The Future of KR Client - Official Dev Statement Please!

[RaDian FlGith]

Define 2D and/or 3D.......

if you clowns really knew the difference, you would realize, 2Dweeb is actually 3D art.....but no....you remain ignorant, that or just plain gullible.

The 2D client is BASED on 3D art, but it is not 3D art. They are sprites with each individual frame in each direction animated, and they only cover 4 of 8 potential facings, which is why your weapons and stuff swap hands.

Which, by the way, also happens in the KR client, and there's only ONE explanation for it. The artwork in the KR client, while higher resolution, is ALSO 2D, frame-animated art that covers 4 of 8 potential facings.

Now, the 2D client technically exists in three dimensions, because you have the isometric perspective, and you can raise stuff up, and the server clearly knows something about height variation, and reports that back to the 2D client, but the 2D client is drawn in two dimensions, with stuff at the top of the screen being drawn before stuff at the bottom.

I imagine that KR is a combination 2D/3D client where much of the landscape actually exists in a 3D environment, but where the artwork and mobs are 2D animated sprites.

Oh, and while were at it, KR looks more marketable than the current tootsie-toy artwork the majority of the playerbase wants. (guess why they don't advertise) The playerbase is at fault.

The playerbase is not at fault for EA's poor choice in art teams, poor choice in implementation, and poor choice in how they developed the KR client. The CONCEPT of the KR client is something that the game SORELY needed. EA, NOT the playerbase, failed to deliver.

Don't blame EA, they made an attempt, and got bashed all to hell for even trying......2Dweeb is all you know, want, and can handle.

Next time you contract someone to do something for you, if it's not to your liking, don't complain. After all, they made an attempt.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I only comment because I logged into 2D while on my old computer and I just want to say: "Guys, come on. That thing is hilarious." Since it is what 2Ders play it is hard for them to see, but I implore 2Ders to look at the clients objectively.

Sorry, but as long as the 2D graphics have detail to them, the 2D graphics will be superior. What I mean is this:

- They did a WONDERFUL job of world-environment graphics such as trees, flowers, et cetera, and that ALWAYS impressed me.

- The graphics for buildings are for some unknown reason WAY thicker than they should be (the 2D metal fence is one key area where this stands out the most).

- The small objects/icons, like statues, spellbooks, et cetera lack definition and are blurry-edged, blurry-detailed.

- SOME of the monsters are much better in KR, but mostly they're out of proportion. Like, when I'm running around on my polar bear, I swear, I look like I'm riding around on a behemoth bear.

But mostly, my complaint is a lack of definition in the graphics.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

...multi key macros seem -really- finicky. (IE CTRL-F1, greater heal, unless I specially pay attention to pressing the keys, F1's macro goes off 90% of the time)
...
Several crash issues that have been around since day 1, time out, relog comes to mind.
...
All in all, looks well enough, but isn't playably by my standards, and is so far a sad example of a years worth of 'updates'.

Agreed completely.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

*bump*

 

[RaDian FlGith]

*bump*

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that was a shameless bump to keep this post alive. Very, very shameless.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that was a shameless bump to keep this post alive. Very, very shameless.

Aye, absolutely shameless!

 

[Erekose]

It would seem that players are expending more effort on KR than Mythic is. Now *that* is shameful...on the part ot Mythic, which can't even seem to be bothered to list UO on their website.

Note: I'm not bashing the dev's. They answer to their management. It's management I have a beef with.

 

[Mistura]

My best guess is that KR will be gradually swept under the carpet.

That being said, I would love to see an official response from devs on whats happening, but I fear its about as likely as an official statement about Stygian Abyss.

 

[Belmarduk]

*friendly bump*

This is a thread which should have been started march - As my account has gone inactive I cant be bothered anymore but am supporting this thread.
Greetings Belmarduk

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I will say that what ticks me off most about the KR client currently is that they already have certain things that require the KR client to do (ie: the tour in New Haven). Some things they are trying to force you to use KR to do -- which would be COMPLETELY fine with me, IF it were a complete, fully functional client that did EVERYTHING the 2D client did. Trouble is, it doesn't, and some of the things it tries to do, the 2D client still does better.

Until they get KR up to snuff, I'm sticking with 2D. Which is ironic, because while I was vehemently supporting the KR client during Beta, everyone was telling me that EA was just going to do another 3D, and I told them they were wrong, this DevTeam was different, so on and so forth. Turns out I was right... this DevTeam IS different. At least the 3D client continued to get support for the first couple of years it was out (admittedly, mostly knee-jerk stuff to try to get it to do stuff to attract more people).

The irony, of course, is that the 3D client -- all of its faults of memory use and hideous graphics aside -- actually had stuff that the 2D client didn't. Dance moves and other emotimoves. Free-form containers. And it also had EVERY bit of 2D's interface in it. You didn't have to worry that something in 2D wouldn't work in 3D.

That's. Not. The. Case. In. KR. :/

 

[Belmarduk]

I will say that what ticks me off most about the KR client currently is that they already have certain things that require the KR client to do (ie: the tour in New Haven). Some things they are trying to force you to use KR to do -- which would be COMPLETELY fine with me, IF it were a complete, fully functional client that did EVERYTHING the 2D client did. Trouble is, it doesn't, and some of the things it tries to do, the 2D client still does better.

Until they get KR up to snuff, I'm sticking with 2D. Which is ironic, because while I was vehemently supporting the KR client during Beta, everyone was telling me that EA was just going to do another 3D, and I told them they were wrong, this DevTeam was different, so on and so forth. Turns out I was right... this DevTeam IS different. At least the 3D client continued to get support for the first couple of years it was out (admittedly, mostly knee-jerk stuff to try to get it to do stuff to attract more people).

The irony, of course, is that the 3D client -- all of its faults of memory use and hideous graphics aside -- actually had stuff that the 2D client didn't. Dance moves and other emotimoves. Free-form containers. And it also had EVERY bit of 2D's interface in it. You didn't have to worry that something in 2D wouldn't work in 3D.

That's. Not. The. Case. In. KR. :/

Good post - Not a single thing I disagree with - Hits the nail on the head 100%

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I wish they would have developed the KR client in the following way:

- Leave ALL functionality of the 2D client as it is (including container handling).
- ADD hotbars and custom macro functionality.
- ADD a few nifty features, like looting an item by right-clicking it.
- ADD additional graphical animations.
- Leave the players the choice to switch between 100% legacy graphics (for users with old computers) and new sophisticated graphics. This should be togglable through an option in the new client. Having 2 different clients is crap.
- And, of course, the new client should REPLACE the old one.

 

[Uvtha]

And, I doubt that only a small portion of players is interested in KR.

If that were the case, there would be no lack of KR development problems. The reason they aren't working on it much if at all (which they clearly are not) is because no one likes it, and no one uses it.

Not that hard to figure out.

 

[Salty Pete]

I wish they would have developed the KR client in the following way:

- Leave ALL functionality of the 2D client as it is (including container handling).
- ADD hotbars and custom macro functionality.
- ADD a few nifty features, like looting an item by right-clicking it.
- ADD additional graphical animations.
- Leave the players the choice to switch between 100% legacy graphics (for users with old computers) and new sophisticated graphics. This should be togglable through an option in the new client. Having 2 different clients is crap.
- And, of course, the new client should REPLACE the old one.

I have a better idea. Why don't you just go play WoW and leave UO to people who like playing UO.

 

[Belmarduk]

I have a better idea. Why don't you just go play WoW and leave UO to people who like playing UO.

Whats your problem?

 

[Vyrquenox]

Perhaps it would go something like this:

We apologize for not learning form the past and created a second client that was only half finished. We also apologize for releasing the client long before it was ready. We will continue to patch KR so that that small portion of the player-base that enjoys it can continue to use the client, however major development of KR is not in the budget. Fear not, we will surely repeat these efforts with a new client in 3-4 years.

I am not interested in apologies, I just want a clear statement about whether or not the KR client has a future, and when we will see appropriate changes/patches.

And, I doubt that only a small portion of players is interested in KR.

Maybe they are smart enough to keep their mouths firmly shut and lips bitten as Cal says about anything they do about KR/SA until it is actually DONE. What would you want them to say that they haven't said? "We will have KR running smoothly by January?" That is how they got in this situation in the first place. If I were them, I wouldn't say one thing about SA either until one of them is holding a master copy, installs the bloody thing, and plays it him/herself. Then they can say, oh by the way, SA is done here you go. Telling us anything about 'sometime then or this timeframe' and then getting forced to release a broken program like turning in a a rough draft of a research paper with a big smile on your face and gritted teeth just doesn't help anyone.
(still haunted by the big hype 'the kingdom is reborn' banner and the subsequent black dungeons and broken interface--imagines a SA release being picked up by an unsuspecting gamer who subscribes and installs it and is immediately told 'we'll have this fixed as soon as we can'.

 

[Deadly Shadow]

I will say that what ticks me off most about the KR client currently is that they already have certain things that require the KR client to do (ie: the tour in New Haven). Some things they are trying to force you to use KR to do -- which would be COMPLETELY fine with me, IF it were a complete, fully functional client that did EVERYTHING the 2D client did. Trouble is, it doesn't, and some of the things it tries to do, the 2D client still does better.

Until they get KR up to snuff, I'm sticking with 2D. Which is ironic, because while I was vehemently supporting the KR client during Beta, everyone was telling me that EA was just going to do another 3D, and I told them they were wrong, this DevTeam was different, so on and so forth. Turns out I was right... this DevTeam IS different. At least the 3D client continued to get support for the first couple of years it was out (admittedly, mostly knee-jerk stuff to try to get it to do stuff to attract more people).

The irony, of course, is that the 3D client -- all of its faults of memory use and hideous graphics aside -- actually had stuff that the 2D client didn't. Dance moves and other emotimoves. Free-form containers. And it also had EVERY bit of 2D's interface in it. You didn't have to worry that something in 2D wouldn't work in 3D.

That's. Not. The. Case. In. KR. :/

Good post - Not a single thing I disagree with - Hits the nail on the head 100%

Totally agree with this post it does Hit the nail on the head.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I have a better idea. Why don't you just go play WoW and leave UO to people who like playing UO.

Now, that's an intelligent and constructive posting!

 

[Arcus]

I wish they would have developed the KR client in the following way:

- Leave ALL functionality of the 2D client as it is (including container handling).
- ADD hotbars and custom macro functionality.
- ADD a few nifty features, like looting an item by right-clicking it.
- ADD additional graphical animations.
- Leave the players the choice to switch between 100% legacy graphics (for users with old computers) and new sophisticated graphics. This should be togglable through an option in the new client. Having 2 different clients is crap.
- And, of course, the new client should REPLACE the old one.

I have a better idea. Why don't you just go play WoW and leave UO to people who like playing UO.

Is that what you REALLY want, because that is what is happening and the more people that leave the less likely it is that UO will continue.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

The fact that we cannot squeeze the slightes innuendo from the Dev team about their KR plans, leads me to the following conclusions:

Either...

1.) EA is planning to re-build the KR client from scratch and make a new, very nifty and nice client (probably combined with the release of Stygian Abyss)

or...

2.) EA is going to dump the KR client for good, writing this project off as a failure, and (if we are lucky) will improve the 2D client a bit without investing much money into the client anymore.

The first conclusion represents my wishful thinking. None of us has a clue about the revenue of UO and EA's internal plans about the game. However, if they'd just plan to continue tampering with the KR client, they could give us a hint about upcoming updates. As we don't receive a hint, I assume that patching around with KR is nothing EA is considering to do anymore.

 

[Llewen]

From what I can gather, they certainly haven't given up on the KR client. It is being worked on along with bug fixes, SA, and the events leading up to SA. There simply isn't enough "bandwidth" to go around (ie. there just aren't enough hours in the day), and this is summer, and the devs do deserve, and need, their vacation time, so things are just progressing more slowly than all of us would like.

I also think that the action required to deal with the latest rash of serious duping has also slowed things down considerably.

I think the KR client is still a very large part of the future plans for UO. I'm just hoping there will be some marketting to go along with SA, and the KR client, as it improves. I'm not as optimistic on this score, but I do think there will be at least some marketting done once a firm release date is set for SA.

 

[Gildar]

If that were the case, there would be no lack of KR development problems. The reason they aren't working on it much if at all (which they clearly are not) is because no one likes it, and no one uses it.

Not that hard to figure out.

The reason they aren't working on it much, if at all, is because there is one and only one client developer working on UO at the moment (as far as I can tell). Thats on developer working on two clients.

 

[Jeremy]

There are a few more than that, but programmers are shy and I haven't gotten around to bullying them into introducing themselves.

 

[Doomsday Dragon]

That's a croc of [censored]

I have a custom built machine, here are the specs (from DXDIAX)

------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 7/28/2008, 10:36:15
Machine name: JIMMYPC
Operating System: Windows XP Professional x64 Edition (5.2, Build 3790) Service Pack 2 (3790.srv03_sp2_gdr.070321-2337)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: System manufacturer
System Model: P5K Premium
BIOS: Default System BIOS
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz (4 CPUs), ~2.4GHz
Memory: 8190MB RAM
Page File: 1693MB used, 8115MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 5.03.3790.3959 64bit Unicode
---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT
Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Chip type: GeForce 8800 GT
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0611&SUBSYS_C8013842&REV_A2
Display Memory: 512.0 MB
Current Mode: 1440 x 900 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: Default Monitor

Yes, I run a 64-bit system and 8 gig's of RAM.

I can run multiple copies of Everquest and WoW at the same time and now lag, even on raids. Yet, A SINGLE instance of KR will lag my system.

Your system must have a problem (unlikely) or KR is not 100% 64bit compatible.

I have a system with an AMD 6000+ dual core processor 3.01ghz x2 cores. Dual 512mb ATI X1950GY video cards and 4gb of ram. I can run multiple instances of KR and not lag.

My guess is that your running KR on that x64 machine and it doesn't like it.

 

[Gildar]

There are a few more than that, but programmers are shy and I haven't gotten around to bullying them into introducing themselves.

I stand corrected.

Hurry up and bully them into introducing themselves so I can bully them into fixing the issues us modders don't think we can fix through Lua alone

 

[NuSair]

There is no reason to run a 64 bit OS unless you need access to huge amounts of RAM. That being said you wouldn't be able to use 8 gig on 32 bit Windows unless you enabled PAE, which would also slow memory access down some because of the overhead of the way it manages the paging tables and the larger page size. Some 32 bit applications actually run quite a bit slower on 64 bit Windows than on the 32 bit flavors. I would love to see how KR runs on your (very nice btw) system with XP or Vista 32 bit.

Have you submitted a bug report? It would be nice if they could optimize it for 64 bit OS flavors as a forward looking endeavor.

I choose to build a system with that much RAM because I run several VM machines, Cisco Virtual Routers/switches/L3 Switches to test out/teach myself/so I don't forget how to setup/maintain large networks.

I have XP-32 bit installed as a virtual machine, I haven't tried running KR through that.

Thanks it was my graduation present to myself.

 

[NuSair]

Another thought... have you tried running it with only letting it use a single core?

I've heard mention that dropping it to a single core tends to improve stability for some dual-core systems...
Also, as Erekose said - have you tried using a 32 bit OS?

I wouldn't be too shocked if it were 64-bit and multi-core compatibility issues.

AFAIK, it only runs on a single core unless the program has been programmed to run on multiple cores (meaning KR).

I haven't tried running it on a 32-bit system on my machine yet, I'll have to give that a try.

 

[Lady Kiara]

I wonder if any one ever ask these questions at the town hall meetings.... or do they give the same answers and dirty looks and move on to the next person

 

[NuSair]

They says something along the lines of:
"That's not something that I/we can comment on because I don't know enough, but once we get back, I'll/we'll be sure to get the answers for you and let you know"

Back at the Atlanta TownHall there were several questions answered like that and of course there was never any answers given.

When they do a townhall meeting, there is an outline of what they wanted to talk about, and the rest is 'muddle through it and don't give real answers or hint at something and get applause'

 

[Gildar]

AFAIK, it only runs on a single core unless the program has been programmed to run on multiple cores (meaning KR).

I haven't tried running it on a 32-bit system on my machine yet, I'll have to give that a try.

Nope. If it has multiple threads, it'll use multiple cores unless it explicitly says "Hey Windows - I only want to use one core" or a user prevents it from using multiple cores (can be done in the task manager - it's called "Processor Affinity").

 

[Erekose]

KR will only use one core, and it runs better if you do indeed set the processor affinity to one of the cores on your system; at least subjectively from my own personal experience.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Your system must have a problem (unlikely) or KR is not 100% 64bit compatible.

I have a system with an AMD 6000+ dual core processor 3.01ghz x2 cores. Dual 512mb ATI X1950GY video cards and 4gb of ram. I can run multiple instances of KR and not lag.

My guess is that your running KR on that x64 machine and it doesn't like it.

Well, I'll tell you this much... On my system, KR runs okay, but the graphic scrolling is semi-choppy (ie... "almost" smooth), and it crashes on all kinds of silly things. This is what I'm running:

------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 8/3/2008, 02:43:06
Machine name: NEXCHRONOSIS
Operating System: Windows Vista™ Ultimate (6.0, Build 6000) (6000.vista_gdr.071023-1545)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: INTEL_
System Model: D975XBX2
BIOS: Default System BIOS
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.40GHz (2 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
Memory: 3068MB RAM
Page File: 2025MB used, 4313MB available
Windows Dir: C:\Windows
DirectX Version: DirectX 10
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 6.00.6000.16386 32bit Unicode

---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT
Manufacturer: ATI Technologies Inc.
Chip type: ATI Radeon Graphics Processor (0x9588)
DAC type: Internal DAC(400MHz)
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9588&SUBSYS_06501092&REV_00
Display Memory: 1778 MB
Dedicated Memory: 500 MB
Shared Memory: 1278 MB
Current Mode: 1680 x 1050 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: SyncMaster 204T/204Ts/204B,SyncMaster Magic CX201Ts(Digital)

Card name: ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT
Manufacturer: ATI Technologies Inc.
Chip type: ATI Radeon Graphics Processor (0x9588)
DAC type: Internal DAC(400MHz)
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9588&SUBSYS_06501092&REV_00
Display Memory: 1778 MB
Dedicated Memory: 500 MB
Shared Memory: 1278 MB
Current Mode: 1600 x 1200 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: SyncMaster 2220WM/G22PW/220WM(Digital)

Now, I don't know about you, but since I run World of Warcraft in the highest resolution possible, with all of my detail sliders full-spec, and I think the only thing I don't run is highest color level (but I'd have to log in to check that), and I run smoothly, and crash, oh, maybe once every other month, and play the game frequently (more frequently than say UO up until recently), and yet I crashed SIX TIMES in ONE HOUR with KR, there might, you know, be something wrong with the KR client?

I'm going to go with "Yes, yes there IS something wrong with the KR client."

 

[RaDian FlGith]

KR will only use one core, and it runs better if you do indeed set the processor affinity to one of the cores on your system; at least subjectively from my own personal experience.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but since KR was programmed long after dual-core processors were out (and since I bought my system just shortly before KR went into beta, and quad-cores were on the shelf, I have to believe they must have known about quad-cores), any program that is designed to run on a single core, and not take advantage of potential power in front of it is bad design.

But, all of that aside, if what you suggest is true, and it runs better if you set its affinity to a single core, that's EXTREMELY poor design. Any program that requires you to tweak your system to get it to run properly is poorly programmed.