The Template killer

[Lefty]

Publish 46

Added PvP changes:

* Weapon special moves now require Weapon Skill and Tactics of appropriate skill levels. (i.e., 70 in each skill for primary weapon special moves, 90 in each skill for secondary weapon special moves).
o Exceptions to the Tactics requirement are the following:
+ Wrestling special moves.
+ Shadowstrike since it already requires 80 Stealth to perform.
+ Infecting Strike since it already requires Poisoning skill to be effective.
* Can no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability.

Now I know exactly how this went down. It was a 2 party decision and both focus groups were just an audience. The fact is at the time this and the other changes were already posted on the first day of the first focus group. This isn't a rant, but just stating the facts.

I am bringing this up because at the time, the only thing that was a balance issue was deathstrike. Where one would just put 120 ninjitsu on their template and have the ability to do a massive amount of damage.

Never was special moves an issue other than the previous issues with damage caps which were mostly addressed before these changes.

This change was one players view on character templates which made UO more of a class type system. It was a narrow minded decision and eliminated UO diversity on skill choice as well as what made UO UO. This is my 2 cents on this subject and I think this should be given another look.

 

[Benny Lava]

i don't mind the need to have tactics to perform prim and sec abilities.

"no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability." - that needs to be reverted, you should be able to stack the abilities.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

i don't mind the need to have tactics to perform prim and sec abilities.

"no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability." - that needs to be reverted, you should be able to stack the abilities.

so you should be able to preload casting energy bolt, set deathstrike and set infectious strike so you just click double click for three different spell type abilities to occur?

I agree the tactics things seems sort of mute to me.

 

[Grimm_of_Oceania]

I thought you needed 70 and 90 tactics already, and the fact you need 70 and 90 weapon skill, who plays with less than 120 anyways?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I thought you needed 70 and 90 tactics already, and the fact you need 70 and 90 weapon skill, who plays with less than 120 anyways?

That is a VERY old patch, so yes you need 70 and 90 currently, that patch is when they implemented those requirements. you use to only need 70 and 90 weapon skill and no tactics.

as for who plays with less that 120...well, everybody? generally 120 tactics is a waste of skill points depending on the template of course, and almost all pvpers have only 90 tact. just enough to use the specials, he is complaining because he wants to go back to the way it was, what...a number of years ago i don't recall exactly when, so that he can make his pvp template more powered by not needing 90 tactics and adding those points elsewhere. this of course is bad for balancing but I don't care to explain that part.

 

[Diomedes Artega]

The publish date was not THAT long ago. But I suppose in game years it is lol. It was August 29th, 2007.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

The publish date was not THAT long ago. But I suppose in game years it is lol. It was August 29th, 2007.

Well I just said a number of years ago =p at this point that's 2 years and 2 is a couple lol.

 

[Diomedes Artega]

I thought you needed 70 and 90 tactics already, and the fact you need 70 and 90 weapon skill, who plays with less than 120 anyways?

It created more mystery before the patch had been implemented. It was truly nice because some dexxer templates TRULY destroyed just about everything in PvP and PvM.

While some of those same templates are still effective, the difference is they used to destroy opponents. Now they are toned down some. I'm impartial to the change. While disappointed at the time, because I had some very good templates, those same templates are still effective. Just not as destruction worthy. I did mention they destroyed opponents...right?

That's pretty much why. To create "balance."

 

[Draxous]

This change was one players view on character templates which made UO more of a class type system. It was a narrow minded decision and eliminated UO diversity on skill choice as well as what made UO UO. This is my 2 cents on this subject and I think this should be given another look.

UO has a skill cap... it has always been a class type system.

Wake up.

 

[Omnius]

uhhh this change was because tank mages could out do dexers with their own weapons... there were mages running amuck killing dexxers as fast as the wod archers did.

 

[Basara]

Mage weapons couldn't use special moves, without the mage possessing 70 or 90 real skill points in a melee weapon skill.

So, it wasn't to balance that.

Frankly, they should make it to where the Tactics requirement is total skill, not real skill (while retaining the real skill requirement for the weapon skill itself). It would actually balance things a bit better, by letting some of the other teplates be competitive.

 

[UOKaiser]

I hated this change. My main character since UO came to be was the tank mage. It was fine to use 8-9 years then all of the sudden they eliminated it.
Why did the complains came after all that time. I had no choice but to split my main most used fighting character into 2 just so I can hunt the same things I've always hunted. One dexter and one mage all originating from my favorite guy, my persona in UO. Angers me till this day.
As by nerfing it I felt they nerfed my alter ego, The character that I was attached to. The only one I needed for most situations. The one that was my identity and I was known by.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Mage weapons couldn't use special moves, without the mage possessing 70 or 90 real skill points in a melee weapon skill.

So, it wasn't to balance that.

Frankly, they should make it to where the Tactics requirement is total skill, not real skill (while retaining the real skill requirement for the weapon skill itself). It would actually balance things a bit better, by letting some of the other teplates be competitive.

It balanced it because now a mage needs 90 weapon skill AND 90 tactics, before they only needed 90 weapon skill leaving them able put 90 points elsewhere. also they only needed a weapon with sc on it and then they could have 120 in the skill, giving them a much bigger array of special abilities they could pull off, such as disarm-poison-ai along with spells, or any other number of ways to go about it. as for the real skill vs jewel skill. I do not know where i stand on that matter, I think the way it is now is most likely best, but I have not put much thought into it so there could be other options that are more balancing

 

[Lefty]

uhhh this change was because tank mages could out do dexers with their own weapons... there were mages running amuck killing dexxers as fast as the wod archers did.

That is totally untrue. Tank mages were a part of UO since 98 with the explosion/flamestrike/halberd hits. In all that time there was no outcry of over powered mages. The only exception was a nerve strike mage, but with the current changes made on nerve strike this wouldn't be an issue.

Anyways this isn't just about mages and specials. This also effected many dexer templates. Many dexer templates have to drop skills such as Magic Resist. This is do to the requirement of Tactics for specials and the fact that healing and anatomy in most situations is a must.

Now the full impact of this change has yet to be felt. When SA rolls out there will be most likely 2 things that will amplify this situation.

1. The fixing of Trap Boxes
2. A slew of new spells.

Most likely dexers will have to go with the most basic of templates. This will also nerf out the existence of Samurai and Ninjas in PvP which by the way are pretty much nerfed anyways.

 

[RichDC]

To be honest i dont see the problem with tactics, a tank mage is still useable. Requires more skill but useable...more timing on the specials and spells...more TACTICS!

What i do think needs to be adressed is stat loss tactics.

Currently a char with 90tactics in factions, goes into stat loss and except for losing the DI they are 100%combat effective(well...ish need to stack weap skill). They can perform all specials even though there tactics is now below the requirement.

This needs to be addressed.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I play a ninja with resist, and i cant use specials. also my wife has a samurai with resist that does just fine in pvp. And while tank mages were a part of UO for so long, it was not until aos that they became a problem, since there were no active specials and there was no weapon you could hold while casting, so cycling spells and specials is an AOS expansion situation. I see no reason to believe SA is going to make dexxers any "less powerful" then their unkillable selves.


The difference of dexxers with out tactics is the same as mages with out eval, would you feel it was fair that mages got all the eval advantages with out having eval? The way the system is right now makes more sense than how it was before. and you can not compare UO 97 to UO today.

 

[RichDC]

I see no reason to believe SA is going to make dexxers any "less powerful" then their unkillable selves.

Agreed, i actually see it making all dexxers godly...but also making mages slightly better(from what i hear mysticism is nice).

Reason:

All dexxers are going to have max mod weaps - SSI,HLD,HLA,HCI/DCI,Hit Spell.

All mages are going to have max mod mage weaps(rather than having to pay, what 200mil?)- 20mage weap,SCnoPen,Hit spell,HLA,DCI

 

[Connor_Graham]

so you should be able to preload casting energy bolt, set deathstrike and set infectious strike so you just click double click for three different spell type abilities to occur?

Maybe not, but I don't see why we can't cast EoO, Cons Wep, DF, or some of the other Chiv spells while having LS toggled too. All this accomplished was the wasting of more mana on dexxer templates in PvM, as by the time you get the spells cast and are ready to start fighting, a good chunk of the timers has wound down, causing you to have to recast sooner than you used to be able to.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I have tried and tried, and I still for the life of me don't understand at all how these changes tried to force static "classes" instead of our traditionally flexible "templates."

This was a nerf, plain and simple. And every template gets nerfed sooner or later, because sooner or later almost every template becomes a problem. One can still play a warrior-mage, you just need an extra skill (no one complains about Eval being necessary for Magery, so why complain about Tactics being necessary for the Weapon Skills), or you need to give up specials, and use your weapon skill for defense.

(Defensive use of the weapon skills has largely been supplanted by mage weapons, but that wasn't always the case! At the very least, use of mage weapons wasn't as popular back then as it is now.)

*shrugs*

Was the tamer profession destroyed by losing the ability to control, say, 3 dragons at once? No it wasn't.

-Galen's player

 

[Kaleb]

Yah that was a pretty bad publish. i know of at least 1-2 dozen people who quit UO after that one, it killed a lot of mages that people had for years deathstrike and wod archers were all that was needed to be fixed back then.

 

[RichDC]

Quote From Charles Darwin which i feel is quite pertinent to the subject

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

Adapt Or Die

Edit: Found this one i think is appropriate too

"In the long history of humankind (and animal kind, too) those who learned to collaborate and improvise most effectively have prevailed”

 

[Lynk]

The tactics requirement change was necessary. I had a Bushido/Necro/Scribe mage and I would corpse, curse, and hold exp until a nerve hit and follow with FS/EO/PS. There were plenty of builds like mine around that were way too OP.

I do, however, agree that you should be able to toggle special moves while casting.

 

[Omnius]

That is totally untrue. Tank mages were a part of UO since 98 with the explosion/flamestrike/halberd hits. In all that time there was no outcry of over powered mages. The only exception was a nerve strike mage, but with the current changes made on nerve strike this wouldn't be an issue.

Anyways this isn't just about mages and specials. This also effected many dexer templates. Many dexer templates have to drop skills such as Magic Resist. This is do to the requirement of Tactics for specials and the fact that healing and anatomy in most situations is a must.

Now the full impact of this change has yet to be felt. When SA rolls out there will be most likely 2 things that will amplify this situation.

1. The fixing of Trap Boxes
2. A slew of new spells.

Most likely dexers will have to go with the most basic of templates. This will also nerf out the existence of Samurai and Ninjas in PvP which by the way are pretty much nerfed anyways.

Do you play UO? Look back at old posts from the time. Dexers were complaining that 90% of mages just disarmed them at any time. Anyone who played a mage even badly could kill a dexer almost instantly. It was like godmode came to town for the tank mages vs dexers. Archers were the sole exception because they could keep distance between them and the mage.

The tactics change made tank mages still viable but required a more realistic skill investment. The same was now true for absurd dexer/casters that didn't need any tactics to do ridiculous sums of damage. Again any mediocre player was able to assemble either of these ultra hybrids.

As for ninjas and samurais being obsolete. I challenge you to find a shard still not riddled with evade users, ninjas and any other kind of ninjitsu or bushido users. You won't because these skills work fine now.

change trap boxes and you kill pvp. welcome to a new age of paraganking. anyone who pvps knows this.

All this said, most of these old super hybrids are possible still. They are just not as easy to make and require much planning to assemble a viable suit for them. Visit atlantic if you want to see the old templates working because the users have the suits to do it.

 

[Turdnugget]

I wish you could toggle specials while casting still...

I miss my tank mage =/

 

[InspectorGadget]

Oh wow!!

I was just reading the SA Mysticism...If you allow perma toggle imagine this combo

explosion
flame
strike
evil omen
spell trigger with bombard
ar ignore!!

Thats...INSTA DEATH!

 

[UOKaiser]

I have tried and tried, and I still for the life of me don't understand at all how these changes tried to force static "classes" instead of our traditionally flexible "templates."

This was a nerf, plain and simple. And every template gets nerfed sooner or later, because sooner or later almost every template becomes a problem. One can still play a warrior-mage, you just need an extra skill (no one complains about Eval being necessary for Magery, so why complain about Tactics being necessary for the Weapon Skills), or you need to give up specials, and use your weapon skill for defense.

(Defensive use of the weapon skills has largely been supplanted by mage weapons, but that wasn't always the case! At the very least, use of mage weapons wasn't as popular back then as it is now.)

*shrugs*

Was the tamer profession destroyed by losing the ability to control, say, 3 dragons at once? No it wasn't.

-Galen's player

Youre right when you say everything gets nerf because they become a problem. The reason they become a problem is because something got nerfed. I always say balance up and stop nerfing. You nerf archers then mages become too powerful you nerf mages then close quarter dexters become a problem you nerf close quarter dexters and archers become a problem. So it's this endless loop.

Then the developers at the time decide to put something in to enhance the game. Which toss things out of wack cause someone forgot they nerfed all the other classes to oblivion so everyone is nerfed except the one that received the new thing. So complains come in and after everyone get used to it another nerf comes to it making that perticular template weaker than the previous ones. "The loop beggings again"

I say classes cause there is a definetly push all these years to make classes and remove the diversity. Tank mages was one of the big ones. Youre either a dexter or a mage if not then you can't compete. Difficulty being scaled up to 120 nerfing the 700 skill points to 600 skill points because almost everything worth while requires 120 skills if not you gonna need a prayer. No longer can you have a mage- herder-camper and be competitive in both pvm-pvp. No longer can you have many diverse templates that were the heart of UO. What made many people love this game. Yes it's still there but it has being reduced immensly "1 reason why people say skills doesnt matter as much as items these days."
Youre either a variation of a necro mage or necro-warrior. Variation of tamer or variation of archer. Theres others but will They even be half of effective without a main variation. It just feels less free than it used to be. Everything more restrictive on the options available.
Maybe make some skills useful again that would be nice like they did with arms lore. And give us our lost 100 points back!!!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Youre right when you say everything gets nerf because they become a problem. The reason they become a problem is because something got nerfed. I always say balance up and stop nerfing. You nerf archers then mages become too powerful you nerf mages then close quarter dexters become a problem you nerf close quarter dexters and archers become a problem. So it's this endless loop.

Then the developers at the time decide to put something in to enhance the game. Which toss things out of wack cause someone forgot they nerfed all the other classes to oblivion so everyone is nerfed except the one that received the new thing. So complains come in and after everyone get used to it another nerf comes to it making that perticular template weaker than the previous ones. "The loop beggings again"

I say classes cause there is a definetly push all these years to make classes and remove the diversity. Tank mages was one of the big ones. Youre either a dexter or a mage if not then you can't compete. Difficulty being scaled up to 120 nerfing the 700 skill points to 600 skill points because almost everything worth while requires 120 skills if not you gonna need a prayer. No longer can you have a mage- herder-camper and be competitive in both pvm-pvp. No longer can you have many diverse templates that were the heart of UO. What made many people love this game. Yes it's still there but it has being reduced immensly "1 reason why people say skills doesnt matter as much as items these days."
Youre either a variation of a necro mage or necro-warrior. Variation of tamer or variation of archer. Theres others but will They even be half of effective without a main variation. It just feels less free than it used to be. Everything more restrictive on the options available.
Maybe make some skills useful again that would be nice like they did with arms lore. And give us our lost 100 points back!!!

First of all, I don't know for sure that there aren't any warrior-mages anymore.

Do those folks running around with mage weapons count? I'd say they in some sense do.

Secondly....Even if there are no warrior-mages currently, sooner or later someone will develop a combination of skills, tactics, and items that makes them viable, or perhaps even uber, again.

Why do I say this? Because that's the way of UO. The perceived utility of skills, templates, and items goes back and forth over the years. I am 100% positive that, even without design changes, and even if there's literally no viable warrior-mages in the game currently (and I suspect there actually are), someone sooner or later will think of something, run with it, and start a trend.

Thirdly, and finally.....Remember that at least one important special move for warrior-mages, Infection Strike, still requires no Tactics.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

One more thing: How is making a template work harder to achieve its goals "killing" that template?

Is the necessity of Eval also killing mages? Arguably it is. If the effectiveness of your spells was totally dependent upon magery, think of what you could do.

-Galen's player

First of all, I don't know for sure that there aren't any warrior-mages anymore.

Do those folks running around with mage weapons count? I'd say they in some sense do.

Secondly....Even if there are no warrior-mages currently, sooner or later someone will develop a combination of skills, tactics, and items that makes them viable, or perhaps even uber, again.

Why do I say this? Because that's the way of UO. The perceived utility of skills, templates, and items goes back and forth over the years. I am 100% positive that, even without design changes, and even if there's literally no viable warrior-mages in the game currently (and I suspect there actually are), someone sooner or later will think of something, run with it, and start a trend.

Thirdly, and finally.....Remember that at least one important special move for warrior-mages, Infection Strike, still requires no Tactics.

-Galen's player

 

[UOKaiser]

First of all, I don't know for sure that there aren't any warrior-mages anymore.

Do those folks running around with mage weapons count? I'd say they in some sense do.

Secondly....Even if there are no warrior-mages currently, sooner or later someone will develop a combination of skills, tactics, and items that makes them viable, or perhaps even uber, again.

Why do I say this? Because that's the way of UO. The perceived utility of skills, templates, and items goes back and forth over the years. I am 100% positive that, even without design changes, and even if there's literally no viable warrior-mages in the game currently (and I suspect there actually are), someone sooner or later will think of something, run with it, and start a trend.

Thirdly, and finally.....Remember that at least one important special move for warrior-mages, Infection Strike, still requires no Tactics.

-Galen's player

Naw the people running with mage weapons don't count they have not enough offence to count as a tank mage. It's only for defensive purpose.
The whole Tank mage thing is that the player is just as good as with a sword as he is with a book. Not better than a pure mage and not better than a pure warrior but is still powerful enough to handle most situations. A tank mage now just doesnt have the enough offensive power to qualify without sacrificing either the mage or the warrior type part of the template to uselessness.
When someone developes a combination of skills to be viable it will be nerfed like always because people will complain like always heading back to the circle of nerfing and the war between the classes. I think maybe the most vocal people are players with just one character template in there 7 slots.

Infection strike doesnt qualify enough to help any tank mage in this day and age. Also over the years requiring dex str and int to run such a template it increased the difficulty in creating such a player. Even so it's just not viable compare to others anymore. The true tank mage is gone probably never to be seen again except between releases and nerfes.

 

[UOKaiser]

One more thing: How is making a template work harder to achieve its goals "killing" that template?

Is the necessity of Eval also killing mages? Arguably it is. If the effectiveness of your spells was totally dependent upon magery, think of what you could do.

-Galen's player

Not killing that template I don't agree with that but it does kill other templates. Needing support skills just to be able to use main skills means that you have to specialize more. Whats a mage without mage, eval and med? Whats a dex without tactics and and wep skills. Whats a necro without ss well a sampire but thats a different story. The problem is as time goes by will more support skills be needed to keep the same skill. Will anatomy and focus be required to play a dex. Will mysticism be required to play a mage.
As they add more skills in, require more support skills to keep using the same template and do not increase the cap on skills the more specialize everyone will have to be. Moving towards a undeniable class system ending in a Final fantasy part 1 game.

 

[Lynk]

I run an Archer Tank mage, though I don't rely on the archery for anything other than the occasional dismount, para shot, or mortal.

I actually went with anat as my last skill so I do 20 dmg shots and even if I'm disarmed I have no fears.

*This is used only in group pvp situations*

 

[o2bavr6]

change trap boxes and you kill pvp. welcome to a new age of paraganking. anyone who pvps knows this.

If all PvP templates had to have magic resist to compete there would be no para ganking would there?

Also Magic resist should be taken into account with Evil Omen as well as Nervestrike.

With that said, if they don't fix trapped boxes. Then trapped boxes should release every form of para including Nervestrike.

 

[o2bavr6]

The whole Tank mage thing is that the player is just as good as with a sword as he is with a book. Not better than a pure mage and not better than a pure warrior but is still powerful enough to handle most situations. A tank mage now just doesnt have the enough offensive power to qualify without sacrificing either the mage or the warrior type part of the template to uselessness

I've played a tank mage since 1997 and still do to this day.

Yes you are correct we dont do enough damage with the weapon and as for killing with magery, it is possible but most people just run away, so its more difficult to kill someone than say a necro mage.

My tank mage goes toe to toe with most dexers but still has trouble with the kill shot due to the dexers running away.

Some dexers will kill me most times, but it takes them quite a long time to do so.

Personally I don't see why I cant have a special toggled while im casting a spell as long as i have the weapon and tactics skills invested.

If anyone has questions as to who or what are the strongest templates in the game, just log onto test center and go to Yew gate. Dexers with Ninja are the number one template, even a really good necro mage has issues killing this temp. And if the necro dexer ever wins its usually due to a precast of a spell.

Mage weapons are decent, but a good dexer will just disarm spam you all while bleeding and armor ignoring you forcing the mage to run for his life.

What I see is a lot of is armor ignore then nervestrike then deathstrike followed usually by another nervestrike or AI or Conc if the deathstrike didnt kill you.

Mages can attempt to disarm but with low dex, hci and ssi you rarely get a disarm off against a dexer. In a duel you'll be lucky to get two disarms off.

Dexers assistants:
HCI, DCI, Hit Spell, MR, LMC, HLD, SSI, DI, HLA, HML, HSL, HLL, skill point bonus items, Hyru.

Mages assistants:
LRC, SDI, MR, LMC, DCI, FC, FCR, HLA (but I question this) Mage weapon, skill point bonus items.

for pure or necro mages HCI, Hit Spell, HLD, SSI, DI, HLA, HML, HSL, HLL, dont alter a battle due to the infrequency of weapon hits from low dex.

Do mages have spell like HLMR (hit lower magic resist) or HLER (hit lower elemental resists)? No they don't... why is that?

Dexers even have the ability to leech all your mana via their weapon, where a mage cant do that to a dexer who has magic resist. Again a mage with a HML weapon wont hit often enough with it to make a difference in the fight.

We havent even discussed Chiv and how a dexer can use it to its fullest with only 80 skill points invested.

I don't call this balance. balance means that every template has its Achillies heal. Ninja dexers have no Achillies heal, except when fighting each other which doesn't count.

FYI my templates Achillies heal are Necro Mages.

Edit: how cool would it be if mages could get gloves or spellbook that had WSSI (wrestle swing speed increase) on it!!

 

[Lynk]

I always thought brass knuckles or fist packs would be a cool weapon for wrestlers. Get some mods on there, something to fill up the hand besides a spellbook.

 

[Mistura]

With that said, if they don't fix trapped boxes. Then trapped boxes should release every form of para including Nervestrike.

They already do break all forms of para

 

[o2bavr6]

They already do break all forms of para

No they don't!! trapped boxes do not remove the para from a nervestrike

 

[o2bavr6]

I always thought brass knuckles or fist packs would be a cool weapon for wrestlers. Get some mods on there, something to fill up the hand besides a spellbook.

How funny would they be!! I can see it now:
Brass Knuckles of Teeth Destruction

Mana Regen 2
20% Lower Reagent Cost
50% Hit Lower Attack
+25% to disarm RNG
P10, F10, C15, P10, E10

 

[Fluffi]

Let's not kid ourselves.

This publish was bought-in solely to counter the mage gimps who were running deathstrike builds: Yet another example of EA introducing a skill which had not been properly thought-out when it was first conceived, and was "abused" by the more creative and imaginative players...

Like WoD archers.
Like no-vet tamers with a GD.
etc, etc, etc.


My tank mage never had ninja, so just needed a bit of tweaking to get the tactics requirement for her knife and cleaver, but what really pissed me off was that I had to rebuild my 8-year-old nox fencer.


I'm willing to bet that within 18 months of the gargoyle skills being introduced, there will be a nerfing publish, when it becomes apparent that the UO playerbase are better at the creative use of skills than the development team.

 

[Basara]

Naw the people running with mage weapons don't count they have not enough offence to count as a tank mage. It's only for defensive purpose.
The whole Tank mage thing is that the player is just as good as with a sword as he is with a book. Not better than a pure mage and not better than a pure warrior but is still powerful enough to handle most situations. A tank mage now just doesnt have the enough offensive power to qualify without sacrificing either the mage or the warrior type part of the template to uselessness.

You need to qualify this as "In PVP"...

I STILL do more damage with my 720-point 120 Mage/120 Eval/100 med/100 resist/100 scribe/100 tactics/80 Chivalry mage in PvM using a MAGE WEAPON BOW combined with summons over time, than any mage book, because there's less mana drain (even with my 40% LMC/100% LRC/70s suit). I tried a mana regen suit, and I still ended up completely mana drained at long fights like peerless and Ilshenar spawn bosses - and would never get looting rights at the peerless, when my 2-4 companions always did.

EoO, consecrate, mage weapon, and two EVs or earthies > constant low-level spells with no backup, or draining so much mana getting summons up that one still runs out of mana casting fireball or lightning repeatedly. If my weapon is a mana leecher, so much the better (about doubles my mana regen rate).

during the Melissa event, my mage didn't get looting rights with spells (including summons+spells); I only got the reward and the loot when I cast two EVs THEN went into MELEE with her using my swords of prosperity. In fact, I estimate I was doing about 2-3 times more dps that way than with the spells.

 

[Lefty]

Do you play UO? Look back at old posts from the time. Dexers were complaining that 90% of mages just disarmed them at any time. Anyone who played a mage even badly could kill a dexer almost instantly. It was like godmode came to town for the tank mages vs dexers. Archers were the sole exception because they could keep distance between them and the mage.

Evidently you don't play. It isn't different now. How many mages insta kill a dexer for those that can disarm? If you run a dexer you know that it boils down to stick and move. This change as far as mage vs dexer rather than balancing had a total reversal effect, putting the cards in the dexers favor. Knowing most mages cannot disarm, or their special move is bugged because of casting. This and the fact that those who run with mage weapons are soon disarmed. Not to mention the high requisits of dex needed for Parry on a mage with the total influx of archers as well as dexers.

The tactics change made tank mages still viable but required a more realistic skill investment. The same was now true for absurd dexer/casters that didn't need any tactics to do ridiculous sums of damage. Again any mediocre player was able to assemble either of these ultra hybrids.

However damage caps are in place , nerve strike as well as deathstrike were addressed. SO what would be so extreemly imbalancing if the requisites for special moves was removed? Honestly the only thing I see is the ability of more mage templates with the ability to disarm if anyone fears that, but it would open the door to more of a selection of templates.

As for ninjas and samurais being obsolete. I challenge you to find a shard still not riddled with evade users, ninjas and any other kind of ninjitsu or bushido users. You won't because these skills work fine now.

I only see a slight few overall on most shards. Those running those templates of which most likely are not running with Resist. They are hobbled in one form or the other. Pre Pub 46 you could run one of those with 6x skills which would include resist,heal, anat. You can't now, not without going 7x or 8 skill templates and be able to perform specials.

change trap boxes and you kill pvp. welcome to a new age of paraganking. anyone who pvps knows this.

Trap pouches were addressed and I am sure Trap boxes will in the near future. I was just saying the removal of such would definitely show the impact of this change and the limitation it poses.

All this said, most of these old super hybrids are possible still. They are just not as easy to make and require much planning to assemble a viable suit for them. Visit atlantic if you want to see the old templates working because the users have the suits to do it.

Let me say that many well rounded templates were nerfed by this and I will leave it at that.

 

[Sassassin]

The tactics requirement is OK.
The hiding and stealth skill check for death strike damage is NEEDED.
The breakable nerve strike is NEEDED.
The no toggle while casting is ********.

And if a dexer player knows how to move a mouse will not get insta-kill by a mage even while disarmed (unless you are a really really bad dexer AND pvping naked AND dont carry tbox AND dont use apples AND dont use bandaids AND dont have any chiv skill AND is an ELF character).

Currently mages cant kill anything that can "offscreen". There's no burst damage for a mage unless if it's a necromage WITH a precast but even for a necromage it requires a dexer to be really stupid to get caught by a full spell dump considering even 1 point of dmg will fizzle the mage and offscreen being the REAL"GODMODE" against all mages. And offscreen requires ZERO skill points and ZERO PLAYER SKILL.

 

[Lefty]

Well the most thing that bugs me currently is that my specials get bugged. Cast a spell, then try to do a special and it wont be selectable till you cast again. Not sure how to describe it. Yet on my warriors I don't have such a problem.

 

[Nystul]

Let us toggle moves while casting again!!! It made things so much more fun and allowed for better combos and stuff :*(

 

[Benny Lava]

The tactics requirement change was necessary. I had a Bushido/Necro/Scribe mage and I would corpse, curse, and hold exp until a nerve hit and follow with FS/EO/PS. There were plenty of builds like mine around that were way too OP.

I do, however, agree that you should be able to toggle special moves while casting.

yeah, i don't mind requiring 90 tactics to perform special moves, thats fine.

just bring back toggling special moves while casting!!@1!

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Do you play UO? Look back at old posts from the time. Dexers were complaining that 90% of mages just disarmed them at any time. Anyone who played a mage even badly could kill a dexer almost instantly. It was like godmode came to town for the tank mages vs dexers. Archers were the sole exception because they could keep distance between them and the mage.

Evidently you don't play. It isn't different now. How many mages insta kill a dexer for those that can disarm? If you run a dexer you know that it boils down to stick and move. This change as far as mage vs dexer rather than balancing had a total reversal effect, putting the cards in the dexers favor. Knowing most mages cannot disarm, or their special move is bugged because of casting. This and the fact that those who run with mage weapons are soon disarmed. Not to mention the high requisits of dex needed for Parry on a mage with the total influx of archers as well as dexers.

Frankly the real tank mages were the ones that could pack parry. After publish 25, that changed. Publish 43 even scaled back the dexterity penalty requirement back to how it was when publish 25 came out. I should know...my GM at that time was one of the most dominant parry mages on Atlantic.

In terms of who we are kidding here I'm not sure. Weapons/Tank mages might have been dominant against any dexxer who was blue and did not know what they were doing or weren't packing 120 weapon skill.

Quite frankly, the best melee PvP dexxer's pack 120 weapon skill. And with me packing 120 resist as well...that = mages not doing much.

I agree overall many templates were expunged. But, it is as you put it. Those same dexxers and mages have adapted. That...is the real key. Adaptation.

Other than that...I have to say that the tactics requirement won't change. I find it pretty much leveled the playing field AND it should stay in place. We dexxer's have enough weapons as it is.

 

[red sky]

This is a re-post but just to make a point: nerve strike requires 90 wep skill, 90 tactics and 120 bushido to be effective (plus nerve strike can be disrupted by a trapped box now), and the 90 wep skill, 90 tactics requirement for mages is good but the fact the no stacking fix is a complete nerf. A mage may well be better off if they just use a non spell channeling weapon and switch it on and off for specs because depending on a special to go off on someone and not being able to cast while doing so is completely ridiculous.

 

[blublub_9]

i don't mind the need to have tactics to perform prim and sec abilities.

"no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability." - that needs to be reverted, you should be able to stack the abilities.

Yes!
Specially for Chivalry spells!
Please revert back for us palladins.

 

[Sassassin]

Keep the tactics requirements and nerfed form of nerve strike but the toggle while casting should remain.

And for many who got the wrong idea about the patch being aiming towards mages please get your facts right. it was done for many things. Death Strike archer gimp? AI DS Conc Conc you die if you run you die if you dont. And DEXERS with real hiryu doing Nerve, All Kill, DS you die to DS if you run AND you die to Hiryus (and proceeding nerve strike) if you dont. Super dexer tamer with pain spike and so on. It nerfed 1 mage variation which is the nerve strike mage but nerfed MANY dexers. The patch is geared more towards dexers than mages.

Everything in that patch was great as DS requirements, nerve strike nerf nerfed literally ALL the gimp templates mentioned above.

The untoggle special crap was overkill. And it serves zero purpose but to nerf Holy Light Dexers, Necrodexers and Tank Mages and all of which wasnt overpowered in anyway shape or form (remember you cant beat them dont mean they are overpowered). It's no question that current UO PvP, a good dexer should dominate a decent mage in a 1v1 field fight. It's because mages are stripped away their only way of bursting damage without the initial precast. I know I can dominate any mage on my bushi dexer very easily, they can STOP (YES STOP) casting and try to disarm me with their zero HCI and 20 stam punches against my 60hci and 45dci swing a weapon capable to kill them outright in 2 to 3 hits. Or the mage can CAST and forget about disarming attempts... and what do I do when the mage got me on a miracle disarm? Oh I offscreen for 5 second then rearm and how hard is that?

No half way decent dexer will get insta-killed by a mage, everyone knows. If your suit is all 70s corpse proof, 40lmc using apples and tboxes and EP you really shouldnt have any issue going toe-to-toe against ANY mages other than a taming one. You have all the defenses and you have your offscreen godmode.

The toggling thing killed a LOT of mages and many dexer varients that's no way close to being overpowered. It also killed a HUGE fun factor in PvP. I mean I cant even have my AI toggled to defend myself ready while I close wound. I cant toggle a special while I try to cast conscrete weapon so the next shot is automatically the special I want. Other than fixing the "I nerved you first so you die" templates the untoggling made PvP much worse.

 

[Benny Lava]

hopefully we get a response from draconi about this...

 

[RichDC]

hopefully we get a response from draconi about this...

You wont, they will barely be looking at these boards until well after SA Thankfully. Im glad there attention is fully taken by it.

To the person above, a mage should lose 90% of the time to a dexxer. Even pre-toggle thing.

Its just natural selection. They can hit on the run, mages cant heal without allowing the dexxer to hit. It just makes sense.

Im not realy sure how allowing the toggling of specials thing is actually gna help balance things. People who use tactics mages now have learned to adapt to this change and probably play them just as well as before. Actually making them more skillful, as its more about timing than it ever has been.

I have a serious feeling that when Mysticism rolls out mages are going to be very happy, although im sure someone will cry!

Thats modern uo...CRY MORE