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Specific situation of abuse of discording pets in PVP

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Llewen

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Or maybe I just don't agree with you and your friends. I've asked you umpteen times to tell me how players should defend against you at Yew gate, yet you squirm away from the question repeatedly.
I have a very specific reason for that. I know how it can be done, and I know it can be done, but I have enemies that read these boards, and I'm not inclined to make their job easier for them... ;)

Sorry, but I saw a pretty sucky tamer take out 5+ reds solo and none came close to doing real damage to him. This was someone who when I flagged by attacking his mare, didn't have the noddle to attack me with his runey or spells.
Those reds were either not very bright, didn't know what they were doing, or that "sucky tamer" was quite a bit better than you gave him credit for...

Don't assume that because I don't respond to a specific point that I don't have a response to, or that I am somehow conceding your point or agreeing with you. GOD called me an idiot not too many posts up, and I haven't responded to that either. It should be clear that I don't agree with him on that, and believe me, if I was inclined to, I could let him have it with both barrels, but what I might have to say would probably get me banned from these boards, and that isn't something that interests me at this point. However, if I meet him in game, and I know who he is, he won't find me half so pleasant...

As it stands on these boards, the tamer haters that agree with him will think he's some kind of hero, while I would hope others, with some intelligence and objectivity, will find it pretty clear from what he has to say, and how he says it, what kind of person he is. I really don't need to say much, what he says speaks for itself...
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
GOD called me an idiot not too many posts up, and I haven't responded to that either.
As it stands on these boards, the tamer haters that agree with him will think he's some kind of hero, while I would hope others, with some intelligence and objectivity, will find it pretty clear from what he has to say, and how he says it, what kind of person he is.
It is because your posts have had no objectivity that no one is agreeing with you. Your first reply that was anything to do with me you said "Yes he has made some good points" then followed it up with your usual standard of name calling.

You claim you don't want the devs to listen to the complaints, yet what exactly is it you think the OP is doing? He is complaining about bards. You talk of intelligence when you so clearly lack it. The others are not wrong when they say as I have said you avoid discussing whats actually said and reply to what you 'heard'.

"what kind of person he is"

lol, what kind of person anyone is has nothing to do with any topic about a game, your the only person making personal attacks on people, you trolled a thread you support while doing it.
 
S

Scratch

Guest
all kill is not skill
never was
never will be
it will always be considered a template to bring trammies to fel

disco should flag the agressor in any case
but if the trammy didnt bring his pet for an all kill button mashing session
he wouldnt have anything to cry about

tamers are the most ******** pvp template out there
360>720
120tame vet lore, a bola, and a super drag will kill almost anyone instantly
they cast fast with several special moves and continue to hit you even after you are screen away
the new mare is the same way

but the tamers cry most so the tamers get the most

*wants a 900 hp shield for my dexxer*
 
C

CKTC

Guest
Do you feel threatened by the devs basing their decisions on something concrete, as opposed to prejudice, hysteria, and outright lies?
When you reply to a quote what you say is spose to actually be something to do with what youve quoted this isnt and neither is what you said to wenchy. Heres an example: "do you feel threatened..." no i dont. namely because the only concrete information a dev could deduce from this thread is from the tamer haters as you call em. got it? it's NOT "do you feel threatened..." 1+1=36 REPEAT it's NOT "do you feel threatened..." 1+1=36 :scholar:
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
...
but the tamers cry most so the tamers get the most
QFT

Their always asking for other skills to be nerfed when their the only ones that need it. When the problem was pet balls they tried to get ninjitsu to take a follower slot now their trying to blame the NEED for discordance vs their OTT pets on the bards.
 

Llewen

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Your first reply that was anything to do with me you said "Yes he has made some good points" then followed it up with your usual standard of name calling.
See when I call you a tamer hater, it is clearly true, you've admitted it yourself, the quote is there in my sig for all to read. When you call me an idiot, it's a childish insult, and I know it isn't true... ;)

lol, what kind of person anyone is has nothing to do with any topic about a game, your the only person making personal attacks on people, you trolled a thread you support while doing it.
So you tell me, is the person telling the truth a troll, or is the person calling someone else an idiot a troll? I'll leave that to you to decide.

the only concrete information a dev could deduce from this thread is from the tamer haters as you call em. got it?
There is no concrete information in this thread anywhere, with a few minor exceptions (the numbers on the effects of discord on skills were pretty concrete, that's about it). For the most part this thread is filled with opinions, absolutely none of which would stand up by itself, in a court of law, or any scholarly publication.

When I am talking about "concrete information", I mean solid stats, gathered by the devs on things like kd ratios for templates with taming vs kd ratios for templates with no taming, what the skill breakdowns for the various templates are, and their comparative kd ratios. I'm talking about game hours spent pvp'ing for the various templates in comparison to each other.

I'm talking about devs getting concrete information, either first hand, or from other objective employees about what is actually going on at spawns, or at Yew gate, or in factions, or wherever, to see if there are templates that are dominating other templates, and if they are how are they doing it, and what tactics are they using?

I'm talking about real, objective information, not hearsay from parties with an obvious axe to grind, whether it is the tamer haters, or the pvp tamers themselves. It's that kind of information I was wondering if you felt threatened by? I can't imagine how you would, because if you are right, which you are so clearly convinced you are, then the concrete statistics and data should back you up.

My guess is, any objective statistics gathered, wouldn't support your point of view, so perhaps you should feel threatened... ;)
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
See when I call you a tamer hater, it is clearly true, you've admitted it yourself, the quote is there in my sig for all to read. When you call me an idiot, it's a childish insult, and I know it isn't true... ;)
The difference is that I hate tamers for reasons, reasons you don't know and haven't bothered to find out, where as my reasons for calling you an idiot are because I've both read the rubbish you post plus name calling is on your level so it should sink in.

So you tell me, is the person telling the truth a troll, or is the person calling someone else an idiot a troll? I'll leave that to you to decide.
You haven't told any truth. It's why no one agrees with you.

There is no concrete information in this thread anywhere, with a few minor exceptions (the numbers on the effects of discord on skills were pretty concrete, that's about it). For the most part this thread is filled with opinions, absolutely none of which would stand up by itself, in a court of law, or any scholarly publication.
lol, in a court of law? It's a message board for a game. Your ridiculousness is astounding.

When I am talking about "concrete information", I mean solid stats, gathered by the devs on things like kd ratios for templates with taming vs kd ratios for templates with no taming, what the skill breakdowns for the various templates are, and their comparitive kd ratios. I'm talking about game hours spent pvp'ing for the various templates in comparison to each other.
lol, so your talking about information that no dev is ever going to post. Great idea.

I'm talking about real, objective information, not hearsay from parties with an obvious axe to grind, whether it is the tamer haters, or the pvp tamers themselves. It's that kind of information I was wondering if you felt threatened by? I can't imagine how you would, because if you are right, which you are so clearly convinced you are, then the concrete statistics and data should back you up.
Your 'concrete statistics' don't exist. Do you really think they've got someone employed to look at any of that stuff when they barely even have anyone employed to answer CS pages.
 

Orvago

Stratics' Finest
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I know there was already a thread about this, but I figured this was a specific enough example to put out here.

There was a blue tamer who went to Yew gate with a superdragon. A warrior saw this and duel cliented his blue bard and brought it. The dual-cliented bard would discord the pet (and not be flagged in any respect for this) and then he would set the duel cliented bard to auto follow the pet. He would then have his warrior running around with a dragon slayer weapon, and he was able to very quickly kill the superdragon in these conditions.

No single template of course carries full barding abilities plus full warrior abilities. To my knowledge it is cheating to duel client this way, but this kind of cheating does not seem stoppable in the current environment.

It seems clear that discording a blue's pet must make the bard crim + aggro against both pet and owner, and discording a red's pet should be the same minus the crim flag. For it to be possible for a tamer to be in guardzone with a dual-cliented, auto-following, blue discorder attached to his pet makes no sense.

As it is now, outside of the guardzone, blues would have to take a count to remove the bard from the situation (and see, a discorded pet may still have what it takes to kill a bard but NOT the person's warrior). The pet won't attack the discorder automatically, which is also a complication. The dual clienting issue isn't all that significant in this determination but it's an example of the extent to which it can be abused right now.

Discord is to a tamer what an extreme but focused curse would be to a warrior or mage. Imagine if players could discord one another's combat skills, and then "kill" the player halfway in this state, so that his primary combat abilities were 0 and all he had was whatever parts of the template were left without his offense. Then, the player would then have to go get a partial ressurection to fix himself. This is precisely the situation that discord bards present for unmounted PVP tamers right now.

If discord is to be able to work offensively against pets (which is in itself a question which could be considered seperately), it's clear that it must flag the bard appropriately.

Okays, let's not delve any further in the quarrel here. Quoting the original post in hopes to get this thread away from word slinging and the almost imminent pad lock.

I might trim up this thread if the quarrels continue, for now.. it's as is.

Thanks! :)
 
C

CKTC

Guest
There is no concrete information in this thread anywhere, with a few minor exceptions (the numbers on the effects of discord on skills were pretty concrete, that's about it). For the most part this thread is filled with opinions, absolutely none of which would stand up by itself, in a court of law, or any scholarly publication.
Yet the only person to mention concrete information was you so your now saying even your own posts have none, what are you talking about scholarly publications for its like your on a different planet to the rest of us.

When I am talking about "concrete information", I mean solid stats, gathered by the devs on things like kd ratios for templates with taming vs kd ratios for templates with no taming, what the skill breakdowns for the various templates are, and their comparative kd ratios. I'm talking about game hours spent pvp'ing for the various templates in comparison to each other.
:lol: They got devs doing that on your planet then?

I'm talking about devs getting concrete information, either first hand, or from other objective employees about what is actually going on at spawns, or at Yew gate, or in factions, or wherever, to see if there are templates that are dominating other templates, and if they are how are they doing it, and what tactics are they using?

I'm talking about real, objective information, not hearsay from parties with an obvious axe to grind, whether it is the tamer haters, or the pvp tamers themselves. It's that kind of information I was wondering if you felt threatened by? I can't imagine how you would, because if you are right, which you are so clearly convinced you are, then the concrete statistics and data should back you up.

My guess is, any objective statistics gathered, wouldn't support your point of view, so perhaps you should feel threatened... ;)
Oh i do i feel threatened that whatever planet your from may attack Earth and have us belving bull**** for thousands of years!
 

Wenchkin

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I have a very specific reason for that. I know how it can be done, and I know it can be done, but I have enemies that read these boards, and I'm not inclined to make their job easier for them... ;)
Well see that's making your life easier, but it's not really helping me to see you as a true victim.

Those reds were either not very bright, didn't know what they were doing, or that "sucky tamer" was quite a bit better than you gave him credit for...
Well I've seen similar situations where a tamer did plenty damage with little response until the bard arrived. I don't really rate the intelligence levels round Yew gate, as we both know the pond life that hangs there, but at the same time, why was it a bard they brought in? Why are bards attacking you when you're killable without that?

I think I might know how you're killable, but I didn't think it would still work these days. Assuming said method is legal of course, I'm sure there are several naughty ones on certain websites lol.

Don't assume that because I don't respond to a specific point that I don't have a response to, or that I am somehow conceding your point or agreeing with you.
I fully appreciate that, however I'm trying to listen to both sides here, and hoping to get some meaningful discussion between the "all kill = no skill" brigade posts. I know about the PvPers side of things when they meet you guys, but the only way you'll really get support is to ensure people know your vulnerabilities. All I can think of now is the less reputable semi-cheat type methods that may be out there. Or the quality of reds even at Yew gate has diminished to the point where they truly suck, by missing something utterly obvious :D

Wenchy
 

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
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When I am talking about "concrete information", I mean solid stats, gathered by the devs on things like kd ratios for templates with taming vs kd ratios for templates with no taming, what the skill breakdowns for the various templates are, and their comparative kd ratios. I'm talking about game hours spent pvp'ing for the various templates in comparison to each other.
:lol: They got devs doing that on your planet then?
It can be done, and it should be done. It could start off with something as basic as adding up all the skills in the database, and seeing which ones are more common among active players. Another simple thing that could easily be done is when a player kills a player, put the skill sets into a database, this should include all the players that contributed to the kill. That basic functionality is already built into UO, and shouldn't be that difficult to code.

The data collecting itself shouldn't require high performance storage, so external hard drives should be all that is required if data storage space is an issue, and as the data is already being collected in the code, I don't think storing it should degrade server performance.

I obviously don't know exactly technically what is going on with the server code in UO, or what kind of hardware they are using, what kind of database, or what resources are available to them. But from what little I do know, it seems to me that the simple suggestions I have made here should be possible, and that is the kind of information game changing decisions should be based on, not the frustrated tirades of the few that post on forums like these, and relative to the overall player base, extremely few offer input here.

I fully appreciate that, however I'm trying to listen to both sides here, and hoping to get some meaningful discussion between the "all kill = no skill" brigade posts. I know about the PvPers side of things when they meet you guys, but the only way you'll really get support is to ensure people know your vulnerabilities. All I can think of now is the less reputable semi-cheat type methods that may be out there. Or the quality of reds even at Yew gate has diminished to the point where they truly suck, by missing something utterly obvious :D

Wenchy
Dealing with any skilled player one on one is always a tough fight, and it should be, and that is why the guard zones around Yew attract pvp, why they are good, and why they should stay - they allow one on one fights even when one side outnumbers the other. I'm talking about situations here specifically where the reds outnumber those at the gate, I find that generally when the blues outnumber the reds, the pvp moves away from the gates pretty quickly, unless the reds are much more skilled than the blues at the gate, which obviously can, and does, happen.

But as for specific tactics, I find that pvp at Yew gate is a bit like a chess game when I am there, and it is one of the reasons why I enjoy it so much. There is a psychological game going on that does more to determine the outcome of the combat, than the combat itself. This is part of the reason why pvp at Yew gate is so different from any other kind of pvp, both sides are continually trying to lay traps for the other, and the tactics and strategies that will be successful will vary wildly depending on the templates, real player skill levels, and numbers of players involved.

That is another reason why pvp at Yew gate is so interesting and addictive, and why it is really tough to answer questions about what specific tactics will be successful against a particular template, there is no one specific answer, all the variables, and combinations of variables, of the battlefield will entail different answers to that question. And if my suggestion were implemented, it wouldn't eliminate the usefulness of bards at Yew gate, it would simply require them to either have some real pvp skills in addition to their bard skills, or require that they be protected.

That was why I would recommend that bards be flagged aggressor to the player who's pets they attack, not criminal, and also why I would recommend that bard skills be allowed to affect players in some way, so that they would be useful in pvp for more than just attacking pets. That would open up another entire array of tactical and strategic choices and allow bards to be fully integrated into the pvp community.

As I posted earlier, I love choices, and I want more choices in pvp, not less, which is one of the reasons why the prejudice against tamers in pvp annoys me so severely. Those kinds of attitudes, if they are acted on, serve only to limit choices, and make the entire game less interesting, and in the end, less fun.
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
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I think that if there was a clear and straighforward way to tackle a gate tamer, it would make changing bards more acceptable.

I'm also keen to ensure that no bad side effects hit tamers or bards beyond PvP in Fel. I'm not in the least bit concerned that I might flag for disco'ing, more that my enjoyment of playing a tamer bard will once again be diminished beyond PvP.

If the fix is just to flag the bard to the tamer only, and no spil-over occurs that's much better than a scenario where a disco target aggros on the bard, anyone can attack said bard and taming bards are eaten by pets because they accidentally disco'd a greater :) I wouldn't ask to be able to bard players, but I'd happily accept such a change :D But there must be a straightforward way to fight that tamer if we maintain a guardzone at Yew gate. I realise that you and others enjoy fighting there, but there's a line between a hard to kill tamer and one who only a bard can defeat. The latter are all I've seen so far, unless you count the ones who get ganked out of guardzone heh.

Wenchy
 
C

CKTC

Guest
I love choices, and I want more choices in pvp, not less, which is one of the reasons why the prejudice against tamers in pvp annoys me so severely. Those kinds of attitudes, if they are acted on, serve only to limit choices, and make the entire game less interesting, and in the end, less fun.
:bs:

You are the biggest hypocrite on these boards if you want MORE choice then why are you trying to LESSEN them by removing bards from the scene? Bards are already defensively weak you think anyones going to play one when they flag? Your only reason for agreeing with this thread is simply because your biased and you want things easier for yourself which makes you all the more laughable when its what you accuse everyone else of.
 

Llewen

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I think that if there was a clear and straighforward way to tackle a gate tamer, it would make changing bards more acceptable.

I'm also keen to ensure that no bad side effects hit tamers or bards beyond PvP in Fel. I'm not in the least bit concerned that I might flag for disco'ing, more that my enjoyment of playing a tamer bard will once again be diminished beyond PvP.

If the fix is just to flag the bard to the tamer only, and no spil-over occurs that's much better than a scenario where a disco target aggros on the bard, anyone can attack said bard and taming bards are eaten by pets because they accidentally disco'd a greater :)
When greater dragons first came out, and tamers started bringing them to Yew, there were a lot of dead reds around Yew gate, but honestly, since then the pvp'rs have adjusted, and generally if a tamer comes to Yew with a dragon on Cats, they don't last very long. As I said there is one tamer I know of that uses a dragon in Yew on Cats, and is actually quite successful. She is smart, experienced, well equipped, and she is backed by the biggest pvp guild on the shard. She is the only one I know of that does well at Yew gate now with a greater dragon. I include myself in that equation. I generally don't even bring my greater dragon to Yew anymore, and I know I have one of the best dragons on the shard, and he is fully trained, and I know how to use him.

I don't think bards should be flagged criminal for barding pets, I think they should be flagged aggressor, and only flagged to the tamer whose pets they use their barding skills on. I used to be wishy washy on that and really didn't have an opinion, but that's the conclusion I've come to. I don't want bards to be completely useless, which is why I also would want to see them be able to affect players in some way, but I do want to be able to defend myself against them, which I absolutely cannot. I've learnt to work my way around them pretty well, but I do think tamers should be able to defend themselves against bards.

You are the biggest hypocrite on these boards if you want MORE choice then why are you trying to LESSEN them by removing bards from the scene?
At this point I could tell you there is a moon orbiting planet earth, and you would find some way to disagree with me, and probably call me a few names along the way as part of the bargain... ;)

Bards are already defensively weak you think anyones going to play one when they flag?
Bards are only defensively weak, because there are few players that create bards specifically with pvp in mind. If bards were given the ability to affect players in some way with their barding skills, and as a result become more useful generally in pvp, you can bet your sweet patootie there would be some very strong bard templates created, in very short order. Even as things stand now, it wouldn't be that difficult to create a character with barding skills that would also be a strong pvp template, in fact there are some of those around already, they are just extremely rare...
 
C

CKTC

Guest
At this point I could tell you there is a moon orbiting planet earth, and you would find some way to disagree with me, and probably call me a few names along the way as part of the bargain... ;)
"When you reply to a quote what you say is spose to actually be something to do with what youve quoted "

Still not quite got it I see.

If you ever came out with anything that wasnt biased hypocritical or contradictoray someone might agree with you but as it stands you havent which is why your only replys to questions are gibberish and is why everyone stopped listening to you when it became evident that you have difficulties understanding whats said to you. You cant even grasp the simple concept that your getting called names because thats what you have done to other people. Ill leave it at that its a waste of time explaining anything more to you.

I mean you even managed to troll this thread which you agree with :lol:
 
C

CKTC

Guest
*expects a reply about cabbages xenomorphs and rainbows*

Btw what shard are you on?
 
L

Lord GOD(GOD)

Guest
GOD doesn't hate you, GOD pitys you as I said when I told you to stop PM'ing me.

(Though you probably 'heard' something else so it's understandable)
 

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
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Btw what shard are you on?
Catskills, I'm quite well known, I'm often at Yew gate. Come look me up, and let me know who you are, I'm sure we'll have loads of fun. You can even make the mistake of turning grey or showing up on a red if you like... ;)
 

Llewen

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My main is Llewen Faerlyght. Of course I realize if you do actually show up, I can't win. If I hand you your butt on a plate, it will be because my template is overpowered, and if I lose, I'm a noob... Oh well, what can you do? ;)

At any rate, it appears that we are back to this again:

And at this point the discussion has degraded into, "I'm not a troll, you're a troll, I'm not biased, you're biased, I'm not lame, you're lame, I'm right you're wrong," and there is no point in continuing the discussion.
So I expect I won't be visiting this thread again, but I'm sure the discussion will continue in other threads, in the not too distant future. So for now, feel free to have the last word.
 
C

CKTC

Guest
Did i say i was going to fight you? no but as always youve heard something that wasnt said and gone all defensive (aww lol)

ive never played a bard before this thread has inspired me to make one as my main shard is full i need to start one somewhere else thats why i was asking

feel free to have the last word? lol why? is that an accomplishment to you, most people stop thinking like that as teenagers but for the sake of being on a level you understand the last words will be your a joke to think your permission is needed for someone to have the last word on anything as i already pointed out to you. you talk and people ignore you why? because your biased hypocritical contradictory and have no grip on the reality of life or uo
 

Orvago

Stratics' Finest
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:rant2:

Will possibly reevaluate this thread for some shearing at a later time.
For now, discussion here is closed on this.
 
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