[Discussion] Scammer list

[Lord Nabin]

I am usually all for the positive approach as in a safe to deal with list however I still feel their is a need for some double check. Just an idea that poped into my head the other day.

What if one of us opened another ICQ number and in the spot where you can create a note for all to see we start listing the known problem children and their information.

You would then be able to open a chat bok and see the list.

I am the first to admit that I have no time to mamage such a thing but maybe there is a way to do this or in another fasion.

Just thought I would open the discussion

 

[hungry4knowhow]

I'm all for it Nabin. Problem is who do wwe entrust to keep that list, and safeguard griefers from just listing anyone. even non scammers

 

[Lord Nabin]

I'm all for it Nabin. Problem is who do wwe entrust to keep that list, and safeguard griefers from just listing anyone. even non scammers

I agree it needs to be well planned. I didn't have all those answers but I bet they are out there in the community.

Heck I would be a site supporter if someone took the time to put a website together but, what he said

 

[hungry4knowhow]

I would be in support, and even give some time to helping develop something like this so long as it is a community effort of known trustworthy people. Such as Nabin, Supsoc, Manticore, Restroom Cowboy, DVI,

I'd say not just anyone should be allowed to throw someone out as a scammer. Maybe a committee of sorts, that people can say hey this guy is a scammer. Then the committee can research the claim(we all know based on past events we are quite the investigators) or maybe even have an amount of funds via donations to go out and test the supposed scammer.

Then should it be true the person is a scammer post their information on said website. Or lets say he turns out just fishy....wants money up front, needs to reactivate an acccount etc...wont deal with a trusted broker. Put up a buyer beware for the individual..

I dunno, just throwing it out there. Im pretty good with graphics and web development. Own quite a few domains, and software licenses so I could volunteer to help on that end.

 

[BlissMarie]

There is the Off Topic - No Holds Barred forum on stratics. If nothing else is figured out or put into motion, a thread could be started there.

To those who haven't been in that forum before, wear some blinders and proceed with caution. You might run into just about anything in there. You have to be 18 to enter that forum and you have to be logged in to even read it.

Here is a quote from the OT Rules of Conduct page:

***This forum is restricted to users 18 and over. Every attempt has been made to prevent access to those under the age of 18. The normal ROC does not apply in this "no holds barred" forum.***
***ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK***​

Here is the forum link.

BlissMarie

 

[hungry4knowhow]

I'd also say maybe we could also list people who are griefers that make false scam reports to slander peoples names. And even have a trusted traders section.

Just tossing out ideas here. I really hope we can get something going, I would be fully willing to help develop it on the web side of things.

 

[ohmyGED]

I think it is a great concept, but there are too many flaws to truly implement it:

1. Far too easy to change identity -- Someone can easily create a new Stratics Forum name / ICQ number / Ultima Online character name

2. Legitimacy -- Validating claims of scammers / legitiment people. As stated, people like SupSoc, Manticore, DVI, etc. are very well known and trusted; but it is a bit more difficult with keeping scammers true, or even tracking them.

3. Maintenance -- is someone going to keep this active, or is it going to crash and burn?


Just food for thought.

 

[Nine Dark Moons]

To those who haven't been in that forum before, wear some blinders and proceed with caution. You might run into just about anything in there. BlissMarie

Yeah... they made me cry lol... i haven't been back since (on the other hand, they seemed to run your rat straight off the internet - heh). But I do think it's a great idea, Bliss, for a place to post a known scammer list (if that's allowed by stratics, even on that forum). Especially if you can get the folks that populate that forum to back the idea. Methinks if they decided to guard a known scammer list, and someone tried to grief it by posting a fake scammer name, they'd sink their venomous teeth into them and spit them out to die... They seem rather, erm, protective of their forum and the posts on their forum.

 

[Tangled Metal]

Unfortunately I feel that this would be a platform that would allow for griefing if someone were to be mad at someone....

 

[Lord Frodo]

Great idea.

Major problem is proving someone is a scammer. You can not just take peoples words on it. I had 2 Luna vendor house owners dropping books saying I was a scammer while trying to sell items at luna bank. Went to check thier prices and found out I was under selling them both.
So does getting tagged by 2 well known sellers get you on that list just because they say so? Anybody can make a char or a lot of chars and say so and so scammed me. EA is the only people that can 100% prove/disprove anything and they will not provide you with that info. Great idea but will be impossible to do. What happens when someone is tagged as a scammer and then they report it to EA as undue harresment. This could open up a big can of worms that might force EA to step in to defend a reported scammer just because some poeple do not like someone and gets thier name put on a list. It also puts UOStratics in the same spot if that site is allowed to even say "come check out or scam list" on Stratics.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

If you read my posts, I suggested forming some sort of committee where when someone went to the website and adds a scammer, it goes into queue and the committee then say looks over the so called scammer & accusers previous Stratics forum trades, investigates the scam at hand. And possibly if there are donations to the venture, can make a trade or multiple trades with said scammer and get a pretty good feel for the fishiness/legit"ness" of said person.

The findings could be added to the website, and make a searchable database of names. It doesnt just have to be Scammers, could be False Accusers, False Positive Trade Backers (this guys good ++++ and its all bs), the latest scams to look out for, ways to protect yourself.

The options are endless. Of course it wouldnt be 100% perfect, and scamming will never TOTALLY end, but it would put a dent in it, and give people a place to search.

Yes scammers can and do make new "persona's" but often times with a little investigation you can see right through the new one and connect the dots.

Nothing is perfect, but what we have right now is so unacceptable anything more would be a VAST improvement.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Unless you can state 100% then your system is flawed. Lets scam the scam list and get people put on it with made up lies/facts. You have just ruined someone in UO. What are you going to do to fix it? Make a post that we were scammed and hope it fixes the damage. The damage is done and the name is ruined. We're sorry would not cut it and you just cost EA a sub.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

Thats why I suggest developing some sort of system to investigate the scammer. A scammer will scam given the opportunity. If this had some good backing, when someone submits someone as a scammer(it wouldnt be public knowledge at that point) then the committee could setup a trade or SOMETHING (i dont know) in order to prove or dis prove the person is a scammer.

You wouldn't just put someone on the scam list because someone said so. That of course would be ridiculous.

Some sort of investigation would have to take place, where you got said person into a trade or, got involved with the situation and found out for ourselves. Then based on our own findings say yay or nay on whether the person is a scammer.

I have no doubt that alot of the names I listed above as well as some I left out (Rowan) would put any personal feelings aside and be completely judgemental based on facts should this take off.

You wouldnt let just anyone on the committee.

Again im just throwing out ideas. Rather than come up with the many ways this would not work (which has been beat to death in other threads) how about we come up with ways this could work, and develop some sort of guide lines.

Again nothing is perfect. But if we could get enough safe guards in place im pretty sure we would do alright.

I think we can all agree that the rules here at Stratics only serve to promote scamming. And this is unacceptable, so we as players should take it into our own hands and develop some way to weed these people out to the best of our abilities.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I think it is a great concept, but there are too many flaws to truly implement it:

1. Far too easy to change identity -- Someone can easily create a new Stratics Forum name / ICQ number / Ultima Online character name

2. Legitimacy -- Validating claims of scammers / legitiment people. As stated, people like SupSoc, Manticore, DVI, etc. are very well known and trusted; but it is a bit more difficult with keeping scammers true, or even tracking them.

3. Maintenance -- is someone going to keep this active, or is it going to crash and burn?


Just food for thought.

You are Oblivion on Atlantic. You would be number one on my personal list of those I would not welcome into my virtual home. Period.

 

[shulginist]

I think it is a great concept, but there are too many flaws to truly implement it:

1. Far too easy to change identity -- Someone can easily create a new Stratics Forum name / ICQ number / Ultima Online character name

2. Legitimacy -- Validating claims of scammers / legitiment people. As stated, people like SupSoc, Manticore, DVI, etc. are very well known and trusted; but it is a bit more difficult with keeping scammers true, or even tracking them.

3. Maintenance -- is someone going to keep this active, or is it going to crash and burn?


Just food for thought.

...

 

[ohmyGED]

You are Oblivion on Atlantic. You would be number one on my personal list of those I would not welcome into my virtual home. Period.

I sure am, and why wouldn't you want to invite me into your virtual home? It should not matter if everything is locked down and secure. *smiles*

 

[ohmyGED]

...

Glad I leave you speechless, yet again. *winks*

 

[Lord Frodo]

We hve players investigate players. They take thier findings to this committee. The committee says yes he is a scammer. You have just become Judge, Jury and Hangman. Let the Committee be like a "Grand Jury" and present it to a Judge(must be a UO Dev) and a Jury with at least 1 UO Dev on it and you must have 100% agreement by Judge and Jury to convict or you owe 1 billion gold to the person on trial for even trying to ruin his/her name.

This is all because of ascam done on Pac and I understand people are mad as he** because of it but what is being proposed is really no different than the Salem Witch Trials.

This is from your post

You wouldnt let just anyone on the committee.

Wasn't it a committee that was scammed in the first place that is bringing this about?

Also Scamming (and I do not approve of it) in UO is legal and if you advertise this "List" or the location of this "List" in UO or on UOStratics could be against thier rules and get people banned here and in game. UOStratics has already taken a stance on this and locked the other threads and I really see no difference between those and this one.

Again im just throwing out ideas. Rather than come up with the many ways this would not work (which has been beat to death in other threads) how about we come up with ways this could work, and develop some sort of guide lines.

A lot of those reasons were very sound and people did not want to listen to them. All they wanted was thier pound of flesh.
The biggest and loudest screams came when someone reminded them was that the scam/con was and is legal in UO.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

Actually I dont believe this thread was started due to the PAC Rares Fest. Otherwise it would have been started Last week.

Second, Im saying the committee does the investigating AND ruling. Yes they would be the judge jury and hangman.

But right now, there is Nothing!

I'm not saying Scamming isnt Legal. Of course it is. What I am saying is that it ruins people's game play.

Just like back in the day when Reds ruined alot of peoples' game play, the Blues banded together and became Judge Jury and Hangman.

Im not suggesting that the people on thsi list should be Banned from UO. What i am suggesting is that if you make a trade with someone on this list you should most definitely think twice AND get a broker involved before proceeding further.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

Wasn't it a committee that was scammed in the first place that is bringing this about?

I think we can all agree that it was just down right ******** to have "he who shall not be named" involved in any way shape or form with this Event. Everyone knows this, and Knew it and went against what their heads were telling them.

 

[Lord Nabin]

Actually the reason I brought this up has nothing to do with the PAc Rares Fest.

It has more to do with the daily trades that take place in this community and one of the reasons I felt comfortable opening the discussion is the fact that we all are concerned with the issue and how to handle it in a way that would be just and protect all involved.


IF stratics were to implement a rating system or some sort of feedback in regards to a trade. I think it would help out greatly however that idea was floated months back and I have seen no effort to implement one.

Maybe we should move our rares community to uoforums that does provide a rating & feedback system. I know it not as visible of a website but it does meet the needs at the moment.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Here might be a better way to go about this. There is a trusted list on the trade forums that could be expanded to do this. The problem with that list is getting it updated and I know for a fact that my name was submitted to it a number of times along with me submitting thier names to get added and yet my name or thiers is not there. Unless it is updated and some how you can get on "the good ole boys list" you are out of luck. Start a trusted list with this committee and let it be fair. UOStratics would be able to back this list where they con not back the scam list.

 

[Gus of Llanowar]

If you read my posts, I suggested forming some sort of committee.

Ive been suggesting this now for around 6 months. But to look more than just issues with this. With the rares community growing there are many other areas that could use some attention. One of these days im going to say i told you so again when something floors the community. Ive done buisness with nearly every major person that participates on this forum and alot of people in game. And if anyone can step up and say I cant be trusted or i dont have the best interest of the community as my perogative i think we need to get these issues out on the table.

 

[DVI]

I agree with frodo that maybe rather than having a scammer list, we focus on rewarding those people who are reliable by adding them to a reliable traders list with the disclosure that it is no guarantee of their continued reliability.

What I might suggest as well though, is a place where we can report bad experiences. Not a black list necessarily, but if Nabin and I do a trade and he screws me over in one fashion or another I could post saying this was the situation. Yes, people can still make stories up etc, and names can still be changed through various means, but I think it could work as a neutral ground so to speak.

 

[DVI]

or even just a basic rating system like some sites use.

You complete a trade and things went well, you leave the other person a positive rating and they get a +1

You complete a trade and things go ok but not great or bad you leave them a +0

You complete a trade and things go badly, you leave them a -1.

Then for each rating you do you leave a brief description about the situation, that way other players have an opportunity to see why you may have felt it went good or bad and can make some of their own assumptions.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

I am with you DVI.

One way we could get around the people making things up is if you post on the site, you must state your stratics name as well. Obviously we are going to give more credence to some one who is active here than someone who has 2 posts and is listing a well known persosn as a scammer

 

[Lord Nabin]

Here is a perfect example.

There is a person on Great Lakes Right now that is putting out books stating that they are selling ..... at a low price and are stocked on all ......

I know from personal experience that they are running a scam and lucky for me I was the seller in my problem transaction with them and so was protected. However anyone who buys from them are going to be in a serious jam.

This is exactly why this info needs a forum to be communicated.

 

[Slickjack]

Yeah, RC, it's sorta telling that my #1 scammer in the entire game has posted in this thread... and just in case there is confusion, being #1 in this category isn't a good thing. It's a "I wouldn't **** on you if you were on fire" type of thing....

 

[hungry4knowhow]

and slickjack i think everybody knows who you are talking about in game.

We can stop this. Make it to where people have to change their complete id's and start from scratch building reputation etc....at some point they will realize that the work is not worth the "reward"

but its not going to happen with Stratics. We all know that much

 

[Apetul]

I would be in support, and even give some time to helping develop something like this so long as it is a community effort of known trustworthy people. Such as Nabin, Supsoc, Manticore, Restroom Cowboy, DVI

The problem with a comitee, is that the persons you trust are not necesarily the same persons that I will trust.
In that list.. I've been scammed in the past from one of those names.

That said, i prefer a rating system.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

well you make a valid point Apetul. But thats also why what I propose isnt a Dictatorship, its a committee.


I am against an open forum rating system because people can make multiple names, and discount the same person over and over and over. It seems to me much more damaging than a system such as one that I propose.

 

[ohmyGED]

Yeah, RC, it's sorta telling that my #1 scammer in the entire game has posted in this thread... and just in case there is confusion, being #1 in this category isn't a good thing. It's a "I wouldn't **** on you if you were on fire" type of thing....

Aww, you at just bitter because you didn't insure your items and were killed by me. *sobs*

Just by talking to you after the facts makes it that much more satisfactory to me because what lies in a game you take far too personal. If you fall for it, blame yourself....don't blame others.

 

[Slickjack]

Well, guess we don't have to worry about you caring about being on a blackball list... and I have never blamed anyone... if anyone loses an item because of insurance, it's there own damn fault... but I'm going to do everything in my power to tell people about the **** you pull just to keep you from profiting in this manner any longer....