lose. But they can also build that ideal suit with imbuing with the chance of losing it. But if you are good, don't worry about it, you may not lose it anytime soon. Looking to get back into PvP? You can practice in Trammel or say the Arenas with no looting?
And that's the point.....give some risk to those who play in a risky environment (i.e -- FELLUCA)
If you want to PvP you should risk something more than just some GP......
Grrrrr.........I miss the good ol' day sometimes.....yeah I've lost my fair share, but i've also gained much.
So, that is if you are a silly player, and decided to just craft all the pieces yourself.....which would be foolish, but if you have the resources....you can. Depends on how cost effective you want to be. But understand that if you are going that route, i'm sure you can make PLENTY by selling the unused pieces as well.....happened like that for years.
OR
You can work with other players and buy the pieces that you are looking for....like how a lot of people USED to.
I never crafted ONE piece of runic armor prior to imbuing...I found ever ideal piece from other players and build some impressive suits.....even with jewels.
So it depends on your "method" on how much it may cost, what you find is ideal, and what you want to risk doing.
I could spend a 100 million on runic hammers and get squat or spend half that and get something awesome. Your decision on what the best ROI is.
Your equation doesn't really match up, you are just really weighing in the worst possible scenario. Maybe you should revisit the whole picture.
And you say no one could compete or learn??? I already stated before that you could say learn in Trammel (where it is supposed to be safe) with an imbued suit with no fear of losing it.....
People could still learn, Trammies are happy, Felluca changed just that much more....crafters get more uses, alot of gathers can make money....even simple low skill imbuers can do well.
You don't learn to PvP in Tram.
It's pointless making arguments with you, because you don't hear a single solitary thing. Thankfully, you're not a dev. You can go back to the classic days when they implement a classic shard, if they ever do, if there's ever enough people that actually want that. But there really isn't.
To me, it just sounds like you want shiney things to steal. This isn't from a pvp basis at all, otherwise you'd know how much PVPers appreciate item insurance.
I said figuratively about PvPing about learning how to PvP in Trammel. Which you could if you joined a particular guild, arenas, etc.
I believe i've heard everything you had to say, maybe I don't agree with it, I have valid counter arguments to everything you've noted, and you don't like the responses.
I'm actually a Consultant and a Developer....nbd.
Unfortunately, you take this far too personally.....this is just an idea for discussion. And apparently you haven't listen too well, because all I suggested was removing insurance from imbued items. And you tend to put words in my mouth as you know my motive when you actually don't. I've hit plenty of valid points, besides thievery. Thieves would benefit by reviving the disarm thief class, and if they are lucky to have an imbued item in a backpack to steal, that's it.
Sorry you don't like my view point, but don't get angry that I've thrown many possible variables to counter your argument which makes mine stronger.
H
Heartseeker
Guest
This...I like this idea.
Believe it or not, PvP happened before imbued items, bro. PvP happened before insurance too, brah, and even then we used power, vanq items. Yeah they dropped on death. Can you believe it?I think this would run a lot of people away from PVP once their items were lost because they wouldn't be able to afford a runic made suit, and it is far too costly to continue imbuing a suit.
I feel like I'm talking to a friggin' wall here.
People bought and used runics back then too, AND there were more people PvPing during those days.
I concur with you on that....but if you get lucky with the Val Hammers....it could be worth it. I had a war fork that was:
48 Hit Lightning
48 HLD
50 HLA
30 SSI
FC 1
50 DI
Can't imbue that.....
Haha, one could only wish. Get rid of insurance and Trammel and we'd be in good shape.This...I like this idea.
Shocking on how reliant people are on imbuing now to compete.....imagine a time before it was possible of making a killer suit easily.....wasn't too long ago as a matter of fact...
Speaking as someone who plays mostly in tram, but does venture into fel....I do not like this idea, and would probably end most of my fel play. With only limited time to play, and limited funds, I do not want to spend my time remaking my suits everytime i die in fel to a red (3 times yesterday for those keeping score).
It seems to me, that this idea would result in greater inequality among people playing in tram, and make it much more difficult for players trying to get into PvP to do so. They would either be forced to pay a ton of money for an even half-way decent runic suit, or end up paying a ton of money and/or time making 50 imbued suits (because we all know a person trying to get into PvP will die a lot).
On a slight side note, i stillfind it interesting that people who talk about the rush of excitement they want to bring back to the game by eliminating inurance or insured items still run around with unsured suits. If it is so exciting, why not lead by example and un-insure your suit?
It seems to me, that this idea would result in greater inequality among people playing in tram, and make it much more difficult for players trying to get into PvP to do so. They would either be forced to pay a ton of money for an even half-way decent runic suit, or end up paying a ton of money and/or time making 50 imbued suits (because we all know a person trying to get into PvP will die a lot).
On a slight side note, i stillfind it interesting that people who talk about the rush of excitement they want to bring back to the game by eliminating inurance or insured items still run around with unsured suits. If it is so exciting, why not lead by example and un-insure your suit?
My reply would be --- why would it be a ton of money to build a half way decent runic suit? This is only regarding to PvP, and people would be in the same situation if they chose to use imbued suits. It's only for certain pieces typically. You can still learn to PvP in Trammel or with other friends that you trust. And maybe instead of venturing by yourself in Felluca, you will be with a party so you can overcome foes.
And I disagree that it would be more difficult to get into PvP ---
(1) Make an "ELITE IMBUED SUIT"
(2) If you are learning to PvP, try your tactics in Trammel, where there are no repercussions, you won't lose your suit, and you can practice.
(3) When you are ready to PvP, take your chances with the imbued suit, or patiently build a runic suit that you cannot lose
(4) Enjoy the riches that can be made if you defeat a foe that is using imbued items....
It's simple, really. And perhaps by having more people practicing PvP in a place like Trammel (as I mentioned, perhaps Arenas) maybe it will draw more people into PvP.
The idea behind this is "risk vs. reward" --- why should I uninsured my imbued suit when there is nothing to gain from it?
P.S --- my suit is all blessed artifacts and EM items....doesn't phase me anyways.
However, if I had the opportunity to loot other people that were using imbued items....it'd be nice.
Oh, and forgot to mention your point about losing suits when you venture into Fel ---- only wear what you are prepared to lose if it's imbued....if not, wear nothing if you are just going to die and you won't risk on losing anything.
And UO shuts down in 6 months. Real good shape there.I have read this thread, and I have to say...I think there are way too many detrimental ways the idea of not being able to insure any imbued items would have on the game.
Imbuing is the new way of crafting, and has been pointed out several different ways already, this has allowed even neophyte PvPers to try their hand at PvP.
Not allowing for insurance on all Imbued items is a poorly thought out idea and if implemented (which of course it will not be) the game would suffer.
If it was just so much fun to experience the "Thrill and Risk" of losing highly valued and tough to come by items...wouldn't someone already have done that?
Oh...wait...that's right...we already HAVE done this...and we don't anymore...for a very good reason. We Insurance for all but Cursed armor and weapons and we don't have thieves in Trammel. We didn't like losing GM made stuff much...sure didn't like losing the high end weapons or armor...
An idea (that the survival of the game in some form...even one that keeps the OP from doing what they enjoy the most) the OP chooses to ignore for the sake of the promise of looting what someone else holds dear...and maybe offer to sell the prized piece back...to maybe enhance "Community"...yeah...enhance community...that's the ticket...
Sounds like a thief to me...oh wait...the OP is a thief.
Go figure.
Motivation noted...rolleyes:...carry on.
Imbuing is the new way of crafting, and has been pointed out several different ways already, this has allowed even neophyte PvPers to try their hand at PvP.
Not allowing for insurance on all Imbued items is a poorly thought out idea and if implemented (which of course it will not be) the game would suffer.
If it was just so much fun to experience the "Thrill and Risk" of losing highly valued and tough to come by items...wouldn't someone already have done that?
Oh...wait...that's right...we already HAVE done this...and we don't anymore...for a very good reason. We Insurance for all but Cursed armor and weapons and we don't have thieves in Trammel. We didn't like losing GM made stuff much...sure didn't like losing the high end weapons or armor...
An idea (that the survival of the game in some form...even one that keeps the OP from doing what they enjoy the most) the OP chooses to ignore for the sake of the promise of looting what someone else holds dear...and maybe offer to sell the prized piece back...to maybe enhance "Community"...yeah...enhance community...that's the ticket...
Sounds like a thief to me...oh wait...the OP is a thief.
Go figure.
Motivation noted...rolleyes:...carry on.
You should note the number of subscriptions pre-Trammel. Completely different game than the no risk game that is played today.
Note the number of people that dream for a classic shard. If implemented accordingly, it would bring back the old school style of UO that most people cherish.
The truth is, people want it easy and with as little as risk possible. It's sad.
I have read this thread, and I have to say...I think there are way too many detrimental ways the idea of not being able to insure any imbued items would have on the game.
Imbuing is the new way of crafting, and has been pointed out several different ways already, this has allowed even neophyte PvPers to try their hand at PvP.
Not allowing for insurance on all Imbued items is a poorly thought out idea and if implemented (which of course it will not be) the game would suffer.
If it was just so much fun to experience the "Thrill and Risk" of losing highly valued and tough to come by items...wouldn't someone already have done that?
Oh...wait...that's right...we already HAVE done this...and we don't anymore...for a very good reason. We Insurance for all but Cursed armor and weapons and we don't have thieves in Trammel. We didn't like losing GM made stuff much...sure didn't like losing the high end weapons or armor...
An idea (that the survival of the game in some form...even one that keeps the OP from doing what they enjoy the most) the OP chooses to ignore for the sake of the promise of looting what someone else holds dear...and maybe offer to sell the prized piece back...to maybe enhance "Community"...yeah...enhance community...that's the ticket...
Sounds like a thief to me...oh wait...the OP is a thief.
Go figure.
Motivation noted...rolleyes:...carry on.
So up until imbuing, what did players do? They used these runic crafted items to build their suit....but it took an immense amount of time to build that elite and perfect suit because it was difficult to find the pieces. There are tons of artys out there now that help to assist, even still it is difficult.
Imbuing comes around and you have an easy way of building a suit (obviously it takes time, money and resources) but you can build a suit quickly and easily.
When it comes to PvP and Felluca, there is next to none when it comes to risk. Why is it that someone who is as neophyte player should have nearly the SAME equipment as a veteran that spent their times to build a suit? I think there should be a risk associated with it. You make think it is determental to it, but if you want to learn how to PvP, you still could with this implementation.
As I've already stated numerous times, if you are just a "neophyte pvper" why don't you get this elite imbued suit, and then learn someplace in Trammel as I suggest, and in the mean time, you can either take the risk in Felluca using the same suit, or build a suit, over time, that can stay with you.
PvP, no offense, is already in shambles, so is factions. I don't see much being done to improve it. I'm not saying that this is the method of completely revamping it....but it definetly changes the system in a very interesting way.
(1) Mages that run around with SC -20 MW 15% DCI weapons that essentially have 120 weapon skill defensively.
(2) Dexxers that use insane weapons, once killed, won't have them anymore unless they have a back up.
(3) Players reliant on imbued suits for skills ponts for their template
It changes the mechanics of PvP completely. People won't be complaining about mystic / mages once they keep dumping in money on those weapons if they lose 'em. Same with double hit spell bows 40 SSI bows, etc....
Brings back thievary
Brings back runic crafting
Brings back risk
Brings back a sense of adventure if you choose to partake
Brings back community
Brings back group play
Brings back actual tactics
Not everyone is a COOKIE CUTTER player....all I see is everyone copying everyone else, whether it be the suit, or the template, or whatever. Individuality is getting sucked out of the game.....
Will be a flop with gurantee! Because the old players who really like the classic shards are playing on such and this few players who like this playing osi shards will eventuelly switch see nothing on here and go back to there homeshards.
LOL Pre-Tram 90-100K and dropping. Pre-AoS 350k and climbing. Post AoS dropping. Tram saved UO AoS killed UO.
Where are all those players? There were a handfull that posted here about a Pre-Tram shard not the 100K+ you dream about.
No we just got tired of all the BAD A$$ PvPers killing our crafters. Oh you were so great of a PvPer that all you could kill was our mules. LOL
From Wikipedia for Ultima Online:
"Upon release, Ultima Online proved to be very popular, reaching 100,000 paying subscribers within six months of release, despite severe lag problems. Subscriptions continued to grow for several years, reaching a peak of some 250,000 paid accounts."
You should check your stats.
Did I ever state that there were 100k+ people dreaming about? I wouldn't put words in my mouth. I can speak for myself.
This is a vast majority of veteran players and current players that would love a classic style ruleset before Trammel. Most of them do not play due to the introduction of Trammel.
That is one example, and a poor one to support. Crafters can hang in town with guard protection and not get killed. They can find other ways to get supplies, have friends to support them when gathering resources, etc. etc.
Or, with Trammel, you don't have to even worry about it. But if you want double resources in Felluca, take the risk the associate with it.
Bad argument.
I've read through this entire thread because it's interesting but my main issue with your point of view is summed up with that statement. You keep talking about risk vs reward. But in your proposed system you won't be taking any risk.
Why aren't you proposing something like no insurance in felucca instead? Surely that levels things more and offers more risk?
This is for one character --- in which I bought 8 Item Bless Deeds for over 400+ Million. I think if you put in the investment and time to achieve this task, than you should be able to enjoy the benefits.
However, I have plenty of PvP characters that use imbued items. I'm just speaking for my thief.
If there was no insurance in Felluca....no one would go there. Spending tens of millions on items like Slither or Lavalier, primarily for PvP use, would never be used. I'm meeting it half way, where you can still insure artifacts and runic items, just not imbued.
Most PvPers, i would hope, use these artifacts, but have specific imbued items (typically jewels, weapons, and some item pieces like sleeves) --- unless they have runic. It would add a different element for certain. By removing insurance completely, no one would EVER go to Felluca.
The funny part is, pre-imbuing, this would face no one. Now everyone has the hype about imbuing and how it is essentially an EASY button to achieve a near perfect suit based on a template.
Point is, you want something quick and easy like making the perfect suit by imbuing, you should have a risk associated with it (and this is only aimed at PvPers in Felluca, not PvMers in Trammel: other players can't loot your corpse in trammel, then making it so monsters can loot your corpse, essentially, you get back to your corpse, you get your imbued items back) --- but if you invest the time on working on making a suit via runics, you should enjoy the benefits.
It's simple to grasp. People just want it to be easy. It still can be easy, but depending on the style that you play, you may lose your imbued suit when you die if you are not careful in Felluca.
Now that I've had a chance to respond to a majority of you, time to re-iterate some points:
PvP has changed drastically with imbuing. Essentially, it does make it easier for any new player to get in the field by creating a perfect suit based on their template. This is also a downfall. Now everyone essential tries to build the same type of suit, to keep a "balance" --- it shouldn't be that easy to make such a suit with no risks attached to it.
Notice how many mages are running around with those extra 120 points of skill because of imbuing? Mystic Mages would not be NEARLY as effective without them. Hence, you could see a change on how PvP is structured.
Thieves would become a new, and widely used class. Disarm thief imbued weapons....BOOM you just made some money...that is, if you can fend off a mage that doesn't kill you with spells, OR, that warrior doesn't have another backup weapon that tears you to shreds. Plus once they kill you, you just lost what you thought has been gained. A huge change to PvP style.
People that rely solely on imbued items, but tend to die in the field and do not have a back up, will be out of the battle. A choice will be made to determine if it wise to use these imbued items, make a runic suit that you can insure, or improve your skills, say by training with that imbuing suit in Trammel to hone your tactics. Or maybe you'll be careful on your tactics while in Felluca. Maybe roll with several players instead of yourself.
How about them crafters that have loads of runics stored away.....or looking to make new ones....now you are back in businesses.
Imbuers, you can still make great business by making those suits that will be practical in Trammel, or make lower end standard suits (like the days of heavy archers, full plate, or studded leather) that you can toss on vendors for a flat price. At least if someone dies, they can run back to the bank, re-equip, and get back in somehow. Maybe be lucky enough to get their imbued pieces back by overcoming a foe somehow.
Or, let's keep this game easy and risk-free.
PvP has changed drastically with imbuing. Essentially, it does make it easier for any new player to get in the field by creating a perfect suit based on their template. This is also a downfall. Now everyone essential tries to build the same type of suit, to keep a "balance" --- it shouldn't be that easy to make such a suit with no risks attached to it.
Notice how many mages are running around with those extra 120 points of skill because of imbuing? Mystic Mages would not be NEARLY as effective without them. Hence, you could see a change on how PvP is structured.
Thieves would become a new, and widely used class. Disarm thief imbued weapons....BOOM you just made some money...that is, if you can fend off a mage that doesn't kill you with spells, OR, that warrior doesn't have another backup weapon that tears you to shreds. Plus once they kill you, you just lost what you thought has been gained. A huge change to PvP style.
People that rely solely on imbued items, but tend to die in the field and do not have a back up, will be out of the battle. A choice will be made to determine if it wise to use these imbued items, make a runic suit that you can insure, or improve your skills, say by training with that imbuing suit in Trammel to hone your tactics. Or maybe you'll be careful on your tactics while in Felluca. Maybe roll with several players instead of yourself.
How about them crafters that have loads of runics stored away.....or looking to make new ones....now you are back in businesses.
Imbuers, you can still make great business by making those suits that will be practical in Trammel, or make lower end standard suits (like the days of heavy archers, full plate, or studded leather) that you can toss on vendors for a flat price. At least if someone dies, they can run back to the bank, re-equip, and get back in somehow. Maybe be lucky enough to get their imbued pieces back by overcoming a foe somehow.
Or, let's keep this game easy and risk-free.
Not a good idea. Period.
If the Dev ever got it in their heads to do so, I can guarantee whats left of UO will walk into the sun set. Oh I am not joking kiddo... Yes it would be taking UO back to year 1 on this,but you didnt work it out fully. The reason you get the player gold insurance money is that was the only way many players would step in Fel.
All it would take is for a group of the PVP'rs on Atl to loose their precious items... thats the straw that would break the camels back for UO. They are babys that would cry and scream and then quit. Millions have gone into equipment for one, just imagine the cost on all the fighters! Your talking x that by the whole group of the pvp community at large.... oi vey! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR EVER LOVING TREE????
I am adicted to UO, and your talking killing my drug..... Knock it off!!
If the Dev ever got it in their heads to do so, I can guarantee whats left of UO will walk into the sun set. Oh I am not joking kiddo... Yes it would be taking UO back to year 1 on this,but you didnt work it out fully. The reason you get the player gold insurance money is that was the only way many players would step in Fel.
All it would take is for a group of the PVP'rs on Atl to loose their precious items... thats the straw that would break the camels back for UO. They are babys that would cry and scream and then quit. Millions have gone into equipment for one, just imagine the cost on all the fighters! Your talking x that by the whole group of the pvp community at large.... oi vey! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR EVER LOVING TREE????
I am adicted to UO, and your talking killing my drug..... Knock it off!!
I thought there might be a small chance that this thread show promise, but I was sadly mistaken. Thank you for wasting my time, much appreciated.
See, still not a valid point. Up until SA, when imbuing was released, everyone played this way. Now you have the EASY button to make whatever suit you want. So would you of quit before hand because you just easily couldn't make the suit you wanted and it took TIME and EFFORT to do so? It shouldn't be easy.
It's like the people at EM programs, and all they ask for is: WHERE IS MY REWARD, WE NEED AN EVENT ITEM FOR THIS, WHERE'S THE FREEEEEEE HAND OUT SO I CAN MAKE SOME MONEY OFF OF IT.
It's a travesty.
They weren't crying before imbuing, people would just have to put more effort in the game if they want to achieve the perks. Some newb can come into the game, raise their skills, and have someone imbue them a suit that can put them on the same level as a veteran player that's been playing for YEARS upon YEARS building.....doesn't seem appropriate that someone could spend so much time one way, and then such a little time another way and achieve the same result.
Yeah, reason why people spend MILLIONS is because they want this elite suit to compete with everyone.....but if everyone is on the same page, maybe they won't invest that much money if they were going to lose it every time. Maybe they'd invest in runics....like most players did before imbuing. And it doesn't stop players for learning how to PvP when they can train in Trammel with these suits and increase their skills....or want to PvM to earn money using these suits.
Actually, i'm not killing anything....this is still just a discussion.
Imbuing is an easy, quick way for everyone, with no repercussions of the skill. Just time and money investment to make whatever you want.
Runics have been essentially shot to hell.
Monster loot is a joke. (and typically the only reason I ever killed monsters was for gold and a chance of that ideal jewel)
Still no risk when you make it so easy for players to get on the same level as veterans.
I wouldn't blame others for the decisions you choose. Live with your choices.
LOL you take a Wikipedia as your data. Some of us are still here and saw the people leaving Pre-Tram because of all the BS. People came back after Tram and more kept coming till shortly after AoS. I think you better go check your facts. UO peaked at AoS time frame not Pre-Tram as you want to think. LOL
I am all for a Clasic Shard for those that want it, but you said
This would kill UO because the majority of UO does not want a Fel only UO, we want a Clasic Shard.
Greatest strength of UO is that if you want that sort of 'risk' playstyle for yourself, you are perfectly free to have it. For yourself, and anyone else you can persuade to follow it. What you can't do is impose it on other people, you either persuade people, or fail to persuade them.
Sadly, far too often the immediate response from anyone who fails to, or can't be bothered to, persuade others is to claim those others are in some way 'wrong' in how they are enjoying themselves.....
Sadly, far too often the immediate response from anyone who fails to, or can't be bothered to, persuade others is to claim those others are in some way 'wrong' in how they are enjoying themselves.....
Sure, considering if the website cites creditable date that can be referenced at the footer.
I didn't see many people leave pre-Tram (this is me speaking personally) --- but I saw a grand majority leave because of Tram. I don't speak for everyone, but I believe that it was still constantly growing even with the intro of Trammel.
And if i'm not mistaking my words were : "You should note the number of subscriptions pre-Trammel. Completely different game than the no risk game that is played today.."
I think you should relate the context appropriately when you speak about something, as you maybe confusing what I'm saying with what you are attempting to convey.
I'm not saying that it peaked before pre-Trammel. I stated that there is a number of people that dream for a classic shard. If implemented accordingly, it would bring back the old school style of UO that most people cherish.
Yet again, pretty sure you are mis-interpretting my response. I've said things stating that "wiping out insurance completely in Felluca wouldn't be a good idea" and I said "get rid of Trammel and Insurance and we'd be in good shape" in context to someone else saying it....that is how I loved UO...but I'm also practical and know that it wouldn't work. I understand the pros and cons of Felluca and Trammel for griefing and other means, I don't agree with it personally, but I understand it.
Of course you can, being a persuasion thief, I can make people do things they wouldn't expect, and change the mechanics of a game outside the typically norm.
I'm just making a valid argument. We wouldn't be having this conversation if imbuing didn't exist....and the game would be NO DIFFERENT than how it was prior. Imbuing is useful in certain regards, but it made the game too easy for people to just jump into the field and PvP without any risk. I think there is much more that needs to be done, and this could be an interesting element. PvP would change drastically....
(1) Run the elite suits and risk the chance of lose them, but be more powerful
(2) Use runic suits, could be more powerful or less powerful based on your investment, but you'll always have it
(3) Playstyle....if you use an imbued suit and died, you are out of the battle unless you have a backup....make decisions wisely in Fel.
(4) Item reliant templates....
(5) Blah....blah....blah
I've driven valid points many of times.
Risk should not only be the choice of a player, but by the design of the game. A game that is constantly developing doesn't have modes...you can't just go from "easy" to "hard" by option. If you want things to be easier, it should have certain repercussions, and vice versa. I'm all for the imbuing to help people get started, PvM, etc.....but you want to get this awesome suit quickly and not waste the time, here's the downside.
IMAGINE THIS
SA is implemented and we hear about this skill called Imbuing. It allows you to make suits and weapons to your design, but it cannot be insured.
Pros:
-Make a suit however you want
-Little risk when in Trammel
-Cost effective
-Time is minimal compared to runics
-Get new players and old a like to design suits and get up and running
Cons:
-In Felluca, you can lose your items
-PvPing styles will change
-Running an imbued suit can be more powerful than your advisary using runic, but you run the chance of losing your suit and being out of the battle....
-Etc...etc...
Would it still be just as useful? YES.
Does it add a unique playstyle and change to PvP in Felluca. YES.
Will it allow new players and old players a-like to get into PvP. YES.
Is there risk involved in PvP and Felluca ruleset? YES.
Is there any impact to PvM or Trammel. VERY MINIMAL. (your corpse decays when you die, you lose the item....similiar to cursed items)
Hmmm....
SA is implemented and we hear about this skill called Imbuing. It allows you to make suits and weapons to your design, but it cannot be insured.
Pros:
-Make a suit however you want
-Little risk when in Trammel
-Cost effective
-Time is minimal compared to runics
-Get new players and old a like to design suits and get up and running
Cons:
-In Felluca, you can lose your items
-PvPing styles will change
-Running an imbued suit can be more powerful than your advisary using runic, but you run the chance of losing your suit and being out of the battle....
-Etc...etc...
Would it still be just as useful? YES.
Does it add a unique playstyle and change to PvP in Felluca. YES.
Will it allow new players and old players a-like to get into PvP. YES.
Is there risk involved in PvP and Felluca ruleset? YES.
Is there any impact to PvM or Trammel. VERY MINIMAL. (your corpse decays when you die, you lose the item....similiar to cursed items)
Hmmm....
And this is a great point.
I have never run a thief character. I have played since Beta, and just am not motivated to be a PK, Anti-PK, Thief...those things just didn't appeal to me at all.
Not to say there's anything wrong with that, if that is a person's cup of tea, which is what makes this such a great game...anyone can do almost whatever they want.
I enjoy PvP of course. I suck at it, and I don't mind that part. It is very exciting, and I certainly do not avoid it because it isn't fun, or I am scared, or any of that...it just doesn't suit me when I don't have a choice in the matter. Some folks love that part of early UO. I did not. Many others didn't either.
Then came Trammel. A verrrrrry poorly done "Choice" for folks like me, but a choice nonetheless. It kept my wife and me playing when we were ready to quit the game.
However...I believe that Fel should exist for the people that do enjoy the play style. I do not believe Power Scrolls should be brought to Tram.
I sure don't believe that anyone should have to play this game the way I enjoy it, because I enjoy it so much, though. Just because I enjoy a certain play style, all the people I choose to play with, so every one else should too, or they simply don't know what they're missing.
Which is what posts like the OP's bring to the table.
"You NEED to do things this way, because it is so fun...for me."
Insurance and Imbued items would have to be benefits to PvP and not detriments.
The only detriment to anyone in the scenario is to the people who enjoy killing others and looting awesome items from them. And maybe selling them back to the person...
Those folks lose when people are allowed to insure their imbued (or any other insurable) items. Since that demographic (the folks that enjoy insuring imbued items) will likely be a majority of the player base, from a logical deduction point of view, then folks that "enjoy" having nice equipment they can insure and not lose will "enjoy" the game more. And that, as Llewen stated, is very likely to help more people enjoy the game their way, especially from a PvP point of view.
And as you (Aurelius) so aptly stated, that is an often overlooked portion of what keeps people playing UO.
I certainly only play for the play style I enjoy. Everyone tends to do the same.
If that play style involved causing others grief by killing other players and taking their highly prized items, then I guess I would take up the banner in the cause ohmyGED so loudly claims to be a DAMN good idea. Not that there's anything wrong with that if a person chooses the play style of murderer or rogue for themselves.
I do not, however, see how any of those actions benefits but one person (or perhaps a guild of like minded murderers or thieves) and/or how anything like this would benefit UO overall, so I find the idea unappealing, and would vote against it.
And I agree that anyone that enjoys the adrenaline rush of potentially losing items, and wants that thrill, they have the Insurance Context menu.
That menu could even allow a graduated rise to "Full Risk Enjoyment", and I say for those that seek it, it is also part of our Sand Box Game!
ohmyGED is obviously wearing the "I Know What Fun Is - Just Drink My Kool Aid" Blinders, and it is likely nothing will change in that regard. I am pretty certain that he/she believes that Thieving somehow benefits the Greater Good of the game as well. Such is life.
But oh well...I applaud your point, albeit absolutely missed based on the response you just got.
But Applause. Nonetheless.
And this is a great point.
I have never run a thief character. I have played since Beta, and just am not motivated to be a PK, Anti-PK, Thief...those things just didn't appeal to me at all.
Not to say there's anything wrong with that, if that is a person's cup of tea, which is what makes this such a great game...anyone can do almost whatever they want.
I enjoy PvP of course. I suck at it, and I don't mind that part. It is very exciting, and I certainly do not avoid it because it isn't fun, or I am scared, or any of that...it just doesn't suit me when I don't have a choice in the matter. Some folks love that part of early UO. I did not. Many others didn't either.
Then came Trammel. A verrrrrry poorly done "Choice" for folks like me, but a choice nonetheless. It kept my wife and me playing when we were ready to quit the game.
However...I believe that Fel should exist for the people that do enjoy the play style. I do not believe Power Scrolls should be brought to Tram.
I sure don't believe that anyone should have to play this game the way I enjoy it, because I enjoy it so much, though. Just because I enjoy a certain play style, all the people I choose to play with, so every one else should too, or they simply don't know what they're missing.
Which is what posts like the OP's bring to the table.
"You NEED to do things this way, because it is so fun...for me."
Insurance and Imbued items would have to be benefits to PvP and not detriments.
The only detriment to anyone in the scenario is to the people who enjoy killing others and looting awesome items from them. And maybe selling them back to the person...
Those folks lose when people are allowed to insure their imbued (or any other insurable) items. Since that demographic (the folks that enjoy insuring imbued items) will likely be a majority of the player base, from a logical deduction point of view, then folks that "enjoy" having nice equipment they can insure and not lose will "enjoy" the game more. And that, as Llewen stated, is very likely to help more people enjoy the game their way, especially from a PvP point of view.
And as you (Aurelius) so aptly stated, that is an often overlooked portion of what keeps people playing UO.
I certainly only play for the play style I enjoy. Everyone tends to do the same.
If that play style involved causing others grief by killing other players and taking their highly prized items, then I guess I would take up the banner in the cause ohmyGED so loudly claims to be a DAMN good idea. Not that there's anything wrong with that if a person chooses the play style of murderer or rogue for themselves.
I do not, however, see how any of those actions benefits but one person (or perhaps a guild of like minded murderers or thieves) and/or how anything like this would benefit UO overall, so I find the idea unappealing, and would vote against it.
And I agree that anyone that enjoys the adrenaline rush of potentially losing items, and wants that thrill, they have the Insurance Context menu.
That menu could even allow a graduated rise to "Full Risk Enjoyment", and I say for those that seek it, it is also part of our Sand Box Game!
ohmyGED is obviously wearing the "I Know What Fun Is - Just Drink My Kool Aid" Blinders, and it is likely nothing will change in that regard. I am pretty certain that he/she believes that Thieving somehow benefits the Greater Good of the game as well. Such is life.
But oh well...I applaud your point, albeit absolutely missed based on the response you just got.
But Applause. Nonetheless.
You have a lengthy post and i'm running to a meeting, I will respond more accordingly afterwords.
Yet again, i'm not with the idea that this NEEDS to be done:
"You NEED to do things this way, because it is so fun...for me."
It's just an idea.
I'll respond with more substance soon enough.
And this is a great point.
I have never run a thief character. I have played since Beta, and just am not motivated to be a PK, Anti-PK, Thief...those things just didn't appeal to me at all.
Not to say there's anything wrong with that, if that is a person's cup of tea, which is what makes this such a great game...anyone can do almost whatever they want.
I enjoy PvP of course. I suck at it, and I don't mind that part. It is very exciting, and I certainly do not avoid it because it isn't fun, or I am scared, or any of that...it just doesn't suit me when I don't have a choice in the matter. Some folks love that part of early UO. I did not. Many others didn't either.
Then came Trammel. A verrrrrry poorly done "Choice" for folks like me, but a choice nonetheless. It kept my wife and me playing when we were ready to quit the game.
However...I believe that Fel should exist for the people that do enjoy the play style. I do not believe Power Scrolls should be brought to Tram.
I sure don't believe that anyone should have to play this game the way I enjoy it, because I enjoy it so much, though. Just because I enjoy a certain play style, all the people I choose to play with, so every one else should too, or they simply don't know what they're missing.
Which is what posts like the OP's bring to the table.
"You NEED to do things this way, because it is so fun...for me."
Insurance and Imbued items would have to be benefits to PvP and not detriments.
The only detriment to anyone in the scenario is to the people who enjoy killing others and looting awesome items from them. And maybe selling them back to the person...
Those folks lose when people are allowed to insure their imbued (or any other insurable) items. Since that demographic (the folks that enjoy insuring imbued items) will likely be a majority of the player base, from a logical deduction point of view, then folks that "enjoy" having nice equipment they can insure and not lose will "enjoy" the game more. And that, as Llewen stated, is very likely to help more people enjoy the game their way, especially from a PvP point of view.
And as you (Aurelius) so aptly stated, that is an often overlooked portion of what keeps people playing UO.
I certainly only play for the play style I enjoy. Everyone tends to do the same.
If that play style involved causing others grief by killing other players and taking their highly prized items, then I guess I would take up the banner in the cause ohmyGED so loudly claims to be a DAMN good idea. Not that there's anything wrong with that if a person chooses the play style of murderer or rogue for themselves.
I do not, however, see how any of those actions benefits but one person (or perhaps a guild of like minded murderers or thieves) and/or how anything like this would benefit UO overall, so I find the idea unappealing, and would vote against it.
And I agree that anyone that enjoys the adrenaline rush of potentially losing items, and wants that thrill, they have the Insurance Context menu.
That menu could even allow a graduated rise to "Full Risk Enjoyment", and I say for those that seek it, it is also part of our Sand Box Game!
ohmyGED is obviously wearing the "I Know What Fun Is - Just Drink My Kool Aid" Blinders, and it is likely nothing will change in that regard. I am pretty certain that he/she believes that Thieving somehow benefits the Greater Good of the game as well. Such is life.
But oh well...I applaud your point, albeit absolutely missed based on the response you just got.
But Applause. Nonetheless.
See, I agree in certain aspects, but also can tie in your argument as well. People that do not enjoy PvP or the aggressive ruleset should not have to participate if they don't want to. I'm fine with that. BUT, similar to that, taking risks endure certain rewards.
Such as powerscrolls. One major difference between Felluca and Trammel.
That's how I feel about Imbuing. I think that it has changed the balance of PvP ten-fold. Yes, it's nice for people to have the ability to build amazing suits quickly, but it also enables everyone to run the same way and same style. There is also no risk involved at all...and to have that type of advantage with no risk, is very similar to adding POWERSCROLLS TO TRAMMEL.
And this is a great point.
I have never run a thief character. I have played since Beta, and just am not motivated to be a PK, Anti-PK, Thief...those things just didn't appeal to me at all.
Not to say there's anything wrong with that, if that is a person's cup of tea, which is what makes this such a great game...anyone can do almost whatever they want.
I enjoy PvP of course. I suck at it, and I don't mind that part. It is very exciting, and I certainly do not avoid it because it isn't fun, or I am scared, or any of that...it just doesn't suit me when I don't have a choice in the matter. Some folks love that part of early UO. I did not. Many others didn't either.
Then came Trammel. A verrrrrry poorly done "Choice" for folks like me, but a choice nonetheless. It kept my wife and me playing when we were ready to quit the game.
However...I believe that Fel should exist for the people that do enjoy the play style. I do not believe Power Scrolls should be brought to Tram.
I sure don't believe that anyone should have to play this game the way I enjoy it, because I enjoy it so much, though. Just because I enjoy a certain play style, all the people I choose to play with, so every one else should too, or they simply don't know what they're missing.
Which is what posts like the OP's bring to the table.
"You NEED to do things this way, because it is so fun...for me."
Insurance and Imbued items would have to be benefits to PvP and not detriments.
The only detriment to anyone in the scenario is to the people who enjoy killing others and looting awesome items from them. And maybe selling them back to the person...
Those folks lose when people are allowed to insure their imbued (or any other insurable) items. Since that demographic (the folks that enjoy insuring imbued items) will likely be a majority of the player base, from a logical deduction point of view, then folks that "enjoy" having nice equipment they can insure and not lose will "enjoy" the game more. And that, as Llewen stated, is very likely to help more people enjoy the game their way, especially from a PvP point of view.
And as you (Aurelius) so aptly stated, that is an often overlooked portion of what keeps people playing UO.
I certainly only play for the play style I enjoy. Everyone tends to do the same.
If that play style involved causing others grief by killing other players and taking their highly prized items, then I guess I would take up the banner in the cause ohmyGED so loudly claims to be a DAMN good idea. Not that there's anything wrong with that if a person chooses the play style of murderer or rogue for themselves.
I do not, however, see how any of those actions benefits but one person (or perhaps a guild of like minded murderers or thieves) and/or how anything like this would benefit UO overall, so I find the idea unappealing, and would vote against it.
And I agree that anyone that enjoys the adrenaline rush of potentially losing items, and wants that thrill, they have the Insurance Context menu.
That menu could even allow a graduated rise to "Full Risk Enjoyment", and I say for those that seek it, it is also part of our Sand Box Game!
ohmyGED is obviously wearing the "I Know What Fun Is - Just Drink My Kool Aid" Blinders, and it is likely nothing will change in that regard. I am pretty certain that he/she believes that Thieving somehow benefits the Greater Good of the game as well. Such is life.
But oh well...I applaud your point, albeit absolutely missed based on the response you just got.
But Applause. Nonetheless.
See, I agree in certain aspects, but also can tie in your argument as well. People that do not enjoy PvP or the aggressive ruleset should not have to participate if they don't want to. I'm fine with that. BUT, similar to that, taking risks endure certain rewards.
Such as powerscrolls. One major difference between Felluca and Trammel.
That's how I feel about Imbuing. I think that it has changed the balance of PvP ten-fold. Yes, it's nice for people to have the ability to build amazing suits quickly, but it also enables everyone to run the same way and same style. There is also no risk involved at all...and to have that type of advantage with no risk, is very similar to adding POWERSCROLLS TO TRAMMEL.
The beauty of the sandbox is just that ---- it's a sandbox. You can do WHATEVER YOU WANT. The problem is, a lot of it has changed in regards to risk. There is next to none involved. By providing a change like this, although may not seemed favor for the PvP crowd in Felluca, could add some excitement and risk for certain. I'm not saying that everyone has to play that way. I'm not saying to remove insurance completely. I'm saying that if you want to quick and easy way to play, you still can, with risk. IF you invest the time to build a suit with runics to a certain specification, I say you should be able to keep it. It was happening pre-imbuing...but people complained about those who had the OVERPOWERED suits. You can still achieve those, but just risk of losing 'em. I think it achieves a fair balance...it just has it's cost / risks and time.
Unfortunately, certain risks should be a standard based on advantage and disadvantage, not optional for just those risk takers. Going into Felluca should be the risk. Certain components should have risks with it. You want to use a powerful suit via imbuing that can be easier to make and less time consuming....go for it, but you can lose it if you aren't smart.
Imbuing Items insured and used in Felluca = Gaining Powerscrolls in Trammel in my opinion. Best analogy I can use.
And this, I believe, is the truth behind your idea. You are just looking for new things to be able to steal.
And we go back to PvP being even more item based as only people able to afford either the time to get their own runics, or the money to buy runic armor pieces or the runics themselves will have excellent suits, and the rest of us will have mediocre suits.
So if they do not remove insurance for imbued items, you have no opposition to allowing 120 powerscrolls to be farmed off of trammel ruleset champ spawns? Wow!!!!
If you know anything about me, the last thing I need to do is learn how to steal other items....i'm pretty good at what I do as it is, at least when I used to practice my arts.
Go back to being item based? It is currently item based. Hence imbuing. The only difference is if you PvP. Period. If you are good and want to get out in the field, you can imbue a compareable suit running the risk of losing it. If you aren't good enough yet, train in Trammel. Simple philosophy.
I think you should take your time, read my posts, and then reply, because you are missing what is actually being said:
I said that:
Having imbued items that are insured in Felluca
IS LIKE ( = )
Being able to obtain Powerscrolls in Trammel.
What this means:
It is similar to providing the same benefit of obtain powerscrolls, but in Trammel. That is how I think using imbued items that can be insured is in Felluca. There is NO RISK.
How would you feel if powerscrolls were suddenly introduced into Trammel? What would the ultimate point of Felluca be anymore? Certainly not factions at this stage of the game.....
Case. Set. Match.
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