Spy Cams! Come on Devs!...

[Guest]

Im so tired of this, and it just happend again when me and two freinds from guild were doing Barracon spawn in T2A!

Boss spawn and from nowhere these bola casting necros and stealth archers from the same guild as allways comes! A guy from their guild even said they use spawn cams!.. they come everytime boss spawn in t2a! its so annoying when you worked spawn for some time.

Do something please!

 

[Guest]

seems they just leave ghosts on sepertate monitors at the spawn sites... then just keep an eye out for action....guess if theres 5-5 in a guild they only need to watch one each then icq the others when anything is happening, seems a ghost unlike a living char wont log out after a 'idle' time period...though surely this would be very easy to fix....

 

[Llewen]

This is what they need to fight spy cams. I've said this before, but I'll say this again. Every champ spawn area needs a "patrol" that at random times (say between 5 and 40 minutes), walks through area. Every patrol should have a "scout", or "hunter" of some sort (maybe the patrols should be tied to the next champ that will be spawning there for the random spawns, the devs could use their imagination and have some fun with this).

The "scout" would have gm tracking, detect hidden and reveal, and would constantly be looking for hidden players, and should reveal them when it finds them. The patrol should be aggressive, and be strong enough, and have a.i. robust enough to defeat any auto defending player (or scripted auto defending player), even ones with uber equipment, but not so strong that it causes a serious problem for any group working the spawn.

Every patrol should also include a mob with necromancy skills that can exorcise the player ghosts after they are killed. I realize that this could cause problems for players that die legitimately working the spawns, however, it would be a small price, in my opinion, to pay for fixing what is really a very serious problem in the game.

This would, I believe, defeat the spawn cams. It would require some effort on the part of the devs, but I seriously think it would be worth it. Although I've said this before as well, any serious attempt to tackle the cheating problem also needs to include some anti-cheat functionality similar to Punk Buster, or Valve's VAC, or Blizzard's anti-cheat engine.

I'm going to post this in the ideas forum as well.

 

[Guest]

The theory of a 'spy cam', that is using a char to watch someone else spawn, hidden, stealthed etc... is NOT ILLEGAL. So if I log on my char to watch (for example) marble while someone is doing it, then come in at the end on a different account with guildies to crash them, there is NOTHING wrong with that. This is Fel remember, where NON-CONC PvP is aloud...

What IS wrong with 'spawn cams' is when ILLEGAL programs/scripts do the above WITHOUT player interaction. However this is not the fault of spawns, PKs, whatever. It is the fault of <unmentionable program name> and the people who would use said program.

The fix to your problems with automated spawn cams is the same fix for the issues UO faces with script miners, lumberjacks, gold farmers etc... that is removal of this program.


I will say again though, that watching someone doing a spawn (basically what a spawn cam is) is not illegal.

 

[_Uriah Heep_]

Once again, the fix for the future is linked to the past.

Upon death, a char gets booted to town, random town.
And said char (or entire account) cannot re-enter the spawn area for 30 minutes.

End of ghost cams, period. Nothing fancy, nothing unheard of, just take it back like it was at one time in history.

I remember working spawns with a couple of guilds I was in. We would end up lined up at the entrance waiting on the timer to let us back in

.

Seriously, there are so many problems right now, that could be simply fixed by looking to our history, rather than trying to write and program elaborate fixes.

I don't accept the fact that this will destroy spawning either, getting booted upon death. Go in with what you can afford to lose, Insure the rest, and do some teamwork to stay healed and alive.

Nuff said.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

End of ghost cams, period.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most cams are now living. Ghost cams stopped being useful when exorcism was introduced over 2 years ago.

If it was made so you could remove dead logged out player even if they had a corpse, then it would cut the amount of time in half it takes to exorcise a cam. As it stands now, you can kill a cam and the next time they login they will be alerted and shut off the script, preventing your from removing any more.

 

[Sir Morder]

How about have a necro go into the spawn area first before you and your party start the spawn and have the necro exorcise and ghost cams he can find. I know this isn't a solution but at least if the necro see's a ghost you know right away the raid is comin'.

 

[_Uriah Heep_]

Wrong point.

Don't worry about removing the ghost if he still has a corpse...The point is, when that char died, the ghost was instantly teleported to a town for 30 minute rez and timeout before re-entry into spawn area.

 

[Tark_Smash]

Devs dont care, it has been talked about forever. Best thing you can do is go get a bunch of free accounts, set up your own ghost cams. Apparently that is what they are for, its one of those nice 'features' that they gave us.

 

[Nerf-Herder]

Ya, It's not like we have scads of new players using those things...

 

[Larisa]

I used to run around tracking, revealing and killing ALL of the spawn cams on Origin. Chars named Destard, Star, Barra, Despise, ICU (That one made me laugh) But they were always back up and running very quickly.


Now I can see one person with several accounts logging in to one char per account, I used to do that, I had one account dedicated to *ghost cams* We had 4 ppl in our guild that had the same. In vent we'd be all *Hey check your sanctum ghost I think someone's tryin to pull a spawn off there*

*you got a cam at khaldun? I see 3rd lvl spawn but I don't wanna get any closer*

so it IS very possible to do it without scripting, I'd sit and watch 3 ppl do an entire spawn (Very boring!) and then say *okay they got 2 candles left till the champs up, everyone come now* Log off my "cam" log into my other account who was already close enough and go raid.

Unless they can legally scan for actively running scripting programs, there's no PROOF. Sad..yes....frusterating, YES! BUT without something like PunkBuster or GameGuard or..whatever...it's not gonna happen, the legality of programs such as PunkBuster and GameGuard make us as players SCREAM about our privacy *I ain't gonna let you look in my hard drive no way*

So what can you do?? KR was and still is implementing various ways to combat scripting, with the words of Draconi at the last HoC about housing and the next patch hoping to combat that, things are looking up, so we'll just have to be patient and HOPE that this gets resolved in a timely manner.

 

[Guest]

I thought they'd given us a solution already in the form of high enough Spirit Speak to see the ghosts even if they are tabbed out, and the spell Exorcism to send them away. Does this not work?

---Edit: In the time it took me to forget to hit the button, go do something, and come back, apparantly others had already mentioned this. Well, I echo their sentiments, and still ask why this doesn't work.

 

[Guest]

Don't think exorcism works if the ghosts are timed out. And that doesn't fix the problem of stealth cams, only ghosts.

 

[Guest]

If the ghost is timed out, it is not logged in; so, nobody watching.

As for live ones, track, reveal, area effect, 'splodey pot, and generally make life harder for those 'cams' that are not yet dead.

Or did you expect to not have to deal with other players in the Players V. Players area?

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

The theory of a 'spy cam', that is using a char to watch someone else spawn, hidden, stealthed etc... is NOT ILLEGAL. So if I log on my char to watch (for example) marble while someone is doing it, then come in at the end on a different account with guildies to crash them, there is NOTHING wrong with that. This is Fel remember, where NON-CONC PvP is aloud...

What IS wrong with 'spawn cams' is when ILLEGAL programs/scripts do the above WITHOUT player interaction. However this is not the fault of spawns, PKs, whatever. It is the fault of &lt;unmentionable program name&gt; and the people who would use said program.

The fix to your problems with automated spawn cams is the same fix for the issues UO faces with script miners, lumberjacks, gold farmers etc... that is removal of this program.


I will say again though, that watching someone doing a spawn (basically what a spawn cam is) is not illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]





But then what youn suggest requires that we stretch our imaginations a bit doesn't it?


Just like it stretches our imagination that someone who collects bods on 13 chars every hour on the hour 24 hours a day 7 days a week sorts and then fills the 4000 plus bods BY HAND that their automated operation nets them weekly.


We have to believe that just like the person filling those 4000 bods BY HAND while attended, you do nothing else in UO except sit on a dead character at 1 little old champ spawn area, and your guildies must all do the same so that all the spawning areas are watched 24/7.


How many champ areas are there?


What does your guild run?


Three "dead" shifts of eight hours each?


Eight hours in a silent grey world just standing around watching IN CASE someone else comes along to try to spawn?



Sounds like lots of fun.



How many guildies does it take to run a legal 24/7 operation like that? Three shifts times X chmap spawns.



How big is your guild?

 

[_Uriah Heep_]

They still don't get it.

It isnt a problem, the ghosts arent there under my plan. when the char died, the ghost was teleported immediately. And no ghosts allowed to enter the area, either.

Live stealth cams, game on! Fair and square, not a problem. they can be revealed, fields do damage to em, they are jsut another player...

 

[Guest]

Perhaps this is being looked at the situation a little backwards. Should there even be an expectation of doing a spawn secretly? Aren't they there as a PvP lure to begin with? If so, wouldn't it make more sense to simply have a facet-wide broadcast "hey! someone is doing a spawn!"

 

[Guest]

I'm not saying that 'cams' are not a problem, or that the solutions in place are perfect; I'm just saying it doesn't sound like a lot of folks are willing to do all they CAN before they scream for a new system.

In fact, when they added Exorcism, and the ability to see tabbed-out (hidden) ghosts, they told us they did it that way because they prefer not to get in the way of player justice. They'd like us to fight our own battles.

Now, that doesn't mean they like scripting - only that they no longer see a reason to eject ghosts.

I would support it if dying booted you, but I never liked the 20-minute timer. It creates a barrier to PvP when you know every time you die you are gonna lose anything that's left on your corpse for sure, if it isn't looted, it's decayed; and on top of that, you are out of the game for a lot longer than it takes to grab some more bandages.

But, yeah, give ghosts the boot! No timer, just send them to Chaos Shrine. That's a lovely punishment - everyone gets a free ride to a res-kill!

 

[imported_Anakena]

<blockquote><hr>

The theory of a 'spy cam', that is using a char to watch someone else spawn, hidden, stealthed etc... is NOT ILLEGAL. So if I log on my char to watch (for example) marble while someone is doing it, then come in at the end on a different account with guildies to crash them, there is NOTHING wrong with that. This is Fel remember, where NON-CONC PvP is aloud...

What IS wrong with 'spawn cams' is when ILLEGAL programs/scripts do the above WITHOUT player interaction. However this is not the fault of spawns, PKs, whatever. It is the fault of &lt;unmentionable program name&gt; and the people who would use said program.

The fix to your problems with automated spawn cams is the same fix for the issues UO faces with script miners, lumberjacks, gold farmers etc... that is removal of this program.


I will say again though, that watching someone doing a spawn (basically what a spawn cam is) is not illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You summarize very well the situation. I would just add, that EA has decided to not go after spawncams and let them work. They decided instead to make the game "less spawncam friendly" by introducing the exorcism spell.

 

[5% Luck]

The way I get around this is I go to a secondary spawn work it to lvl 2 then move to a safer location to throw off an attempt as raiding. Most time communications get messed up and half the raiders go to the 1st location and the rest are easily delt with.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Wrong point.

Don't worry about removing the ghost if he still has a corpse...The point is, when that char died, the ghost was instantly teleported to a town for 30 minute rez and timeout before re-entry into spawn area.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are the one missing the point. Either you will never see the cam or you will kill it. Either way, they know you are doing a spawn. If players were allowed to instantly eject logged out ghosts then people would be able to go around and hunt for cams. It would seriously disrupt the ability to operate them. Right now it is also possible but extremely tedious because you have to wait ~20 minutes to remove one.

 

[imported_revenant2]

IMO a good way to handle this is proactive enforcement of the existing TOS (an actual spawn cam network is bannable due to the necessity of it being run by unapproved 3rd party programs).

I can't picture that anyone is sitting there with multiple clients opened up watching dead person views of the altar, that's just not what they do.

I don't believe the spawn cam accounts are necessarily logged in all the time. They log in and then get the candle count and spawn type and then log back out (and are subject to the log-out timer, but yeah). The time that passes between log-ins may be variable. The best spawn cams deliver the information to the players in real-time through utilities that show text within the game itself (but by their nature are not visible to GMs).

I feel sure that if GMs were directed to proactively look into it, they would be able to identify and remove spawn cams. It starts with a gm watching a champ altar for 10 minutes to see the cam account log in. And if one isn't noted within 10 minutes, the GM would want to check back later - spawn cam systems do go up and down due to issues of their own, they aren't perfect.

Once seen, the account may log in and out so fast that the interactions that a GM would like to do with a player to verify being attended aren't possible. If something is doing this repeatedly, it should be clear enough that an unapproved 3rd party tool is being used without those kinds of interactions being necessary.

Ongoing removal of the accounts that are used do this would put an end to this kind of spawn-cam cheating but it would have to be proactive, regular checking for them.

If they absolutely had to do it through game mechanics, it's important to keep in mind that the spawn cams gain enough information for good reporting just from seeing the monsters that spawn in an activated champ. Just blocking view of the candles doesn't cut it.

One idea to handle the hiding-based cams: if a living char is located in a champ spawn area and it was logged out, but now logs in, it could auto-unhide and be unable to re-hide for a while. This would amount to extreme inconvenience to how spawn cams work and should make them not possible in the long-term. It would penalize legitimate stealther-hider characters who happened to lose connection, but that impact does not seem huge.

One idea to handle the ghost-based cams: make ghosts who are within a champ spawn area be unable to see either the spawn or the candles. This would need to work both for a fresh log-in and for a ghost that's running across the spawn area boundry. It would be a significant change in that it takes the new position that regarding champ spawns, being dead is not intended to be a powerful, invulnerable spawn spy mode. Being dead is... dead... and you're supposed to be looking for a rez.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

I used to run around tracking, revealing and killing ALL of the spawn cams on Origin. Chars named Destard, Star, Barra, Despise, ICU (That one made me laugh) But they were always back up and running very quickly.


Now I can see one person with several accounts logging in to one char per account, I used to do that, I had one account dedicated to *ghost cams* We had 4 ppl in our guild that had the same. In vent we'd be all *Hey check your sanctum ghost I think someone's tryin to pull a spawn off there*

*you got a cam at khaldun? I see 3rd lvl spawn but I don't wanna get any closer*

so it IS very possible to do it without scripting, I'd sit and watch 3 ppl do an entire spawn (Very boring!) and then say *okay they got 2 candles left till the champs up, everyone come now* Log off my "cam" log into my other account who was already close enough and go raid.

Unless they can legally scan for actively running scripting programs, there's no PROOF. Sad..yes....frusterating, YES! BUT without something like PunkBuster or GameGuard or..whatever...it's not gonna happen, the legality of programs such as PunkBuster and GameGuard make us as players SCREAM about our privacy *I ain't gonna let you look in my hard drive no way*

So what can you do?? KR was and still is implementing various ways to combat scripting, with the words of Draconi at the last HoC about housing and the next patch hoping to combat that, things are looking up, so we'll just have to be patient and HOPE that this gets resolved in a timely manner.

[/ QUOTE ]





Larisa! I am surprised at you!


You know we aren't allowed to accuse people by name.


Shame, shame.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

Perhaps this is being looked at the situation a little backwards. Should there even be an expectation of doing a spawn secretly? Aren't they there as a PvP lure to begin with? If so, wouldn't it make more sense to simply have a facet-wide broadcast "hey! someone is doing a spawn!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad idea... it just enourages immense swarm guilds that overpower everyone else that's doing spawns. Trying t pull off a spawn under the radar is fun... Your idea would kill that and create the other abuse I've already mentioned.

The real solution is to kick/ban characters from spawns for 15 minutes or so every time they time out at a champ spawn. This would force cammers to keep their cams logged in.

Also, exorcised ghosts should be banned from spawn areas for 15 minutes too. They don't have a corpse, so there's no issue there. As things are now, all an exo'd ghost has to do is res and use a runebook to recall back to the spawn to be back in action. A lot of people have this whole process automated.

 

[imported_Gwendar-SP]

Since there are bots that mine, lumberjack, collect bod, ect I find if easy to visualize someone with a scrip to log on free accounts in rotation to spy on champ spawns. I can even even imagine a scrip that beeps to tell the owner when activitity takes place so they don't have to watch the screen.

 

[Llewen]

I guess I should add, if you are killed by the patrol you can be exorcised immediately - no waiting for your corpse to decay, other than that everything works as it currently does.

 

[sean_lo]

Here's a simpler suggestion...

Create a "graveyard" area. Whenever a ghost wanders to a champ spawn, they get sent to the graveyard immediately. There should be a static healer there that will res and freeze the ghost.

 

[Paris_Hilton]

<blockquote><hr>

Here's a simpler suggestion...

Create a "graveyard" area. Whenever a ghost wanders to a champ spawn, they get sent to the graveyard immediately. There should be a static healer there that will res and freeze the ghost.

[/ QUOTE ]




But what if you are killed by the champ spawn and are a ghost for an honest reason?


Wouldn't something like that be punishing you for dying to the spawn?

 

[Arcus]

RTLPFC -

They need to go back to ghosts getting kicked out of champ dungeons immediately. Problem solved.

 

[Guest]

I don't PvP/Spawn and, frankly, I didn't read the whole thread, so take these 'ideas' with a grain of salt. I'm not even sure if the devs feel that anything is wrong with the system as it is currently.

First off, I see nothing wrong with live spawn cams, there exists a widely available method to handle them(personal choice of not wanting to go red withstanding).
Dead Spawn Cams on the other hand seem to have a much more specialized method of handling them(GM Necro/Exor).
- If there were a couple other skills that could remove bodyless ghosts from spawn areas that might seem more balanced. Possibly Chivalry, Magery, &amp; maybe Bushido spells(Was trying to include as many templates as possible, left out Taming and Ninjitsu on purpose).
- Automatic removal of Ghosts upon log out/in to set/random towns might be another possibility.
- Automatic removal of Bodyless Ghosts could also be another Possibility.

Although I don't participate in these activities at all, I'd much rather have other players enjoy the game by playing as opposed to some enjoying the game by just watching multiple monitors. That kind of takes some of the randomness/chance out of it.

 

[Belmarduk]

<blockquote><hr>

The theory of a 'spy cam', that is using a char to watch someone else spawn, hidden, stealthed etc... is NOT ILLEGAL. So if I log on my char to watch (for example) marble while someone is doing it, then come in at the end on a different account with guildies to crash them, there is NOTHING wrong with that. This is Fel remember, where NON-CONC PvP is aloud...

What IS wrong with 'spawn cams' is when ILLEGAL programs/scripts do the above WITHOUT player interaction. However this is not the fault of spawns, PKs, whatever. It is the fault of &lt;unmentionable program name&gt; and the people who would use said program.

The fix to your problems with automated spawn cams is the same fix for the issues UO faces with script miners, lumberjacks, gold farmers etc... that is removal of this program.


I will say again though, that watching someone doing a spawn (basically what a spawn cam is) is not illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the point !
Best and simplest solution to kill ALL scripts = Have a minor change in the source-code EVERY day - After serverdown the client has a minute patch and voilla

Its principally the same has with digital television - The tv-company changes the code a few times a day and it gets VERY hard for certain people to keep up with the code.

This really would be the simplest solution and would kill 99% of scripting and cheating

 

[Arcus]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

The theory of a 'spy cam', that is using a char to watch someone else spawn, hidden, stealthed etc... is NOT ILLEGAL. So if I log on my char to watch (for example) marble while someone is doing it, then come in at the end on a different account with guildies to crash them, there is NOTHING wrong with that. This is Fel remember, where NON-CONC PvP is aloud...

What IS wrong with 'spawn cams' is when ILLEGAL programs/scripts do the above WITHOUT player interaction. However this is not the fault of spawns, PKs, whatever. It is the fault of &lt;unmentionable program name&gt; and the people who would use said program.

The fix to your problems with automated spawn cams is the same fix for the issues UO faces with script miners, lumberjacks, gold farmers etc... that is removal of this program.


I will say again though, that watching someone doing a spawn (basically what a spawn cam is) is not illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the point !
Best and simplest solution to kill ALL scripts = Have a minor change in the source-code EVERY day - After serverdown the client has a minute patch and voilla

Its principally the same has with digital television - The tv-company changes the code a few times a day and it gets VERY hard for certain people to keep up with the code.

This really would be the simplest solution and would kill 99% of scripting and cheating

[/ QUOTE ]

Yay someone gets it!!!

 

[Guest]

If they could do that, it would be great!

 

[Dread Raven]

I am not a fan of ghost cam scripts, but i see quite a few flaws with your theories.

1) Teleporting ghosts to be immediately rezzed.
a) What if it's a large scale batlle among two guilds for the control of the champ. In PvP, you rez your guildmate on the field during the battle creating rez points. So you would no longer be able to effectively fight over a champ spawn. This kills the PvP for guilds battling it out.
b) Your ghosts would be teleported to towns or grave yards. What would stop a guild from camping this location and killing the rez's! It would apply mainly to blues being safe and not reds if you make a guard zone! Bad enough T2A has no red healers as it is.
c) How would you get your stuff off your body before it decays!

2) Ghosts at Spawns.
a) You can exercise them when you locate them. All you need is a Necro. I believe that was EA's fix on the problem.
b)Maybe expand the tiles around the alter again to encompass the whole spawn area.

3) Scripts.
a) I believe if EA placed a 30 day limited access on all 14 day free trial accounts, it would solve the problem.
b) Better yet if they could counter the scripters, it would be even better. They now what programs are used, they just have to figure out how to beat them.

Most spawn scouts today are stealthers. The days of ghost cams are almost gone. I can scout all of T2a in 10 minutes on one toon. Let alone when you have 2 to 5 people splitting it up every 30 minutes. You have all spawns checked in less then 5 minutes.

Like I said earlier, I am no fan of ghost cams. My guild does not employ them or promote them. Our members take turns scouting and we do it on accounts we actively play on.

 

[imported_Anakena]

<blockquote><hr>


Most spawn scouts today are stealthers. The days of ghost cams are almost gone. I can scout all of T2a in 10 minutes on one toon. Let alone when you have 2 to 5 people splitting it up every 30 minutes. You have all spawns checked in less then 5 minutes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you don't send the scout making the same tour every 15 minutes during all the day. That is where spawncams are efficient: no way to sneak a spawn

 

[agpga]

why dont they just make it so you have to work a certain percent of each level of the champ spawn to get any scrolls. PvP ers could still raid but at least the ones who started the spawn would have a chance to get the scrolls and get away. It is a very simple solution but then again the Dev teams likes to make things difficult.

 

[rolan69vw]

I personaly e-mailed Jeremy about this. Never got an aswer. But wait till you learn how they spy on your spawns. its ridiculous they wount do anything about it. I include link for another thread on this: Spy Cams, How they work Read and you will be amazed at how unfair this practice is.

I myself gave UO a chance to fix it but as of now my account is canceled and I am only waiting for the month to expire to leave the Game. TY EA for making me quit UO. I include another thread with a poll for a fix to this: Poll on Spy Cam Fix EA never did anything about it. In my opinion, this practice is even worse than Duping because it directly works in detriment of the playing experience of the Honest UO Player. Best of luck on this.

Rolan

 

[sean_lo]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Here's a simpler suggestion...

Create a "graveyard" area. Whenever a ghost wanders to a champ spawn, they get sent to the graveyard immediately. There should be a static healer there that will res and freeze the ghost.

[/ QUOTE ]




But what if you are killed by the champ spawn and are a ghost for an honest reason?


Wouldn't something like that be punishing you for dying to the spawn?

[/ QUOTE ]

How does it punish the honest player? You get ressed at the graveyard. 0_o

 

[Kat SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Once again, the fix for the future is linked to the past.

Upon death, a char gets booted to town, random town.
And said char (or entire account) cannot re-enter the spawn area for 30 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed!