Specific situation of abuse of discording pets in PVP

[Revenant2]

I know there was already a thread about this, but I figured this was a specific enough example to put out here.

There was a blue tamer who went to Yew gate with a superdragon. A warrior saw this and duel cliented his blue bard and brought it. The dual-cliented bard would discord the pet (and not be flagged in any respect for this) and then he would set the duel cliented bard to auto follow the pet. He would then have his warrior running around with a dragon slayer weapon, and he was able to very quickly kill the superdragon in these conditions.

No single template of course carries full barding abilities plus full warrior abilities. To my knowledge it is cheating to duel client this way, but this kind of cheating does not seem stoppable in the current environment.

It seems clear that discording a blue's pet must make the bard crim + aggro against both pet and owner, and discording a red's pet should be the same minus the crim flag. For it to be possible for a tamer to be in guardzone with a dual-cliented, auto-following, blue discorder attached to his pet makes no sense.

As it is now, outside of the guardzone, blues would have to take a count to remove the bard from the situation (and see, a discorded pet may still have what it takes to kill a bard but NOT the person's warrior). The pet won't attack the discorder automatically, which is also a complication. The dual clienting issue isn't all that significant in this determination but it's an example of the extent to which it can be abused right now.

Discord is to a tamer what an extreme but focused curse would be to a warrior or mage. Imagine if players could discord one another's combat skills, and then "kill" the player halfway in this state, so that his primary combat abilities were 0 and all he had was whatever parts of the template were left without his offense. Then, the player would then have to go get a partial ressurection to fix himself. This is precisely the situation that discord bards present for unmounted PVP tamers right now.

If discord is to be able to work offensively against pets (which is in itself a question which could be considered seperately), it's clear that it must flag the bard appropriately.

 

[GL_Seller]

Just curious as to how you know they were duel clienting? I stopped reading your post there because u have no proof so the rest of your post was pntless. I myself have my laptop as well as my pc that are able to play uo and i often use my tamer to res my pet or help at dh while im using my sampire.

I've never duel cliented but i have 2 comps running. So before you go crying hes cheating find out that hes actually cheating.

Also you wont find sympathy here that your uber im so leet all kill super dragon couldnt kill something.

 

[Revenant2]

Just curious as to how you know they were duel clienting? I stopped reading your post there because u have no proof so the rest of your post was pntless. I myself have my laptop as well as my pc that are able to play uo and i often use my tamer to res my pet or help at dh while im using my sampire.

I've never duel cliented but i have 2 comps running. So before you go crying hes cheating find out that hes actually cheating.

Also you wont find sympathy here that your uber im so leet all kill super dragon couldnt kill something.

Since you did not take the time to read my post in it's entirety, I won't reply to yours in entirety.

</start>
You sound hostile, and biased against anyone who is using a char with a tamer template in PVP.
</end>

 

[WarUltima]

My opinion is discord/peace should flag the bard, but greater dragon in PvP is also completely ********.

It was bad enough with beetle mare now they throw in a tamable stronger than the old ancient wyrm that deals 60-80 in one dragon breathe and 40ish melee attack that also bleeds. The damage figure is based on a greater dragon with 997 hp against my all 70s suit. Oh did I mention other than bleed, dragon breathe, and claw attack the dragon also spams spells nonstop?

But yea, bard should flag and greater dragfon should also be fixed.

 

[Fizzleton]

I can't follow your argument. A blue bard on a second account discording a dragon and auto-follow it in pvp??? What kind of pvp are u talking about? This bard is toast in seconds, and taking a count shouldn't be anything to worry imho... Of course should game mechanics be able to recognize bard abilities in fel as hostile acts and turn the bard grey, but, hey, we are talking about pvp and not mommy's thing ... IF it were two accounts, I would like to see the person behind it reacting fast enough if you are able to play a decent pvp-tamer to safe only one char; most probably, he or she will lose both

 

[zamot]

If the developers listen and do change it so that the discorder flags than I hope they also give us looting rights. I would hope that they do not change this based on this persons example. He is in fel trying to kill reds with an over powered pet in a guard zone.

The discord effect will break and leave the pet if he would recall out, kill the blue discorder, how about just paralyze the blue run your dragon off screen, invis your pet wait for the discord to wear off and then continue on your hunt for the red. I would think that if you kill the Blue discorder that the red would stop using his second account.

I have a discorder and with the skills that I have on him he is good for a support character only. If the change is made to flag him on an attempt at discording I will have to change his template. No big deal but it is also no big deal for the origonal poster to suck it up and say all kill if he is going to be in that postion. (PvP with an over powered pet)

 

[NewThunder]

I know there was already a thread about this, but I figured this was a specific enough example to put out here.

Yes lets spread the conversation to multiple threads, why didnt you simply add you post to the earlier thread. What would these forums look like if we all started our own threads on the same topic?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I have read your post, in its entirety, about 3 times.

I still don't see why you think he was dual-clienting.

Also you don't necessarily need "full" barding abilities to do what you describe on one character.

The bard-warrior template is something players have screwed around with for some years now.

-Galen's player

 

[Llewen]

I know there was already a thread about this, but I figured this was a specific enough example to put out here.

There was a blue tamer who went to Yew gate with a superdragon. A warrior saw this and duel cliented his blue bard and brought it. The dual-cliented bard would discord the pet (and not be flagged in any respect for this) and then he would set the duel cliented bard to auto follow the pet. He would then have his warrior running around with a dragon slayer weapon, and he was able to very quickly kill the superdragon in these conditions.

No single template of course carries full barding abilities plus full warrior abilities. To my knowledge it is cheating to duel client this way, but this kind of cheating does not seem stoppable in the current environment.

It seems clear that discording a blue's pet must make the bard crim + aggro against both pet and owner, and discording a red's pet should be the same minus the crim flag. For it to be possible for a tamer to be in guardzone with a dual-cliented, auto-following, blue discorder attached to his pet makes no sense.

As it is now, outside of the guardzone, blues would have to take a count to remove the bard from the situation (and see, a discorded pet may still have what it takes to kill a bard but NOT the person's warrior). The pet won't attack the discorder automatically, which is also a complication. The dual clienting issue isn't all that significant in this determination but it's an example of the extent to which it can be abused right now.

Discord is to a tamer what an extreme but focused curse would be to a warrior or mage. Imagine if players could discord one another's combat skills, and then "kill" the player halfway in this state, so that his primary combat abilities were 0 and all he had was whatever parts of the template were left without his offense. Then, the player would then have to go get a partial ressurection to fix himself. This is precisely the situation that discord bards present for unmounted PVP tamers right now.

If discord is to be able to work offensively against pets (which is in itself a question which could be considered seperately), it's clear that it must flag the bard appropriately.

/signed

It was bad enough with beetle mare now they throw in a tamable stronger than the old ancient wyrm that deals 60-80 in one dragon breathe and 40ish melee attack that also bleeds. The damage figure is based on a greater dragon with 997 hp against my all 70s suit. Oh did I mention other than bleed, dragon breathe, and claw attack the dragon also spams spells nonstop?

For all that you say they are over powered, I don't see many successful solo tamers in pvp, even with greater dragons. A greater dragon is extremely easy to outrun, even on foot, and the tamer is on foot. Those two facts make fighting a tamer with a greater dragon, an even fight, if you know what you are doing, and are willing to change your tactics. If you aren't willing to use your brain, your most important weapon, and try to fight a tamer with a dragon the same way you fight any other template, then you are likely to get your butt handed to you on a platter, but then it won't be anyone's fault but your own will it?

 

[ShaunOfPac]

I say good riddance, a greater dragon has no place in PvP. Its Player Versus Player, not Player Versus Monster after all.

 

[Gwendar-SP]

Good luck. I lost interest in selling instruments after a bard discorded my blue beetle in luna and got it killed when I foolishly sent the beetle after a gamman.

Discord is far more damaging than a debuf spell. The debuf flags the mage. A bard can discord whereever they please.

 

[Llewen]

I say good riddance, a greater dragon has no place in PvP. Its Player Versus Player, not Player Versus Monster after all.

Typical, anti-tamer prejudice. A tamer with a pet is pvp'ing as just as much as any other template. A pet without a tamer, even a greater dragon, won't do much except die against any experienced pvp'r.

I'll go one step further than what I said a few posts above. The most effective tamers in pvp right now aren't using dragons, they are using cu sidhe and hiryus. Greater dragons are great for killing inexperienced pvp'rs, and in certain situations where the tamer has a lot of support, or at spawns, but for the most part, a greater dragon isn't your best choice for pvp.

And none of that changes the fact that bards should be flagged aggressor for discord especially, and probably for peace as well.

I have read your post, in its entirety, about 3 times.

I still don't see why you think he was dual-clienting.

Also you don't necessarily need "full" barding abilities to do what you describe on one character.

The bard-warrior template is something players have screwed around with for some years now.

-Galen's player

I have no doubt the same person was playing the two characters, I've had that happen to me many times, and it becomes pretty obvious when you get to know the people involved. However, that doesn't make it an exploit or cheating. You can do that easily with two computers and two accounts, you can even do it with fast user switching (although that is more of a challenge due to the fact that "fast" user switching isn't so fast...), both of which are perfectly legal. The problem here isn't running two characters at the same time, the problem is an extremely aggressive action that can't be defended against inside or near a guard zone, and can only be dealt with by taking a murder count away from a guard zone.

 

[Revenant2]

Regarding the dual client situation:

First off, it does not matter if anyone "proves" that someone else is doing this. It's doable and its easy.

To all the peeps who seem convinced I could not have known it was a duel client situation:

I've seen two different people doing it on two different shards. The first one was my guildmate doing it to someone else. I know that person was dual clienting because I was in Vent with this person and heard what they said as they did it. The second time it was a third party doing it to a tamer in my guild and it was pretty clear what was going on from the situation. There was one group of people there, the tamer showed up with his pet, and shortly thereafter this mystery bard showed up and was being operated only to auto-follow the pet. It doesn't take hacking someone's box or listening to their vent to put 2 and 2 together.

There's no need to prove anything to anyone in either case, it's just how this thing works.

I can't follow your argument. A blue bard on a second account discording a dragon and auto-follow it in pvp??? What kind of pvp are u talking about? This bard is toast in seconds, and taking a count shouldn't be anything to worry imho... Of course should game mechanics be able to recognize bard abilities in fel as hostile acts and turn the bard grey, but, hey, we are talking about pvp and not mommy's thing ... IF it were two accounts, I would like to see the person behind it reacting fast enough if you are able to play a decent pvp-tamer to safe only one char; most probably, he or she will lose both

One can't take counts on one's blue like that. When the person doing this to you realizes that you're willing to take counts on his bard, he'll go get rezzed and come back and do it repeatedly. The person will have you red in one night and will go home laughing at you and the 40+ hours you have to macro off to make your tamer work properly again.

To the best of my knowledge, the discord effect against a pet will last 15 seconds after the discorder dies, or something like that. In the recent incident I saw, the tamer and the discorded dragon MAY have been able to get the bard dead (the bard was mounted so that's questionable) but, in a nonguardzone situation, I'm sure that the person attacking the dragon would have had the dragon dead at the end of the confrontation, regardless of whether or not the bard bit it.

Yes lets spread the conversation to multiple threads, why didnt you simply add you post to the earlier thread. What would these forums look like if we all started our own threads on the same topic?

I think it was on the old boards, but now that you mention it, people don't appreciate ancient threads getting bumped up to the top of the list again. It's not exactly the same topic anyway, this brings up a specific abuse (abuse being the effective word).

Also you don't necessarily need "full" barding abilities to do what you describe on one character.

The bard-warrior template is something players have screwed around with for some years now.

Sure but, point being, these people did not have to compromise their template and think about which 200-240 of their skill points to move off. There was no need when their dedicated bard char can auto-follow the pets and stay blue while doing it.

 

[Llewen]

What I would like to see is bards be flagged aggressor for their aggressive actions (I don't care if they are flagged "criminal" or not, in fact I think they shouldn't be - this would allow them to use their skills in guard zones without being guard whacked), but for them also to gain some real usefulness against players as a trade off, ie. be able to peace and discord players in some way. This would have to be tested thoroughly, and their power versus players should likely be reduced relative to their power versus mobs, but I would still like to see it happen. As far as I am concerned, the more pvp options and playstyles there are, the more interesting things are.

Which leads to one of the major reasons that the typical anti-tamer prejudice you run into here on Stratics, and in the game, annoys me so severely. It isn't just that it is unreasoning, or elitist, it is certainly those things, but as far as I am concerned, it is an attempt to limit choices in pvp, and to me, UO has always been about choices. If you want strictly limited pvp, go play WoW, or any one of the many other games out there where there is a convenient switch for pvp, or a nice tidy confined battlefield, or it is completely pointless to try and pvp against anyone who isn't within a one or two levels of your own...

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Typical, anti-tamer prejudice. A tamer with a pet is pvp'ing as just as much as any other template. A pet without a tamer, even a greater dragon, won't do much except die against any experienced pvp'r.

I'll go one step further than what I said a few posts above. The most effective tamers in pvp right now aren't using dragons, they are using cu sidhe and hiryus. Greater dragons are great for killing inexperienced pvp'rs, and in certain situations where the tamer has a lot of support, or at spawns, but for the most part, a greater dragon isn't your best choice for pvp.

And none of that changes the fact that bards should be flagged aggressor for discord especially, and probably for peace as well.



I have no doubt the same person was playing the two characters, I've had that happen to me many times, and it becomes pretty obvious when you get to know the people involved. However, that doesn't make it an exploit or cheating. You can do that easily with two computers and two accounts, you can even do it with fast user switching (although that is more of a challenge due to the fact that "fast" user switching isn't so fast...), both of which are perfectly legal. The problem here isn't running two characters at the same time, the problem is an extremely aggressive action that can't be defended against inside or near a guard zone, and can only be dealt with by taking a murder count away from a guard zone.

Its ignorant people like you who ruined this game. I played from the start, September 1997. UO:R was the beginning of the end, when we would see the creation of Trammel. Its the reason Richard Garriott, the man who created OSI and the Ultima line of games left his own company. He hated what UO was turning into. To say a tamer using the all kill command is just as much a PvP'er as someone tactically using spell combinations is one of the most ignorant statements I believe I've ever heard regarding this game. How long have you been playing, exactly? And exactly how much PvP experience do you have?

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Interested to see this answer.

 

[Aibal]

You don't "know" if it was a dual client situation, therefore you have no FACTS. End of case right there. Although I don't like the barding deal in Fel on pets, quite frankly I find sitting in a guard zone with a gdrag or bug/mare combo to be the lamest, weakest, most pathetic thing in this game, so I find it more than a little hilarious that this happened to a zone humping ***** anyway. To whine here attempting to call that "pvp" is laughable at best. Oh, and this is coming from someone who enjoys my tamer and in no manner shape or form do I ever sit and bash them except in this type of scenario.

 

[Revenant2]

Its ignorant people like you who ruined this game. I played from the start, September 1997. UO:R was the beginning of the end, when we would see the creation of Trammel. Its the reason Richard Garriott, the man who created OSI and the Ultima line of games left his own company. He hated what UO was turning into. To say a tamer using the all kill command is just as much a PvP'er as someone tactically using spell combinations is one of the most ignorant statements I believe I've ever heard regarding this game. How long have you been playing, exactly? And exactly how much PvP experience do you have?

I never asked Richard Garriot what he thought of UO, but I betcha he likes the current state of it better than when he left. It's in much better shape now.

Your hostility at the tamers is misdirected; they didn't invent the tamer class that they use, they are only enjoying it. Your resentment is more correctly directed at, say, Draconi, who has said that Greater Dragons are working exactly as they are intended (town hall meeting in Maryland a few months back).

 

[o2bavr6]

Regarding the dual client situation:

First off, it does not matter if anyone "proves" that someone else is doing this. It's doable and its easy.

To all the peeps who seem convinced I could not have known it was a duel client situation:

I've seen two different people doing it on two different shards. The first one was my guildmate doing it to someone else. I know that person was dual clienting because I was in Vent with this person and heard what they said as they did it. The second time it was a third party doing it to a tamer in my guild and it was pretty clear what was going on from the situation. There was one group of people there, the tamer showed up with his pet, and shortly thereafter this mystery bard showed up and was being operated only to auto-follow the pet. It doesn't take hacking someone's box or listening to their vent to put 2 and 2 together.

I cant speak for what the person was actualy doing, but I also have multiple computers. Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between someone double clienting and someone using two computers?
Wouldn't they both act and look the same? Wouldn't I also put the other loggined in character on follow mode? Yes to both!!.

As for the flagging issue with bards, I sort of agree, but honestly there are way more improtant flagging problems in the game that affect more people than just tamers. I would prefer to see them fix those first.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

I never asked Richard Garriot what he thought of UO, but I betcha he likes the current state of it better than when he left. It's in much better shape now.

Your hostility at the tamers is misdirected; they didn't invent the tamer class that they use, they are only enjoying it. Your resentment is more correctly directed at, say, Draconi, who has said that Greater Dragons are working exactly as they are intended (town hall meeting in Maryland a few months back).

Richard Garriott HATES UO, he left Origin, the company HE created, because of the what they were doing to it. As far as my resentment, I have a tamer. My tamer was GM probably before you had an account. I simply said that her statement that a tamer is just as much PvP'ing as say a mage, is in fact, grossly wrong and ignorant.

 

[Revenant2]

You don't "know" if it was a dual client situation, therefore you have no FACTS. End of case right there. Although I don't like the barding deal in Fel on pets, quite frankly I find sitting in a guard zone with a gdrag or bug/mare combo to be the lamest, weakest, most pathetic thing in this game, so I find it more than a little hilarious that this happened to a zone humping ***** anyway. To whine here attempting to call that "pvp" is laughable at best. Oh, and this is coming from someone who enjoys my tamer and in no manner shape or form do I ever sit and bash them except in this type of scenario.

I guess he missed where I said I was in vent and listened to the setup of the duel client as my guildmate did it.

He's also assuming that the tamers intended to stand around at the edge of some guard zone and play games. The tamers in this case actually could do nothing at all with an auto-following blue bard, either in or out of the guard zone.

 

[Aibal]

I guess he missed where I said I was in vent and listened to the setup of the duel client as my guildmate did it.

He's also assuming that the tamers intended to stand around at the edge of some guard zone and play games. The tamers in this case actually could do nothing at all with an auto-following blue bard, either in or out of the guard zone.

Uh, because YOUR guildmate did it doesn't mean someone else was doing it tiger. I too run two desktops and a laptop so it is by no means impossible for someone to do it quite easily without dual clienting.

Secondly, I'd be willing to bet serious gold that those tamers weren't planning on humping out any further than the edge of the zone. I play on three shards and I see those same pathetic "pvp'ers" on each shard. Lame.

 

[calibek]

Richard Garriott HATES UO, he left Origin, the company HE created, because of the what they were doing to it. As far as my resentment, I have a tamer. My tamer was GM probably before you had an account. I simply said that her statement that a tamer is just as much PvP'ing as say a mage, is in fact, grossly wrong and ignorant.

Your opinions, nothing more than that.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Actually he openly stated he hated the idea of Trammel, stating that one of the key elements of the game was the sense of danger a player experienced whenever they ventured outside of the reaches of the town guards.

Please explain how a tamer sicking a pet on someone is PvP'ing justy as much as someone taking on a human enemy solo, without the aid of an immensely powerful pet.

 

[Llewen]

Its ignorant people like you who ruined this game. I played from the start, September 1997. UO:R was the beginning of the end, when we would see the creation of Trammel. Its the reason Richard Garriott, the man who created OSI and the Ultima line of games left his own company. He hated what UO was turning into. To say a tamer using the all kill command is just as much a PvP'er as someone tactically using spell combinations is one of the most ignorant statements I believe I've ever heard regarding this game. How long have you been playing, exactly? And exactly how much PvP experience do you have?

Funny you should ask this question. I've played UO off and on since December 1997, for a total of six years, and I've pvp'd solidly for over two years - not as much as many, but more than most and certainly enough to have a very good idea what I am talking about. I'll go further, I've played rpg's in one form or another since the late 1970's, which would mean I've been gaming longer than many who play UO have been alive, and while you might think there is no relation between UO pvp and pnp rpg pvp (how's that for acronyms?), in a pnp rpg pvp is as wide open as it can possibly be...

I've played SWG, Asheron's Call and WoW. I've been actively involved in the modding community for Half-Life and other games for well over four years now. I basically run a small gaming clan that plays primarily Half-Life mods, including hosting the games and operating the servers (and in case you are interested, 6 out of 7 of the mods that I host have "friendly fire" activated, so I tend to be pretty hard core). You may wonder why I'm telling you all this?

The point I am making, is that I know something about games, in fact I know quite a lot about games, all kinds of games. I know a lot about pvp in UO, and I have an awful lot of experience and knowledge when it comes to gaming and pvp that goes well beyond UO. I am capable of thinking "outside the box" when it comes to games in general, and pvp in UO specifically, and I know quite a lot about what works, what doesn't work, and what is possible in all kinds of games, and that includes MMORPG's like UO.

I also know prejudice when I see it, and there is a clear, unreasoning prejudice against tamers by many of those who consider themselves "real" pvp'rs in UO. What do I mean by "unreasoning", I mean that it is based on incorrect assumptions, misinformation, and outright lies.

Yep, sometimes when I belch in public, I can be labelled "ignorant", but not when I comes to pvp and gaming in general, and pvp in UO specifically...

Please explain how a tamer sicking a pet on someone is PvP'ing justy as much as someone taking on a human enemy solo, without the aid of an immensely powerful pet.

Ok, I will. I've already said that a pet does nothing but die without a tamer controlling it. A warrior template with a weapon, say a mace, seeing as those are so popular, isn't actually physically swinging that mace, the character, the toon on the screen, the computer is doing the actual swinging. The input from the player will direct that toon when to use it, and how to use it. That is exactly what tamer does with her pet. The same applies to a mage's spells.

For each type of weapon, or template, there are strengths and vulnerabilities, there are tactics and strategies that are more or less successful depending on the situation and the opposition being faced. This is just as true for a tamer as it is for a warrior or a mage. All of the templates in UO are complex, and require a lot of effort, planning, and experience to be successful - on the part of the player. This is just as true for a tamer as it is for any other template.

The tamer haters think their arguments are obvious, isn't it obvious that the it is the pet that is doing the fighting? And on the surface they might be, but when you actually know what you are talking about, and take a close look at them, those arguments simply don't hold any water. A tamer pvp'ing with a pet is "pvp'ing" just as much as any mage with his spells, or warrior with his weapon. If you will actually open up your eyes, it will be obvious that this is true - but I honestly don't expect you to do that, prejudice very rarely opens it's eyes to anything...

 

[Revenant2]

Richard Garriott HATES UO, he left Origin, the company HE created, because of the what they were doing to it.

K if you say so, but I've heard an account saying that he appreciates UO and goes to some of its fan type functions on occasion.

As far as my resentment, I have a tamer. My tamer was GM probably before you had an account.

On the contrary. It's more likely that my first tamer pre-dates your account. Animal taming was one of the first skills my first char ever started to work back in 1998. The skill was valueless back then, as there were no pets could keep you safe from anything out there in the real world of PKs and dungeon monsters. So, I gave up on it. The most powerful pets possible back then were grizzly bears or perhaps polar bears. Back then only a goofball would have bothered GMing animal taming, there was no real use for it.

I simply said that her statement that a tamer is just as much PvP'ing as say a mage, is in fact, grossly wrong and ignorant.

The game designers determine which template types are suitable for PVP and which are is not, and they make a point to have all of those template types be viable and balanced against one another in a revolving sort of way. Tamer *IS* a template that is intended to be usable in PVP in UO, that's just how it is.

Templates which build around Fishing are, however, not PVP templates. Fishing with funny nets causes monsters to pop up from the sea, not PKs.

mm.

 

[calibek]

Actually he openly stated he hated the idea of Trammel, stating that one of the key elements of the game was the sense of danger a player experienced whenever they ventured outside of the reaches of the town guards.

Please explain how a tamer sicking a pet on someone is PvP'ing justy as much as someone taking on a human enemy solo, without the aid of an immensely powerful pet.

Oh I'm not arguing about RG hating tram. I believe I remember seeing that one being said before. The opinion of Tamer's PvP'ing is what is opinion. A pet is a tamer's weapon. They have reduced stats from the second they are tamed so they are not as strong as their wild counterparts. Not to mention most pets can be taken down quite easily anymore. It's the same thing as someone with one of the best arty weapons in the game (They do heavy damage but that is fair because they have the weapon, Not sure of the strongest Weapon arty in the game). Also if you lure the pet away and come back and kill the tamer asap. Once the tamer is dead target the pet. Not too hard really (Except for rune beetles but a cure potion or paladin spell can fix that)

*side note and O/T* is that a picture of you in your avatar? I was looking into getting a tattoo on my back. The pic isn't clear what is it of?

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Funny you should ask this question. I've played UO off and on since December 1997, for a total of six years, and I've pvp'd solidly for over two years - not as much as many, but more than most and certainly enough to have a very good idea what I am talking about. I'll go further, I've played rpg's in one form or another since the late 1970's, which would mean I've been gaming longer than many who play UO have been alive, and while you might think there is no relation between UO pvp and pnp rpg pvp (how's that for acronyms?), in a pnp rpg pvp is as wide open as it can possibly be...

I've played SWG, Asheron's Call and WoW. I've been actively involved in the modding community for Half-Life and other games for well over four years now. I basically run a small gaming clan that plays primarily Half-Life mods, including hosting the games and operating the servers (and in case you are interested, 6 out of 7 of the mods that I host have "friendly fire" activated, so I tend to be pretty hard core). You may wonder why I'm telling you all this?

The point I am making, is that I know something about games, in fact I know quite a lot about games, all kinds of games. I know a lot about pvp in UO, and I have an awful lot of experience and knowledge when it comes to gaming and pvp that goes well beyond UO. I am capable of thinking "outside the box" when it comes to games in general, and pvp in UO specifically, and I know quite a lot about what works, what doesn't work, and what is possible in all kinds of games, and that includes MMORPG's like UO.

I also know prejudice when I see it, and there is a clear, unreasoning prejudice against tamers by many of those who consider themselves "real" pvp'rs in UO. What do I mean by "unreasoning", I mean that it is based on incorrect assumptions, misinformation, and outright lies.

Yep, sometimes when I belch in public, I can be labelled "ignorant", but not when I comes to pvp and gaming in general, and pvp in UO specifically...

Exactly what relevance does your gaming experience have in this matter? You play Half Life mods with Friendly Fire turned on eh? Thats what you consider hardcore? I play real war games, with real bullets.

You PvP'ed in UO for 2 years, presumably all after AoS when it became item based? And how did you fare? I was stat loss red, with over 120 kill points in the Shadowlord faction, and would freely walk around the Yew Moongate without worry of death. I can promise you, your PvP experience is nowhere near mine.

Now, if you could please explain how a tamer using pets takes as much skill and mental capacity as a mage in PvP?

 

[Fizzleton]

well, I see your point, and I would never consider a tamer actively using pets to "pvp" a pvper. however, there are other templates not requiring much skill; or do you suppose an archer using moving shot beeing a "skillful" pvp'er? I like the idea that a tamer in fel is not left helpless to any jerk with a pet guarding him or her, thats fine how it is. but true pvpers know that there is pvp and pvp, and a skillfull mage duel stands above anything, including "all kill" tamers or moving shot archers.

 

[NewThunder]

I guess he missed where I said I was in vent and listened to the setup of the duel client as my guildmate did it.

He's also assuming that the tamers intended to stand around at the edge of some guard zone and play games. The tamers in this case actually could do nothing at all with an auto-following blue bard, either in or out of the guard zone.

So you are in a guild with players that you believe to use exploits? What did you recieve for a response when you submitted a bug report?

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Oh I'm not arguing about RG hating tram. I believe I remember seeing that one being said before. The opinion of Tamer's PvP'ing is what is opinion. A pet is a tamer's weapon. They have reduced stats from the second they are tamed so they are not as strong as their wild counterparts. Not to mention most pets can be taken down quite easily anymore. It's the same thing as someone with one of the best arty weapons in the game (They do heavy damage but that is fair because they have the weapon, Not sure of the strongest Weapon arty in the game). Also if you lure the pet away and come back and kill the tamer asap. Once the tamer is dead target the pet. Not too hard really (Except for rune beetles but a cure potion or paladin spell can fix that)

*side note and O/T* is that a picture of you in your avatar? I was looking into getting a tattoo on my back. The pic isn't clear what is it of?

Originally it was going to be a Trident. I served as a Navy SEAL for over 3 years, and wanted to get the insignia. I changed my mind and decided I didn't want military affiliated images permanently inked into my body, so it is a hollow sun with tendrils of light emanating from it.

BTW, I hate the fact that PvP is item based now. Prior to AoS, PvP was balanced and you had to outsmart an opponent in order to succeed, not have uber items.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Nobody has yet to answer my question. How does a tamer using an all kill command to send a pet after a target require as much skill as a mage managing spell combinations and trying to locate key weaknesses in a target?

 

[butthead owns]

I know there was already a thread about this, but I figured this was a specific enough example to put out here.

There was a blue tamer who went to Yew gate with a superdragon. A warrior saw this and duel cliented his blue bard and brought it. The dual-cliented bard would discord the pet (and not be flagged in any respect for this) and then he would set the duel cliented bard to auto follow the pet. He would then have his warrior running around with a dragon slayer weapon, and he was able to very quickly kill the superdragon in these conditions.

No single template of course carries full barding abilities plus full warrior abilities. To my knowledge it is cheating to duel client this way, but this kind of cheating does not seem stoppable in the current environment.

It seems clear that discording a blue's pet must make the bard crim + aggro against both pet and owner, and discording a red's pet should be the same minus the crim flag. For it to be possible for a tamer to be in guardzone with a dual-cliented, auto-following, blue discorder attached to his pet makes no sense.

As it is now, outside of the guardzone, blues would have to take a count to remove the bard from the situation (and see, a discorded pet may still have what it takes to kill a bard but NOT the person's warrior). The pet won't attack the discorder automatically, which is also a complication. The dual clienting issue isn't all that significant in this determination but it's an example of the extent to which it can be abused right now.

Discord is to a tamer what an extreme but focused curse would be to a warrior or mage. Imagine if players could discord one another's combat skills, and then "kill" the player halfway in this state, so that his primary combat abilities were 0 and all he had was whatever parts of the template were left without his offense. Then, the player would then have to go get a partial ressurection to fix himself. This is precisely the situation that discord bards present for unmounted PVP tamers right now.

If discord is to be able to work offensively against pets (which is in itself a question which could be considered seperately), it's clear that it must flag the bard appropriately.

well its the same thing as blue paralizinfe in u then the efeild u in a trap for the weak reds to kill this has been a issue for year but uo never does a thing to fix it so good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Revenant2]

Uh, because YOUR guildmate did it doesn't mean someone else was doing it tiger.

dumb.

I too run two desktops and a laptop so it is by no means impossible for someone to do it quite easily without dual clienting.

Dumber.

Running a client on one PC, doing something as automated as an auto-follow with a discord running on someone's pet, while you're at the other one PVPing and preparing to kill someones pet, is just as cheated as dual clienting. Its effectively UNATTENDED and its against game rules.

Sure you might say, Oh but I can get on that other PC and type on it pretty quick! Fact remains that you were not actively watching or using your bard as it auto-followed the tamer. You were letting it go along by itself, as you actively worked the account that had your warrior on it. If you were caught doing this and didn't BS your way out of it I believe you would rightly get cited for TOS violation for the bard account being operated unattended.

Secondly, I'd be willing to bet serious gold that those tamers weren't planning on humping out any further than the edge of the zone. I play on three shards and I see those same pathetic "pvp'ers" on each shard. Lame.

Dumbest.

You're assuming or, even, blaming, the individuals, saying that they are lame, for trying to use a template type provided to them within the game design. I don't talk down to people real often but, sheesh.

 

[Aibal]

Nobody has yet to answer my question. How does a tamer using an all kill command to send a pet after a target require as much skill as a mage managing spell combinations and trying to locate key weaknesses in a target?

You'll be waiting a while for that one lol.

All kill=No skill

 

[Llewen]

Nobody has yet to answer my question. How does a tamer using an all kill command to send a pet after a target require as much skill as a mage managing spell combinations and trying to locate key weaknesses in a target?

Please explain how a tamer sicking a pet on someone is PvP'ing justy as much as someone taking on a human enemy solo, without the aid of an immensely powerful pet.

Ok, I will. I've already said that a pet does nothing but die without a tamer controlling it. A warrior template with a weapon, say a mace, seeing as those are so popular, isn't actually physically swinging that mace, the character, the toon on the screen, the computer is doing the actual swinging. The input from the player will direct that toon when to use it, and how to use it. That is exactly what tamer does with her pet. The same applies to a mage's spells.

For each type of weapon, or template, there are strengths and vulnerabilities, there are tactics and strategies that are more or less successful depending on the situation and the opposition being faced. This is just as true for a tamer as it is for a warrior or a mage. All of the templates in UO are complex, and require a lot of effort, planning, and experience to be successful - on the part of the player. This is just as true for a tamer as it is for any other template.

The tamer haters think their arguments are obvious, isn't it obvious that the it is the pet that is doing the fighting? And on the surface they might be, but when you actually know what you are talking about, and take a close look at them, those arguments simply don't hold any water. A tamer pvp'ing with a pet is "pvp'ing" just as much as any mage with his spells, or warrior with his weapon. If you will actually open up your eyes, it will be obvious that this is true - but I honestly don't expect you to do that, prejudice very rarely opens it's eyes to anything...

Exactly what relevance does your gaming experience have in this matter? You play Half Life mods with Friendly Fire turned on eh? Thats what you consider hardcore? I play real war games, with real bullets.

The fact that you happen to be a soldier doesn't make my experience in gaming any less extensive, relevant, or hard core for that matter. No, my pvp'ing with a pet doesn't compare in any way to any real combat situation you might be involved it, or even to a live fire exercise, but it certainly does compare on a completely level playing field to any mage or warrior pvp'ing in UO...

 

[Aibal]

dumb.



Dumber.

Running a client on one PC, doing something as automated as an auto-follow with a discord running on someone's pet, while you're at the other one PVPing and preparing to kill someones pet, is just as cheated as dual clienting. Its effectively UNATTENDED and its against game rules.

Sure you might say, Oh but I can get on that other PC and type on it pretty quick! Fact remains that you were not actively watching or using your bard as it auto-followed the tamer. You were letting it go along by itself, as you actively worked the account that had your warrior on it. If you were caught doing this and didn't BS your way out of it I believe you would rightly get cited for TOS violation for the bard account being operated unattended.



Dumbest.

You're assuming or, even, blaming, the individuals, saying that they are lame, for trying to use a template type provided to them within the game design. I don't talk down to people real often but, sheesh.

Speaking of dumb, the whole context of this wins the award as idiotic response of the year. I'll type this slowly, since you seem to be a slow reader/learner.

1. Having a laptop next to a desktop and running both is NOT unattended. Both screens, side by side, means the person is attended and can respond to a page. You may not like this, but it is a fact. The rest of your bull**** is simply YOUR "opinion" of the TOS interpretation of this. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you sport. It's clearly beyond your comprehension.

2. I find it hilarious how you could not support your initial position (dual clienting) because you had no facts, so now you switch and try to attack folks saying they could very well be using two PC's. Lame.

3. I have made my point clear there rev. I have no issues with tamers. I don't even have an issue with them in spawns, though I still think it is somewhat unbalanced. My issue is the weak little "pvp'ers" who sit at the gates, safely in the guard zone, and yell "all kill". No skill involved and little to no fear of retribution. Then, when someone takes action to alleviate this, they come here and whine, whine, whine.rolleyes:

So there you go. You might want to look at yourself when you consider what is "dumb", "dumber" and "dumbest" here.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Llewen...

So wait, you have yet to explain how a tamer sicking a pet on someone requires as much SKILL as a mage character. You say that "a pet does nothing but die without a tamer controlling it", all you tell a pet to do is 'kill', after that its on autopilot. You have no input on what spells it uses, you dont have to try to figure out weaknesses in a target, you just have to keep the pet and yourself healed and maybe occasionally throw out an offensive spell to help the pet.

I also like how you're attempting to label me as a person who hates tamers, when I openly post about mine on here. Tamers serve a great purpose, that purpose is PvM. When they try to cross over to PvP and claim they are just as skillfull as a straight mage is when I get agitated. Out of the 10 chars I have, 1 is a tamer, 2 are mules, and the rest are solely PvP chars. PvP was the only reason I played the game, and the tamer was there for financial support of reagents and other needs of my PvP chars, as were the mules.

 

[Llewen]

Speaking of dumb, the whole context of this wins the award as idiotic response of the year. I'll type this slowly, since you seem to be a slow reader/learner.

1. Having a laptop next to a desktop and running both is NOT unattended. Both screens, side by side, means the person is attended and can respond to a page. You may not like this, but it is a fact. The rest of your bull**** is simply YOUR "opinion" of the TOS interpretation of this. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you sport. It's clearly beyond your comprehension.

2. I find it hilarious how you could not support your initial position (dual clienting) because you had no facts, so now you switch and try to attack folks saying they could very well be using two PC's. Lame.

You might want to watch your tone here. I agree, the complaint about dual clienting isn't legitimate, but the issue with bards being able to use aggressive actions with no consequences is a real one.

3. I have made my point clear there rev. I have no issues with tamers. I don't even have an issue with them in spawns, though I still think it is somewhat unbalanced. My issue is the weak little "pvp'ers" who sit at the gates, safely in the guard zone, and yell "all kill". No skill involved and little to no fear of retribution. Then, when someone takes action to alleviate this, they come here and whine, whine, whine.rolleyes:

Again watch your tone. People who don't have a strong argument tend to try to compensate for it with insults, which is exactly what you are doing. The "weak little 'pvp'ers'" who sit in the guard zone are no more "weak" than the "weak little murderers" who run into their houses the second they are attacked so they can pot up, or run in and out until they get lucky with a kill shot or a spell critical, or until ten of their friends show up. The sword cuts both ways in Yew, and neither side has the right to call the other to account for anything.

The guard zones and houses are just part of the terrain in Yew, and you have two choices, you can either learn to work in and around them and use them to your advantage, or you can do something else and not pvp in Yew. Either way, your insults don't do anything but make you look like a jerk...

 

[Revenant2]

Nobody has yet to answer my question. How does a tamer using an all kill command to send a pet after a target require as much skill as a mage managing spell combinations and trying to locate key weaknesses in a target?

You'll be waiting a while for that one lol.

All kill=No skill

The idea that all templates should require equal complexity to operate is not the way UO PVP has been set up by the game designers right now. Like it or not, that's how it is.

They make challenges to using each template type that are supposed to make them balanced against one another, either in a round-robin type of balance or situationally (tamers seem more situational than the other templates, to me). It's part of the challenge for both sides, for operators of different template types to use those templates to their fullest.

If you don't agree with how they have set this up, don't blame the players and call them lame for using what has been given them; it's not their doing.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

The idea that all templates should require equal complexity to operate is not the way UO PVP has been set up by the game designers right now. Like it or not, that's how it is.

They make challenges to using each template type that are supposed to make them balanced against one another, either in a round-robin type of balance or situationally (tamers seem more situational than the other templates, to me). It's part of the challenge for both sides, for operators of different template types to use those templates to their fullest.

If you don't agree with how they have set this up, don't blame the players and call them lame for using what has been given them; it's not their doing.

So you openly admit that a tamer using a pet takes far less skill than a mage?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

he was able to very quickly kill the superdragon in these conditions.

How did the player (dual clienting or not) get your pet out of the guard zone?

No single template of course carries full barding abilities plus full warrior abilities.

It's very easy to make a discord dexxer. The dual clienting (or not) isn't even an issue it could just as easily have been two players.

To my knowledge it is cheating to duel client this way, but this kind of cheating does not seem stoppable in the current environment.

Do you consider your pets 80 damage firebreath cheating? Anything else in PvP that could do damage that high got nerfed.

It seems clear that discording a blue's pet must make the bard crim + aggro against both pet and owner, and discording a red's pet should be the same minus the crim flag. For it to be possible for a tamer to be in guardzone with a dual-cliented, auto-following, blue discorder attached to his pet makes no sense.

No it doesn't, not unless the tamer is discordable as well. What makes no sense is saying your pet died because of 'auto following' 'in guard zone', the only reasons your pet died is because YOU left the guard zone/flagged on the dexxer.

As it is now, outside of the guardzone, blues would have to take a count to remove the bard from the situation (and see, a discorded pet may still have what it takes to kill a bard but NOT the person's warrior).

Yes it does.

Discord is to a tamer what an extreme but focused curse would be to a warrior or mage. Imagine if players could discord one another's combat skills, and then "kill" the player halfway in this state,

Ah but from a greater dragons point of view discord is unnecessary when they can already have more skills than players (both individually and total), ignore standard pvp damage caps, casting rules etc etc.

so that his primary combat abilities were 0

Discord doesn't drop anything to 0, unlike rune beetles when their armor corruption did. You can get a super dragon with 130.5 wrestling, even discorded it's got over 90 wrestle. The only way a dexxer killed your dragon is if you didn't heal it.

This is precisely the situation that discord bards present for unmounted PVP tamers right now.

No it isn't.

What about the situation that dismounted players are presented with versus your super dragon? Afterall you were there to bola/all kill people with a pet than can do 80's firebreath.

If discord is to be able to work offensively against pets (which is in itself a question which could be considered seperately), it's clear that it must flag the bard appropriately.

I disagree, full bard implementation in to PvP or not at all, anything else is just pandering to whinin tamers (not that thats anything new).

 

[Aibal]

You might want to watch your tone here. I agree, the complaint about dual clienting isn't legitimate, but the issue with bards being able to use aggressive actions with no consequences is a real one.

Again watch your tone. People who don't have a strong argument tend to try to compensate for it with insults, which is exactly what you are doing. The "weak little 'pvp'ers'" who sit in the guard zone are no more "weak" than the "weak little murderers" who run into their houses the second they are attacked so they can pot up, or run in and out until they get lucky with a kill shot or a spell critical, or until ten of their friends show up. The sword cuts both ways in Yew, and neither side has the right to call the other to account for anything.

The guard zones and houses are just part of the terrain in Yew, and you have two choices, you can either learn to work in and around them and use them to your advantage, or you can do something else and not pvp in Yew. Either way, your insults don't do anything but make you look like a jerk...

Llewen, don't preach to me about "tones" please, and how I don't have a strong argument. My argument has been addressing revs points the whole time. If you read the thread, you'll find that I stated that bard's discoing should be flagged. After that, I have simply refuted "speculation" on his part. Is that clear enough?

Your point on the house hiders, pot shotters (and should I add stealth gank squads?) are all valid. However, THEY were not under discussion. Furthermore, at least all those other situation involve people humping out of the guard zone and flagging on someone where they face retribution. Way too many tamers just sit safely in the zone with their pets to attack and guard them. Sorry if you don't find it "weak", "lame", or any other adjective, but I certainly do.

Bottom line, rev doesn't like the bards being able to do this (agree). However, by his OWN reasoning that he has stated in other replies, it is within the template of the character blah, blah, blah. Oh, except when it's used against him. Bottom line, you want to solve the problem, kill the bard. But don't come here and whine incessantly about it.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Lord GOD just laid some logical smackdown

 

[Fizzleton]

if u read my above post, nobody who really has done pvp would consider "tamer pvp" as demanding as mage pvp. but, as I stated before; there are other "easily playable" pvp templates, moving shot archers included. but uo asks not for the quality of the kill; you succeed in killing or not, and it depends on your own personality if this is enough for you or if you wish to be successfull in a more skillful way. there are guilds who have high standards; join them.

 

[Llewen]

Llewen...

So wait, you have yet to explain how a tamer sicking a pet on someone requires as much SKILL as a mage character. You say that "a pet does nothing but die without a tamer controlling it", all you tell a pet to do is 'kill', after that its on autopilot. You have no input on what spells it uses, you dont have to try to figure out weaknesses in a target, you just have to keep the pet and yourself healed and maybe occasionally throw out an offensive spell to help the pet.

No I don't have any input into what spells it uses, but I certainly control when it attacks, how it attacks, and how long it attacks for, and that is just as much "real" pvp as anything a mage or warrior does. I've already said this, but I'll say it again, as you don't seem to be getting the point.

You aren't casting the spells, or swinging that mace, your character is, you just instruct your character when and where to cast those spells, or swing that mace, which is exactly what a pvp tamer does with her pet. Yes they are played differently, and require different skills, but I guarantee you that I have invested just as much effort and just as many resources, and just as much skill as most elite pvp mages or warrior has, and probably more than most, into being a pvp tamer.

Have I invested as much as you specifically? Am I as skilled or as experienced as you are specifically? I have no idea, and that isn't the point here, the point here is that I have every bit as much right to be in pvp as you do, and have the right to all the same considerations that you do as well. You don't have to put up with a curse that drastically weakens the ability of your character to do damage as a mage or a warrior, without being able to respond to it in a guard zone, or take a murder count outside a guard zone, and tamers shouldn't have to either.

I also like how you're attempting to label me as a person who hates tamers, when I openly post about mine on here. Tamers serve a great purpose, that purpose is PvM. When they try to cross over to PvP and claim they are just as skillfull as a straight mage is when I get agitated. Out of the 10 chars I have, 1 is a tamer, 2 are mules, and the rest are solely PvP chars. PvP was the only reason I played the game, and the tamer was there for financial support of reagents and other needs of my PvP chars, as were the mules.

And I love how tamer haters always come back with, "I'm not a tamer hater, I have a tamer too." No you aren't a tamer hater, you just don't want them playing in the same playground as you. No you aren't a tamer hater, you just don't want to have any contact with them in what you claim is the "only reason" you play the game. Yes you have a tamer, but no you don't have much experience as a tamer in pvp, so it's pretty safe to say that I know quite a bit more about the challenges facing tamers in pvp, and the skills involved, than you do...

 

[Aibal]

No I don't have any input into what spells it uses, but I certainly control when it attacks, how it attacks, and how long it attacks for, and that is just as much "real" pvp as anything a mage or warrior does. I've already said this, but I'll say it again, as you don't seem to be getting the point.

You are casting the spells, or swinging that mace, your character is, you just instruct your character when and where to cast those spells, or swing that mace, which is exactly what a pvp tamer does with her pet. Yes they are played differently, and require different skills, but I guarantee you that I have invested just as much effort and just as many resources, and just as much skill as most elite pvp mages or warrior has, and probably more than most, into being a pvp tamer.

Have I invested as much as you specifically? Am I as skilled or as experienced as you are specifically? I have no idea, and that isn't the point here, the point here is that I have every bit as much right to be in pvp as you do, and have the right to all the same considerations that you do as well. You don't have to put up with a curse that drastically weakens the ability of your character to do damage as a mage or a warrior, without being able to respond to it in a guard zone, or take a murder count outside a guard zone, and tamers shouldn't have to either.



And I love how tamer haters always come back with, "I'm not a tamer hater, I have a tamer too." No you aren't a tamer hater, you just don't want them playing in the same playground as you. No you aren't a tamer hater, you just don't want to have any contact with them in what you claim is the "only reason" you play the game. Yes you have a tamer, but no you don't have much experience as a tamer in pvp, so it's pretty safe to say that I know quite a bit more about the challenges facing tamers in pvp, and the skills involved, than you do...

The idea here though, is that a tamer with a gdrag (which is doing perhaps 80 HP fire breath) bolas a rider, who now has this drag on top of them. Furthermore, my own tamer (120 mage/eval/med) can be dropping spells on them as well, so essentially ONE individual is controlling two mages and a wrestling/dexxer. Yes, I can see how this is balanced.rolleyes:

 

[Llewen]

Lord GOD just laid some logical smackdown

Yes, he made some good points about the dual clienting, and yes of course you would agree with him on everything else because he is a tamer hater just like you are.

 

[Llewen]

The idea here though, is that a tamer with a gdrag (which is doing perhaps 80 HP fire breath) bolas a rider, who now has this drag on top of them. Furthermore, my own tamer (120 mage/eval/med) can be dropping spells on them as well, so essentially ONE individual is controlling two mages and a wrestling/dexxer. Yes, I can see how this is balanced.rolleyes:

And if you know anything about pvp, which you claim to do, you would know that mobility is king, and what a tamer with a greater dragon gains in offencive punch, she loses in mobility, and I'll repeat what I said before, even a player on foot can easily outrun a greater dragon. Yes fighting a tamer with a greater dragon requires changing your tactics, but no they aren't unbeatable, I see them beaten one on one all the time, and if you can't do it, perhaps you need some schooling...

 

[Revenant2]

2. I find it hilarious how you could not support your initial position (dual clienting) because you had no facts, so now you switch and try to attack folks saying they could very well be using two PC's. Lame.

You switched positions, not me. I did actually "have the facts" that the person was dual clienting and you ignored this and went on with your own way to run 2 clients for this kind of thing. And in that position switch of yours, your way of avoiding officially "dual clienting" was to utilize a functionally unattended client on a seperate PC that was performing automated movement (auto-follow on a pet).

Now that I think about it, I know someone who had an account banned for what the GMs thought was exactly this kind of thing.

I don't think it will be productive for me to continue responding to you, given what I'm seeing in your posts to this point.