Should there be honor in a video game?

[ACB1961]

The other night I was in chat and there was a scripter talking to us. There was several scripters actually. He was explaining how stupid we non-scripters were. I asked him why he'd be doing that with his actual player number there beside him. So, he explains it was a trial account. Ok.

He had a powerful argument.

I never cheat in life or here. I always believed that a person should live their life with honor wherever they are. I think anything you achieve by cheating isn't an accomplishment. It's like 6 people ganking someone and talking about how great they are, and how bad the other person was and believing it. I never even used uoa. I've actually hit all the millions of keystrokes over the last 12 years personally, but I'm no longer sure I'm right.

Is honor a valuable aspect of game lives, or are we just fools to think it is? You can get rich cheating or not cheating so its not about money. There's plenty of money to go around.

I just don't know any more...

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Mmmm, I could agree with you that honor is a good thing, but it depends how far you take it. I mean "technically" "scripting" is only cheating when done afk, (while using the third party program is always considered cheating, but that is not exactly what I am trying to point out) so is it dis-honorable to do something with in the means of the rules even if it still brings a fair advantage? "cheating" as it were is considered anything that provides one person with a great advantage over other people, thus putting others at a great disadvantage, this can be done completely with in the rules tho....so is it or is it not cheating? And even then is it or is it not dishonorable?

I think your ideals are right, living life the way you do is a good thing, if you compromise it for any reason you mind as well compromise for all reasons. But then being dishonorable is not always a "bad" thing, in that if you are being dishonorable to be dishonorable (we do play an RPG after all) then it might not be a compromise to your beliefs as you are role playing a bad person..... So yea lots of things to consider when considering what you are asking, or trying to figure out for yourself.

 

[lucitus]

I see it a bit different. Scripter is a bad name for a player who uses a programm which he didnt develop. He is a botter and no scripter. Another thing is what he is doing? If he trains skills up and stands at home, he is not destorying the game expierence of the other players. If he is mining sitting on the PC and the bot clicks and gathers for him, he is not destroying the game. But if this is a full atomated machine which gathers afk 24 hours and more, he is destroying the economy of the game and is destroying other players game expierence.

Many of my friends and iam also a part of the history, have played UO with a bot and many players using and appraise it and i also appraise it. Not because of a automated machine 24/7, but because of the usefull development enviroment given here to write usefull tools, which make the life in uo much easier.

Now you should see not all scripters (botter) are worse players and not caring about the game! It is all a thing how you use it, with a car you can drive from a to b or you can kill people or destroying other cars. This must be all considered differently and should not be all botters are bad and then the loose of many accounts? The lack of resources, the raising prices, the lack of potions, the lack of holiday players, who want to play and not to skill his character!

 

[Uvtha]

Well clearly your convictions about honor arent that strong is this is what it takes to make you question them.

But honestly no, it doesn't matter. I think its silly but, cheat if you want to. I don't and won't because I don't see the point, it only takes away from my diversion level, which is why I play in the first place.

 

[MalagAste]

I don't know. In my opinion if you are willing to cheat at something so simple as a video game and have no remorse about it...

Are you willing to cheat at other things? Cheat on your spouse? Cheat on tests at school? Cheat on your taxes? Cheat and lie at work?

And what does that say about you? Can you live with that? Is that the way you want to be remembered? What about getting caught??? Is it worth the risk? To you account? Your marriage? Your education? Worth risking your job over?

You see some folk say .... Well.... It's only a game! It's not like it's important. But the way I look at it is... it's a game... yes.... do I like playing the game? Yes... would I be upset if I lost that account? HECK YES!... So.... do I want to risk it... NO...

You know I guess part of it is this too..... if you cheat... you are really cheating yourself....

It's one thing to cheat working skill and macro something.... yes working skill is boring.... yes all the clicking is monotonous. Yes... it leads to carpal tunnel.... but... if you don't spend time working your character you really miss getting to Know your character... their limits, strengths, and weakness's...

So I guess it's what you want and what you care to risk.... vs how quickly you want at your goal... and your own convictions. Personally... I don't think it's worth all that.

 

[Megilhir]

I play video games for reasons that are not supported by scripting/boting etc.

Nor do I bank sit for hours trying to sell gear or to have people oogle my accumulated gear.

Honor is defined differently by different cultures. Your question, as I understand it, is applying the term of honor against a perceived Indo-European Judeo-Christian dominated culture (more or less).

To not use the very techniques you deride in many Asian cultures is to be fooloish. Does that mean that one has to choose to be foolish and honorable or wise and dishonorable?

My point is that you have framed a complex inconsistently and applied an evocative term to describe an action you disagree with. Perhaps a more accurate question would be: are people using different cultural norms and standards applied to a shared platform honorable. But even that is subject to disagreement.

Back to the main point, is running an unsupervised program cheating. Yes, by the End User Agreements.

Should every account that does it be banned? Yes.

Will it occur...definately not.

I kept killing a scripter on the Feluccian Britian Guard Zone until he added a script to yell "Guards" if his unattended toon was damaged. I reported it. The powers-that-be did nothing and the toon can be seen regularly script-harvesting ore on Atlantic in Feluccia, southwest of the Britian stables along the mountain between 7:00 PM and 10:00 PM Central Standard Time. (Probably there at other times that I am not on and cannot verify).

Fun game huh?

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Its a game.
No different then starting monopoly with extra money.

Playing solitaire and using a card that got bypassed.

A game, A game.

Now stealing things like accounts and all that, thats illegal.

But cheating in game be it script or exploits. Sucks. But not about honor.


We all cheat in games. Re-roll the dice if you dont get what you want. Etc etc.

 

[UOKaiser]

I don't know. In my opinion if you are willing to cheat at something so simple as a video game and have no remorse about it...

Are you willing to cheat at other things? Cheat on your spouse? Cheat on tests at school? Cheat on your taxes? Cheat and lie at work?

And what does that say about you? Can you live with that? Is that the way you want to be remembered? What about getting caught??? Is it worth the risk? To you account? Your marriage? Your education? Worth risking your job over?

You see some folk say .... Well.... It's only a game! It's not like it's important. But the way I look at it is... it's a game... yes.... do I like playing the game? Yes... would I be upset if I lost that account? HECK YES!... So.... do I want to risk it... NO...

You know I guess part of it is this too..... if you cheat... you are really cheating yourself....

It's one thing to cheat working skill and macro something.... yes working skill is boring.... yes all the clicking is monotonous. Yes... it leads to carpal tunnel.... but... if you don't spend time working your character you really miss getting to Know your character... their limits, strengths, and weakness's...

So I guess it's what you want and what you care to risk.... vs how quickly you want at your goal... and your own convictions. Personally... I don't think it's worth all that.

You bring a interesting point. I've cheated on my girlfirends they cheated on me as well and many i never did. I think if I was married I would cheat on my wife if the opportunity came along and i was unhappy. I used to robed from stores,people,houses. I was member of gangs even a small leader once, I had sex with girls because they wanted to be part of it. I skipped class,Smoked the green,sold drugs.I sure don't pay for music or movies never will, Ive have a felony record for drugs, Hoped the turn style,skiped school,had many fights, so many other things.
And yet even after all this. I am highly respected and trusted in my IT field.I never hit a woman and never would no matter what,I never done any other type of drug and even the greens I haven't touched in many years,I am very helpful to family and friends,I enjoy messing with the stock market and keeping to myself,Hard worker,College graduate, highly educated.

Now I always believe just because a person who would rob somebody that doesn't mean they will kill or a person who would kill won't rob. We all break the law knowingly or unknowing from jaywalking to talking on a cell phone while driving to littering to driving to fast to anything. There are so many laws to keep up in society that people just don't care and will break them if it's convenient for them and yet they will attack anybody who breaks any part of UO ROC. He who is free of sin may cast the first stone or something like that.
Either way it's pretty interesting mind set of the gaming community.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

*shakes head*

You are all thinking it in the wrong terms.

You are playing a game which has rules.

Unattended macroing is not allowed by those rules.

Nor is the use of unapproved third party programs that interact with the game.

When you play Baseball, do you run right to third base from home? No, because the rules of the game require you to go from first to second.

Do you play Tennis without a net? You might, but you wouldn't call it Tennis, just a similar game.

Ganking, rez killing, etc....All of those are within the rules of the game.

Using 3rd party unapproved scripting programs isn't. Before we even get to questions about Honor or its lack, there's the simple question about what constitutes playing the game and what doesn't.

-Galen's player

 

[UOKaiser]

*shakes head*

You are all thinking it in the wrong terms.

You are playing a game which has rules.

Unattended macroing is not allowed by those rules.

Nor is the use of unapproved third party programs that interact with the game.

When you play Baseball, do you run right to third base from home? No, because the rules of the game require you to go from first to second.

Do you play Tennis without a net? You might, but you wouldn't call it Tennis, just a similar game.

Ganking, rez killing, etc....All of those are within the rules of the game.

Using 3rd party unapproved scripting programs isn't. Before we even get to questions about Honor or its lack, there's the simple question about what constitutes playing the game and what doesn't.

-Galen's player

We all know it has rules. Even if someone is playing basketball they would try to foul or increase the score or fix the game to break the rules. In this topic we are looking beyond the obvious rules because in reality everyone just picks the rules they want to follow and try to get away with it. So honor is more on topic. For example When I have to go i have to go so i'll look for a tree,behind a car or something so i wont make a accident. Of course this is against the law here but hell Im going to break it or walk around drench in my own urine. So we have to look at honor. Is it more honorable for me to smell and leak all day so i don't break the law?

 

[Fink]

@OP

"He was explaining how stupid we non-scripters were."

He was trying to make himself feel less lame.

If he were smart, he'd quietly get on with the business of being a sniveling little cheater gimp without a) alerting others to the fact or b) trying to defeat his own advantage by talking others into cheating too. Part of it is a misplaced bravado for owning up to something illicit, like it makes him harder or bigger somehow.

Don't be drawn into his fractured argument. It's clear he's the one with the ethical dilemma, don't allow it to become yours too.

 

[Gildar]

Game or not, you're interacting with real people.
You should always treat other people with respect.

 

[puni666]

Honor lol... Maybe respect but not honor. I'd say it's dishonorable sitting here typing or moving pixels with my mouse to A LOT of people that could use our help irl.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

Have you enjoyed playing? Whatever others do should be of no concern to you. What should matter to you is are you having fun? If the answer is no then why were you playing all this time? I just play in a manner that I enjoy and let others do whatever they chose to. If I came to a point that I wasn't enjoying it I would do something else. If someone else cheats so what? I don't need to cheat to have fun.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

*shakes head*

You are all thinking it in the wrong terms.

You are playing a game which has rules.

Unattended macroing is not allowed by those rules.

Nor is the use of unapproved third party programs that interact with the game.

When you play Baseball, do you run right to third base from home? No, because the rules of the game require you to go from first to second.

Do you play Tennis without a net? You might, but you wouldn't call it Tennis, just a similar game.

Ganking, rez killing, etc....All of those are within the rules of the game.

Using 3rd party unapproved scripting programs isn't. Before we even get to questions about Honor or its lack, there's the simple question about what constitutes playing the game and what doesn't.

-Galen's player

I would not cheat, personally...but I think the point Galen here has missed is that in Baseball, for example, there is an umpire that prevents you from breaking the rules.

In UO, we rarely see an 'umpire' anymore, and when we do...they usually don't care...they just throw out a prefab link and ignore us.

 

[the 4th man]

Whoever you talked to, that called non-scripters stupid, has a kids mentality, and probably is one.

The real sorry fact about todays society is, lack of appreciation. Those of us who choose not to be lazy, unappreciative, and actually work for something know what's what.

There's alot of strong points made by many here against using third party programs....I agree. One who cheats at something a trivial as a computer game, more than likely, will find ways to cheat in life. They're scum.

I've used UOAssist, but never afk. Have I held down a key with a toothpick to get up and grab a drink right quick? Yes, but I've been back in under 30 seconds. If something calls for me to be away for a period of time, I log off.

I'm old school, and I work for what I get, here and in real life. As far as that miner in fel. I'll keep my eyes open....why?....because I can.

later

 

[Heartseeker]

The other night I was in chat and there was a scripter talking to us. There was several scripters actually. He was explaining how stupid we non-scripters were. I asked him why he'd be doing that with his actual player number there beside him. So, he explains it was a trial account. Ok.

He had a powerful argument.

I never cheat in life or here. I always believed that a person should live their life with honor wherever they are. I think anything you achieve by cheating isn't an accomplishment. It's like 6 people ganking someone and talking about how great they are, and how bad the other person was and believing it. I never even used uoa. I've actually hit all the millions of keystrokes over the last 12 years personally, but I'm no longer sure I'm right.

Is honor a valuable aspect of game lives, or are we just fools to think it is? You can get rich cheating or not cheating so its not about money. There's plenty of money to go around.

I just don't know any more...

Do what you feel is right.

Don't let others sway you.

It is very different duping things, than say macroing skills.

But in the end it is how "you" feel about it.

There are many people who are holier than tho, ignore them.

It is a game after all, and far as paying your taxes...that made me laugh.

Half the people that the President was appointing didn't pay them, including Geitner.

 

[Jhym]

Honor would imply respect and shame.

Respect of others is required in a civilization, otherwise you get bombings, bad food, and people who would rather rat on each other instead of helping each other. You also get sheeple, but that's another issue.

Shame is required to differentiate what is acceptable versus unacceptable behaviour. It also implies there are larger and larger responses to continued bad behaviour.

Should a game have honor and respect and shame? I think it should. For all those talking about how playing a game effectively should have no consequence to you in real life: really? You don't care when you lose then? Or that you spent hours playing only to have your entire night spoiled because someone did something to waste your effort? Or that you work hard to try to gather materials for something you want, only to find someone else bending the rules and gathering everything before you can?

Whether you like it or not, experience in games affects you in life, whether it is online gaming, monopoly or playing hockey.

Would people play with you as a kid if you continually ignored the rules and did whatever you liked in a game? No, they shame you by never playing with you again. Some adults think they can ignore such shame, but they forget that the adult version of shame is more subtle than the kid version. Their friends just don't see them as often, or they change the subject in conversation or they move away or otherwise isolate people. Or they call the police because someone thinks being antisocial lets them do whatever they feel like, regardless of situation.


However -- there is also the issue that UO is a role-playing game at its heart. You technically can role play an evil, anti-social, cheating, ******* if you want -- as long as you stay within the TOS and the game rules. If the person is structurally cheating (ie external scripting, speedhacking) then yes, I'd say s/he has some honor issues in real life AND they should be dealt with by the GMs. If, however, the person is using the game rules and methods and just better at things then you are while being a jerk about it, I'd say let it go and just be true to yourself.

Not that it wouldn't be helpful to have more stringent rules in place to help stop people from doing bad things -- however I don't want us good folks to have to debug all the potential issues such rules would create. ("You are going too fast, speedhacker: no, I'm on a T3 connection".)

Good folks don't have to be last, but they also don't have to stoop to being jackasses to win. And they shouldn't let others' infractions make them cynical.

For the op, just do what you do, page on those that are OBVIOUS about working outside the rules and move on.

 

[Zosimus]

Well a persons honor can be defined many ways. It depends on the person and what they think/view honor is. My honor may differ from others. If any ever read the dragon lance series then you should know this..."My honor is my life."

We define who we are by our own individuality. Dont let others make you question you're own honor unless you question it yourself.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

We all know it has rules. Even if someone is playing basketball they would try to foul or increase the score or fix the game to break the rules. In this topic we are looking beyond the obvious rules because in reality everyone just picks the rules they want to follow and try to get away with it. So honor is more on topic. For example When I have to go i have to go so i'll look for a tree,behind a car or something so i wont make a accident. Of course this is against the law here but hell Im going to break it or walk around drench in my own urine. So we have to look at honor. Is it more honorable for me to smell and leak all day so i don't break the law?

You know what the problem is, I just realized....We're talking past each other.

Let me explain more fully.

I think what's going on is that you're all arguing that cheating on the game and other forms of dishonorable behavior are on kind of a long continuum.

So for example, someone might see:

• Ganking and rez killing on one side, then cheating, then moving up to dishonor in RL behavior. Or
• Scamming EA for an account on one side (stealing from EA, who really cares, it's EA), then scripting for skill gain, then stealing lunch money from your big brother who beats you up, then cheating in PvP, then ganking and so forth.

Endless combinations are possible.

And I see entirely separate continuums. (Continuua? Does "continuum" even have a plural form?)

Just a different orientation.

-Galen's player

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I concern myself mainly with how honourable I am.

 

[Whinemaker]

Nah, screw honour, we only need a few competent people working customer service (GM) for EA.
(Although that's never going to happen)

 

[UOKaiser]

You know what the problem is, I just realized....We're talking past each other.

Let me explain more fully.

I think what's going on is that you're all arguing that cheating on the game and other forms of dishonorable behavior are on kind of a long continuum.

So for example, someone might see:

• Ganking and rez killing on one side, then cheating, then moving up to dishonor in RL behavior. Or
• Scamming EA for an account on one side (stealing from EA, who really cares, it's EA), then scripting for skill gain, then stealing lunch money from your big brother who beats you up, then cheating in PvP, then ganking and so forth.

Endless combinations are possible.

And I see entirely separate continuums. (Continuua? Does "continuum" even have a plural form?)

Just a different orientation.

-Galen's player

I don't agree with some post saying that if someone does something bad somewhere means they do something bad everywhere. It's like that fake saying that weed is a gateway drug.That If you smoke you will move on to harder things. If that was true everyone who smokes cigarettes which nicotine is the most addictive substance next comes caffene that is know will eventually move up doing crack and selling crack through ultima.

Just like in UO if people might unattend script doesn't mean they going to dupe or those people scam or those speedhack or blow up a car with there ex girlfriend in it.

Though am sure non of us would care one bit if a hacker robed EA of millions of dollars. Ea sure aint giving me no money so I wouldn't care. But those people would care if someone curses them in game and they will go on a never ending crusade because of it.

But back to the topic at hand. People and i mean everybody don't care about rules if they get in the way of there enjoyment. They didn't make up the rules.
So is Honor even important. It's all really if you feel good about yourself or not. If I was in a war would I face my enemy or kill my enemy without him looking to make sure I survive and leave no possibiliy of chance. Or better yet I would just send someone else to kill him while i sit confortably in my chair. Definetely not honorable but I sure would do it that way and so does our government.

Many people will be honorable as long as there isn't anything to lose from it. Once they have a chance at losing something important honor will be trown out the window and steped on.

 

[Stupid Miner]

If you always believe in honor in life then you believe in honor in video games. This is a subsection of life.

Question is... do you really believe in honor in life then?
And do you know why you believe what you believe?
... and can you articulate your belief.

If something simple like this can shake your beliefs then it would imply your beliefs weren't firmly founded.

 

[Stupid Miner]

(Continuua? Does "continuum" even have a plural form?)

-Galen's player

[It'd be "continua." Words ending in 'um' become 'a' in the plural (at least for Latin derivatives.)]

 

[Tinsil]

At this point in the game, I don't think it matters. You're no longer seriously hurting other players by scripting. Anyways, it's a game.. It doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter to EA. They only care because they somehow think it affects how much $$ they make imo.

 

[LordDrago]

For those interested in questions of honor, I humbly submit the following link:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1983/40768/docs/taylor.html

Just a little light reading.

 

[AesSedai]

- Yes, there should be honor in a (video) game.

Yes, in order to be fair to everyone involved in a game (be they referees, coaches, players or even fairweather fans/observers), the rules should be followed & the rules should be enforced.

Of course some people do cheat in games; but do many people enjoy playing games with cheaters?

 

[AtlanteanAngel]

You bring a interesting point. I've cheated on my girlfirends they cheated on me as well and many i never did. I think if I was married I would cheat on my wife if the opportunity came along and i was unhappy. I used to robed from stores,people,houses. I was member of gangs even a small leader once, I had sex with girls because they wanted to be part of it. I skipped class,Smoked the green,sold drugs.I sure don't pay for music or movies never will, Ive have a felony record for drugs, Hoped the turn style,skiped school,had many fights, so many other things.
And yet even after all this. I am highly respected and trusted in my IT field.I never hit a woman and never would no matter what,I never done any other type of drug and even the greens I haven't touched in many years,I am very helpful to family and friends,I enjoy messing with the stock market and keeping to myself,Hard worker,College graduate, highly educated.

Now I always believe just because a person who would rob somebody that doesn't mean they will kill or a person who would kill won't rob. We all break the law knowingly or unknowing from jaywalking to talking on a cell phone while driving to littering to driving to fast to anything. There are so many laws to keep up in society that people just don't care and will break them if it's convenient for them and yet they will attack anybody who breaks any part of UO ROC. He who is free of sin may cast the first stone or something like that.
Either way it's pretty interesting mind set of the gaming community.

This reminds me of a post I've made many times on many different forums on the internet over the many years :

Legality, Morality, Ethicality, CosmoEthicality. These are all completely separate. Only the simple-minded (ie, naive) confuse them as one and the same.

Legality. The Law is the Law, but Do As Thou Wilt, Just Don't Get Caught. (Rule#1). Sure, laws are necessary for any system and country to function, and are by and large helpful (ie. "good"). But an evil/bad/unethical/"immoral" person who does great harm to others may never break a single law, while in contrast a good/ethical/'moral' person who contributes greatly to mankind may routinely break laws, and/or participate in illegal activities as part of what he does.

Morality. A false illlusion (usually based on religious beliefs). There is no 'right' and 'wrong', which is the result of an oversimplified and false 'white' or 'black' ideology. There are only Actions and their Consequences (consequentialism karmic philosophy). Morality results in judgement, prejudgement and holier-than-thou issues, and yet no being in the universe can truly judge another (we can only judge ourselves, that if we were in his/her/their shoes doing what we think he/she/they are doing, it would be ethical/cosmoethical/helpful, or unethical/anticosmoethical/unhelpful).

Ethicality. Do Unto Others As You Would Like Others To Do Unto You. A superior measure of human decency than the subjective and illusionary 'morality'. This is, barring cosmoethics (by definition the highest possible yardstick for any/all beings), by far the most helpful yardstick to measure the goodness of a man, and the evolution of his soul.

CosmoEthics. Understand that this is a spectrum, not to be reduced to simplistic binary polar opposites. That (direction or pathway) of Action which Results in the Greatest Benefit or Highest Good of All Beings involved (directly), and for All the Universe (indirectly). No one individual or authority may dictate or judge which path is most cosmoethical (but the higher, more evolved and more interconnected the being or group of beings or consciousnesses, the greater the capacity to recognize the bigger or biggest picture, concerning the entire cosmos, and hence the closer the beings' capacity to recognize the value of CosmoEthics, the possibilities of CosmoEthics, and the highest CosmoEthical path conceivable or recognizable (at that being's level).

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

[It'd be "continua." Words ending in 'um' become 'a' in the plural (at least for Latin derivatives.)]

Thank you.



-Galen's player

 

[popps]

You see some folk say .... Well.... It's only a game! It's not like it's important. But the way I look at it is... it's a game... yes.... do I like playing the game? Yes... would I be upset if I lost that account? HECK YES!... So.... do I want to risk it... NO...

The problem is, as I see it, that it is possible to use disposable, dummy accounts to script extensively.

So, I do not think that banning accounts left and right can actually stop scripting as long as most of it is done using disposable accounts.

 

[phantus]

Game or not, you're interacting with real people.
You should always treat other people with respect.

I generally follow this as well.

The breakdown on this point is whether or not you view this decision based on the "it's a game" philosophy. If you can break everything you do down to that then there is no point to honor.

If instead you treat the game as you would a social environment with real people behind the characters you interact with then yes.

It's a very polarizing viewpoint on both sides of the line.

 

[Connor_Graham]

How a person acts when there is no check against his/her actions says a lot about who and what that person really is.

 

[roninaxx]

I believe that its either black or white , no shades of gray. there is only right and wrong.
right = playing the game according to the rules, doing skills by hand , my fondest memories are of looking for things that challanged my skill level, not beating a golem to 120.
wrong = everything else.
if you'll cheat in a game then you'll always be looking for the easy way in every part of your life. But your choices in life or game are exactly that yours.

 

[UOKaiser]

This reminds me of a post I've made many times on many different forums on the internet over the many years :

Legality, Morality, Ethicality, CosmoEthicality. These are all completely separate. Only the simple-minded (ie, naive) confuse them as one and the same.

Legality. The Law is the Law, but Do As Thou Wilt, Just Don't Get Caught. (Rule#1). Sure, laws are necessary for any system and country to function, and are by and large helpful (ie. "good"). But an evil/bad/unethical/"immoral" person who does great harm to others may never break a single law, while in contrast a good/ethical/'moral' person who contributes greatly to mankind may routinely break laws, and/or participate in illegal activities as part of what he does.

Morality. A false illlusion (usually based on religious beliefs). There is no 'right' and 'wrong', which is the result of an oversimplified and false 'white' or 'black' ideology. There are only Actions and their Consequences (consequentialism karmic philosophy). Morality results in judgement, prejudgement and holier-than-thou issues, and yet no being in the universe can truly judge another (we can only judge ourselves, that if we were in his/her/their shoes doing what we think he/she/they are doing, it would be ethical/cosmoethical/helpful, or unethical/anticosmoethical/unhelpful).

Ethicality. Do Unto Others As You Would Like Others To Do Unto You. A superior measure of human decency than the subjective and illusionary 'morality'. This is, barring cosmoethics (by definition the highest possible yardstick for any/all beings), by far the most helpful yardstick to measure the goodness of a man, and the evolution of his soul.

CosmoEthics. Understand that this is a spectrum, not to be reduced to simplistic binary polar opposites. That (direction or pathway) of Action which Results in the Greatest Benefit or Highest Good of All Beings involved (directly), and for All the Universe (indirectly). No one individual or authority may dictate or judge which path is most cosmoethical (but the higher, more evolved and more interconnected the being or group of beings or consciousnesses, the greater the capacity to recognize the bigger or biggest picture, concerning the entire cosmos, and hence the closer the beings' capacity to recognize the value of CosmoEthics, the possibilities of CosmoEthics, and the highest CosmoEthical path conceivable or recognizable (at that being's level).

Very enlightening. I believe your right on.

 

[UOKaiser]

I believe that its either black or white , no shades of gray. there is only right and wrong.
right = playing the game according to the rules, doing skills by hand , my fondest memories are of looking for things that challanged my skill level, not beating a golem to 120.
wrong = everything else.
if you'll cheat in a game then you'll always be looking for the easy way in every part of your life. But your choices in life or game are exactly that yours.

How is it possible in this belief. Lets say Ea made a announcement tommorrow that it has became a government entity and put a new law up saying all those under 80 and over 10 will need to get fingure printed and taged with a tracker chip with remote video and audio surveilance in order to be monitored for any acts they deemed wrong which cannot be revealed because of company privacy and national security. This is a no opt out situation and is in conjuction with your government for your safety. All other laws that may have prevented this have being temporaly or foever recended. Any tampering is punishable with immediate death for you and your family. Any violations of rules we cannot share with you has sentences of 10 years to penalty of death. Ignorance of the law is no defense.Once again this is for your protection and enjoyment and to better serve our customers and citizens thank you.

Now if things are black and white and all laws are to be followed this would have to be followed. Now if you are in a grey situation this would of being fought even if you had to illegaly rebel against the government and EA. If you win you will be known as a hero and savior. if you lose you will be known as a criminal and terroist. There is no right on wrong in the world there is only our perception of right and wrong and our own belief when and where we walk these lines.
To incorporate to what you said. golem training is a perfectly good way to bring your skill up in reasonable amount of time when you don't want to go kill low level creatures for the 5billionth time and decide to give up and just get your already developed character to kill high end. It's only your perception that says it's wrong to do it.
If you wanted to get a boulder up a hill will you do it the traditional way by rolling it up the hill or will you do it the easy way by putting in a truck and drive it up there?

 

[Megilhir]

How is it possible in this belief. Lets say Ea made a announcement tommorrow that it has became a government entity and put a new law up saying all those under 80 and over 10 will need to get fingure printed and taged with a tracker chip with remote video and audio surveilance in order to be monitored for any acts they deemed wrong which cannot be revealed because of company privacy and national security. This is a no opt out situation and is in conjuction with your government for your safety. All other laws that may have prevented this have being temporaly or foever recended. Any tampering is punishable with immediate death for you and your family. Any violations of rules we cannot share with you has sentences of 10 years to penalty of death. Ignorance of the law is no defense.Once again this is for your protection and enjoyment and to better serve our customers and citizens thank you.

Now if things are black and white and all laws are to be followed this would have to be followed. Now if you are in a grey situation this would of being fought even if you had to illegaly rebel against the government and EA. If you win you will be known as a hero and savior. if you lose you will be known as a criminal and terroist. There is no right on wrong in the world there is only our perception of right and wrong and our own belief when and where we walk these lines.

If you wanted to get a boulder up a hill will you do it the traditional way by rolling it up the hill or will you do it the easy way by putting in a truck and drive it up there?

If the people of a country vote anything into law then it is the law. You may not agree with the law. You may not like the law. But it remains the law as decided by (hopefully but not exclusively) the majority of the population.

If you do not like or agree with the law exercise a great freedom...leave that country.

And that is precisely why Sharia Law will not work in America. Americans are and want to continue to be, Free!

"May the wings of liberty never lose a feather."

A far as the boulder scenario, that depends on the civilization relative to the boulder.

-Ancient Roman method: Level the mountain.
-Ancient Egyptian method: Reduce the boulder to peebles and carry them up.
-Ancient Chinese method: Tell the masses that the boulder is better where it is.
- Ancient Zen method: What boulder?

 

[Connor_Graham]

If you wanted to get a boulder up a hill will you do it the traditional way by rolling it up the hill or will you do it the easy way by putting in a truck and drive it up there?

Is dynamite an option?

 

[UOKaiser]

If the people of a country vote anything into law then it is the law. You may not agree with the law. You may not like the law. But it remains the law as decided by (hopefully but not exclusively) the majority of the population.

If you do not like or agree with the law exercise a great freedom...leave that country.

And that is precisely why Sharia Law will not work in America. Americans are and want to continue to be, Free!

"May the wings of liberty never lose a feather."

A far as the boulder scenario, that depends on the civilization relative to the boulder.

-Ancient Roman method: Level the mountain.
-Ancient Egyptian method: Reduce the boulder to peebles and carry them up.
-Ancient Chinese method: Tell the masses that the boulder is better where it is.
- Ancient Zen method: What boulder?

What if it's a universal law spanning from usa to africa to the unknown island in the ocean all monitor by satelite that penetrade to the core of the earth. You don't have a space ship to get of the planet. So then what? Will have to instigate a world wide revolution.

If you look at it now we people don't have a say. the people behind the curtain is what run this country. They can't leave it to people who watch tv all day and play games all day like us to do it. There is some sort of powerful people that hold things toghether the way they want it.Good or bad thats how it is.

 

[Trebr Drab]

If you wanted to get a boulder up a hill will you do it the traditional way by rolling it up the hill or will you do it the easy way by putting in a truck and drive it up there?

Is dynamite an option?

This is so simple. Go the easy way, and roll it away, downhill, and just go around the world. Sheesh.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

*shakes head*

You are all thinking it in the wrong terms.

You are playing a game which has rules.

Unattended macroing is not allowed by those rules.

Nor is the use of unapproved third party programs that interact with the game.

When you play Baseball, do you run right to third base from home? No, because the rules of the game require you to go from first to second.

Do you play Tennis without a net? You might, but you wouldn't call it Tennis, just a similar game.

Ganking, rez killing, etc....All of those are within the rules of the game.

Using 3rd party unapproved scripting programs isn't. Before we even get to questions about Honor or its lack, there's the simple question about what constitutes playing the game and what doesn't.

-Galen's player

Flawed logic IMO.

1) Anyone that has ever played baseball (or ANY other sport for that matter) would counter your sports analogy.
Ofc you would not run in opposite directions but you would certainly run out of the baselines to avoid a tag. It is certainly not within the rules to leave the baselines yet players do it regularly. Thats what umpires are for, to enforce what players will not enforce honorably upon themselves.
Who hasnt seen a fielder catch a ball after it skimmed the ground yet still hold up his mitt as if it was a clean/fair catch? Happens in damn near every game.

Just because sports have rules does not mean that everyone playing is honorable and doesnt cheat.
In sports as in Ultima the reality is about degrees of cheating.

2) IMO what constitutes playing the game is whatever you want to do with your character.
I have never used a supposed 'hack' program but in the past I most certainly overclocked my CPU to gain speed. Arrest me.
If I am playing some baseball next week and do decide to try and run to thirdbase from home do you think that 10,000 people will call me a dishonorable cheater and ban me from the game? Or post on a website forum that I am ruining their game?
No farking way. I will simply be called out and continue playing the game.

Peace

 

[dukarlo]

I think people are making this over complicated. If people want to kill other people, steal from them etc within the rules of the game thats fine. Its part of the game. Many people play the game simply to kill other players. Once people start cheating in order to do that it becomes wrong. Noone here would sit at a table playing cards or another game and cheat. Why? Because the other players would not stand for it and it is essentialy policed by all the players sitting at the table. When it comes to UO certain people think its ok because EA(the party that needs to police it) does nothing and those players think sitting behind anonominity on the internet makes a difference. The fact is legit players think those that cheat are idiots and feel those cheats should not be allowed to play UO. Seems to me less and less people are pvping nowadays and its more than likely because as more and people cheat, more and more legit players quit. As more and more legit players quit the percentage of cheaters amongst the overall player base increases greatly. Thats where we are now in UO. A game without rules, cheats everywhere, and alot of hostility between players because of it.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I think people are making this over complicated. If people want to kill other people, steal from them etc within the rules of the game thats fine. Its part of the game. Many people play the game simply to kill other players. Once people start cheating in order to do that it becomes wrong. Noone here would sit at a table playing cards or another game and cheat. Why? Because the other players would not stand for it and it is essentialy policed by all the players sitting at the table. When it comes to UO certain people think its ok because EA(the party that needs to police it) does nothing and those players think sitting behind anonominity on the internet makes a difference. The fact is legit players think those that cheat are idiots and feel those cheats should not be allowed to play UO. Seems to me less and less people are pvping nowadays and its more than likely because as more and people cheat, more and more legit players quit. As more and more legit players quit the percentage of cheaters amongst the overall player base increases greatly. Thats where we are now in UO. A game without rules, cheats everywhere, and alot of hostility between players because of it.

What if you were a really good cheater and the chance of getting caught was less than .01%? Would you cheat then? Your card game analogy does not really work, because people still cheat at card games, its just not wide spread, or not known about because the cheaters are good. But I agree there needs to be a bit more enforcement or remove the rules, if the rules are not there I think more people would do it, as it would be legit, some of us would not because it takes away from our over all game value, but most of the people would do it. If they enforce the rules less of us would do it and then maybe people would stop complaining, on the other hand people could still just keep cheating in crafting/gathering by using non-main accounts....so who knows.

 

[Connor_Graham]

What if you were a really good cheater and the chance of getting caught was less than .01%? Would you cheat then?

Nope. When you cheat you're only cheating yourself.

 

[Obsidian]

Should there be honor in a video game? Yes.

UO may be a game, but the way you act and treat others in it (who are also real people) is a reflection of your true personal character. Some people hide behind the avatar of their character (or their stratics username) and somehow believe there is a separation between their real-life-self and their uo-self; there is no difference. In my opinion, you should strive to act with integrity in all things... in real life and within the confines of UO. If you would not swear at person you meet at the grocery store, you shouldn't feel uninhibited to do so while sitting at the Luna bank. Same thing with entering a contract to sell property in real-life and selling a piece of uo real estate. Things people say in UO can hurt others in real life. I think we should always keep in mind, even when role playing, that there is a real person on the other end of the computer that has real emotions and convictions.

-OBSIDIAN-

 

[Cryltaur]

Should there be honor in a video game? I think the question is: Should there be honor in yourself? You will always, in game or real life, observe people who "cheat the system." You will not always be in a position to bring justice to that person. You are then faced with a choice: Do you follow the "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" philosophy and sink to their level, or do you rise above it? In the end, the only person who will know your actions is yourself. I have never "cheated the system." That and a dollar will buy me a cup of coffee, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[XLaCeDX]

Have you enjoyed playing? Whatever others do should be of no concern to you. What should matter to you is are you having fun? If the answer is no then why were you playing all this time? I just play in a manner that I enjoy and let others do whatever they chose to. If I came to a point that I wasn't enjoying it I would do something else. If someone else cheats so what? I don't need to cheat to have fun.

I actually love to play the game "Catch the Cheaters".

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

THis threAf ROKSOR M0n

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Is honor a valuable aspect of game lives, or are we just fools to think it is?

You only can answer that for yourself. I guess everybody has a different opinion on that, not only in a computer game, but also in real life. The question is, what can YOU live with?

In all situations of UO and life, there will be people who exploit loopholes and opportunities for their own advantage, without caring about laws, ethics or the "greater good". What defines you as a person is, what decision you make. Nobody can make that decision for you.

There never will be a clear boundary between right and wrong. The world isn't black and white.

 

[popps]

Nope. When you cheat you're only cheating yourself.

Now, that is something I do not understand.

I thought that those who cheated did it to gain an advantage over others, a shortcut to a goal.

Now, if the goal is reached, in less time, with less resources involved and effort, how can one cheat on oneself ?

It is the same old same Machiavelli's the goal justifies the means (which I disagree with, btw...)

Not sure I understand....