Something I needed to get off my chest.......

[old gypsy]

I have a low tolerance for bullies. Perhaps that's why I don't waste my time trying to communicate with them (or trying to compete with them). I can always find something else to do that's far more rewarding.

 

[kelmo]

any of you folks remember agreeing to this?

11. Rules of Conduct

You may violate the Terms of Service if, as determined by EA in its sole discretion, you:

- Post, transmit, promote, or distribute Content that is illegal.
- Harass, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another player that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc.
- Organize, effectuate or participate in any activity, group, guild that is harmful, abusive, hateful, racially, ethnically, religiously or otherwise offensive, obscene, threatening, bullying, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, encourages conduct that would violate a law or in a reasonable person's view, objectionable and/or inappropriate. Hate speech is not tolerated.
- Use abusive, offensive, or defamatory screen names and/or personas.
- Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of EA Services. Disruptive behavior includes but is not limited to conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within an EA Service. Disruptive behavior shall also include, but not be limited to, commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements.
- Disrupt the flow of chat in chat rooms with vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting [all caps] in an attempt to disturb other users, "spamming" or flooding [posting repetitive text].
- Impersonate another person (including celebrities), indicate falsely that you are an EA employee or a representative of EA, or attempt to mislead users by indicating that you represent EA or any of EA's partners or affiliates.
- Attempt to get a password, account information, or other private information from anyone else on EA Services.
- Upload any software or Content that you do not own or have permission to freely distribute.
- Violate any additional Rules of Conduct applicable to a specific EA Service that you are using.
- Promote, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or virtual currency/items.
- Upload files that contain a virus, worm, spyware, time bombs, corrupted data or other computer programs that may damage, interfere with or disrupt EA Services.
- Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.
- Improperly use in-game support or complaint buttons or make false reports to EA staff.
- Use or distribute unauthorized "auto" software programs, "macro" software programs or other "cheat utility" software program or applications.
- Use any game hacking/altering/cheating software or tools.
- Modify or attempt to modify any file or any other part of the EA Service that EA does not specifically authorize you to modify.
- Post or communicate any person's real-world personal information using an EA Service.
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- Use and communicate exploits and/or cheats.
- Attempt to use EA Software on or through any service that is not controlled or authorized by Electronic Arts. Any such use is at your own risk and may subject you to additional or different terms. EA takes no responsibility for your use of EA Software on or through any service that is not controlled by Electronic Arts.
- Interfere with the ability of others to enjoy playing an EA Service or take actions that interfere with or materially increase the cost to provide an EA Service for the enjoyment of all its users.
- Unless expressly authorized by EA, you may not sell, buy, trade or otherwise transfer your Account or any personal access to EA Services, Content or Entitlements, including by use of auction websites.
- You may not conduct any activities that violate the laws of any jurisdiction including but not limited to copyright infringement, trademark infringement, defamation, invasion of privacy, identity theft, hacking, stalking, fraud and the distribution of counterfeit software.
- Post or transmit unsolicited advertising, promotional materials or other forms of solicitation in-game or in the forums.
- Abuse or exploit bugs, undocumented features, design errors or problems in the game.
- “Role–playing” is not an excuse for violating this or any other policy.

Specific EA Services may also post additional rules that apply to your conduct on those services.

You must also obey all federal, state, and local laws, regulations and rules that apply to your activities when you use EA Services. EA reserves the right to terminate your Account and to prevent your use of any and all EA Services if your Account is used to engage in illegal activity or to violate this Terms of Service.

Unless otherwise specified, there is no requirement or expectation that EA will monitor or record any online activity on EA Services, including communications. However, EA reserves the right to access and/or record any online activity on EA Services and you give EA your express consent to access and record your activities. EA reserves the right to remove any content from any EA Service at EA's sole discretion. EA has no liability for your or any third party's violation of this Agreement.

If you encounter another user who is violating any of the Rules of Conduct, please report this activity to EA using the "Help" or "Report Abuse" functions in the relevant EA Service, if available, or contact Customer Support at help.ea.com, support.popcap.com(for PopCap products) or swtor.com/support (for Star Wars™: The Old Republic)

 

[MalagAste]

I wish that it worked really well Kelmo. I have been the subject of griefing on many occasions and it does get irritating.... best advice is to use the ignore button a LOT... I've used ignore.... I've pretended they aren't there... I've spent entire EM events with 10 idiots purposely standing on my character the entire event... after awhile I decided I'd just keep the idiots on me and out of the event by standing as far as possible from what was going on so they would miss most everything happening and keep from annoying the rest of the folk... that worked well for a few events... was almost kinda fun as I had friends there in Vent telling me everything so I really didn't miss anything and kept the circus clowns away from everyone else so they didn't spoil the show for anyone. Felt sort of like a Kindergarten teacher... or a duck with a bunch of ducklings all around me.

Anyway .... I've seen my fair share of griefing ..... best is to ignore them but don't let them ruin your fun. Anymore I've found if someone wants to be a jerk and hog some area and push you out just go find something else to do. There was a guy on GL's who used to delight in not letting anyone gain Resisting spells from the Spellbinders. Anyone who had 3 or more on them he would come up and kill them all... several times a day he would patrol the old Haven area and do this.... eventually he must have got tired of it and quit... but it was extremely annoying.

Back in the day I remember folk who used to go down into Shame where the Blood Ele's spawned and they would try to take the spawns from everyone else. Also annoying....

 

[G.v.P]

As bad as things ever get on the UO forums, League of Legends forums are about 10 million times more toxic. Not sure about other games, but man. You regularly have threads on League of Legends general about people contemplating suicide, and posters saying "Do it," or worse.

 

[Aran]

As bad as things ever get on the UO forums, League of Legends forums are about 10 million times more toxic. Not sure about other games, but man. You regularly have threads on League of Legends general about people contemplating suicide, and posters saying "Do it," or worse.

Yeah, well, the average age of a LoL player is like... 13.

 

[Smoot]

just curious, what was that "rules of conduct" from? was that the stratics one? i didnt realize they were that much controlled by EA.

 

[G.v.P]

Yeah, well, the average age of a LoL player is like... 13.

It's more than just the age, it's the upvote/downvote culture. But it is mostly the age, ;P.

Like every post there is like reddit, etc., where you can up or downvote. Say what you will about Facebook, good UO people, but they did things right when they introduced the "Like" button (now seen here on this iteration of UHALL). It's a positive-only feedback which doesn't give in to the more toxic places around the 'Net.

I don't know how you all feel, but this meme culture just wasn't as developed back in my generation's days! We had Fark, and all that (photoshop manipulation), but nowadays it's gotten crazy...the World Cup really emphasized how crazy, when someone thought to take a picture of an upset Brazilian fan and transpose that image to the World Cup logo. As a sports writer I just never got into memes, and still hate when other writers strive to produce them (although I am always surprised at how fast content becomes transposed into GIFs).

 

[Aran]

just curious, what was that "rules of conduct" from? was that the stratics one? i didnt realize they were that much controlled by EA.

any of you folks remember agreeing to this?

Well, you can put Smoot down for a no.

That's UO's RoC

 

[Aran]

It's a positive-only feedback which doesn't give in to the more toxic places around the 'Net.

So what you're saying is you can only survive in a hugbox environment? Yeesh. There's more to feedback than just "GOOD JOB KIDDO YOU DONE DID GOOD!" Without negative feedback, how can someone improve?

 

[G.v.P]

So what you're saying is you can only survive in a hugbox environment? Yeesh. There's more to feedback than just "GOOD JOB KIDDO YOU DONE DID GOOD!" Without negative feedback, how can someone improve?

Haha it's just anti-social! Facebook is the "social network" ;P.

For anti-socialness I go to IMDB, as you know, and League, even Reddit once in awhile but not too often. Nice to have a balance.

 

[kronides]

So what you're saying is you can only survive in a hugbox environment? Yeesh. There's more to feedback than just "GOOD JOB KIDDO YOU DONE DID GOOD!" Without negative feedback, how can someone improve?

I think he means insulting and deriding people, which is what the preponderance of negative communication online is. Insults and derision aren't feedback.

As far as I know, not many object to genuine negative feedback, because you're right, that's where improvement comes from.

 

[Ludes]

First I'd like to say I follow Jirel's post myself.. because she always feels strongly about what she's posting about.. sometimes it's negative and sometimes it's positive.. but she obviously loves our game.. she's not one of our resident trolls..
That said..
Griefing people and being a bully is simply human nature... when I was in my college days they taught me all kinds of explanations as to why this is.. I could list them all out but most of you folks already know why some people are like that...
Ultima Online was my first really good , immersive MMO... and it was tough... I was young then so I eagerly changed my game play to hunting reds with my little group of friends...

But that got old so I learned to just work around the people who's gamestyle I didn't like.

I play a lot of games.. I've seen haters in them all.. but just like RL I can always find ways to enjoy myself while avoiding them..

 

[Smoot]

Well, you can put Smoot down for a no.

That's UO's RoC

lol. i do however remember reading the UO harassment procedure tho a while back when my friend was having some problems. thats besides the point tho. I keep it pretty clean usually, but didnt even realize the language limitations are pretty lose in regular overhead chat. (we're allowed to curse ) not in the public chat, just overheard.

The Tos are pretty lenient, and honestly i find it a privilege that "bullying" is possible. Im not saying i think its cool to be rude, or mean, or degrading. its not, its childish.

What i do think is cool is we can play a game where we are free to do what we want. Some countries ban video games and severely limit what their people are and are not exposed to. It might not be pleasant at times, but at least we have the freedom to have the experience in the first place.

 

[azmodanb]

im so sick of this bullying campaign garbage on tv... and in games.

ignore it... online.
i rl beat this crap out the bully.

nough said.

this whole campaign is for the weak. like religion.

 

[Ludes]

Smoot I've always seen you play a pretty "honorable" type of gameplay... I'm curious how do you deal with griefers?

 

[Uvtha]

It's more than just the age, it's the upvote/downvote culture. But it is mostly the age, ;P.

I also frequent an MLB forum that seems to be comprised of people 30 and up, and but trolling, nonsense, and stupidity are absurdly rampant. These forums are a breath of sweet fresh air in comparison.

 

[Hannes Erich]

Compared to many games since, griefers have always had a tentative stay of execution in UO. In the beginning, unsavory types were welcomed in by the developers with open arms. Lord British wanted the thieves and the murderers to come in and make heroes out of us. And at first, the devs were committed to giving us rewards and the tools to police the darker elements, and bring order to the land. But we saw how that experiment went. It was a hard lesson for game developers. The game had also welcomed crafters and explorers and monster hunters, and so in they came, and were quickly and often disenfranchised. Those players and their wallets couldn't be ignored. The wild west had to go. Had the game engine possessed the capacity for spreading "influence borders", non-PvP lawful boundaries around roads and player-built towns, we may never have seen the Trammel/Felucca split. The good, the bad, and the neutral might still exist in a complex ecosystem requiring community-building and mutually-assured protection. But that kind of technology didn't exist back then. So the split had to happen, and it took something away from everyone. Imagine our surprise when grief-play continued to happen even after the split. Unfortunately, the most important lesson learned in this experiment fell by the wayside. The thieves and the murderers--as long as they were controlled by player characters--were the experiment's biggest failure. To a degree, the game continues to legitimize anti-social behavior that is problematic enough even in games where it is entirely unsupported.

A few years ago, this was the kind of topic that I would have been all over--if not writing it myself--decrying the griefers and bullies, calling the devs out, demanding more focus on surrounding issues. And while my opinion of grief-play hasn't changed and my disgust for those who blame victims remains, I don't think this community is capable of adding anything new to the subject. Nearly two decades of UO and other MMOs have shaped my perspective on the only factor that I can absolutely control in these situations: myself. Grief-play isn't right, but what really burns me up is when I react to it in a way that I later regret. Grief-play isn't going anywhere, especially not in UO. Life isn't fair, and it often calls on us, whether through events, circumstances, or negative people, to show our true colors in fair and unfair situations. That's what I've learned over these many years, and I do my best to show that I've learned it.

That's not to say that the griefers are doing us a favor or that they deserve some place in the ecosystem of life. Online or offline, they're always quick to tell others to leave if they can't handle things, when the simple truth is, the world would be a better place if they, the griefers, were the ones to leave. We know it, and so do a portion of the griefers who aren't too messed up in the head to grok empathy, or the point behind communities and social contracts.

There's always been something warped about the more negative personalities in these threads advising others to grow a thicker skin--as if they have any clue about caring for other peoples needs; But I do support the notion of nicer, more positive, truly good people digging deep into themselves, rising to the occasion as Lord British would say, and asking themselves what they should do with all of their history and experience and lessons. It's got to be good for something, especially in the Ultima universe. And, really, if you're reading this and if you've got a good head on your shoulders, then I don't have to say anything else.

 

[FrejaSP]

To Hannas Erich
That's your view of it and I guess your believe, that's ok, but that do not mean you are right
It's a role play game, and because someone choose to play the evil side of the game, it does not make them to grief players.

The funny thing is, Siege is the shard with less Grief play in UO. You can guess how UO would had been without Trammel but you can't know.
The biggest mistake done was to only listen to one side and split the shards. They should had made a few happy shards and had let old shards stay as they was.

UO year 1997 to 1998 was a wonderful world, I never had trouble I could not handle with a little RP and respect for others play style. And no, even when I choose to go red, when they started to ruin the game, first with stat loss and then with the split, I doubt you can find any of my victims, who will call my play style grief.

The game are heading the right way now, Our Dark Lady can see what a lot formed lead devs missed. I hope they someday can get rid of the split ad instead have a kind of PvP switch. If you only want to interact with NPC murderers and thieves, then ok, but as you have less risk for losing your stuff, you may work harder to fill your loot bag, but you will get it home safe.

If it had not been for Siege, I had not played UO today.

Your post and the one you linked to, is poison for UO, I hope no one will listen to you.

 

[The Old Man]

There is a big difference between my Toon griefing yr Toon (As a Paladin I hate vampires and I'm going to kill you every time I see you) and a player griefing another player (Yr mother is Fat & you should go kill yrself).
One is legit gameplay, the other needs to be stomped on by a GM (or on Siege by the community).

 

[Veldrane]

What I find interesting is some people's line in the sand on what is bullying.

I'm evidently a bully because I was in the same hunting spot that another player was hunting in even though I never touched the mobs he was on and neither of us had to wait for one to kill. It would seem to some folks there is no difference between me showing up at the Golden Elementals and hunting in the same proximity to another player and the individual that stalked my wife online to follow her around and make sexually suggestive advances every time he could.

I'm definitely not blaming the victim in the case of actual bullying, those individuals need dealt with, but some people just get bent out of shape for no reason and throw the bully card anytime something doesn't go their way.

 

[CountSilverbow]

I didnt lure the spawn onto you i was running from the fire breathing dragon..

 

[Smoot]

Smoot I've always seen you play a pretty "honorable" type of gameplay... I'm curious how do you deal with griefers?

i just keep on playing. if its too troublesome i leave. insults really amuse me more than agitate. i hunt alot in fel on a sampire (not the best pvp character) a few times i come back with a real pvp character if im pked. I dont mind one death but when the guy kills you over and over just because he can it frustrating. comunication kept to a bare minimum.

if its something "big" that breaks ToS only thing you can do is report.
Honestly not alot gets to me. Some of the things from freinds ive heard them get upset about, im usually like "why do you even care"
If its a reputation thing, a strong reputation cant be harmed much from a griefer.

Best way to combat a griefer is to keep having fun despite the fact.

theres things that get to me alot more than greifing. cheating / scripting mainly. i would take griefing over cheating anyday.

im friends with many active / prominent players. alot of them have encountered griefing. The more people that like you, the more likely someone is going to be jealous, or try to ruin your reputation or game. its good see when they realize that its nothing they have done, it cant be prevented, and they just keep on doing what their doing and not take it personal.

 

[FrejaSP]

There is a big difference between my Toon griefing yr Toon (As a Paladin I hate vampires and I'm going to kill you every time I see you) and a player griefing another player (Yr mother is Fat & you should go kill yrself).
One is legit gameplay, the other needs to be stomped on by a GM (or on Siege by the community).

Agree, but what make me mad, is when someone can't see the diff.
Player Killers and Thieves, who keep it Toon vs Toon was a part of the game and not Grief.
The problem back in 1997 was, we did all love this wonderful game but for some, getting your char killed of an other players char, was a big problem for some players. They wanted a different game.

 

[Lady Storm]

I think when the game first came out Richard Garrott had little clue to what dangers that lurked in the consept of Griefing.
The free of guilt mind set the average player was a given by the loose determination of what was ok and what was not could unleash if given that inch of rope to run wild.
When he let a good deal of griefing go unchecked and didnt pose limits that were harsh enough to warrant caution in the ranks.
In 97 the web was the new toy and many of us who were active used our common sense and curbed our thoughts and tougue(typing of thoughts) to a more social norm.
However...... the young who learned very quickly mommy and daddy were not looking at EVERY word out of their fingers or what they were doing to others.
Also there was the older player who took to litterly the intent and went in full bore to reak havoc to a more heavy degree then the kids
UO like most games sense became ground zero for every bad day at home, work, or school,
I have seen and heard things in game that would make any cringe. The raw hatered some let loose on the unwarry.
One person I saw haunted one group of players for over an hour... bent on getting them to fight him (asume it was a he as we all know just becaue the character is of one gender it could be opposite in rl running said creature).
Each year I saw the game become more filled with actions that if done in RL would get many in deep trouble at home or in legal eyes.
There was even where things in game spilt over into RL.... sad to say some even went so far as to murder another to see if it wasas fun in RL as it was in game.
Ultimatly it is our fault for not giving ourselves and our children set limits of exceptable actions on the web.
I have heard in chat on mnay shards taunts that are something when I was a counselor I'd of slammed their tails so fast in the jail for.
Things like go kill yourself your so pathetic... I read in chat only yesterday on Atlantic.
The GM's of old did not tollerate what we have today, their only limit was it had to be seen or in logs sent to the help section.
Unfortunately many of these players hide behind their screens with family and friends oblivious of the devil that dwells in their actions on the games...
We have been too tollerant in allowing this behavior of what we would decry in public.

 

[FrejaSP]

There are an ignore options in game, you don't have to listen to them. Ignore them and don't let them get the joy from hurting you.
Sure there may be a few mentally ill playing the game, but they can't really hurt you in game and the game may have a positive effect on them.
PK's and Thieves who play by the rules of the game have nothing to do with grief or the little guy with a mental problem, who trash talk you, when he can't handle something.

I had so much joy the first year of UO and no, I did not play a PK or a thief, I was just a women playing UO. I live the crafting, I love killing monsters, I love my house and I loved the interact with other players, red, thieves as well as blue.

 

[kronides]

Richard Garriot and Raph Koster had too high an opinion of human nature. (They don't have it now, but they did then.) They thought a few people would roleplay evil characters, sure, but most would play the white hats. However, full loot was a very major incentive to playing a pk and farming new players and roleplayers and other more or less helpless characters. It was much easier than killing dragons or crafting, and a lot of reds and red guilds got very very rich by preying on those who could not, and for the most part never wanted, to fight back.

90+% of these pk's were not roleplaying, don't be silly. That is absolutely false. They were taking advantage of game-breaking holes in the system that in retrospect should never have been there.

 

[Aran]

"design choices" != "holes in the system"

 

[kronides]

The same guys reversed those design choices when they saw how it turned out. That is what I meant by those words.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I'm going to call a halt to this. I think it's gone far enough.