I
imported_mr.blackmage
Guest
no, that's called a gank, whether it's labeled as teamwork or not. You are saying to use 2 people to kill one person... and you don't think there is anything wrong with that? :S
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The OFFICIAL FIX the Greater Dragons/ALL PETS in PvP Thread!
- Thread starter Lord Mike
- Start date
- Watchers 0
G
Guest
Guest
no i'm saying use peace / discord to occupy the dragon, while your team mate concentrates on the tamer. And no i dont think it's gank if someone is going to be out there for the sole purpose of slowing down the pets, hence the peace/discord template.
I laughed hard at the post in this thread that said there should be a 50/50 chance that the pet drop, i'm assuming this means go wild. I mean i think that's insance, but if that happens then weapons and armor should have a 50/50 chance of going uninsured during a fight too.....
the dragons are slow as crap, go around the corner, invisi spell, tada. Either that or stay away from the guard zone fighting those that think they are pvp'ing while hiding in the comfort of the gz.
I laughed hard at the post in this thread that said there should be a 50/50 chance that the pet drop, i'm assuming this means go wild. I mean i think that's insance, but if that happens then weapons and armor should have a 50/50 chance of going uninsured during a fight too.....
the dragons are slow as crap, go around the corner, invisi spell, tada. Either that or stay away from the guard zone fighting those that think they are pvp'ing while hiding in the comfort of the gz.
I
imported_ElRay
Guest
why on gods green earth would the devs allow these new super dragons be tameable at all? Sure they are fine being pumped up for PVM, but yah you guessed it, the clever devs( do they even know what game they are programming these days? ) in their infinite wisdom decided to hey! lets make these bad boys available to the pvp crowd too!
Once again im not surprised by the ineptitude of the dev team, they really do make themselves look terrible to the mmorpg world
Once again im not surprised by the ineptitude of the dev team, they really do make themselves look terrible to the mmorpg world
G
Guest
Guest
Im just voicing my self here.
It is redicules to see pvp folks here complaining.
NO nerf is needed instead we need folks to rely play whit different skill set ups so we will get real diversity.
We shouldent have the stealth nerf instead we should have folks whit real detect skill and so on. no nerf for tamers instead pvp bards.
Get my point. Use the skills we got and when that isent eny'uf folks can come crying.
It is redicules to see pvp folks here complaining.
NO nerf is needed instead we need folks to rely play whit different skill set ups so we will get real diversity.
We shouldent have the stealth nerf instead we should have folks whit real detect skill and so on. no nerf for tamers instead pvp bards.
Get my point. Use the skills we got and when that isent eny'uf folks can come crying.
G
Guest
Guest
yay finally somebody NOT on siege perilous making this kind of post! Its like, thats when you know something is gonna get changed when the tr..... players of trammel type worlds start becoming upset about something.
I
imported_mr.blackmage
Guest
No, it's a gank. You're using another person to completely eliminate the pets out of the equation. I don't see why you think having 2 people performing negative actions on a player only counts as one. Taking a bard out to PvP isn't really the best idea. You would have to employ a PvMer to do this for you, because getting someone in a pvp guild to play a pvm character is pretty lame. It works ONLY against pets, and only if people aren't paying attention. Bottom line is, if you need 2 people to kill one, then that is a gank.
And since you don't seem to know : When you command a full life pet to "all kill", it warps to the target. There is no animation from the tile they started from to the tile that you are. It seems to jump 5-6 tiles. Instantly. Invis does nothing if the pet already started the spell queue. Once the spells start, then an invis isn't going to work for 5 or so seconds. And not everyone pvps at a gate where there are houses to break line of sight. And regardless of what you do, if you get hit with a 50 point firebreath and then some random combination of 5-6 queued spells, while this pet is teleporting after you... heh
And since you don't seem to know : When you command a full life pet to "all kill", it warps to the target. There is no animation from the tile they started from to the tile that you are. It seems to jump 5-6 tiles. Instantly. Invis does nothing if the pet already started the spell queue. Once the spells start, then an invis isn't going to work for 5 or so seconds. And not everyone pvps at a gate where there are houses to break line of sight. And regardless of what you do, if you get hit with a 50 point firebreath and then some random combination of 5-6 queued spells, while this pet is teleporting after you... heh
G
Guest
Guest
I wonder why isent all tamers in felucca owning all champ spawn. I meen tamers has been so overpowered the last 2 yers.
I
imported_ElRay
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
Im just voicing my self here.
It is redicules to see pvp folks here complaining.
[/ QUOTE ]
no whats ridiculous is pvp tamers being allowed to summon a 1000 hp GODZILLA with a petball anywhere at anytime over and over and over
yes devs your understanding of game mechanics is once again at its finest
/endsarcasm
Im just voicing my self here.
It is redicules to see pvp folks here complaining.
[/ QUOTE ]
no whats ridiculous is pvp tamers being allowed to summon a 1000 hp GODZILLA with a petball anywhere at anytime over and over and over
yes devs your understanding of game mechanics is once again at its finest
/endsarcasm
I
imported_mr.blackmage
Guest
Well, I would say because it actually requires skill to play correctly. There have been a LOT of people that have tried to play the template, but they invariably get frustrated. It definitely does require a greater level of situational awareness than other templates out there. A main issue is that when a GOOD pvper is on the template, it becomes insanely powerful.
And Tamers have been powerful throughout UO's history. The number one way to fight them has always been to isolate them from their pet. The bottom line is that 1 "hit" kills are a silly concept, and I don't believe that they should belong in the MMORPG universe.
And Tamers have been powerful throughout UO's history. The number one way to fight them has always been to isolate them from their pet. The bottom line is that 1 "hit" kills are a silly concept, and I don't believe that they should belong in the MMORPG universe.
I
imported_SavageSP
Guest
1. Put a 10-30 Second Timer on a Petball between uses.
2. Make Tamed Pets follow "line of sight and casting time restrictions" that Players have, anyone that has been killed by Pets enough knows this isnt how they work now, they go by whatever crazy rules the Untamed monsters have.
3. Ninja Tamers must be in human form to use the petball, and a 5-10 second timer after use to Hit Animal Form again.
4. No Pet should be able to fly/walk into a Private House that the Pet Owner cant get into. Its Easy to do, and Ive seen it many times on both sides of the Issue.
Standing outside the house and casting is fine if the pet can see the Target, but Teleporting in, Flying in, walking in by following, or E fielding it up onto a floor isnt.
The low timer on the pet ball isnt gonna hurt pvmers, the pets shouldnt be affected in PvM much since they are in contact with other Monsters they are fighting, but its hardly a Nerf by tweaking the casting. This would cut down on alot of the crazy PvP crap that has been going on for years and not hurt any tamers but the "Stealth Ninja Petball PvP Tamers".
A Tamer should still be able to use his 300+ skill points , just not in the Bad way its been used
2. Make Tamed Pets follow "line of sight and casting time restrictions" that Players have, anyone that has been killed by Pets enough knows this isnt how they work now, they go by whatever crazy rules the Untamed monsters have.
3. Ninja Tamers must be in human form to use the petball, and a 5-10 second timer after use to Hit Animal Form again.
4. No Pet should be able to fly/walk into a Private House that the Pet Owner cant get into. Its Easy to do, and Ive seen it many times on both sides of the Issue.
Standing outside the house and casting is fine if the pet can see the Target, but Teleporting in, Flying in, walking in by following, or E fielding it up onto a floor isnt.
The low timer on the pet ball isnt gonna hurt pvmers, the pets shouldnt be affected in PvM much since they are in contact with other Monsters they are fighting, but its hardly a Nerf by tweaking the casting. This would cut down on alot of the crazy PvP crap that has been going on for years and not hurt any tamers but the "Stealth Ninja Petball PvP Tamers".
A Tamer should still be able to use his 300+ skill points , just not in the Bad way its been used
G
Guest
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
no i'm saying use peace / discord to occupy the dragon, while your team mate concentrates on the tamer. And no i dont think it's gank if someone is going to be out there for the sole purpose of slowing down the pets, hence the peace/discord template.
I laughed hard at the post in this thread that said there should be a 50/50 chance that the pet drop, i'm assuming this means go wild. I mean i think that's insance, but if that happens then weapons and armor should have a 50/50 chance of going uninsured during a fight too.....
the dragons are slow as crap, go around the corner, invisi spell, tada. Either that or stay away from the guard zone fighting those that think they are pvp'ing while hiding in the comfort of the gz.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
The sad thing is that if only petballs get nerfed a tamer with a 5 slot dragon could still play with god mode on. Hell, I could just chug, and use a wand/mage spells and I could kill a player with just 480 skill points. Sure, if I'm fighting one of these tamers/dragons I could possibly get away and invis. But the odds of me killing them is low.
Also I don't see why people keep mentioning that the dragons are slow. It's irrelevant that they are slow since they can teleport via spell/petball.
no i'm saying use peace / discord to occupy the dragon, while your team mate concentrates on the tamer. And no i dont think it's gank if someone is going to be out there for the sole purpose of slowing down the pets, hence the peace/discord template.
I laughed hard at the post in this thread that said there should be a 50/50 chance that the pet drop, i'm assuming this means go wild. I mean i think that's insance, but if that happens then weapons and armor should have a 50/50 chance of going uninsured during a fight too.....
the dragons are slow as crap, go around the corner, invisi spell, tada. Either that or stay away from the guard zone fighting those that think they are pvp'ing while hiding in the comfort of the gz.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
The sad thing is that if only petballs get nerfed a tamer with a 5 slot dragon could still play with god mode on. Hell, I could just chug, and use a wand/mage spells and I could kill a player with just 480 skill points. Sure, if I'm fighting one of these tamers/dragons I could possibly get away and invis. But the odds of me killing them is low.
Also I don't see why people keep mentioning that the dragons are slow. It's irrelevant that they are slow since they can teleport via spell/petball.
F
Fayled Dhreams
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
whuat?
no bards allowed ?
No PvP for them?
awwww
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
whuat?
no bards allowed ?
No PvP for them?
awwww
I
imported_mr.blackmage
Guest
It used to be somewhat viable... Weak in comparison, but it was viable. Nowadays it's ONLY (relatively...) good for (bad) tamers.
I
imported_Lord GOD(GOD)
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
I managed to tame an ancient wyrm, but didn't manage to get it trained-up enough to partake in any meaningful PvP studies.
[/ QUOTE ]
???
<blockquote><hr>
What testing did YOU do? What were your findings? Where did you report them?
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all I tested how difficult it was for me to tame. I am co ordinated enough to lead tame, as it is entirely based on player skill it's not something to report.
Then I tested control chance at various levels, I found that what I have my tamers at on production shards is sufficient. Again thats relavant only to the individuals skill levels so doesn't need reporting.
Then I tested the dragons untrained survivability, however I forgot that TC had a pet bonding gate for the first dragon. The dragon despite being untrained took 5-10 players 5 minutes to gank, this was without vetting.
I later got another dragon bonded it, trained it and took it out for the masses to gank, with vetting it was unkillable. Most players except 4/6 chiv healing dexxers had a hard time surviving against it. It was only when they finally realised to gank the tamer rather than the pet that they got it low on health - which still took them a while as being TC I'd changed to wrestle/parry 45 dci and cat form for 40 hpr - at which point I logged out to save it.
I reported neither as I am happy with the results, I found out what I needed to know about them. I did post on Uhall the dragons are great and that 5 slots is the perfect balancer. No problem lies with the functionality of the dragon, which is why it's not about nerfing the pet.
<blockquote><hr>
How exactly would that particular nerf affect you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Many ways.
There are 5 animal forms I use that aren't mounted speed.
Theres 4 animal forms I use that are mounted speed.
3 out of those 4 animal forms don't achieve 100% success at 110 skill but are still viable for other purposes.
[edit] Mounted speed animal forms being used for running away, for example in doom where ever 5 seconds someone lures a lich lord on you, so you can get out of range, invis and get back to vetting your pet.[/edit]
People already think Ninjitsu is just for pvp, making animal form take a control slot just pushes that idea further, when it has so many more uses that the majority of the players don't even see.
I managed to tame an ancient wyrm, but didn't manage to get it trained-up enough to partake in any meaningful PvP studies.
[/ QUOTE ]
???
<blockquote><hr>
What testing did YOU do? What were your findings? Where did you report them?
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all I tested how difficult it was for me to tame. I am co ordinated enough to lead tame, as it is entirely based on player skill it's not something to report.
Then I tested control chance at various levels, I found that what I have my tamers at on production shards is sufficient. Again thats relavant only to the individuals skill levels so doesn't need reporting.
Then I tested the dragons untrained survivability, however I forgot that TC had a pet bonding gate for the first dragon. The dragon despite being untrained took 5-10 players 5 minutes to gank, this was without vetting.
I later got another dragon bonded it, trained it and took it out for the masses to gank, with vetting it was unkillable. Most players except 4/6 chiv healing dexxers had a hard time surviving against it. It was only when they finally realised to gank the tamer rather than the pet that they got it low on health - which still took them a while as being TC I'd changed to wrestle/parry 45 dci and cat form for 40 hpr - at which point I logged out to save it.
I reported neither as I am happy with the results, I found out what I needed to know about them. I did post on Uhall the dragons are great and that 5 slots is the perfect balancer. No problem lies with the functionality of the dragon, which is why it's not about nerfing the pet.
<blockquote><hr>
How exactly would that particular nerf affect you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Many ways.
There are 5 animal forms I use that aren't mounted speed.
Theres 4 animal forms I use that are mounted speed.
3 out of those 4 animal forms don't achieve 100% success at 110 skill but are still viable for other purposes.
[edit] Mounted speed animal forms being used for running away, for example in doom where ever 5 seconds someone lures a lich lord on you, so you can get out of range, invis and get back to vetting your pet.[/edit]
People already think Ninjitsu is just for pvp, making animal form take a control slot just pushes that idea further, when it has so many more uses that the majority of the players don't even see.
G
Guest
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
<blockquote><hr>
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
whuat?
no bards allowed ?
No PvP for them?
awwww
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not but since I'm bored I'll reply. If someone wants to pvp on a bard they can. It will probably be a necessity soon but anyway my point is that a template that targets monsters shouldn't be required in a player vs player setting.
<blockquote><hr>
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
whuat?
no bards allowed ?
No PvP for them?
awwww
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not but since I'm bored I'll reply. If someone wants to pvp on a bard they can. It will probably be a necessity soon but anyway my point is that a template that targets monsters shouldn't be required in a player vs player setting.
L
LAH Architect
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
Im just voicing my self here.
It is redicules to see pvp folks here complaining.
NO nerf is needed instead we need folks to rely play whit different skill set ups so we will get real diversity.
We shouldent have the stealth nerf instead we should have folks whit real detect skill and so on. no nerf for tamers instead pvp bards.
Get my point. Use the skills we got and when that isent eny'uf folks can come crying.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like diversity in templates too. One of UO's strong and fun gameplay is no class restrictions and players get to experiment with combinations to suit their own preferences. FREEDOM !
Most 'PvPers' want it easy : they cheat using AutoMedic programs, sonic run using speedhacks, synchronise target dump, ghostcam spy and it's no wonder they just want a single template (preferably their's) to own all the others easily.
Quite a few have suggested using characters with Detect Hidden and Bard skills. I see the horrified replies that : " nooooo bards dun belong in PvP !!! "
I think that is quite shortsighted and shows a lack of strategy. If V!P guild of Atlantic is known to field tamers, then you as a credible opponent should be fielding BARDS wearing 70s suit, carrying pots ! Have you folks not seen the Necro Peacer templates ? Those are very common at despise rats spawn. Discord Bards are also essential at Harrowers and help a lot at champ spawns.
Sample Template :
120 Music
120 Discord / Provoke
120 Magery
120 Med
120 Resist / Peacemake
120 Evalint
There you go : A working PvP Mage with bard skills. You spend 240 points in bard skills similar to a PvP Tamer spending 240 in taming skills. A PvP-enabled Bard is as useful as a PvP Tamer in champion spawns. They can field, res, gheal and their discord abilities can help a team finish up a champ faster than a tamer can. If a PvP Tamer takes up ninjitsu steath hide, your bard has 480 skill points left and can go stealth ninja too or even tamer yourself.
Some 'PvPers' fool around only at Yew Gate. You guys realise that a 120 Discord Bard can sit at GZ and discord pets with no retribution ? An elf with 100 Detect Hidden standing at Yew Gate can flush out hiders ? It just takes one cowardly blue hugging the Yew GZ to neutralise ninja stealth tamers.
Real PvPers fight in the field. Yew is just a cradle for newbie folks fooling around and house hiding is another bugbear. Just go Asian shards and you find that there is no Yew Gate Fighting ! They fight all over the lands : sometimes the flashpoint could be a pker killing a miner and guildmates from both sides start coming in and having huge fields in the middle of nowhere near a mountain.
Why should some players have a say if tamers and bards have a place in PvP ? The opinion that tamers and bards only belong in PvM is outdated ! They have their own strengths and weakness. Their usefulness in Fel PvP will only give more variety to Fel fights and make them more challenging. Perhaps one day we can have thiefs returning back to Fel with their own unique useful ability, to be countered by Detectives (Forensics) as their nemesis.
Some 'PvPers' keep saying that pets in PvP is lame yadda yadda. Let me tell you what I think is lame. I think it is lame that a big portion of 'PvPers' use hacks, scripts and bugs.
Tamers, Petballs, Bolas, Ninja Stealthers, New Dragons :they are all legit and any player can use them in game.
Speedhacks, Targeting Scripts, Automedic Scripts, Auto Synchro Dump Scripts, Double Shots Heavy Xbows, No mana moving shots are not legal but widely abused by these 'pvpers' sprouting their " Lame Lame Tamers dun belong in Fel " PvP crap here.
pHeAr the bArDs !
* My shameless plug for bards : Give us back our uber PvP firehorns ! *
Im just voicing my self here.
It is redicules to see pvp folks here complaining.
NO nerf is needed instead we need folks to rely play whit different skill set ups so we will get real diversity.
We shouldent have the stealth nerf instead we should have folks whit real detect skill and so on. no nerf for tamers instead pvp bards.
Get my point. Use the skills we got and when that isent eny'uf folks can come crying.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like diversity in templates too. One of UO's strong and fun gameplay is no class restrictions and players get to experiment with combinations to suit their own preferences. FREEDOM !
Most 'PvPers' want it easy : they cheat using AutoMedic programs, sonic run using speedhacks, synchronise target dump, ghostcam spy and it's no wonder they just want a single template (preferably their's) to own all the others easily.
Quite a few have suggested using characters with Detect Hidden and Bard skills. I see the horrified replies that : " nooooo bards dun belong in PvP !!! "
I think that is quite shortsighted and shows a lack of strategy. If V!P guild of Atlantic is known to field tamers, then you as a credible opponent should be fielding BARDS wearing 70s suit, carrying pots ! Have you folks not seen the Necro Peacer templates ? Those are very common at despise rats spawn. Discord Bards are also essential at Harrowers and help a lot at champ spawns.
Sample Template :
120 Music
120 Discord / Provoke
120 Magery
120 Med
120 Resist / Peacemake
120 Evalint
There you go : A working PvP Mage with bard skills. You spend 240 points in bard skills similar to a PvP Tamer spending 240 in taming skills. A PvP-enabled Bard is as useful as a PvP Tamer in champion spawns. They can field, res, gheal and their discord abilities can help a team finish up a champ faster than a tamer can. If a PvP Tamer takes up ninjitsu steath hide, your bard has 480 skill points left and can go stealth ninja too or even tamer yourself.
Some 'PvPers' fool around only at Yew Gate. You guys realise that a 120 Discord Bard can sit at GZ and discord pets with no retribution ? An elf with 100 Detect Hidden standing at Yew Gate can flush out hiders ? It just takes one cowardly blue hugging the Yew GZ to neutralise ninja stealth tamers.
Real PvPers fight in the field. Yew is just a cradle for newbie folks fooling around and house hiding is another bugbear. Just go Asian shards and you find that there is no Yew Gate Fighting ! They fight all over the lands : sometimes the flashpoint could be a pker killing a miner and guildmates from both sides start coming in and having huge fields in the middle of nowhere near a mountain.
Why should some players have a say if tamers and bards have a place in PvP ? The opinion that tamers and bards only belong in PvM is outdated ! They have their own strengths and weakness. Their usefulness in Fel PvP will only give more variety to Fel fights and make them more challenging. Perhaps one day we can have thiefs returning back to Fel with their own unique useful ability, to be countered by Detectives (Forensics) as their nemesis.
Some 'PvPers' keep saying that pets in PvP is lame yadda yadda. Let me tell you what I think is lame. I think it is lame that a big portion of 'PvPers' use hacks, scripts and bugs.
Tamers, Petballs, Bolas, Ninja Stealthers, New Dragons :they are all legit and any player can use them in game.
Speedhacks, Targeting Scripts, Automedic Scripts, Auto Synchro Dump Scripts, Double Shots Heavy Xbows, No mana moving shots are not legal but widely abused by these 'pvpers' sprouting their " Lame Lame Tamers dun belong in Fel " PvP crap here.
pHeAr the bArDs !
* My shameless plug for bards : Give us back our uber PvP firehorns ! *
I
imported_Sarphus
Guest
considering pets are at BEST balanced in pvm, and you consider that many pets are overpowered in pvp, wouldn't that imply that the problem isn't the pets?
I think the problem is abuseable game mechanics like pet summoning; not pets.
It's OBVIOUS.
I think the problem is abuseable game mechanics like pet summoning; not pets.
It's OBVIOUS.
I
imported_mr.blackmage
Guest
You really think that there are that many people cheating..?
L
LAH Architect
Guest
Unfortunately yes.
They vary in terms of intensity they cheat. From hardcore fullblown to casual abuse a bug. Slow GM Reaction and Tolerance of cheating behavious means their ranks continue to grow. More and more pvpers that are sitting on the fence also feel compelled to 'enhance' themselves to compete successfully.
If you need figures, I believe some folks have analysed the number of registered bug forums users vs UO total subscriptions. Some of the more egoistic cheats also register nicks that can be easily traced to their Stratics nicks and ingame characters.
I believe I can tell the difference ingame between legit good use of tactics, templates and items (aka skill) vs 'impossible' feats (e.g. wtf you get doubleshot special move off a HxBow : that's abusing a bug, very tempting and easy to do but still not supposed to, hence lame cheater ! ).
We might be going OT here, but just to point out that the majority of the PvP Community is easily provoked to nerf other people's templates (as long they not affected). I am saying give template diversity a chance, give Bards a chance, give thiefs a chance. As long as there are legit COUNTERS to a type of template, it's balanced. Even if you wither down PvP to Dexer vs Mages (old school), there will still be screams and whines here about how each other is overpowered.
If Tamers with New Dragons are truely the overpowered ultimate PvP template out there, everyone at Yew Gate and Champion Spawn Areas can use them and will use them. It is legal and legit for PvPers to make a tamer. It is less lame than the cheaters aka : - All Cheats No Skill.
For the very few non-cheating PvPers out there, these guys / gals are the truely innovating ones and can cope .
To the PvM tamers distancing themselves from their PvP counterparts, know that after they are done with them, they will still go after you to nerf the new dragon because tamers are not allowed in PvP (according to their definition). A tamer with a new dragon (heck.. a cusidhe too) can break Necro Wither chokepoint at Harrowers hence they will scream that one tamer and new dragon took out their 4 wither spamming necros. If they bother and think out of box, an area peacing (bard) necro will save their chokepoint as well as tamer necros with their own pets.
Ninja Stealth Tamers have very cramped templates and many weaknesses. They still have 700-720 skill points and access to skills like you and me. For starters, not having meditation and magic resistance is a serious flaw for long battles. I always enjoyed my fights on a necro mage vs one of my shard's better pk stealth ninja tamer with beetle and mare. His surprise attacks usually leave me at half to quarter life and I die often but there are times that I recover and disable his pets by just casting para field. He doesn't flamestrike because no evalint (cramped template) and my counter to him ninja bombing away is to revenant him / strangle. And the times that I die ? It just takes the time to run to friendly lines, res up and back to fight in 5-10 seconds after res.
They vary in terms of intensity they cheat. From hardcore fullblown to casual abuse a bug. Slow GM Reaction and Tolerance of cheating behavious means their ranks continue to grow. More and more pvpers that are sitting on the fence also feel compelled to 'enhance' themselves to compete successfully.
If you need figures, I believe some folks have analysed the number of registered bug forums users vs UO total subscriptions. Some of the more egoistic cheats also register nicks that can be easily traced to their Stratics nicks and ingame characters.
I believe I can tell the difference ingame between legit good use of tactics, templates and items (aka skill) vs 'impossible' feats (e.g. wtf you get doubleshot special move off a HxBow : that's abusing a bug, very tempting and easy to do but still not supposed to, hence lame cheater ! ).
We might be going OT here, but just to point out that the majority of the PvP Community is easily provoked to nerf other people's templates (as long they not affected). I am saying give template diversity a chance, give Bards a chance, give thiefs a chance. As long as there are legit COUNTERS to a type of template, it's balanced. Even if you wither down PvP to Dexer vs Mages (old school), there will still be screams and whines here about how each other is overpowered.
If Tamers with New Dragons are truely the overpowered ultimate PvP template out there, everyone at Yew Gate and Champion Spawn Areas can use them and will use them. It is legal and legit for PvPers to make a tamer. It is less lame than the cheaters aka : - All Cheats No Skill.
For the very few non-cheating PvPers out there, these guys / gals are the truely innovating ones and can cope .
To the PvM tamers distancing themselves from their PvP counterparts, know that after they are done with them, they will still go after you to nerf the new dragon because tamers are not allowed in PvP (according to their definition). A tamer with a new dragon (heck.. a cusidhe too) can break Necro Wither chokepoint at Harrowers hence they will scream that one tamer and new dragon took out their 4 wither spamming necros. If they bother and think out of box, an area peacing (bard) necro will save their chokepoint as well as tamer necros with their own pets.
Ninja Stealth Tamers have very cramped templates and many weaknesses. They still have 700-720 skill points and access to skills like you and me. For starters, not having meditation and magic resistance is a serious flaw for long battles. I always enjoyed my fights on a necro mage vs one of my shard's better pk stealth ninja tamer with beetle and mare. His surprise attacks usually leave me at half to quarter life and I die often but there are times that I recover and disable his pets by just casting para field. He doesn't flamestrike because no evalint (cramped template) and my counter to him ninja bombing away is to revenant him / strangle. And the times that I die ? It just takes the time to run to friendly lines, res up and back to fight in 5-10 seconds after res.
A
Azmira Zalof
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
Sadly, given all the unedified screeching we've seen on UHall in the last few days, we're more likely to see a nerfing of the abilities of the dragons, rather than a well-thought-out addressing of the "problems" with PvP tamers in general.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is nothing "well thought about" about a tamable with close to 1000hp, that can firebreath upwards of 50 damage against maxxed fire resist, hit for 30+ against maxxed physical resist, and on top of all that, have intense mana and be able to bleed. The dragons were a poor implementation, not a symptom of bad feedback. Devs need to stop and think about the affects there additions will have to ALL playstyles, and the myriad of different ways these additions can be abused.
Sadly, given all the unedified screeching we've seen on UHall in the last few days, we're more likely to see a nerfing of the abilities of the dragons, rather than a well-thought-out addressing of the "problems" with PvP tamers in general.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is nothing "well thought about" about a tamable with close to 1000hp, that can firebreath upwards of 50 damage against maxxed fire resist, hit for 30+ against maxxed physical resist, and on top of all that, have intense mana and be able to bleed. The dragons were a poor implementation, not a symptom of bad feedback. Devs need to stop and think about the affects there additions will have to ALL playstyles, and the myriad of different ways these additions can be abused.
G
Guest
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
The sad thing is that if only petballs get nerfed a tamer with a 5 slot dragon could still play with god mode on. Hell, I could just chug, and use a wand/mage spells and I could kill a player with just 480 skill points. Sure, if I'm fighting one of these tamers/dragons I could possibly get away and invis. But the odds of me killing them is low.
Also I don't see why people keep mentioning that the dragons are slow. It's irrelevant that they are slow since they can teleport via spell/petball.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I've said this a dozen times, but the following would further address your issues with these pets:
- Fixing their slayer vulnerability to work
- Removing teleport from their spell "book"
- On top of fixing the pet balls and carefully fixing ninja animal forms.
- Oh and make fighting pet bonding require the vet skill for res'ing if you need it too.
I'm sure there will still be complaints regardless of how much nerfing the pets or tamers get, even with those suggestions, but I at least want to make the effort to resolve this in a way that considers the majority of tamers, rather than the pathetic handful of gimps we have now.
Wenchy
The sad thing is that if only petballs get nerfed a tamer with a 5 slot dragon could still play with god mode on. Hell, I could just chug, and use a wand/mage spells and I could kill a player with just 480 skill points. Sure, if I'm fighting one of these tamers/dragons I could possibly get away and invis. But the odds of me killing them is low.
Also I don't see why people keep mentioning that the dragons are slow. It's irrelevant that they are slow since they can teleport via spell/petball.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I've said this a dozen times, but the following would further address your issues with these pets:
- Fixing their slayer vulnerability to work
- Removing teleport from their spell "book"
- On top of fixing the pet balls and carefully fixing ninja animal forms.
- Oh and make fighting pet bonding require the vet skill for res'ing if you need it too.
I'm sure there will still be complaints regardless of how much nerfing the pets or tamers get, even with those suggestions, but I at least want to make the effort to resolve this in a way that considers the majority of tamers, rather than the pathetic handful of gimps we have now.
Wenchy
I
imported_revenant2
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
I still think there are options before nuking pet damage. I'm quite open to these dragons being toned down if only to remove their teleport spell
But only once the other avenues are tried and tested first.
I don't want is a very badly constructed nerf based on exaggerated claims from players who could (for arguments sake) be using a 40 resist suit or simply suck at fighting tamers. We all know the stupid claims that get made on UHall. EA devs don't always have time to test out these theories, which is where stupid fixes come from.
I would like to see a staged tone down of tamer strengths when using the gimp tactics. So that there is time to evaluate exactly how much trouble tamers are at each stage. Gimps like it easy. They will go with whatever gets the results most easily. They may be less adaptable than we expect
One example of a nerf I'd suggest before killing pet damage is to make pet bonding (for fighting pets) require the real vet skill to res that pet. The gimp tamers who don't use vet would be limited to disposable pets. You can't use a pet ball with those, or recall with them either. They're also much harder to train. If they die the tamer has to go get more. Another inconvenience. Again, that wouldn't hurt the PvM tamers so much, but it would nerf templates without vet.
Wenchy
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting stuff and good points, and maybe those ideas would work.
I still think there are options before nuking pet damage. I'm quite open to these dragons being toned down if only to remove their teleport spell
I don't want is a very badly constructed nerf based on exaggerated claims from players who could (for arguments sake) be using a 40 resist suit or simply suck at fighting tamers. We all know the stupid claims that get made on UHall. EA devs don't always have time to test out these theories, which is where stupid fixes come from.
I would like to see a staged tone down of tamer strengths when using the gimp tactics. So that there is time to evaluate exactly how much trouble tamers are at each stage. Gimps like it easy. They will go with whatever gets the results most easily. They may be less adaptable than we expect
One example of a nerf I'd suggest before killing pet damage is to make pet bonding (for fighting pets) require the real vet skill to res that pet. The gimp tamers who don't use vet would be limited to disposable pets. You can't use a pet ball with those, or recall with them either. They're also much harder to train. If they die the tamer has to go get more. Another inconvenience. Again, that wouldn't hurt the PvM tamers so much, but it would nerf templates without vet.
Wenchy
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting stuff and good points, and maybe those ideas would work.
I
imported_Daelomin
Guest
<u>Changes I would like to see that would balance pvp - including some taming changes</u>
Petballs should only be used when you are flagged as a NON-agressor. Pet balls are powerful enough the way they are.
Animal form should require 1 control slot avoid abusing new dragons as a running tamer.
Casting Animal form should freeze the caster for 1.5s-2s.
Should not be able to pot or use evasion in animal form.
Bolas should require skill points, turn item id or some other pointless skill into a bola skill.
Re-use timer of 20 secs for petballs.
Dismount from Heavy cross bow should have much harder chance to succeed.
Moving shot on bows should have much harder chance to succeed. Its currently not working as intended.
Mortal blows should have dimminishing returns like paralyse.
Blood oath should have a recast timer, as in its current form you can have it up 24/7.
Trapped boxes should do minimum direct damage of 20.
Every fight nowdays is either dismount gank or chaining-mortals... To be honest, pvp could be a lot more fun than it is today.
Petballs should only be used when you are flagged as a NON-agressor. Pet balls are powerful enough the way they are.
Animal form should require 1 control slot avoid abusing new dragons as a running tamer.
Casting Animal form should freeze the caster for 1.5s-2s.
Should not be able to pot or use evasion in animal form.
Bolas should require skill points, turn item id or some other pointless skill into a bola skill.
Re-use timer of 20 secs for petballs.
Dismount from Heavy cross bow should have much harder chance to succeed.
Moving shot on bows should have much harder chance to succeed. Its currently not working as intended.
Mortal blows should have dimminishing returns like paralyse.
Blood oath should have a recast timer, as in its current form you can have it up 24/7.
Trapped boxes should do minimum direct damage of 20.
Every fight nowdays is either dismount gank or chaining-mortals... To be honest, pvp could be a lot more fun than it is today.
I
imported_Anakena
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
<blockquote><hr>
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
whuat?
no bards allowed ?
No PvP for them?
awwww
[/ QUOTE ]
According to some people, PvP is an elite business only open to pure mages, moving shot archers and necromancers. If you are on your tailor or your miner you are supposed to die fast (it is even a lack of tact to try to recall out). If you are on your tamer, you are not supposed to defend yourself by using your pet(s) as it would not be fair
<blockquote><hr>
Bards should NEVER be needed in PvP. Just look at the term. Its player vs player not player vs monster. Not to mention that the fact that a bard is needed shows that the dragon is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
whuat?
no bards allowed ?
No PvP for them?
awwww
[/ QUOTE ]
According to some people, PvP is an elite business only open to pure mages, moving shot archers and necromancers. If you are on your tailor or your miner you are supposed to die fast (it is even a lack of tact to try to recall out). If you are on your tamer, you are not supposed to defend yourself by using your pet(s) as it would not be fair
I
imported_Anakena
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
There is nothing "well thought about" about a tamable with close to 1000hp, that can firebreath upwards of 50 damage against maxxed fire resist,...
[/ QUOTE ]
With about 1000 HP the firebreath will only make around 30 points damage against 70 resists. A wild dragon can make up to 60 damage with its firebreath but since the HP are halved upon taming (firebreath damages depends on the Hit points), the damage is halved too. Keep in mind that this is a maximum a greater dragon with 800 hp will only make 24 damage with its firebreath (against 70 resist)
There is nothing "well thought about" about a tamable with close to 1000hp, that can firebreath upwards of 50 damage against maxxed fire resist,...
[/ QUOTE ]
With about 1000 HP the firebreath will only make around 30 points damage against 70 resists. A wild dragon can make up to 60 damage with its firebreath but since the HP are halved upon taming (firebreath damages depends on the Hit points), the damage is halved too. Keep in mind that this is a maximum a greater dragon with 800 hp will only make 24 damage with its firebreath (against 70 resist)
I
imported_revenant2
Guest
PVP imbalance in UO is like the color pink. You know it when you see it, even if you can't explain or don't understand what the underlying problem is.
When you are walking along and all of a sudden you are bola'd or heavy-crossbowed off of your mount, and then a beetle-bake is on top of you, and you die without a real chance to fight back, you know that a PVP imbalance just happened.
In the context of the new dragons, you know that a PVP imbalance happened when you were bola'd off of your mount in the middle of a bunch of trees and ground clutter and then a superdragon teleported to you and killed you in 2 strikes. You know there was nothing you could do, and it becomes even stranger when you and the 4 friends you call in cannot deal with the guy and you all die over and over again. And then the guy eventually takes off in Ostard form.... heh.
In these cases, you call it 'lame gimp tamer' in your mind and walk away because it's all you can do, it's the only UO you have and it's either stay or quit.
The tamers who do this to people don't call it 'gimp' and attempt to defend what they call their 'playstyle'. The amount of personal skill or template planning that the victims had may not even be noticible to the 'lamer tamer'.
But no matter what defense that 'gimp' tamer puts up, the real nature of that kill remains clear to that person who died to that 'gimp' tamer. It's as clear as the color pink. The victim knows that he didn't get a chance to use his own personal skills and template to defend himself and that there are no reasonable adjustments he can make to his template to help prevent it next time.
When you are walking along and two mages come galloping up and they paralyze you over and over again and then kill you because you can't heal nor run away, the same thing applies. You call it 'lame para gank' in your mind and walk away because it's all you can do, it's the only UO you have and it's either stay or quit.
The mages who do this to people don't call it 'gimp' and attempt to defend what they call their 'playstyle'. When accused of being 'gimp' (think: unbalanced), they will act as though the victim's template or gear is at fault. The person who died knows better, though. He's got plenty of planning in his gear and template and may even have significant magic resist, and the person may have even been attempting to carry quirky items that help him survive this kind of quirky attack. The 'gimp' tactics are by their nature overpowered so, it's a logistical problem to cope with it with gear or template modifications.
If something about the available uses of paralyze were not overpowered, there would be no trapped-box issue at all. Who would care if someone wanted to open a low-powered dart trapped box repeatedly. But in the current situation, all the people can do is yell for their trapped boxes not to be taken away, because they feel like they can't ask for a fix to the 'gimpness' of, or removal of, the Paralyze spell.
The way that the term 'para bait' exists and is used is further evidence that there's a balance problem. A guy who is true 'para bait' is a simple kill for a lone mage, especially if the mage thinks to bola him after the first para, and then work it from there. There's no equivalent situation in non-mage templates, there's no 'somethingelse-bait'.
The game balance right now does not support the idea that whenever 2 people attack one person, the two should always get the kill. Most template combinations allow a person to escape if that's what they really want to do. The paralyze spell that's available to mages takes that away in a way that cannot be compensated for within the template or with gear changes - that's part of where this particular imbalance lies.
When an archer is attacked by a maxed out DCI parry dexer and finds that he has zero chance of killing that person and that he has to run like hell or die to spammed armor ignores, he knows there's an imbalance. Assuming the archer doesn't die too fast to realize what's happening, that archer finds that his slow-swinging, apparrently accuracy-impaired weapons are no contest against that high-resists 45 DCI guy who, even once he's been affected by a high-intensity hit lower defense weapon, is still leaving him with a meager 60% chance to hit due to the parry covering his ass. Without that hit lower defense effect, the total chance to hit acts something like 10%. A hopeless fight from which the archer can only hope to escape before his luck runs out and he gets caught in some trees and slaughtered.
It's the color pink all over again.
As UO is right now, every single template cannot be pre-programmed to be able to dodge every single lame quirk kill tactic and every single template clash that unintentionally (design-wise) emerges from the masses of possible skill combinations.
****************
Hit Lower Defense + HCI is the pure archer's only tool right now to attempt to defeat DCI, and even now it's not a powerful enough effect to create balance against the way parry has been implemented. Yet, Hit Lower Defense is also a tool that aids the overpowered 'gimp tamer' in his quest to practically insta-kill victims with his quirky setup.
****************
So, what's a game designer to do?
Well, they attempt to understand the mechanics of what creates 'gimp' tactics and template clashes, and spot-fix them.
Some template clashes and gimp tactics are apparrently liked by a significant numbers of players, though!!! This can make it convoluted to identify or even verify the issues.
There are lots of mages in UO right now who would be enraged at the idea of modifying the Paralyze spell such that the para-gank cannot work any more. And Archers seem universally hated by all other classes. Listening to non-archers in vent and reading their posts, you would think that any time an archer killed somebody it should have never happened, and archers are always supposed to be dead and singing the oOoOoO song.
The 45-DCI dexers complain very loudly when by that one-in-seemingly 15 chance, a dismount archer finally gets them on foot. And god forbid should an archer build his template for max LMC and get a kill using spammed moving shot from a composite bow (one way a solo archer who isn't exploiting can get kills).
There are players who will tell you that under no circumstances can an archer kill them 1 on 1, and they are right. But it's not because of some great skill in template planning on their part, it's ... like the color pink.
---
So in context, here's to hoping they correctly identify and resolve the gimpness in the 'lamer tamer' tactics with minimum inconvenience to the intended, 'real' tamer templates. The new dragons sure are neat and I love mine, but their abilities are exacerbating the 'lamer tamer' PVP thing.
And here's to hoping that one day the para-gank is gone, and archers aren't helpless to disarm-spamming armor-ignoring DCI parry dexers.
May I suggest that after the gimp dismount-archer-tamer-tactics are fixed, they make it such that archers are not disarmable and that HLD when activated from a bow also drops someone's parry down to nothing for the duration? *watch for flames!*.
When you are walking along and all of a sudden you are bola'd or heavy-crossbowed off of your mount, and then a beetle-bake is on top of you, and you die without a real chance to fight back, you know that a PVP imbalance just happened.
In the context of the new dragons, you know that a PVP imbalance happened when you were bola'd off of your mount in the middle of a bunch of trees and ground clutter and then a superdragon teleported to you and killed you in 2 strikes. You know there was nothing you could do, and it becomes even stranger when you and the 4 friends you call in cannot deal with the guy and you all die over and over again. And then the guy eventually takes off in Ostard form.... heh.
In these cases, you call it 'lame gimp tamer' in your mind and walk away because it's all you can do, it's the only UO you have and it's either stay or quit.
The tamers who do this to people don't call it 'gimp' and attempt to defend what they call their 'playstyle'. The amount of personal skill or template planning that the victims had may not even be noticible to the 'lamer tamer'.
But no matter what defense that 'gimp' tamer puts up, the real nature of that kill remains clear to that person who died to that 'gimp' tamer. It's as clear as the color pink. The victim knows that he didn't get a chance to use his own personal skills and template to defend himself and that there are no reasonable adjustments he can make to his template to help prevent it next time.
When you are walking along and two mages come galloping up and they paralyze you over and over again and then kill you because you can't heal nor run away, the same thing applies. You call it 'lame para gank' in your mind and walk away because it's all you can do, it's the only UO you have and it's either stay or quit.
The mages who do this to people don't call it 'gimp' and attempt to defend what they call their 'playstyle'. When accused of being 'gimp' (think: unbalanced), they will act as though the victim's template or gear is at fault. The person who died knows better, though. He's got plenty of planning in his gear and template and may even have significant magic resist, and the person may have even been attempting to carry quirky items that help him survive this kind of quirky attack. The 'gimp' tactics are by their nature overpowered so, it's a logistical problem to cope with it with gear or template modifications.
If something about the available uses of paralyze were not overpowered, there would be no trapped-box issue at all. Who would care if someone wanted to open a low-powered dart trapped box repeatedly. But in the current situation, all the people can do is yell for their trapped boxes not to be taken away, because they feel like they can't ask for a fix to the 'gimpness' of, or removal of, the Paralyze spell.
The way that the term 'para bait' exists and is used is further evidence that there's a balance problem. A guy who is true 'para bait' is a simple kill for a lone mage, especially if the mage thinks to bola him after the first para, and then work it from there. There's no equivalent situation in non-mage templates, there's no 'somethingelse-bait'.
The game balance right now does not support the idea that whenever 2 people attack one person, the two should always get the kill. Most template combinations allow a person to escape if that's what they really want to do. The paralyze spell that's available to mages takes that away in a way that cannot be compensated for within the template or with gear changes - that's part of where this particular imbalance lies.
When an archer is attacked by a maxed out DCI parry dexer and finds that he has zero chance of killing that person and that he has to run like hell or die to spammed armor ignores, he knows there's an imbalance. Assuming the archer doesn't die too fast to realize what's happening, that archer finds that his slow-swinging, apparrently accuracy-impaired weapons are no contest against that high-resists 45 DCI guy who, even once he's been affected by a high-intensity hit lower defense weapon, is still leaving him with a meager 60% chance to hit due to the parry covering his ass. Without that hit lower defense effect, the total chance to hit acts something like 10%. A hopeless fight from which the archer can only hope to escape before his luck runs out and he gets caught in some trees and slaughtered.
It's the color pink all over again.
As UO is right now, every single template cannot be pre-programmed to be able to dodge every single lame quirk kill tactic and every single template clash that unintentionally (design-wise) emerges from the masses of possible skill combinations.
****************
Hit Lower Defense + HCI is the pure archer's only tool right now to attempt to defeat DCI, and even now it's not a powerful enough effect to create balance against the way parry has been implemented. Yet, Hit Lower Defense is also a tool that aids the overpowered 'gimp tamer' in his quest to practically insta-kill victims with his quirky setup.
****************
So, what's a game designer to do?
Well, they attempt to understand the mechanics of what creates 'gimp' tactics and template clashes, and spot-fix them.
Some template clashes and gimp tactics are apparrently liked by a significant numbers of players, though!!! This can make it convoluted to identify or even verify the issues.
There are lots of mages in UO right now who would be enraged at the idea of modifying the Paralyze spell such that the para-gank cannot work any more. And Archers seem universally hated by all other classes. Listening to non-archers in vent and reading their posts, you would think that any time an archer killed somebody it should have never happened, and archers are always supposed to be dead and singing the oOoOoO song.
The 45-DCI dexers complain very loudly when by that one-in-seemingly 15 chance, a dismount archer finally gets them on foot. And god forbid should an archer build his template for max LMC and get a kill using spammed moving shot from a composite bow (one way a solo archer who isn't exploiting can get kills).
There are players who will tell you that under no circumstances can an archer kill them 1 on 1, and they are right. But it's not because of some great skill in template planning on their part, it's ... like the color pink.
---
So in context, here's to hoping they correctly identify and resolve the gimpness in the 'lamer tamer' tactics with minimum inconvenience to the intended, 'real' tamer templates. The new dragons sure are neat and I love mine, but their abilities are exacerbating the 'lamer tamer' PVP thing.
And here's to hoping that one day the para-gank is gone, and archers aren't helpless to disarm-spamming armor-ignoring DCI parry dexers.
May I suggest that after the gimp dismount-archer-tamer-tactics are fixed, they make it such that archers are not disarmable and that HLD when activated from a bow also drops someone's parry down to nothing for the duration? *watch for flames!*.
I
imported_Lord GOD(GOD)
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
According to some people, PvP is an elite business only open to pure mages, moving shot archers and necromancers. If you are on your tailor or your miner you are supposed to die fast (it is even a lack of tact to try to recall out). If you are on your tamer, you are not supposed to defend yourself by using your pet(s) as it would not be fair
[/ QUOTE ]
PVP is open to anyone willing to learn it. Why would you bring up mules? Anyone sitting on a mule in non-gz fel can't claim to be too suprised if they die to someone when their set up to chop wood and the person who killed them is set up to kill people.
Don't kid yourself that tamers in PVP are some poor victim trying to defend themselfs, their trying to kill people by effectively out numbering them.
According to some people, PvP is an elite business only open to pure mages, moving shot archers and necromancers. If you are on your tailor or your miner you are supposed to die fast (it is even a lack of tact to try to recall out). If you are on your tamer, you are not supposed to defend yourself by using your pet(s) as it would not be fair
[/ QUOTE ]
PVP is open to anyone willing to learn it. Why would you bring up mules? Anyone sitting on a mule in non-gz fel can't claim to be too suprised if they die to someone when their set up to chop wood and the person who killed them is set up to kill people.
Don't kid yourself that tamers in PVP are some poor victim trying to defend themselfs, their trying to kill people by effectively out numbering them.
I
imported_Lord GOD(GOD)
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
- On top of fixing the pet balls and carefully fixing ninja animal forms.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ninjitsu animal forms aren't broken, they've been doing the same thing that they've always done. (which considering the amount of other 'balances' ninjitsu has had would have been addressed by now if they weren't working as intended)
No one was claiming animal form was broken until they add a 5 slot dragon then everyone acts like ninjitsus at fault.
It's as stupid as when people say necro is over powered by saying what mage spells are cast with it.
- On top of fixing the pet balls and carefully fixing ninja animal forms.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ninjitsu animal forms aren't broken, they've been doing the same thing that they've always done. (which considering the amount of other 'balances' ninjitsu has had would have been addressed by now if they weren't working as intended)
No one was claiming animal form was broken until they add a 5 slot dragon then everyone acts like ninjitsus at fault.
It's as stupid as when people say necro is over powered by saying what mage spells are cast with it.
G
Guest
Guest
Ninja tamer complaints are not just specific to this dragon. There have been complaints about "un-catchable tamers" before
And just for absolute clarity, again, the pet balls should be nerfed first and foremost, anything else I've suggested comes secondary to that, only if it's needed.
Wenchy
And just for absolute clarity, again, the pet balls should be nerfed first and foremost, anything else I've suggested comes secondary to that, only if it's needed.
Wenchy
G
Guest
Guest
Super dragons should be:
Hued differently so they can be spotted in the midst of others. You should at least know when you are up against wild one-hit kill creatures.
Non-tameable. I mean, did anyone seriously believe tamers (PvM or PvP) were under-powered before and needed an even more powerful pet?
Removed from champ spawns. The other buffs to dread spiders, champs and harrowers really reduced the number of champs being done, which is a big shame as its the only place some semblance of real PvP happens. Adding super dragons to the mix was nuts.
As for PvP taming in general:
It just needs the simple fix of a 10 minute cooldown timer on pet balls. This would have no effect on PvM and remove most of the gimpiness in PvP.
Hued differently so they can be spotted in the midst of others. You should at least know when you are up against wild one-hit kill creatures.
Non-tameable. I mean, did anyone seriously believe tamers (PvM or PvP) were under-powered before and needed an even more powerful pet?
Removed from champ spawns. The other buffs to dread spiders, champs and harrowers really reduced the number of champs being done, which is a big shame as its the only place some semblance of real PvP happens. Adding super dragons to the mix was nuts.
As for PvP taming in general:
It just needs the simple fix of a 10 minute cooldown timer on pet balls. This would have no effect on PvM and remove most of the gimpiness in PvP.
I
imported_Wing Chun
Guest
The solution is simple, make animal form, polymorf etc take 1 control slot
I
imported_Lord GOD(GOD)
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
Ninja tamer complaints are not just specific to this dragon. There have been complaints about "un-catchable tamers" before
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Yeah but the number of nerfs ninjitsu has had compared to taming, plus taming getting a new pet makes saying 'fix ninja animal forms' seem like your picking on ninjas.
Ninja tamer complaints are not just specific to this dragon. There have been complaints about "un-catchable tamers" before
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah but the number of nerfs ninjitsu has had compared to taming, plus taming getting a new pet makes saying 'fix ninja animal forms' seem like your picking on ninjas.
I
imported_Lord GOD(GOD)
Guest
That isn't a fair soloution, tamers get a new pet so ninjitsu gets a penalty?
G
Guest
Guest
Considering the number of time I've said "nerf pet balls first" I don't think that's the case
I have no issues with ninjas whatsoever. I was trying to offer a buffer in case of a stupid fix from EA. I have a newbie ninja myself, so to me it made sense to try offering a fix that wouldn't IMO hurt any normal ninja...
Wenchy
I have no issues with ninjas whatsoever. I was trying to offer a buffer in case of a stupid fix from EA. I have a newbie ninja myself, so to me it made sense to try offering a fix that wouldn't IMO hurt any normal ninja...
Wenchy
I
imported_revenant2
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
Ninja tamer complaints are not just specific to this dragon. There have been complaints about "un-catchable tamers" before
And just for absolute clarity, again, the pet balls should be nerfed first and foremost, anything else I've suggested comes secondary to that, only if it's needed.
Wenchy
[/ QUOTE ]
A number of posters seem certain that changing the behavior of pet balls would insert enough of a fix into the lamer-tamer issue to balance it out.
If the UO people come to agree with this, I'd like to suggest that the change to the behavior of pet balls be tied to the PVP situation itself.
One way to do this could be to make an alternate behavior of pet balls kick in (such as refusal to transport the pet) if the tamer is flagged as an aggressor on another player. This does unbalance the application a bit in that tamers might be super-powerful on the defense side (think: not really PKable), while not being great for aggressive acts. If this is determined to be a desireable imbalance for tamers in the PVP environment then it could be considered.
Another one would be to make the behavior of pet balls when in Fel be outright different from that in Tram. This one can be problematic though because it's not truly linked to the PVP imbalance problem and it'll affect PVM-related pet handling in Fel.
Between the 2 options above, in regards to PVM I like the first one because its impact to Fel PVM would be minimal. There's a problem with it, though. There's a semi-complex issue with EVs and fields. Under the existing flagging setup, a tamer could transform himself into a lamer-tamer with a presumably all-powerful pet ball by deliberately galloping up into fields or EVs.
This isn't an issue of "Oh well you're a red mage, you asked for it by putting those EV's and fields down, didnt you?". The effort here is to fix a PVP balance situation, not punish reds for being red.
The trouble with EVs and fields would exist because the caster of the EV/field becomes the functional victim of a 'lamer tamer' with an all-powerful pet ball. The tamer in this case would have, after all, deliberately run into the EV/field to cause the flagging, so that EV or field clearly did not hurt him very much. The tamer would be using the person's EV or field as a tool to enable his pet ball to be more powerful than was intended for aggressive PVP against that individual, creating a backdoor around the intended fix.
That's the respect in which Fel-wide changes to a pet ball would be a superior solution, as it's going to automatically cover that situation.
.... but whatever you do, I do feel sure that it would be a PR messup to make pet balls become frustrating for people while they are in Tram. This issue is all about Fel, there's no reason to piss off or inconvenience Tram people.
Ninja tamer complaints are not just specific to this dragon. There have been complaints about "un-catchable tamers" before
And just for absolute clarity, again, the pet balls should be nerfed first and foremost, anything else I've suggested comes secondary to that, only if it's needed.
Wenchy
[/ QUOTE ]
A number of posters seem certain that changing the behavior of pet balls would insert enough of a fix into the lamer-tamer issue to balance it out.
If the UO people come to agree with this, I'd like to suggest that the change to the behavior of pet balls be tied to the PVP situation itself.
One way to do this could be to make an alternate behavior of pet balls kick in (such as refusal to transport the pet) if the tamer is flagged as an aggressor on another player. This does unbalance the application a bit in that tamers might be super-powerful on the defense side (think: not really PKable), while not being great for aggressive acts. If this is determined to be a desireable imbalance for tamers in the PVP environment then it could be considered.
Another one would be to make the behavior of pet balls when in Fel be outright different from that in Tram. This one can be problematic though because it's not truly linked to the PVP imbalance problem and it'll affect PVM-related pet handling in Fel.
Between the 2 options above, in regards to PVM I like the first one because its impact to Fel PVM would be minimal. There's a problem with it, though. There's a semi-complex issue with EVs and fields. Under the existing flagging setup, a tamer could transform himself into a lamer-tamer with a presumably all-powerful pet ball by deliberately galloping up into fields or EVs.
This isn't an issue of "Oh well you're a red mage, you asked for it by putting those EV's and fields down, didnt you?". The effort here is to fix a PVP balance situation, not punish reds for being red.
The trouble with EVs and fields would exist because the caster of the EV/field becomes the functional victim of a 'lamer tamer' with an all-powerful pet ball. The tamer in this case would have, after all, deliberately run into the EV/field to cause the flagging, so that EV or field clearly did not hurt him very much. The tamer would be using the person's EV or field as a tool to enable his pet ball to be more powerful than was intended for aggressive PVP against that individual, creating a backdoor around the intended fix.
That's the respect in which Fel-wide changes to a pet ball would be a superior solution, as it's going to automatically cover that situation.
.... but whatever you do, I do feel sure that it would be a PR messup to make pet balls become frustrating for people while they are in Tram. This issue is all about Fel, there's no reason to piss off or inconvenience Tram people.
G
Guest
Guest
I have a concern with allowing tamers to use pet balling if they aren't aggressors. I can imagine stealthy tamer sneaking up and dropping pets because they haven't started any fighting before that point. I think there would still be complaints.
I think the best fix, which prevents any real issue for PvM tamers is to have it like a summoning spell. Words of power, interruptible, casting delay and can't be used in animal form. Ideally it would also have a delay between uses so a tamer can't keep pulling a pet with the balls all the time.
I don't think those rules should only apply in Fel, as a Tram player may enter Fel and find the balls don't work as they'd expect.
Wenchy
I think the best fix, which prevents any real issue for PvM tamers is to have it like a summoning spell. Words of power, interruptible, casting delay and can't be used in animal form. Ideally it would also have a delay between uses so a tamer can't keep pulling a pet with the balls all the time.
I don't think those rules should only apply in Fel, as a Tram player may enter Fel and find the balls don't work as they'd expect.
Wenchy
G
Guest
Guest
I didnt read all but you can in pvp peace discord a greater Dragon and then its weaker then you using the bigest dragon slayer!!!!!
G
Guest
Guest
Aye, but to a PvPer it's ok to loot, but it's bad to lute
Wenchy
Wenchy
Z
Zan186
Guest
The real question is why did they introduce a new Super Dragon to begin with?
It seems that as UO pvp approaches some semblance of balance the Dev's throw a big ol 45lb weight on one side of the scale and the load on the other scale goes flying off into the corner!
If the Dev's learned to tweak things slowly and consistantly this game would be awesome. Instead they throw everything off kilter in mass changes ! Grr, they should all be shot for being knuckle heads!
Ok except Leocrian, he seems to get it!
It seems that as UO pvp approaches some semblance of balance the Dev's throw a big ol 45lb weight on one side of the scale and the load on the other scale goes flying off into the corner!
If the Dev's learned to tweak things slowly and consistantly this game would be awesome. Instead they throw everything off kilter in mass changes ! Grr, they should all be shot for being knuckle heads!
Ok except Leocrian, he seems to get it!
G
Guest
Guest
There was a big tamer gimp issue long before these draggies, as soon as pet balls + runey/kitsune/mare combos arrived. This dragon just kicked off enough of an outcry that the base issue is now being looked at.
I'm happy it's come to a head enough that we get a fix.
Wenchy
I'm happy it's come to a head enough that we get a fix.
Wenchy
I
imported_revenant2
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
I don't think those rules should only apply in Fel, as a Tram player may enter Fel and find the balls don't work as they'd expect.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking the mass disgust that would result outweighs that, what when all the 'trammies' discover one morning that their pet balls are doing deliberately inconvenient things that serve no purpose in Trammel.
It was already disappointing to the 'trammies' to wake up one morning and find their MR gear and certain, otherwise PVP-harmless templates damaged due to what was intended as a PVP fix. I just don't like the sound of doing it to them again.
I don't think those rules should only apply in Fel, as a Tram player may enter Fel and find the balls don't work as they'd expect.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking the mass disgust that would result outweighs that, what when all the 'trammies' discover one morning that their pet balls are doing deliberately inconvenient things that serve no purpose in Trammel.
It was already disappointing to the 'trammies' to wake up one morning and find their MR gear and certain, otherwise PVP-harmless templates damaged due to what was intended as a PVP fix. I just don't like the sound of doing it to them again.
G
Guest
Guest
I don't see much cause concern there, but I'm a very minimal pet ball user.
I just like to keep things the same in both facets to avoid nasty mistakes, but I see where you're coming from
Wenchy
I just like to keep things the same in both facets to avoid nasty mistakes, but I see where you're coming from
Wenchy
A
Azmira Zalof
Guest
<blockquote><hr>
With about 1000 HP the firebreath will only make around 30 points damage against 70 resists. A wild dragon can make up to 60 damage with its firebreath but since the HP are halved upon taming (firebreath damages depends on the Hit points), the damage is halved too. Keep in mind that this is a maximum a greater dragon with 800 hp will only make 24 damage with its firebreath (against 70 resist)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I've had 'em hit me for 52 (yellow numbers above my head showed this number) from something. My suit is 69/70/67/70/70. Want a screenshot?
With about 1000 HP the firebreath will only make around 30 points damage against 70 resists. A wild dragon can make up to 60 damage with its firebreath but since the HP are halved upon taming (firebreath damages depends on the Hit points), the damage is halved too. Keep in mind that this is a maximum a greater dragon with 800 hp will only make 24 damage with its firebreath (against 70 resist)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I've had 'em hit me for 52 (yellow numbers above my head showed this number) from something. My suit is 69/70/67/70/70. Want a screenshot?