The Real Problem With Cheating in PvP

[Llewen]

You know...perhaps someone would give two cents if there was a point to be made here. I hate cheats as much as the next in the pvp arena. I do however think this thread is beating a dead horse. I have seen the same people repeat the same mumbo jumbo again and again, and the same people refuse to believe that they may be mistaken. So...I give up on this turd of a thread...Im packing up and moving on. If you wish to continue on with this charade...be prepared to hear the same crap again and again...broken record time!

<---- This thread

Great, you and your trolling won't be missed.

or bandaids...weps too!

Oops, couldn't help yourself could you?

 

[Llewen]

I disagree with you about chugging being a huge issue. Logitech MX revolutions mouse combined with UOA allows me to use my thumb to cure pot, heal pot, refresh, box, and apple. My thumb is ALWAYS within 1/4 inch of ALL of those functions, so I can be *ready* for a cure the moment I see the other player casting poison...I can apple at a moments notice...and I can box myself pretty darned good too. I will happily demonstrate for you too, and take SS with full taskbar to prove I am not cheating.

You know...perhaps someone would give two cents if there was a point to be made here. I hate cheats as much as the next in the pvp arena. I do however think this thread is beating a dead horse.

See Mr. Cowboy, I'm guessing your whole problem with this thread is that no one took you seriously enough in your first post, and somehow you feel like you are being accused of cheating. It seems that when I use the phrase "godly pvp'rs" you assume I must be talking about you.

I don't know who you are in game, I don't know what shard you play on, and I don't care to know. This thread isn't personal, I'm not targetting anyone. I find the inherent ego issues behind your assumptions fairly funny to be honest.

And then, speaking of ego, you accused me in one of your deleted posts of not addressing the valid points that have been made. Ok, I'm probably guilty as charged, at least when it comes to not addressing every point that has been made, whether they are valid or not.

There are could be several possible reasons for this:

1. I don't feel qualified to respond to the point being made.
2. I didn't feel the point merited a response.
3. The only possible response would eventually boil down to, "Yes you did! No I didn't!" or "Is not! Is too!" And I have no interest in reducing my posts to that level.
4. I already addressed the point in an earlier post and I don't feel like repeating myself.
5. I missed something. Yes it's true, I do make mistakes, and sometimes I skim as opposed to reading carefully, so yes, I do on occasion miss valid points that are made. I beg your forgiveness.

And now we return to the ego issue. In your first post you made some statements. Basically you disagreed with me, and explained in a round about way why you did. Others have accused me of offering no proof, well neither did you, and neither did they. A forum doesn't allow for the posting of proof that can be accepted at face value. Even screen shots and videos can be edited and taken out of context.

So the question becomes, should I just accept what you post, because you, THE Restroom Cowboy posted it? And if you, THE Restroom Cowboy posted it, it MUST be true? I could have responded to your post, and I did respond to points you made in your post more than once, but for the most part it would have devolved again to, "Did too! Did not!", and I'm not interested in that kind of discussion.

I understand what you and others who have disagreed with me have posted, but based on my own experience, and what I have seen in game, I disagree with it, and it is going to take more than you making some kind of divine decree to change my mind. I have done my best to explain my statements, and whether I succeed or not, is out of my hands.

And then there is always the chance that I could be wrong, and that is another reason why I am not going to get into a, "Did too! Did not!" argument with you. I have read what you said, I will think about it, and who knows, maybe someday I will see that you are right. I don't think that will happen, but you never know, it might.

And finally, beyond all that. No one is accusing you of anything. You may think you are one of the "godly pvp'rs" that I am referring to, but I can assure you, even if you are, I am not accusing anyone specifically of anything, because I don't know.

Which leads back again to the fact that this isn't a problem that is going to be solved by anyone other than the devs. They are the only ones who have the resources necessary to affect any kind of a solution to this problem. All I can do is what I have done in this thread, which is, attempt to point out that there is indeed a problem, and why I think the way I do.

And let us all hope and pray this is the last wall of text I feel the need to post on this topic...

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

And you talk about "proof". Well the only ones who can supply that proof are the devs, and the only way they can do it is with third party cheat detection functionality, like that provided with Punk Buster. And if they aren't going to use something like Punk Buster, they need to create that functionality themselves.

Let them impliment punkbuster, then when people continue to be able to do the same stuff would you continue to call them cheaters? Or would you feel as if no one could cheat any longer? Seriously this whole thread is pointless. Even if the Developers do do "something" you will still be back here the very next day talking about how it "didn't work".

Edit: On a side note are the people who are saying "I'm just that good" trying to say everyone is just that good? I know the difference between a good player and a person cheating, not that I am accusing any of the people in here of cheating, in fact I have not accused anyone of cheating in about a year. I have been told people are cheating in the past 6 months but since I moved my internet is not as good as it use to be so I ping a little higher and won't be accusing people of speeding cuase everyone looks fast to me. Went off on a tagent sorry....Point is EVERYONE is not "that good" in fact I would be willing to wager that maybe 10% of the community is "that good" maybe even less. Hell I am not even sure I would place myself in that 10% and I have been here since the begining.

So I repeat my question, those saying that "People can do that" are you really suggesting that everyone is just so good? You have never once seen a person cheat? Never thought maybe they were cheating? I admit some people are that good but again maybe 10% and thats a big maybe for me.

 

[Llewen]

Even if the Developers do do "something" you will still be back here the very next day talking about how it "didn't work".

You would be foolish to assume anything about what I might or might not do when you clearly have no clue.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

You would be foolish to assume anything about what I might or might not do when you clearly have no clue.

I never assumed, I at first asked you personally a question and then made a statement, "you" is an interchangable word in english you may not want to take everything personally. I used "you" to shorten "all the people who complain" see? Much faster to type "you", I suppose I could have sperated the two with a new paragraph but oh well laziness is evil.

You still didn't answer tho.

 

[Llewen]

Let them impliment punkbuster, then when people continue to be able to do the same stuff would you continue to call them cheaters? Or would you feel as if no one could cheat any longer? Seriously this whole thread is pointless. Even if the Developers do do "something" you will still be back here the very next day talking about how it "didn't work".

I never assumed, I at first asked you personally a question and then made a statement, "you" is an interchangable word in english you may not want to take everything personally. I used "you" to shorten "all the people who complain" see? Much faster to type "you", I suppose I could have sperated the two with a new paragraph but oh well laziness is evil.

You still didn't answer tho.

Given that you first quoted me, and then used the word "you", I think my confusion confusion was understandable...

As for your question, I assume you meant this one:

Punk Buster wouldn't have magically solved all of UO's problems with cheating, and if they create their own in-house solution, it won't either, but it would have drastically reduced the level of cheating going on, both in the economy, and in pvp.

Hard core hackers and cheaters will always be with us, and they will always find a way to get around anti-cheat functionality, but in online games the majority of those who use cheats when there is no detection and no enforcement of the TOS are not what you would typically call "hard core" hackers and cheaters.

The vast majority of cheaters in a situation like that are casual cheaters, and cheaters of opportunity, and I am certain that is the case in UO today. The vast majority of those who are using third party cheats in UO are doing so because it is ridiculously easy to obtain and use those cheats, they are effective, and there are no consequences for using them.

Punk Buster, if it had been implemented properly, would have virtually eliminated the casual cheating in UO.

And of course it wouldn't end all the accusations of cheating, for many people accusations of cheating are a simple statement of anger over being beaten, but it would hopefully at least reduce them.

 

[Llewen]

Just thought I'd add after my experiences this week I am more convinced than ever that the real problem in pvp isn't speed hacking, it is health scripts.

There is one player on my shard that is almost impossible to beat. I've seen him dismounted, with a dozen characters trying to kill him, and he will survive. I've never been able to kill him one on one since I came back a few months ago, until, oddly enough, the day that the client was patched for publish 65. I attacked him and he died in less than two seconds.

Ok, that might have been just bad luck. I went away, came back and he had died again, so it wasn't just bad luck. And he wasn't having a hard time because UOA was down, because the publish 65 patch didn't break UOA.

Now today I met him again, and he killed me three times in a row. Go figure. He survived a gank attempt when he was dismounted with a rune beetle, a nightmare, and a greater dragon on him.

The third party app detection can't come soon enough...

 

[Zosimus]

I have said this again and again. Ok person A is playing on a 7 year old computer and person B is playing on a 2 day old computer. Person A may have the disadvanatge because of the hardware that person B has.

Also it depends on each persons type of net connection they have , dial up, cable, and dsl. Video cards come into play where in the enhanced client the newer video cards would love it because of the 3d capabalities where in 2d it doesnt factor much.

Location of Person B may be closer to the shard versus Person A which may live farther away. So we all have to take in some of those variations. There is ways to speed up your computer to make them use less ram, speed up your router to get max net usage.

So the above also factors in when complaints of when one is faster then another. Im not saying people dont use speed programs I know they do but sometimes its not and people still get accused. I know when somebody is using a speed program and cranks it up. It lags me up so bad and client crashes me. If you knew my beast of a gaming computer and net speed it blow ya mind that it would but it does. Funny I can play another game be in mid battle with 2000 to 5000 people with higher graphic, ram, and proccesing speed requirements and never crash or get lagged up.

 

[Zosimus]

Might as well add since I see this argument in general chat everyday we know these issues exist in the game. We still play the game. Until EA/Mythic does something about it we still deal with it. The accusations are like children pointing fingers he did it. No she did it. I didnt do it. So on and so on this goes on every day in general chat. If it is such an issue and WE all KNOW the issues with PvP either deal with it until they fix it or do not go into fel. I die to cheats but big deal. I also have killed the same guys that cheats. To see the endless arguments in general chat makes me wish the devs didnt even add general chat. If I had to put people on ignore I couldnt play because I be that busy putting people on ignore QQ'n over dieing.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Great, you and your trolling won't be missed.



Oops, couldn't help yourself could you?

Pardon me, but posting to inform and posting to annoy are two different things. Perhaps you are simply annoyed by my posts because you do not wish to *hear* the truth, or maybe you already know it an would rather just complain about things that are invalid. Regardless, you are poorly informed and unwilling to even remain open about what does or does not happen.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

See Mr. Cowboy, I'm guessing your whole problem with this thread is that no one took you seriously enough in your first post, and somehow you feel like you are being accused of cheating. It seems that when I use the phrase "godly pvp'rs" you assume I must be talking about you.

First, most know I do not cheat. I have been a big anti cheat fanatic since returning to pvp. Second, I suck at pvp...so there is no reason I would give two cents about what you thought of my pvpenis.

I don't know who you are in game, I don't know what shard you play on, and I don't care to know. This thread isn't personal, I'm not targetting anyone. I find the inherent ego issues behind your assumptions fairly funny to be honest.

Dont care...not targetting? You would rather insult then face fact. Nothing personal about that huh? and what ego?

And then, speaking of ego, you accused me in one of your deleted posts of not addressing the valid points that have been made. Ok, I'm probably guilty as charged, at least when it comes to not addressing every point that has been made, whether they are valid or not.

Oh you mean where you sent me a dirty PM because you were all butthurt with my responses...mmk yeah...I have an ego for trying to set you straight. rolleyes:

And now we return to the ego issue. In your first post you made some statements. Basically you disagreed with me, and explained in a round about way why you did. Others have accused me of offering no proof, well neither did you, and neither did they. A forum doesn't allow for the posting of proof that can be accepted at face value. Even screen shots and videos can be edited and taken out of context.

I provided you with my thoughts, then gave you reasons why what I said was correct. I didnt beat around the bush about anything...and nothing I said reeked of ego. I even pointed out my mouse to you, so that you could possibly find out for yourself what gave me the edge. However instead of even responding to that or looking into it, you make unpersonal personal attacks regarding my ego.

So the question becomes, should I just accept what you post, because you, THE Restroom Cowboy posted it? And if you, THE Restroom Cowboy posted it, it MUST be true? I could have responded to your post, and I did respond to points you made in your post more than once, but for the most part it would have devolved again to, "Did too! Did not!", and I'm not interested in that kind of discussion.

Uh, I gave you sound reasoning as to why I said you were wrong...and provided evidence as far as what could be accomplished with a very good mouse. Again, rather than even acknowledge the information presented...you ramble on like an babbling buffoon.

I understand what you and others who have disagreed with me have posted, but based on my own experience, and what I have seen in game, I disagree with it, and it is going to take more than you making some kind of divine decree to change my mind. I have done my best to explain my statements, and whether I succeed or not, is out of my hands.

No...you don't get it at all, if you did I would not be responding now. Again, stop being such a stubborn person and think.

And then there is always the chance that I could be wrong, and that is another reason why I am not going to get into a, "Did too! Did not!" argument with you. I have read what you said, I will think about it, and who knows, maybe someday I will see that you are right. I don't think that will happen, but you never know, it might.

Speaking of ego...

And finally, beyond all that. No one is accusing you of anything. You may think you are one of the "godly pvp'rs" that I am referring to, but I can assure you, even if you are, I am not accusing anyone specifically of anything, because I don't know.

I never said you were accusing me of anything. I only came here to try and help you *see the light*...nothing more. Yes, you really dont know.

And let us all hope and pray this is the last wall of text I feel the need to post on this topic...

Personally I think you just like to see your own wall of text...to hell with it being logical.

 

[Llewen]

*a bunch of stuff*

What the hell did any of that have to do with my post today? I'm making it my mission to remind the devs about this issue and not let them think it has been forgotten. You say you suck at pvp, but somehow you are qualified to pass judgment on my ability to know when someone is cheating and someone isn't?

I haven't named any names here, and I'm not going to, my last post was simply to add that I have had my thesis in this thread confirmed. I think that speed hacking is pretty much mythological. As I posted further up, I have yet to see anyone run faster than I do since I came back a few months ago except when I know I was being affected by lag. And I know I don't use speed hacks.

Health scripts are an entirely different matter. Let me share the evidence I have against this specific person I was posting about in my last post. I'm not going to name names, I'm simply going to present the evidence I have against this person.

1. He carries an insane number of pots of all kinds, probably well over two hundred. By itself that isn't evidence of anything, but if you were running health scripts, those are the kinds of numbers you would have to carry because I expect that any script that auto chugs pots will go through them very fast.

2. He is insanely hard to kill. As I said, I have had him dismounted, with a rune beetle and a mare on him (and these are my pets, I know how they fight and how hard they hit, they are exceptionally good pets, and they are fully trained), plus at least six other people on him all experienced pvp'rs on mounts, and he has survived. That by itself isn't evidence, maybe he really is just that good.

3. The day of the patch for publish 65 suddenly he is easy to kill. Extremely easy to kill. I kill him in under two seconds, on my own, with no one else adding damage, and he dies shortly after that to three or four relatively unexperienced pvp'rs, and at that time I wasn't in factions so he wasn't in stat loss. It also wasn't because UOA was broken, because the patch for publish 65 didn't break UOA, but it did break the program which shall not be named and I know because I checked the website.

Then I run into him today and he is once again, his normal impossible to kill self. Rather a coincidence that the program that shall not be named which allows the running of those health scripts is running again.

When you add all those together, in my opinion each one of them could be explained away, but all three together constitute what is in my mind, guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Not only that but I also had an interesting conversation with a friend that day. We were talking about this guy, about this very subject, and he agreed with me and told me that, incidentally, he used to use health scripts back when I knew him a few years back. And I already knew this, because he was extremely hard to kill in exactly the same way as this other guy is.

I don't care how good you are, you don't survive a gank, dismounted, with a beetle and a mare on you, plus at least six other mounted, experienced pvp'rs, with no one healing you, unless you are getting some kind of help some other way. And it wasn't as if I sic'd my babies on him and he was a full screen away. They were right on top of him.

I'll just repeat myself. The real issue today in pvp isn't speed hacks, it is scripts of all kinds, and especially health scripts.

 

[Llewen]

And I'll just add one more thing. There was one very good pvp'r that was playing the day of the patch, who has said very clearly that he doesn't cheat. I happen to like this guy, I see him operate and he is clearly skilled, and he is smart. Well guess what, the day of the patch he was just as effective and hard to kill as he ever is. And to be honest that made me happy. I like it when honest people are proven honest.

And he has beaten me more than once, because he is skilled and smart, and I don't mind that at all, and I'm not ashamed to say he is a better pvp'r than I am, and probably better than I will ever be. However, I will also say that as skilled and smart as he is, and as hard as he is to kill, he is not impossible to kill like the other guy I was posting about in my last two posts. There is a difference between those two, and it is clear when you have as much experience pvp'ing as I do...

 

[Vertex]

And I'll just add one more thing. There was one very good pvp'r that was playing the day of the patch, who has said very clearly that he doesn't cheat. I happen to like this guy, I see him operate and he is clearly skilled, and he is smart. Well guess what, the day of the patch he was just as effective and hard to kill as he ever is. And to be honest that made me happy. I like it when honest people are proven honest.

And he has beaten me more than once, because he is skilled and smart, and I don't mind that at all, and I'm not ashamed to say he is a better pvp'r than I am, and probably better than I will ever be. However, I will also say that as skilled and smart as he is, and as hard as he is to kill, he is not impossible to kill like the other guy I was posting about in my last two posts. There is a difference between those two, and it is clear when you have as much experience pvp'ing as I do...

If you can't kill a dismounted character 1 on 1 -- that is fairly normal.

With today's templates and imbued items, a player playing defensively isn't all that easy to kill.


If you can't kill a dismounted character when he is being ganked, well, to be frank, that is a timing and teamwork issue.

Killing anyone is all about teamwork and synchronizing your attacks. What script can save you through a slew of well-timed flamestrikes and Armor Ignores?


Healing pots have a timer. Ditto for Enchanted Apples.

No matter how awesome a "script" is, they surely can't bypass this particular game mechanic.


If cure pots is the concern -- don't poison them. It's a waste of a spell delay.



The issue, in my opinion is STILL speedhacking. In my scenario above, a "scripter" can be killed.

But a speedhacker? You can't kill what you can't catch.

 

[ATLPvPer]

This is an issue with dexxers, I agree.

All a healing or instant cure script will do for mages is screw up their timing and casting.

Archers and dexxers, they do not need to toggle anything other than a couple of specials, so these scripts are crucial for them. Also the pot-throwing scripts with machine gun archery bows make it very unbalanced against an honest mage.
I hope this patch comes through in regards to explo-pots, I really do. One step at a time.

 

[chad]

There are no scripts to make people better players. Human reaction and judgment is far greater than any script can ever be.

There are no cheats in UO that offer an advantage in PvP aside from speed programs...which are hardly an issue.

If you think there are, you're definitely bad and should stick to your Lady Mels.

 

[chad]

I have said this again and again. Ok person A is playing on a 7 year old computer and person B is playing on a 2 day old computer. Person A may have the disadvanatge because of the hardware that person B has.

Also it depends on each persons type of net connection they have , dial up, cable, and dsl. Video cards come into play where in the enhanced client the newer video cards would love it because of the 3d capabalities where in 2d it doesnt factor much.

Location of Person B may be closer to the shard versus Person A which may live farther away. So we all have to take in some of those variations. There is ways to speed up your computer to make them use less ram, speed up your router to get max net usage.

So the above also factors in when complaints of when one is faster then another. Im not saying people dont use speed programs I know they do but sometimes its not and people still get accused. I know when somebody is using a speed program and cranks it up. It lags me up so bad and client crashes me. If you knew my beast of a gaming computer and net speed it blow ya mind that it would but it does. Funny I can play another game be in mid battle with 2000 to 5000 people with higher graphic, ram, and proccesing speed requirements and never crash or get lagged up.

So someone running a program 500+ miles away from you...causes you to crash? That's one of the most idiotic statements I've ever heard.

You crash because UO is buggy as all hell. You lag more than likely due to server lag..which causes EVERYONE to lag. Or maybe your computer isn't as good as you say. Regardless, no one is causing these issues for you by running "hacks."

 

[popps]

You know...perhaps someone would give two cents if there was a point to be made here. I hate cheats as much as the next in the pvp arena. I do however think this thread is beating a dead horse. I have seen the same people repeat the same mumbo jumbo again and again, and the same people refuse to believe that they may be mistaken. So...I give up on this turd of a thread...Im packing up and moving on. If you wish to continue on with this charade...be prepared to hear the same crap again and again...broken record time!

<---- This thread

Because perhaps it was about time that all this cheating in UO was made no longer possible ??

Of course it sounds old, how many years have many players been begging that cheats in UO were fixed ?

That scripting was made no longer possible ?

That hacking was stopped for good ?

How many years ??

Yet, we are still waiting............

Nonetheless, even if it sounds old and it is the same old lamentation I think players need to keep expressing their disappointment because it is freaking unbelievable, IMHO, that after so many many years we are still here discussing this issue.

And if we are, this can only show that the issue was not fixed.

And I think it should, once and for all.

 

[Lynk]

I counted a total of 8 people that have posted in this thread that have the needed experience to talk about cheating in PvP.

Speedhacking is a problem. It gives a noticeable boost in mobility.

Hacking the client to make certain objects passable is a problem.

Scripting in PvP for survival is a problem, but the least of my concerns. Want to know how to break a scripter? It only takes two people. One of you cast paralyze, one of you cast poison. Make sure both spells hit at the same time. Either the medic script will get stuck on the event macro 17 trying to chug acure, or it will get stuck trying to pop the box.

The point is this. Any PvP script can be broken if you know how it works. If you play against Chad, Cardell, or any of the other people that have any right to post in this thread you can't screw them up by tricking a program.

Not to say none of the 8 people use the client mods and the speedhacks, because they probably do. Scripting is the least of the PvP problem.

 

[Vyal]

weaken poison stops scripts from working.

Just fyi & if your biggest concern is that then ahhhhh you don't know anything about cheating or pvp...

 

[Splup]

Heya,

Speedhacking is a real problem. It's a real problem for us who use Classic Client. If someone is faster then em cause he's using EC client I don't care, I have many advantages in my CC compared to EC.

Healthscripts? Gimme a break... Those are not to be trusted and people end up dying cause of trusting em as often as they survive cause of em. The ones who really survive "everytime" and get pots timed right always are the ones who are doing it manually and know what they are doing.

Speedhack, fieldhack and running over objects are the real problems.

 

[Llewen]

This is an issue with dexxers, I agree.

All a healing or instant cure script will do for mages is screw up their timing and casting.

Archers and dexxers, they do not need to toggle anything other than a couple of specials, so these scripts are crucial for them. Also the pot-throwing scripts with machine gun archery bows make it very unbalanced against an honest mage.
I hope this patch comes through in regards to explo-pots, I really do. One step at a time.

And here is someone who knows what they are talking about, and isn't trying to deliberately obscure the issue. It is true, the characters I have noticed using health scripts are primarily dexxers and archers. I've noticed ninjas using them as well with what I expect are smoke bomb scripts (I could be wrong about that though, that's just a hunch).

I haven't noticed mages using scripts, and it makes sense that they would only screw up their timing, but I also have yet to meet a mage that fell into the category of "impossible to kill" in the same way as certain archers and dexxers.

I'll repeat myself, speedhacking is, for the most part, a myth. My guess is it only allows you to move at the maximum speed the client and/or server will allow. A few years ago this would have been an issue because most people didn't have the connection or the hardware to allow movement at the maximum allowable speed. This is no longer the case. Between new computers and very reliable and fast broadband service, most pvp'rs are moving at the maximum speed the client and/or server will allow, whether they are using a "speedhack" or not.

I get the feeling that at least some of the people poo pooing what I am saying in this thread are deliberately trying to obscure this issue. The rest probably play mages and don't realize how big an advantage health scripts give to dexxers and archers, or simply don't know what they are talking about.

This is a real issue. I'm not making this up, and regardless of what has been posted in this thread, I know what I am talking about. I have at least three years of pretty hard core experience in pvp in UO, and I have talked to a lot of people about this issue, and listened in on a lot of conversations.

I also have at least six years of operating servers for other games and during that time have been either an active participant, or an active observer, in the anti-cheat community for those games. I've done enough scripting of my own as part of my server and web hosting, and in working with scripts others have written, to have some idea how scripts work, and what is possible.

 

[Zosimus]

So someone running a program 500+ miles away from you...causes you to crash? That's one of the most idiotic statements I've ever heard.

You crash because UO is buggy as all hell. You lag more than likely due to server lag..which causes EVERYONE to lag. Or maybe your computer isn't as good as you say. Regardless, no one is causing these issues for you by running "hacks."

I expect to hear that from someone that would use such a program. That is their argument. Have a guild of them that uses speeder against you and see if your client crashes or not. I can fight any other guild and no issues just one particular guild and bam I crash everytime. Now explain the coincidence it's just the server and UO lag compared to the one guild that is jumping all over my screen before the client goes. Sorry bud I ping to baja on an average of 22 ping and catskils 12 average. Funny I can be out running this guild and when they decide to crank it up I dont even see the gank just grey screen and then the client goes down. I dont bloody lag or I be dieing like that all the time to everybody. You seem to forget that they may be closer to the server then I so add that with speeder and bam they are flying. Im east caost and play mainly on a west coast shard. Like I said I play other games with 100 times the population ( Not WoW thank god) and huge epic battles and I dont lag or have crashes. Its not UO lag its the speed hacks.

 

[Llewen]

Speedhacking is a real problem. It's a real problem for us who use Classic Client. If someone is faster then em cause he's using EC client I don't care, I have many advantages in my CC compared to EC.

Speedhack, fieldhack and running over objects are the real problems.

There is a real issue with movement rates with regard to the differences between the enhanced and classic clients. With the EC there are no tombstones and you can run right through them, and you can move at maximum allowable speed, and run through objects in any direction without getting stuck. This isn't a cheating issue, but it does need to be looked at. The enhanced client shouldn't give you a movement advantage the way it does.

I also agree that characters running through objects is a real issue as well, and while I haven't specifically noticed people running through fields if this happens then obviously it is a real issue as well, but it isn't the same thing as the "speed hacking" that I see so many complaining about.

 

[Cetric]

I'll repeat myself, speedhacking is, for the most part, a myth.

You are an idiot.. that is all i have to say. It is ******** comments like this that have made devs think twice about their being a real problem in the game for years. This and the random people that cry hacks when someone does something they do not understand.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

So someone running a program 500+ miles away from you...causes you to crash? That's one of the most idiotic statements I've ever heard.

You crash because UO is buggy as all hell. You lag more than likely due to server lag..which causes EVERYONE to lag. Or maybe your computer isn't as good as you say. Regardless, no one is causing these issues for you by running "hacks."

The interruption in the packets could cause you to lag and eventually crash....Or an unexpected change in the data stream....Or a few other things that can happen while a person is speed hacking, of course these could also be caused intentionally with out a speed hack, but still it can happen. Not that you are wrong, since it is party from UO's coding that enables this but not wholly.

I have only ever once or twice experienced such a situation where it was another person causing my lag/crashing. For the most part this does not happen, since it is not normal for the data stream to change, nor for the packets to be interrupted.

 

[Llewen]

I expect to hear that from someone that would use such a program. That is their argument. Have a guild of them that uses speeder against you and see if your client crashes or not. I can fight any other guild and no issues just one particular guild and bam I crash everytime. Now explain the coincidence it's just the server and UO lag compared to the one guild that is jumping all over my screen before the client goes. Sorry bud I ping to baja on an average of 22 ping and catskils 12 average. Funny I can be out running this guild and when they decide to crank it up I dont even see the gank just grey screen and then the client goes down. I dont bloody lag or I be dieing like that all the time to everybody. You seem to forget that they may be closer to the server then I so add that with speeder and bam they are flying. Im east caost and play mainly on a west coast shard. Like I said I play other games with 100 times the population ( Not WoW thank god) and huge epic battles and I dont lag or have crashes. Its not UO lag its the speed hacks.

It sounds to me as though the issues isn't "speed hacking" per se, the issue in this case is packet flooding. I very much doubt that in this case they are moving any faster than the maximum allowable client/server speed, but if they are using software that floods the server, I can see how it could cause others who aren't doing the same thing in their vicinity to lag and crash.

 

[Llewen]

Want to know how to break a scripter? It only takes two people. One of you cast paralyze, one of you cast poison. Make sure both spells hit at the same time. Either the medic script will get stuck on the event macro 17 trying to chug acure, or it will get stuck trying to pop the box.

weaken poison stops scripts from working.

Those are code problems with a specific script. Those can be fixed. If you think there aren't versions out there with fixes for those specific issues, you are naive. You are either naive, or something else, and we won't get into that here...

 

[Kaleb]

The issues is not so much with scripts, Sure some help but some will and can get you killed. Using a pot script to take care of every pot, (while totally worthless to mages) though some do it, is not totally wise, A lot of the Script's that are being used are trap box, anti dismount, and maybe a heal pot @ 30%. Any real PvP'er who has been in any real PvP guild are either blind or so full of BS if they have not seen guild members who script/share scripts on the guild forums.

People who use Scripts in PvP are really a small percentage, there are so many thing's EA has released that set on hot keys w/UOA and proper hardware(keyboard/mouse) that can make a Skilled PvPer seem like they may be running a script I have a UOA macro that is set to eat a orange petal every 4-5 min's and it does the process 50x (use item type,pause xxxxx, repeat). I have hot keys set to auto target myself when I cast mini heal, cure's, buffs, I have hot keys set for every pot I use, apple, trap box. Its isnt really anything new, there are A lot of PvPers like me who been around since the late 90's who has had UOA since day 1,

I get accused all the time but I dont care, I know the truth and if EA gets their program finished it will come out then and nothing on my side will change.

Speed hacks do exist, The EC does not allow someone on foot to run faster than someone mounted in the Classic client, and again a lot of PvP guilds post the link to DL the app in their forums.

The biggest problem is Client Hacks, Too often i see people running through items that should block be it static or not, I have seen too many times someone casting a FS while at a full on run, too many SS of clients with tree stumps.

My point is don't accuse all PvPers of running scripts, Some just have the experience to where PvP offense/defense judgment/macro's timing becomes like 2nd nature. Scripting on the PvM front is more rampant than in PvP.

 

[Llewen]

People who use Scripts in PvP are really a small percentage...

You're right, there are only a few that I can think of that I would say use them, the problem is that they are dominant. They are, without a doubt, the hardest people for me personally to kill. Now I may be wrong about them, that is always a possibility, but I don't think I am.

The biggest problem is Client Hacks, Too often i see people running through items that should block be it static or not, I have seen too many times someone casting a FS while at a full on run, too many SS of clients with tree stumps.

Well, I guess it is a matter of perception. I know that there is a good chance that a majority of the serious pvp'rs are using the infamous stump hack, and there are other hacks that are serious problems, but from my perspective the only ones I find almost impossible to kill are those using health scripts.

My point is don't accuse all PvPers of running scripts, Some just have the experience to where PvP offense/defense judgment/macro's timing becomes like 2nd nature. Scripting on the PvM front is more rampant than in PvP.

I know all pvp'rs aren't running scripts or hacks, but I expect an awful lot of them are, even quite a few that they don't seem to be helping. But there are two problems here. It is very rarely that a cheater will admit to cheating, and even if they do, they most often won't admit to the full extent of their cheating. So when someone tells you they aren't cheating, unfortunately their word is worthless, unless they are someone whose honesty you can vouch for, and even then...

The second problem is that the cheaters frequent these forums, and they will do everything in their power to obscure the real issues and sabotage the debate. They don't want people talking about the real problems, and they certainly don't want us discussing the cheats that they themselves are using. I'm not accusing anyone specifically in this thread of anything, but there is a really good chance that at least one or two of those that are ridiculing what I have posted here are trying to deflect attention from what they themselves do.

A few have posted here about speed hacking, and about others causing them to lag out and crash. I'm not saying they are lying, all I am saying is that I myself haven't seen those things. I haven't seen anyone moving faster than I do, and I have never had the experience of lagging out and crashing when someone, or some group, appears on the screen or is chasing me. But again, that doesn't mean they aren't real issues, it just means I haven't seen them in however many thousands of hours I have spent pvp'ing. I also realize that different cheats and issues will be more or less of a problem on different shards and against different opponents.

What I have seen, and am convinced of, is the use of health scripts. Which is what lead me to post this thread in the first place, even though I knew I was going to catch a lot of flak for it from certain quarters.

 

[JoO]

I use a nostromo my pots are on my D pad thus on my thumb and are used instantly. The only thing I can think of that gives people a distinct advantage over me is tombstone editing. I see people alot that fly over stuff I get stuck on. Other than that meh.

 

[Llewen]

I use a nostromo my pots are on my D pad thus on my thumb and are used instantly. The only thing I can think of that gives people a distinct advantage over me is tombstone editing. I see people alot that fly over stuff I get stuck on. Other than that meh.

There are no tombstones in the enhanced client, and you can run right through the tiles that have them in the classic client.

 

[Vyal]

I think and i'm not 100% on this but say you got a guy running a speeder program so lets say you are after a guy running a speeder well if he goes straight you can keep up with him but the second that guy starts zig zag'n it would seem to me that more packets are going to the server since they are actually gaining ground on you those unwanted packets that REALLY shouldn't be there are then handled (causing lag server sided) then sent out to each client in a specific area I guess causing more packets then the client expects and it puts them on the back buffer causing client sided lag and then the guy running the speeder escapes. I do think that this also causes errors in the sockets and sometimes will cause some people to crash.

anyhow the programs are a serious problem mmk? Anyone who knows how to pvp can deal with a pot chugging script shyt I can chug faster then any script anyhow.....

do you know exactly how the UO servers handle someone with a ping over 20 thousand running faster then a guy with a ping of 20?

 

[Hiru]

I disagree with you about chugging being a huge issue. Logitech MX revolutions mouse combined with UOA allows me to use my thumb to cure pot, heal pot, refresh, box, and apple. My thumb is ALWAYS within 1/4 inch of ALL of those functions, so I can be *ready* for a cure the moment I see the other player casting poison...I can apple at a moments notice...and I can box myself pretty darned good too. I will happily demonstrate for you too, and take SS with full taskbar to prove I am not cheating.

You could use a good reality check to the real issues with PvP...people chugging really is not one of them. I suggest you look up that mouse I mentioned and look at others too. Intended functionality is a long way off from cheating.

Ditto

 

[Alezi]

 

[Llewen]

I disagree with you about chugging being a huge issue. Logitech MX revolutions mouse combined with UOA allows me to use my thumb to cure pot, heal pot, refresh, box, and apple. My thumb is ALWAYS within 1/4 inch of ALL of those functions, so I can be *ready* for a cure the moment I see the other player casting poison...I can apple at a moments notice...and I can box myself pretty darned good too. I will happily demonstrate for you too, and take SS with full taskbar to prove I am not cheating.

You could use a good reality check to the real issues with PvP...people chugging really is not one of them. I suggest you look up that mouse I mentioned and look at others too. Intended functionality is a long way off from cheating.

For the record, I have a Logitech G9 gaming mouse, a G13 game board, and a G15 keyboard (the old one with 18 G keys). I'm pretty aware of what is possible with good input hardware designed specifically for games combined with the complex macros you can use with UOA or in the enhanced client, and of course the macro and scripting functionality that comes with many of these items.

I believe I've already said this, but I will say it again. In general you can't surprise a well written script. It doesn't matter if you are distracted by an attack on you, or your attack on someone else. It doesn't matter if there are twenty people on screen all spamming spells, or your journal is full of all kinds of messages. It doesn't matter if you are tired or hung over, or distracted by someone chatting on Vent. The scripts will still do their job.

Sure, if we were to do a controlled test, you might be able to cure and heal faster than a script. But put you in a real world combat situation, with all the distractions that entails, a well written script with all the bugs worked out of it will win more often than not. It would take an exceptional player, and I do mean exceptional, to be more efficient and consistent than a well written script at pot chugging, healing, using trapped boxes and apples, etc.

Those that are posting to this thread and saying that scripts are easy to beat are either being deliberately misleading, or have fought against older versions of health scripts, or scripts that haven't been updated for some time, or simply aren't aware of what is possible with a well crafted script. And just because someone has encountered a buggy script that they were able to crash or fool doesn't mean that every version of that script has the same problems. Anyone with the right skill set can customize and rewrite any script, and fix the obvious bugs and issues themselves, and most do...

 

[Vyal]

scripts are easy to defeat dude only lame people who depend on chug scripts use them any how.

Just end it about scripts they are not the real concern if you can't kill a guy with a script go back to your tram guilds since you know so much about scripts I would put money that you use them yourself.

Yes scripts need to be something on the list of things a player can be put in jail for but not a ban, speeders, modders, exploiting (bans should be handed out for repeat offenders) those type of people are cheating I just can't consider something like a script cheating it's more like a automatic button pusher & it will do more harm then good anyhow.

 

[Llewen]

scripts are easy to defeat dude

Again, you are either being deliberately deceptive, or you don't know what a well crafted script is capable of. For something complex like mob a.i. it is extremely difficult to create one that will beat a human. But for something simple like pot chugging, healing, etc. a well written script is devastatingly fast, efficient, and consistent.

since you know so much about scripts I would put money that you use them yourself.

Now that's pretty funny. You can't have it both ways. Either I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm spewing nonsense, or I do know what I'm talking about and what I'm saying is true. You can't say I do know what I'm talking about and am spewing nonsense at the same time. And if I was so dependent on scripts, why exactly would I be campaigning so hard for them to be recognized for the problem they are, and removed forcibly from the game?

You really should try a little logic some time...

And I'll just add this. On the site for that program which shall not be named, the thread pertaining to the most popular health script is 77 pages in length. If that doesn't tell you that a lot of people are using these scripts, nothing will.

And before I get accused of using scripts again, I know this because this thread lead me to create an account on the site for that program which shall not be named, and do a little extra research. I have never even downloaded that program, let alone installed it or used it. I have however downloaded a few scripts to take a look at them and see if I could figure out exactly what they were capable of.