Selling and buying UO items

[Lord Chaos]

Since there's a lot of misinformation here and a misquote by Black Sun in the other thread, then I'll quote the whole thing.

First place something is mentioned:

9. Termination.
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY. THIS SECTION EXPLAINS WHAT HAPPENS IF YOUR ACCOUNT IS TERMINATED.

Either you or Electronic Arts may terminate your Account at any time without further obligation to the other. Further, Electronic Arts reserves the rights to terminate the Service at any time without further obligation to you. IF THE SERVICE OR YOUR ACCOUNT IS TERMINATED OR CANCELED AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON, YOU AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING: (1) YOU WILL NOT BE ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND OR PRORATION OF ANY FEES OR UNUSED ACCESS TIME; (2) YOU WILL NOT HAVE ACCESS TO ANY CHARACTERS DEVELOPED OR ITEMS ACCUMULATED AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRANSFER, SELL OR ASSIGN ANY CHARACTERS OR ITEMS TO ANYONE ELSE; (3) YOU MAY NOT ACCESS THE SERVICE IN ANY MANNER OR FOR ANY REASON, INCLUDING VIA ANY OTHER ACCOUNT. IN THE EVENT THAT AN ACCOUNT IS TERMINATED, Electronic Arts MAY TERMINATE ANY AND ALL OTHER ACCOUNTS THAT SHARE THE MEMBER NAME, PHONE NUMBER, EMAIL ADDRESS, INTERNET PROTOCOL ADDRESS OR CREDIT CARD NUMBER WITH THE TERMINATED ACCOUNT.

Yes, its about that you are not allowed to sell items, characters or anything else from a terminated or cancelled account. Its *not* about general item selling.

The other place is:

11. General Provisions.
You may not use, copy, modify, sublicense, rent, sell, assign or transfer the rights or obligations granted to you in this Agreement, except as expressly provided in this Agreement

This is about your rights and obligations, which you cannot sell to anyone else. Again nothing to do with in game items on live accounts.

To repeat and dispel misinformation. Its currently not against the UO rules to buy or sell items for RL money, it never has been. Whether this will change in the future is up to the team at Mythic.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I made this thread as to not derail the other thread with discussions on this and to put it in plain view for people.

 

[Petra Fyde]

What people do elsewhere is their concern. On Stratics our RoC rule applies:

P. Player to player transactions selling in game virtual items for real life currency are prohibited from being promoted or advertised on our network.

Links are governed by this item under the 'prohibited' list of the fansite agreement:

Secondary market ads and services. This includes advertisements or services for gold farming, item sales, power leveling, and other related services.

 

[Lord Chaos]

That is fine and all. Stratics is welcome to have that rule. This does not make it Mythics rules however, and thats what the thread is about. To dispel misinformation about the subject.

 

[Basara]

That is fine and all. Stratics is welcome to have that rule. This does not make it Mythics rules however, and thats what the thread is about. To dispel misinformation about the subject.

LC, try reading Petra's comment again.

The Second quote was something in the agreement that EA requires for a site to be an official fansite.

Perhaps that wasn't clear to you.

 

[popps]

I am confused.....

Is it against or not against to buy or sell ?

I am not sure I understand correctly which is which.......

 

[grig_since98]

The developers have not taken a stance against it. Stratics has a rule about it, which I'm not sure I understand the reason for, but its their forums, their rules.

 

[Lord Chaos]

LC, try reading Petra's comment again.

The Second quote was something in the agreement that EA requires for a site to be an official fansite.

Perhaps that wasn't clear to you.

Erhm, read what I wrote? Neither makes it Mythics rules for players. Its not against the rules to sell items. The only thing there is, is that its against the *fansite* agreement for fansite to advertise any form of selling service. This again doesn't make it against Mythics rules for players. Nor is it against the fansite rules for site to allow for said sales to occur between players.

I am dispelling the misinformation that item selling and buying is against the rules of the game, because it isn't and never has been. Maybe one day Mythic will change that stance, but that isn't now. This has nothing to do with fansites as such.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Is it against or not against to buy or sell ?

I am not sure I understand correctly which is which.......

- It is *not* against the rules to buy or sell UO Items/gold for money.
- It *is* against the fansite agreement for fansites to advertise goldseller sites.

 

[Black Sun]

http://vboards.stratics.com/1906042-post22.html

 

[Basara]

The only thing there is, is that its against the *fansite* agreement for fansite to advertise any form of selling service..... Nor is it against the fansite rules for site to allow for said sales to occur between players.

Are you naturally that dense, or are you being deliberately misleading?

Having trades for RL items on a fansite, even between two members, IS advertising a selling service, BY DEFINITION.

Someone being an individual, making a one-time sale advertisement through a forum post, instead of an organized group selling stuff regularly through an ad, makes NO DIFFERENCE. BOTH are offering a service that is against the fansite agreement.

If you extended your illogic to prescription drugs, it would be like you insisting that, yes, resale of prescription narcotics by a gang of drug dealers is illegal, but it would be perfectly legal for a single person to resell their oxycontin to the highest bidder. (when both are illegal - only the number of charges would differ in the courtroom)

 

[AdamD]

- It is *not* against the rules to buy or sell UO Items/gold for money.
- It *is* against the fansite agreement for fansites to advertise goldseller sites.

Correct, that's what I had confirmed when I queried the fansite agreement rules way back when Chrissay was community rep.

From 8 or so years of communication with EA/Mythic, they aren't officially against people selling/buying UO items for cash, it's something that's stuck with UO since it's birth I believe.

They just don't endorse or prohibit such transactions.

It's true "A" producer once said he didn't like it, but they weren't planning on adding a rule to prohibit it.

The changes made at Ebay to prohibit virtual item sales was done across all games, not because EA/Mythic asked them to stop allowing UO item sales.

I believe there was one exception, but I forget the games name, but one of the higher up directors at Ebay apparently partly owned this game.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Having trades for RL items on a fansite, even between two members, IS advertising

Uhm, how about no?

Allowing something isn't advertising for it. Now if a fansite put up big banners advertising "hey, come look at this sale", then yeah, its advertisement.

Stratics isn't advertising its posts either. Or are you saying that Stratics is advertising me because I post on Stratics?

This however has nothing to do with my origional post. Which is about the legality of item sales in general and to put the misinformation to rest. (hopefully)

 

[Cogniac]

This whole point is moot, as even if it was against Origin/EA/Mythic/Bioware/whatever rules, no one in the history of UO has ever been banned for real-money sales of (non-duped) in-game items.

And the ones who were banned for selling duped items weren't banned because they were selling for real-money, it was because the items were duped.

 

[Picus at the office]

I once made the mistake of saying I'd take "cash" while posting about selling a item here and recieved a nice break from posting. I also mentioned taking a trade but never mentioned gold as the "cash" I was talking about was such but....I found it funny as I think the item was worth 50 mil or something which works out to be equal to $0.00 usd cause gold ain't worth squat.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

This whole point is moot, as even if it was against Origin/EA/Mythic/Bioware/whatever rules, no one in the history of UO has ever been banned for real-money sales of (non-duped) in-game items.

And the ones who were banned for selling duped items weren't banned because they were selling for real-money, it was because the items were duped.

Well writ sirrah or madam(as the case maybe)
"WE" however ... maynot know IF anyone was banned for the RMT ...
not hearing/not knowing ... is not sufficient basis for certainty ... that is all.

For the forums:
it is laid out in 11. General Provisions.(below)
with DAoC & WHO for comparision

Compliance with Dark Age of Camelot(TM) Rules of Conduct (Mythic ... yes?)
4. B.
B. SELLING OF ITEMS AND OBJECTS

YOU MAY NOT TRANSFER, SELL OR AUCTION, OR OFFER TO TRANSFER, SELL OR AUCTION, OR BUY OR ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO TRANSFER, SELL OR AUCTION, ANY GAME CONTENT,

Compliance with Warhammer Online Rules of Conduct
4. B.
B. SELLING OF ITEMS AND OBJECTS

YOU MAY NOT TRANSFER, SELL OR AUCTION, OR OFFER TO TRANSFER, SELL OR AUCTION, OR BUY OR ACCEPT ANY OFFER TO TRANSFER, SELL OR AUCTION, ANY GAME CONTENT,


11. General Provisions. (Ultima Online TOS)
My Notification Requests
You may not use, copy, modify, sublicense, rent, sell, assign or transfer the rights or obligations granted to you in this Agreement, except as expressly provided in this Agreement.
...
Electronic Arts' failure to enforce at any time any of the provisions of this Agreement shall in no way be construed to be a present or future waiver of such provisions, nor in any way affect the right of any party to enforce each and every such provision thereafter. The express waiver by Electronic Arts of any provision, condition or requirement of this Agreement shall not constitute a waiver of any future obligation to comply with such provision, condition or requirement.

YOU be construing there LC ...

Buried somewhere in the corrupted files of the forums(pre May '08) I had quoted an earlier version of the tos which DID address the RMT matter more directly.
"Their" stated position -at that time- was that they would not involve themselves with, or take into consideration or "grant" any support to or about: RMT

that text is now gone ... *smirk*
Though there may never be an "address" OF Ultima's RMT ...
Does not mean that they -cannot- take a position now or in the future ...
Part 11.General Provisions. is the freshly bricked road that they MAY, at a time of their choosing ... travel down.

A year old article that covers most of what I covered "back then".
Analysis: How MMOs decriminalize real money trading , News from GamePro

The entire point is moot ...
it is what it is until it isn't ... tada!

 

[Petra Fyde]

How about, you apply your interpretation of the rules on your forums, and I'll apply my interpretation on Stratics and we'll agree to differ on the topic.

conversation terminated.