Should ICQ bids/buyouts be allowed or not?

[Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS]

Hello All,

Here is a question for all and if everyone could maybe elaborate their answer why they are for or against would be cool.


Ok, so today while watching the traders forums I came across various threads where buyouts where met privately via ICQ, well an idea came to mine, Couldn't this be used to troll and raise the prices without there really being another interested party.
I understand everyone has the right to sell their items how they want and using any methods they chose but dont you think its also open to exploitation on prices as no one can see the offer made on an item?

Heres some food for thought, have a good day all!!

 

[DJAd]

Couldn't this be used to troll and raise the prices without there really being another interested party.

It could be sure. If I'm bidding on an item I will tend to have a top price I'm willing to pay. Say its 100m on an item then suddenly there is a private ICQ bid or a new Stratics user who only joined in the last few days suddenly bumping it to 200m I will probably just say meh, and not bid on it if the prices suddenly goes up.

I've had items myself that have sat on auction with zero interest. A few days later I get an ICQ offering double the reserve so I will take it.

I have also had items where they have been on here with a cheap reserve (in this case 75m) no bids for about a week. I stuck it on vendor search for 150m and it sold in 2 days!

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

Hello All,

Here is a question for all and if everyone could maybe elaborate their answer why they are for or against would be cool.


Ok, so today while watching the traders forums I came across various threads where buyouts where met privately via ICQ, well an idea came to mine, Couldn't this be used to troll and raise the prices without there really being another interested party.
I understand everyone has the right to sell their items how they want and using any methods they chose but dont you think its also open to exploitation on prices as no one can see the offer made on an item?

Heres some food for thought, have a good day all!!

While I am NOT saying that is happening, I have seen one seller in particular, after puting an item up for a small reserve, and then not being happy with the response of the bidders, sell said item via"ICQ BID" *cough, cough* without letting anyone know the "bidder" or the selling price!

 

[Archnight]

Personally i'd rather stratics/icq bids (buyouts) than auction safes, to me it feels like it's easier for the seller to bump up his price using safes with a friend or a secondary account and I never bid on those. Sure you might get the occasional stratics visitor that bumps a bid or an anonymous ICQ bidder but it's your choice if you think it's legit and want to continue, less pressure to re-bid and feels more legitimate than auction safes IMO

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

Personally i'd rather stratics/icq bids (buyouts) than auction safes, to me it feels like it's easier for the seller to bump up his price using safes with a friend or a secondary account and I never bid on those. Sure you might get the occasional stratics visitor that bumps a bid or an anonymous ICQ bidder but it's your choice if you think it's legit and want to continue, less pressure to re-bid and feels more legitimate than auction safes IMO

Or you get a seller who, when he doesn't get "what he wants" for an item, simply says, "sold via ICQ" and keeps his/her item. Which is almost as bad as a "price check" and a certain couple of peoples joy in "price checking" an insane $$$ figure, but when pressed they have no interest in the item! ROFL

 

[Merlin]

We have discussed this internally as well... so don't think your concern falls on deaf ears. However... try putting yourself in the shoes of a moderator/staff for a second here... what can we really do about it?

I'm a free-market kind of guy and I think people who are selling something should reserve the right to sell it to someone else in whatever manner they please. It would become too burdensome for Stratics mods to then have to watch over and referee every auction and investigate ICQ bidding, etc. Frankly, that simply isn't our job. I feel like the trading community does a pretty good job at regulating themselves. You guys call out the 'bad actors' when someone is making false bids, not paying for items won, or acting in a manner that is unfaithful to the Ultima trading system. The trade forums needs those messages about bad actors to come from within the trading community itself - not from 'authority figures' on Stratics. And in most cases, I think the community does a pretty good job at recognizing those folks and calling them out accordingly.

Remember, the mods/admins are all volunteers here. We do this out of our free time. It would be impossible to regulate every sale on our forums. With the volume of activity on the trade forums, we leave that up to you, the Stratics posters, to use your own judgment when buying and selling on the forums. And if we started getting involved in one set of auctions/trades, people would cry foul or accuse us playing favorites if we didn't do it for another auction. It would be a very difficult balancing act, and I think just doesn't fall into the role of what the Stratics staff is supposed to be doing here. You're all adults and need to be able to use your judgment and make decisions on who you're dealing with and what you're paying for - just like you have to in real life.

Let's also not forget... sometimes people will bid via ICQ or Stratics PMs because they don't want their identity revealed if they're bidding on certain items. Some degree of privacy also needs to be allowed here.

By all means - those are MY OWN opinions only. I'm well aware there is a wide variety of opinions on this issue.

 

[Smoot]

You guys call out the 'bad actors' when someone is making false bids, not paying for items won, or acting in a manner that is unfaithful to the Ultima trading system. .

but this is against stratics TOS. its the same thing as outing someone for being a scammer. if your allowing accusations of fake bids / scam bidding its hypocritical to hand out points / bans for outing other scammers.

stratics is getting really, really bad. its ghetto. most respected sellers are leaving favoring private sites or means of sale. what you have left, well, what you have left.

the most respected rares forum members posts have either diminished by 75 percent or more, or left entirely.

90 percent of "price checks" on the trade forums arent price checks at all. its low-balling bids hoping an un experienced seller will take a dirt low price.

i almost dont want to pricecheck an item, for fear of repercussions of the feeding frenzy wanting to "steal" an item for next to nothing. (when i pricecheck, i pricecheck retail/max value. and of course that price is highly dependent on how fast and how much effort the seller wants to put into selling something. items of this nature (rare, novelty, antique) almost never sell for "retail value" in RL situations or in game for a novice seller)

 

[Merlin]

but this is against stratics TOS. its the same thing as outing someone for being a scammer. if your allowing accusations of fake bids / scam bidding its hypocritical to hand out points / bans for outing other scammers.

I knew I could rely on you to have a negative attitude and try to find any loophole you could to exploit and take something out of context.

And no - that's not what I'm saying. I won't name names, but for example, we have had a few bidders who would come into an auction - bid for an expensive item... and then never show up to pay. They would do it a few different times... but then the community would wake up to this. We would see a post like "Hey - this person never paid me from auctions X, Y and Z - if you're accepting bids from this person, I won't be participating in your auction". That's the way to handle a situation like that. Like an adult that doesn't need to stoop down to the level of name calling and creating a bunch of unnecessary drama. That's the way the trading community is expected to self-regulate itself. But if outing one of these 'bad actors' like that turns into outright unproven accusations, insults and other non-sense... there is very little we could do and then we have to use the RoC to deal with people who made personal attacks, etc.

You can try to simplify it all you want, but this is an example of why being a moderator isn't always an easy job and why every situation isn't just black and white.

stratics is getting really, really bad. its ghetto. most respected sellers are leaving favoring other sites or means of sale. what you have left, well, what you have left.

No, it's really not. "Most respected sellers" are all still here. Our trading community is still very strong.

 

[Smoot]

@Merlin but accusing that person of non-payment is the same as accusing someone as any other scam out of game.

the rationality ive gotten from stratics staff for not allowing scammers to be outed is that there is no way to prove it via the information on stratics.

there is also no proof on stratics if someone paid or not, because thats in game. not on stratics. just like any other scammer is all in game / icq.

its exactly the same thing.

Stratics could easily alleviate this problem by just allowing the discussion of all scammers, not just trade forum / bid scammers.

 

[Smoot]

No, it's really not. "Most respected sellers" are all still here. Our trading community is still very strong.

i take it you were not active on the rares forum a year ago. if you were youd notice the difference.

i also dont think your talking to same loop of people i do to hear where they sell their items. i guess believe what you want.

i believe what i see and hear.

 

[Giggles]

Moved thread to traders hall. This really isn't a uhall discussion.

 

[Smoot]

all i know is that ive seen so many scammers on stratics who are well known to experienced UOers, but who continue to operate, gain reputation via stratics to make for easier scams, but we arent allowed to out them.

sometimes, they eventually slip up and "out" themselves. but this is most often after years go by. and billions upon billions stolen from other players.

but on the trade forums your allowed to accuse someone of non-payment even tho there is just as little proof of this as the scammers we arent allowed to out.

its a double standard.

 

[Merlin]

@Smoot
We revised our trade rules not all that long ago and opened it up to the community for public comment. It's not like we don't hear y'all... but this is something that should have been addressed more directly at that time. I would suggest you bring it up in a well-thought out proposal (for how to allow discussion of scammers in a tactful manner) and it's something we would read and give consideration to. We are always open to revisions.

But the overall discussion of "scammers" and how to deal with them is away from original topic, so feel free to create another thread about it if you would like to discuss further.

 

[Smoot]

To @Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

theres really no way to tell if a bid / buyout is legit even if its posted. someone can just have a friend post a bid, or buyout.

like most dealings in UO, buying / selling on stratics is based on trust. not proof. this isnt Ebay. theres no concrete links to anyone.

its all based on trust and my only advice is if you dont trust someone dont bid / buy / sell to that account.

i know i myself am pretty up-front with how a sales conducted and follow the posted guidlines of the sale. if a say "no buyout" there wont be a buyout. If i want the freedom to accept any offer at any time, it wont be an auction it will just be "offers"

i tend to respect sellers who freely post that they have more open ended practices than a strict auction. Such as "i reserve the right to not sell an item if it the bids dont meet my expections"

if its a strict no-reserve auction, if i want an item ill make sure to be the highest bidder.
but if it includes the previous quote, ill know to bid what the seller might be expecting if i really want the item. not just have the highest bid.

this applies to all different types of auctions / sales, yes it can be frustating dealing with all types of sellers, from the very casual with 0 posted guidelines, who will accept pms, who will sell an item thats just posted as pricecheck. theres nothing wrong with that, but yes i agree that clearly stating rules of a sale, and then following those rules is alot easier to deal with.

 

[Best Friend]

Very simple ! To many people got stuff to say so way better just to close deals through ICQ in some cases. When someone drops a bunch of gold on something and they don't want everyone to know they got bank for 1. Also people like me run underground temps no one is running so I don't want to give away and tech lol extra

 

[Blue Fly]

I think doing a buy out for the posted price is fine over ICQ. Bidding on the other hand should happen within the thread IMO. Who wants to bid against ghosts!?

 

[genchattroll101]

Moot point it doesn't break any rules as I went over this with Norrington before when a user had someone ghost bid, regardless it's all preference. I couldn't care less if someone bid on ICQ, it's a strategy. However I would like for a screenshot or name/confirmation be given if asked to make sure it isn't a ghost bid so the auction isn't just yourself bidding against yourself because some kid isn't happy with the price he put.

 

[Smoot]

However I would like for a screenshot or name/confirmation be given if asked to make sure it isn't a ghost bid so the auction isn't just yourself bidding against yourself because some kid isn't happy with the price he put.

but posting an icq messege / name / screenshot is against the rules.

 

[Blue Fly]

Moot point it doesn't break any rules as I went over this with Norrington before when a user had someone ghost bid, regardless it's all preference. I couldn't care less if someone bid on ICQ, it's a strategy. However I would like for a screenshot or name/confirmation be given if asked to make sure it isn't a ghost bid so the auction isn't just yourself bidding against yourself because some kid isn't happy with the price he put.

Ehhh, Its not about breaking Stratics rules per say. Stratics is not here to govern our ethics.
Its about running a transparent auction where there is no question about the legitimacy of a bid. If its just a post taking offers, that would be different for sure.

 

[Smoot]

Ehhh, Its not about breaking Stratics rules per say.

it sure is if you value your stratics account.

a particular user even has signature with a "disclaimer" specifically in an effort to circumvent that rule about not posting icqs.

 

[genchattroll101]

it sure is if you value your stratics account.

Then don't complain about ICQ bidding because it isn't against the rules. It's a tactic to get an item quicker/cheaper and it's more convenient.

 

[mint]

I have had an auction in the past that had icq bids allowed, and in-game bids. It was too difficult to manage, and in the end lead to disappointment for a few bidders.
The problem with a long string of bids though..is differences in time/internet/availability, not to mention that people can edit/delete posts. Statics in my opinion is best designed inherently for Buyouts and Reserve style auction, not the typical ebay style penny bidding which takes place a lot lately. At least, in my experience.

But, as far as this specific topic goes...I'd say yes to allowing icq buyout, and if you are doing icq bids make sure you post every bid for that person and notate it's an icq bid. At least that's what I'm doing from here on out.

 

[Smoot]

Then don't complain about ICQ bidding because it isn't against the rules. It's a tactic to get an item quicker/cheaper and it's more convenient.

ive never once complained about it. in fact the majority of my sales just use icq (no bidding, just negotiate a sale price). i have avoided auctions where i feel like theres no point bidding tho. thats personal choice. far from complaining about it. if the item was good enough and i wanted it enough id icq them. most the time its not worth the hassel.

 

[Blue Fly]

it sure is if you value your stratics account.

a particular user even has signature with a "disclaimer" specifically in an effort to circumvent that rule about not posting icqs.

my reply was for gen chat not you about posting ICQ stuff

 

[Lord Frodo]

Almost all private bids no matter which way they do it (PM, E-Mail,ICQ, etc) is for REAL MONEY and nothing more. If you are going to use Stratics as your selling platform than all bids should be public as it is against the rules to sell items for RL cash here.

 

[Merlin]

To confirm - posting personal messages or ICQ posts is against the RoC here.

By all means, I understand why this would be useful to confirm that 'ghost bidding' isn't happening... but let's think even further into what could go wrong... what if someone created a fake second ICQ account and then that person just sent their main account a "bid" for so that they would have cover to post it up a screen shot of it? How would we know if that ICQ account is real or what not? And who's job would it be to investigate? Again - my point here is to say that even if we had a system that did allow for posting of personal messages... there would still be conspiracy theories and accusations behind them. There is just no sure way to confirm every bid as legitimate.

You have to trust who you are dealing with. It's easier said than done, but it's just apart of the UO world. If you're buying something for a significant amount of gold... get a broker involved. We all know who some of the big names are. I'm sure there will always be members of our community would be more than willing to help out.

 

[genchattroll101]

Almost all private bids no matter which way they do it (PM, E-Mail,ICQ, etc) is for REAL MONEY and nothing more. If you are going to use Stratics as your selling platform than all bids should be public as it is against the rules to sell items for RL cash here.

No all bids don't have to be public and shouldn't. It's on the seller and the bidders. Stop acting like it's 2007 and selling stuff for RL cash will get you killed, everyone sells the gold anyway.

 

[Lord Frodo]

No all bids don't have to be public and shouldn't. It's on the seller and the bidders. Stop acting like it's 2007 and selling stuff for RL cash will get you killed, everyone sells the gold anyway.

LMAO Guess the truth hit a sore spot with you.

 

[Smoot]

No all bids don't have to be public and shouldn't. It's on the seller and the bidders. Stop acting like it's 2007 and selling stuff for RL cash will get you killed, everyone sells the gold anyway.

uhhh... not sure what you mean. in 2007 selling stuff for cash on stratics was perfectly fine and accepted. heres just a few threads but tons of stuff was sold for cash during that time. they changed that mid 2008 i think. maybe 2009. in any event items were allowed for cash sale here on stratics longer than they havent been.

Selling Genuine UO Account *SOLD*

Auctioning off my rares, rubble and gold, Great Lakes - Ends March 30th

Selling guildstone for Zog Cabal

 

[genchattroll101]

LMAO Guess the truth hit a sore spot with you.

Are you one of those role-playing trammies who doesn't pvp and still thinks the game revolves around him? Selling for RL cash is a real thing and one of the only things keeping this game afloat.

 

[BBear]

I can tell you this... I was in a bidding war last week on two items in an auction, I won both items based on the ten minute timer but ICQ bids were posted after the ten minutes which caused me to get upset and exit the auction. I believe it cost the seller a considerable amount of gold because I was far away from my ceiling on one of the pieces. I will never again get into a bidding war with the other guy bidding through ICQ. With that said.. I believe all bids should posted on Stratics and not accepted through ICQ.

 

[Merlin]

LMAO Guess the truth hit a sore spot with you.

Are you one of those role-playing trammies who doesn't pvp and still thinks the game revolves around him? Selling for RL cash is a real thing and one of the only things keeping this game afloat.

This is a relevant topic. Please take your personal insults to PM.

 

[Chump Thumper]

I for one dislike Icq bids

 

[Longtooths]

Not all ICQ bids are for cash, or cheaper bids. I have occasionally wanted an item and want to forgot the auction process. I will contact the seller and offer a considerable some to have it removed from the auction. There are other times that I don't necessarily want my name associated, as some people like to drive the price up on specific items.

 

[Rafman]

This is a pretty horrible idea.
When I post things for sale I have no interest in conducting an actual auction with start and end times. I list what I have, i give ways to contact me (icq, posting a reply, pm) and when I get an offer I like, I take it.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Best Friend]

Am I the only one who only trades in gold? I farm all the gold, I spend, killing greater dragons takes a wile but never put any real money in ever! Maybe u all should start farming! Lol who buys gold?

I agree buyouts on ICQ seems cool and bids out of respect for other bidders should be public.

But then u black ball those who are ban from stratics. Clearly there is no perfect business plan n nothing will come of this. All business have gray areas when dealing with the public. There's prob 10000 members on this site that say nothing unless they are buying. Maybe u guys should give up the picket signs! And get back to trading this really played out and there has to be better things to do with your time. Go for the buyout option next time! Go for higher bids. I always always hear people whining about losing a bid by there a technical fine line of the rules of engagement however when the prior bids were transpired it was all good.

Lastly you should have just put in another bid.

Less of the trying to low ball the sellers! And more of bidding on something u really need. Paying more then it's worth in some cases.

Sorry for others that don't have much gold but that's the cool thing about this game pitch in and work some to make gold. I buy and sell super high end. Other craft extra. Pvp smart or manage your gold smart extra bids on stratics. If u can't this is not the game for u. This is all one big puzzle and test of mind hand coordination for pvp. If u are about decorating your house you would not be on here but the gold trade bidding strategy then catch up or cry someone else a river.

Sorry but I had to make this kinda funny with slapstick remarks no pun intended

 

[Bombastic Fail]

There is a ton of text here that I haven't read yet, but I feel like the way I do it (and several others) is the "right" way. Post your reserve/buyout and ending time and date. Post YOUR auction rules (10 minute rule, no reserve, can keep item if they wish, no anonymous bids.. Etc). And just go at it. If you don't like the bids or rules, don't bid in it. Fairly simple tbh.

You could require people to put their own rules, or have cookie cutter rules names and use that.

Like call it 10 min no icq auction. Or a n anything goes no reserve... Etc.

At least that way people are better informed of what's going in. Most people doing auctions are vets for the most part, but some new guys and bidders are not. You kind of need to decide if you want to install a -no law- set of auctions, loose auctions, or something more policed. You can't have it every way.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Scribbles]

I am a firm believer that the auction poster has the right to determine how his auction is ran. The auction bidder also has the right to not bid.

Personally i do not bid in auctions ran by people i assume are shady to begin with. I do not bid in auctions where non-public bids are allowed (ie icq bids). I do not bid at auction safes in game because of this.

However that is just me personally, i still believe it is the right of auction poster to run his auction whichever way he sees fit.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I am a firm believer that the auction poster has the right to determine how his auction is ran. The auction bidder also has the right to not bid.

Personally i do not bid in auctions ran by people i assume are shady to begin with. I do not bid in auctions where non-public bids are allowed (ie icq bids). I do not bid at auction safes in game because of this.

However that is just me personally, i still believe it is the right of auction poster to run his auction whichever way he sees fit.

I agree with you. I personally don't like to bid in auction where ICQ bids are accepted. I have actually seen a person have a bid with a reserve AND a buyout, only to sell it to an "ICQ" bid that was NOT at buyout. Needless to say that person pretty much can't even pay someone to bid in his/her auctions any more.

 

[Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS]

We have discussed this internally as well... so don't think your concern falls on deaf ears. However... try putting yourself in the shoes of a moderator/staff for a second here... what can we really do about it?

I'm a free-market kind of guy and I think people who are selling something should reserve the right to sell it to someone else in whatever manner they please. It would become too burdensome for Stratics mods to then have to watch over and referee every auction and investigate ICQ bidding, etc. Frankly, that simply isn't our job. I feel like the trading community does a pretty good job at regulating themselves. You guys call out the 'bad actors' when someone is making false bids, not paying for items won, or acting in a manner that is unfaithful to the Ultima trading system. The trade forums needs those messages about bad actors to come from within the trading community itself - not from 'authority figures' on Stratics. And in most cases, I think the community does a pretty good job at recognizing those folks and calling them out accordingly.

Remember, the mods/admins are all volunteers here. We do this out of our free time. It would be impossible to regulate every sale on our forums. With the volume of activity on the trade forums, we leave that up to you, the Stratics posters, to use your own judgment when buying and selling on the forums. And if we started getting involved in one set of auctions/trades, people would cry foul or accuse us playing favorites if we didn't do it for another auction. It would be a very difficult balancing act, and I think just doesn't fall into the role of what the Stratics staff is supposed to be doing here. You're all adults and need to be able to use your judgment and make decisions on who you're dealing with and what you're paying for - just like you have to in real life.

Let's also not forget... sometimes people will bid via ICQ or Stratics PMs because they don't want their identity revealed if they're bidding on certain items. Some degree of privacy also needs to be allowed here.

By all means - those are MY OWN opinions only. I'm well aware there is a wide variety of opinions on this issue.

I was in no intention suggesting or asking Stratics mods to check, its purely a discussion question I wanted to ask to see what the community thinks about the trading right now. You and the rest of the mods doing a great job, please keep doing it. Thanks for your ellaborate answer too.

Moved thread to traders hall. This really isn't a uhall discussion.

It was meant to but we have passionate UO players.



Thanks all for sharing your views

 

[THP]

Fresh made accounts that are a few days old or maybe a week or two olde are very iffy !! kinda give the game away too...massive over bidding etc etc etc

 

[mint]

I am a firm believer that the auction poster has the right to determine how his auction is ran. The auction bidder also has the right to not bid.

Personally i do not bid in auctions ran by people i assume are shady to begin with. I do not bid in auctions where non-public bids are allowed (ie icq bids). I do not bid at auction safes in game because of this.

However that is just me personally, i still believe it is the right of auction poster to run his auction whichever way he sees fit.

Agreed.

 

[Lord Nabin]

Having run an auction or two in the past...

I feel each auctioneer should be free to run their auction as they see fit.

Every bidder should be able to freely decide on who's auctions ,based on the auction rules and auctioneer's reputation, they want to bid on.

My personal preference when running auctions is to run them with no reserve, no buy out, no bids outside the thread, and a clear cut ten minute rule.

Those settings have always seemed to draw a very good crowd and kept the crowd happy. Rarely did I run into an issue.

Sure some people got a great deal on an item form time to time while other items whet far higher then I would have expected.

That pretty much shows you the actual valid market.

Over time an auctioneer with a consistent method develops a very good reputation in the community while ones with constant drama in their auctions do not.

 

[Best Friend]

Ok closing statement. Run auctions where watch item must stay with a top bid for 24 hours not 10 mins. And if ICQ buy outs only. And there will not be an issue. Only time I use ICQ is when I can't stay up to midnight to bid on an item.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

Having run an auction or two in the past...



"That pretty much shows you the actual valid market."

You hit the nail on the head in my opinion!

If an item is worth "X' amount of gold, then someone will bit it.

 

[Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS]

You hit the nail on the head in my opinion!

If an item is worth "X' amount of gold, then someone will bit it.

I agree with you to a sense but there is also lots of lowball offers that people make, thinking they going to get someone off guard and get an item for pennies

 

[Zandor]

Sometimes icq bids/buy outs are from friends, or people you have done business with before, or even just flat out someone you like better and sometimes in my case I will sell for lower just to know it's going to be in good hands. (This is referring to selling threads not auctions. With that said tho I have never pulled an item from auction even though I had buy out offers or yanked it after it had bids and sold it to someone I liked better. I think if your original post doesn't list a buy out then that option should be off the table. That's just MY opinion and how I deal with auctions.

Also it's important to remember it's only a game. If someone is jacking up the price on an item then just shy away from it. There are probably 20 more just like it if you hunt long enough. And if it's something unique or close to its most likely already in a reputable persons hands.