Since you devs worried about pvp "balance"

[aarons6]

why dont you guys actually fix something broken..

tracking with 0 skill is too powerful.
i believe to track a player with 100 hiding and 100 stealth you should have to have 100 tracking for a 50% chance.

0-50 skill 0% chance
50-gm scaled chance.

to track a player with NO hiding or stealth you get a greater chance.. maybe 100% at gm.

right now as it is, any human char can track players screens away with NO SKILL.


also one BROKEN thing that should be fixed instead of chiv and making mages more powerful is AUTO REVEAL..

players should never be auto revealed with anything less then gm tracking and detect hidden.. yes that's right, BOTH SKILLS..

no tracking, no detect, no auto reveal.

 

[Raptor85]

i agree with you about tracking, the current formula makes it super easy to track people in stealth with no skill, i think tracking should be a direct check vs the enemy stealth skill, if you dont have 75 track you have no chance to detect someone at 75 stealth, at 75 track you have a 50% chance to track at 75 stealth (or maybe the average of stealth + hiding, weighted towards stealth)

detect hidden should give a small bonus for tracking, but as is now you need not bother with real tracking skill at all, with GM detect you can detect ANYONE and track anyone even screens away

Ugh, i'd forgotten the horror if passive detect, it's not SO bad vs warriors, but in playing a thief, unless your mark is stupid, once you're revealed you're essentially done for. With everyone being able to passive detect, it's nearly impossible to stay hidden around a bunch of people with no detect at 100 hiding 120 stealth. I'm SOOOO glad siege has no passive detect. (even said as someone with detect + tracking to hunt stealthers)

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Jack of all trades, you are saying they should eliminate this?

Sounds to me like stealthers want a free pass.

 

[Violence]

Re:

Uuuh.. Free Pass? In what way, the 180-220 Vs. 0 Invested Skill Points way? Yeah, complete FREEDOM you're talking about.

 

[Tinsil]

I don't agree with a direct check. Stealth is still very powerful, despite what some people say.

But let's do nerf the JOAT tracking, players with 100 hide/stealth should not be detected with no real skill investment. Maybe make 40-50 the level where you can detect gm hide/stealth reliably.

This seems low, but if you do a direct check vs skills, no one is going to use tracking and it creates another skill that sucks, 40-50 pts is a big investment for a skill that has very limited usage.

 

[aarons6]

I don't agree with a direct check. Stealth is still very powerful, despite what some people say.

But let's do nerf the JOAT tracking, players with 100 hide/stealth should not be detected with no real skill investment. Maybe make 40-50 the level where you can detect gm hide/stealth reliably.

This seems low, but if you do a direct check vs skills, no one is going to use tracking and it creates another skill that sucks, 40-50 pts is a big investment for a skill that has very limited usage.

so you're saying if you have to gm a skill it will suck?

if you have gm hiding and stealth you should have to have gm tracking and detect hidden for a chance to track.

 

[Tinsil]

Except tracking is nowhere near as powerful of skills as hiding/stealth. Not even close.

 

[icm420]

In order to get rid of jot tracking they need to make actual tracking work better. I have gm tracking on a character and let me tell you it doesn't work very well. I pick up more stealthers then I would on jot, but the chances are very low considering I am a using 100 skill points to find you. To increase this percentage I have to also spend points for detect hidden. Now consider that tracking doesn't do anything to help your character. A stealther is hidden from sight. So 200 skill points to find people with no advantage in terms of survival vs 220 skill points to hide and sneak around I don't see how you can complain.

 

[icm420]

Oh also hide/stealth receives bonus's from ninja, they are related skills and so they work well together. Most stealthers are therefor ninjas and get specialized abilites, spells.

A tracker gets absolutly no benefit from the skill. No skill is aided by tracking, with the exception of deathstrike which also requires hiding and stealth. Detect hidden can reveal but once again compared to hiding and stealth it is very very weak.

Also there is no timer for a guy to stealth after being hidden. You take one step and your stealthing. A tracker has an 8 second timer inbetween tracks then another timer on top to detect hidden. To take away jot tracking would be effectivly allowing people to hide forever with no consquence. They already made it so that earthquake has a horribly low chance to reveal, so basically the idea here is stealthers want to never be found and never die because they invested 220 skill points?

 

[Lord_Puffy]

What about the insta pet log that has been used and abused for years now?

I think tamers have been and always will be over powered, let alone a stealth ninja tamer.

When can we expect a fix on this? So a player cant just log out his pet and log back in to try to fight

 

[weins201]

Stealther revealed with 0 skill compared to insta log


LMAO please stay on topic these two have absolutly nothing in common, one is clearly a skill imbalance and the other is a byproduct of pet lose issues.

0 Tracking should NEVER be able to track somone with GM or better hiding and stealth and the calculations show this, it is CLEARLY broken and should be fixed.

AND yes JOAT should be removed, give humans another balance perhaps a little more strenght than and elf? JOAT is ABUSED to high hell.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Re:

Uuuh.. Free Pass? In what way, the 180-220 Vs. 0 Invested Skill Points way? Yeah, complete FREEDOM you're talking about.

Show me a viable mage template with detect hidden and tracking and I will show you crafter capable of soloing anything in the game.

First stealthers complained about elves, and now they want to complain about humans? Seems to me stealthers won't be happy until another player has absolutely no way to track them.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Re: Stealther revealed with 0 skill compared to insta log

LMAO please stay on topic these two have absolutly nothing in common, one is clearly a skill imbalance and the other is a byproduct of pet lose issues.

0 Tracking should NEVER be able to track somone with GM or better hiding and stealth and the calculations show this, it is CLEARLY broken and should be fixed.

AND yes JOAT should be removed, give humans another balance perhaps a little more strenght than and elf? JOAT is ABUSED to high hell.

Umm...the chances of a person to pick up another player with tracking are roughly around 10% or less when you factor in forms and fail rates. Hardly seems *overpowered* to me.

I got a better idea...take stealthing/hiding out of the game. How about those apples?

 

[Raptor85]

Re:

Show me a viable mage template with detect hidden and tracking and I will show you crafter capable of soloing anything in the game.

First stealthers complained about elves, and now they want to complain about humans? Seems to me stealthers won't be happy until another player has absolutely no way to track them.

Assuming you don't have the resources to add +skill to a suit:

120 magery
120 eval
120 med
100 inscription
100 detect
80 track (this is 100% unnecessary right now, as 100 detect gives you effective 50 track also)
80 anat/ resist spells (depending on whether using a mage wep or not)

it should be noted that detect severely boosts the reveal spell also, which has no cooldown timer and can be spammed, so why even bother tracking on a mage, if you know they're nearby just cast reveal, at gm detect it's basically the entire screen.

Hell, I'll save you from having to fill out the "crafter able to solo anything in the game" too, it's simple.

104.7 taming
104.7 lore
70.6 magery
100 arms lore
100 alchemy
120 imbue
120 tailoring or blacksmithy

use the alch for invis pots and greater conflags if you get trapped, make sure to craft yourself a 40lmc suit

 

[Tinsil]

120 magery
120 eval
120 med
100 inscription
100 detect
80 track (this is 100% unnecessary right now, as 100 detect gives you effective 50 track also)
80 anat/ resist spells (depending on whether using a mage wep or not)

This template sucks horribly. This is all implying you can actually track them, detect them on the run, then if you do that, they instantly smoke bomb or will just rehide. You're extremely gimped vs any other character as well.

So the template you just made to specifically kill stealthers --- 1. isn't going to kill stealthers anyways, 2. You still have a real hard time even getting them out of stealth with all the tools they have, 3. is gimped horribly vs any other player.

Stealth is NOT underpowered in the slightest.

 

[Raptor85]

120 magery
120 eval
120 med
100 inscription
100 detect
80 track (this is 100% unnecessary right now, as 100 detect gives you effective 50 track also)
80 anat/ resist spells (depending on whether using a mage wep or not)

This template sucks horribly. This is all implying you can actually track them, detect them on the run, then if you do that, they instantly smoke bomb or will just rehide. You're extremely gimped vs any other character as well.

So the template you just made to specifically kill stealthers --- 1. isn't going to kill stealthers anyways, 2. You still have a real hard time even getting them out of stealth with all the tools they have, 3. is gimped horribly vs any other player.

Stealth is NOT underpowered in the slightest.

Smoke bomb, yes, but that's ninjitsu, not stealth, and requires another 70 points in ninja skill (though i agree, those stupid bombs need a timer, and i wish people would stop asking for stealth nerfs when it's ninjitsu that's the problem).

At gm detect, their timer to re hide is fairly long, in that time with this template you can EASILY get them poisoned, then flamestrike + exp + para . Remember, their template is horribly gimped by at least 175 points in skill, so they're a fairly easy kill. As for the tracking chance, to track a legendary stealther/gm hider with this template (and lets face it, nobody runs with that high of stealth who intends to have combat skills), the chance is about 45% per click, so at most it takes 2 tries to get a lock on them which lasts for a few minutes.

My red SPECIALIZES in killing stealthers, it funded my castle and most of the gear inside it, so let me assure you, anyone complaining about not being able to detect stealthers isn't really trying. it only takes me 100 skill points to 100% negate their 175 skill points, which highly favors me in combat, and I'm not a mage so i even have to wait through the skill timer on every attempt.

If what you're looking for though is a god build, that's 100% combat ability and 100% negates everyone elses skills without needing to build for it, it doesn't exist and shouldn't exist, sure there's imbalances in the game, and a few effect stealth (plate being no stronger than leather, ninjitsu items not having any timer), it sounds like the weak point in your build is the inability to properly reveal, you probably traded that off for higher combat strength. Your complaint is along the same line of saying that magery is overpowered due to being able to constantly paralyze, and you don't want to "waste" skill points getting resist spells or carrying items to negate it (trapped crate in case of paralyze, greater conflags do a great job vs stealthers)

 

[The_Dude_]

Why is everytime someone complains about getting detected or tracked in this case you always bundle in stealth and hiding. Saying OMG 220 pnts wasted by 0. You realize stealth lets you move around thats its point. So all that should ever be mentioned is hiding. 100 skill VS jack of all trades thats still 20 skill. Its never 220 skill its just 100.

 

[The_Dude_]

Another thing that would be nice is to make stealthers have to use the stealth skill instead of it auto checking. How fun would that be i mean if i track you i have to wait for skill timer to reset to detect you. You on the other hand get to hide and immediately walk how much fun would it be for you to have to hide and wait for skill timer to use stealth to move away. It was always fun to have to count your steps back in the day now its just hide and walk no counting. Hell they even gave you a skill set to make it so you can walk faster as well. Stop crying.

 

[Waylander]

It is pretty obvious that the detect skill using joat is a bit silly but unfortunately to many players have died to stealthers for there to be a serious duscussion...

 

[aarons6]

this isnt an issue about stealthers in general

its an issue about 0 skill vs hiding/stealth.

right now JOAT can track players with gm hiding skill and auto revealing players with up to 120 stealth..

pretty much end of story.

 

[Cetric]

this isnt an issue about stealthers in general

its an issue about 0 skill vs hiding/stealth.

right now JOAT can track players with gm hiding skill and auto revealing players with up to 120 stealth..

pretty much end of story.

So? If you couldnt sometimes track a stealther, and they didn't get auto revealed so often when they walked close to you, ninjas would become too hard to kill, they have smoke bombs and animal form as it is...

 

[Tinsil]

So? If you couldnt sometimes track a stealther, and they didn't get auto revealed so often when they walked close to you, ninjas would become too hard to kill, they have smoke bombs and animal form as it is...

Yes they're already very hard to kill if the player knows what he's doing at all. A lot of stealthers don't though.

Not to mention stealth adds offensive power through DS too.

 

[Viper09]

I run a stealth thief with GM detect (I use it mainly for scripters and so no one can hide from my thief).

With shadow jump and animal form I can elude most people with the exception of the rare persistent tracker which leads me to having to keep going or recall out.

With my GM detect I can sometimes track stealthers, but it isn't easy. And personally I think that's BS. With such a low level of tracking it just doesn't make ANY sense why I should be able to track someone with even GM stealth/hiding. Let a lone 120 stealth/GM hiding. Passive detect is enough with 0 skill without having people be able to track stealthers with 0 real skill.

Should take at least 80 tracking to be able to track GM stealthers. Don't care if you think it will make them overpowered. It just shouldn't work the way it is now. There needs to be a reason to gain in a skill. You shouldn't be getting the benefits of high points in a skill without the points.

Face it, it's broken.

 

[Waylander]

So? If you couldnt sometimes track a stealther, and they didn't get auto revealed so often when they walked close to you, ninjas would become too hard to kill, they have smoke bombs and animal form as it is...

They have also invested quite a lot of skill points to be able to do this. 100 Hiding 80 to 120 Stealth and at least 50 ninja to use a smoke bomb. Thats a minimum of 230 skill points used up not including any offensive / defensive skills.

It is a joke that someone who has invested 0 skill points is able to track and reveal someone who HAS invested a minimum of 230 skill points.

Once you know the stealther is there its not hard to be prepared for him/her. The only time you wouldnt (if it was fixed) is the initial attack or theft. Instead of wanting a class of character nerfed to hell try thinking about tactics and ways to defend yourself.

Brains > Brawn

On a side topic kindly fix poisoning as well!! Put a timer on cure pots!

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Why people bring up skill required in this topic is beyond me. Stealthers are one of the easiest templates to play in the game. Period.

Seems to me you all won't stop complaining until a mage is required to carry 1000 skill points on their damn temps just to reveal you. IMO any area spell cast should auto reveal all stealthers each and every time.

I also hear constant complaints mage weps, but I never ever hear complaints about potions and trapped boxes being used to circumvent the resisting spells skill.

All this crap is relative to the type of temps you like to play. I say quit complaining and learn to adapt to NECESSARY CHANGE. Its obvious the rules of pvp were designed for a system pre imbue/mass arties/uber items...now that we are past that time changes need to be made to keep up with the jones'.

@raptor...try out that template and see how it works...good luck sammichin all the stuff in.

 

[Lord X]

0 skill vs. 220 is BS. No matter how many times you slice it. Want a solution? Fix it, and have a member of your guild run around with such a template thats good vs. stealthers.... ive ran such a char on my second comp at times at spawns and yew gate. Sure its a pain, but really are you arguing every template should be able to 100% kill every other template? Thats what it sounds like. With EQ, poison fields, thunderstorm, meteor storm, conflag pots etc, I dont even understand the issue here.

 

[Waylander]

@ Restroom....

I like how you complain about bringing up "skill required" when it comes to stealthers but then go and complain about trapped boxes circumventing resisting spells which just happens to be a skill.

As for stealthers being the easiest template to play in the game im guessing you have never seen a tamer? All kill must be a damn hard macro to set or something..... Then we have the good old archer.... If you want to be taken seriously then kindly take a few minutes and think before typing.

Skill investment should always be superior to JOAT no matter what the skill is.

Pretty simple if you stop and think for a second or two.

 

[Viper09]

Why people bring up skill required in this topic is beyond me.

Because it just doesn't make any good sense getting the benefits of high level tracking at 0 real skill. They could allow magic reveal work on stealthers for all I care but tracking needs to be fixed. A player with 0 taming can't tame a dragon.

Not sure why they removed magic reveal for working on high skill hiding though...just make it work based on the level of their magic/eval and the hiding skill of the target.

 

[Cetric]

Maybe stealthers should be taken out of the game..lol no prolly gunna get flamed for that one.

Seriously... hiding/tracking is fine, i have a ninja dexer, and if was any easier to play i wouldn't be able to handle it.

If you need to justify your skill points, justify it by deathstrike damage or something.

PS. I also have a gm detect/tracker. Works like a charm when needed.



This entire thread is almost a joke, sure on paper this "doesn't seem fair" but in real application it is about as fair as fair gets. To use an example, someone mentioned disarm - Should one special negate someones weap skill/tactics/etc/etc. omg you wasted allll those skill points just to have one special take them away... oommmggg.

 

[Viper09]

This entire thread is almost a joke, sure on paper this "doesn't seem fair" but in real application it is about as fair as fair gets. To use an example, someone mentioned disarm - Should one special negate someones weap skill/tactics/etc/etc. omg you wasted allll those skill points just to have one special take them away... oommmggg.

...except that special move to negate the others skill requires you to have skill points to use. Unlike tracking here.

Unless your intent here was to say something else, then perhaps clarify?

 

[MalagAste]

Jack of all trades, you are saying they should eliminate this?

Sounds to me like stealthers want a free pass.

No real skill should NEVER outweigh true skill.

With 120 steath and GM hiding you should NOT EVER know I'm there with JOAT.

I agree 100% ...... And I've said this many times... And it also shouldn't make any difference if I'm warred and orange to a player whether or not I'm revealed by passive reveal. You need REAL skill for that and it needs to be properly scaled for skill.

 

[Saint of Killers]

Mmmm...I love joat tracking. It's one of the few reasons to still play a human in this game (joat focus, med, ss, weaving are other solid reasons obv).

 

[puni666]

If you somehow get revealed you should use one of the multiple ways to hide again. Lets see Shadow strike, smoke bombs, the skill hiding, invis potions, invis items. Not really sure what the problem is.

Why are you complaining about getting revealed here and there when you're technically in plain sight of everyone? I don't really get how you're hiding and stealthing around in an open field w/o obstacles to hide behind any who. That's almost as complex as a gargoyle not being able to fly over stones or slimes. Gargoyles look like they're flying 6' in the air but are still blocked by slimes and stones that sit about 12" above the ground. What the hell is that about?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

If you somehow get revealed you should use one of the multiple ways to hide again. Lets see Shadow strike, smoke bombs, the skill hiding, invis potions, invis items. Not really sure what the problem is.

Why are you complaining about getting revealed here and there when you're technically in plain sight of everyone? I don't really get how you're hiding and stealthing around in an open field w/o obstacles to hide behind any who. That's almost as complex as a gargoyle not being able to fly over stones or slimes. Gargoyles look like they're flying 6' in the air but are still blocked by slimes and stones that sit about 12" above the ground. What the hell is that about?

I was totally on the Stealthers' side until this post...(yes seriously) since their argument was about logic, then well yea....how does one hide in dirt exactly?

 

[Viper09]

...

...

Logic? The only logic here is that it doesn't make sense how one should get the benefits of high level skill with 0 skill. Someone with 0 skill in tracking shouldn't even know how to track GM stealthers.

If we're going to this BS argument of hiding in dirt with this fantasy game then should we just go ahead and jump to the argument of magic not being real followed up by all the usual "realistic" arguments?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Logic? The only logic here is that it doesn't make sense how one should get the benefits of high level skill with 0 skill. Someone with 0 skill in tracking shouldn't even know how to track GM stealthers.

If we're going to this BS argument of hiding in dirt with this fantasy game then should we just go ahead and jump to the argument of magic not being real followed up by all the usual "realistic" arguments?

Well, ok then....Point out the obvious. Hmm must have been hotter today than I thought it was. You can scratch my previous post...I am generally on the side of "skill" anyway.