Reduce Chivalry to 2/6 casting?

[cobb]

A Chiv character can't just keep casting Remove Curse forever. They will run out of mana.

And if you have Necro, you have access to Mind Rot, which has a lower mana cost than Remove Curse. You can use it to counter an opponent that is spamming Remove Curse.


Not to mention both Corpse Skin and Blood Oath cost less mana to cast than Remove Curse.

I don't see a problem here.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

A Chiv character can't just keep casting Remove Curse forever. They will run out of mana.

And if you have Necro, you have access to Mind Rot, which has a lower mana cost than Remove Curse. You can use it to counter an opponent that is spamming Remove Curse.


Not to mention both Corpse Skin and Blood Oath cost less mana to cast than Remove Curse.

I don't see a problem here.

Then we're having a pointless arguement, you're either a bad troll or a moron.

They cost less mana, but by time you've casted all these debuffs, you've spent way more mana than ONE remove curse, irrespective of Mind Rot, which gets removed with the Remove Curse.

Jesus, the player base has genuinely been diluted down over the years to this level?

 

[cobb]

Maybe you should be more strategic and realize it is not the best idea to stack 20 different debuffs against a Chiv character at once.

Even just Corpse Skin by itself is very good now.


Seems to me you are just lazy and don't want to try and adapt. There are all these counters that exist and you just resort to calling for nerfs.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

You're a bad troll, and probably a bad pvper. I play all types of templates, including a chiv one. It is overpowered. Its 1 spell that needs a longer timer, don't worry, im sure you can just go back to playing a stealther and live in namby pamby land that way.

 

[cobb]

you're either a bad troll or a moron.

Lulz. So this is what it comes down to when the logic of your argument falls apart completely?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Lulz. So this is what it comes down to when the logic of your argument falls apart completely?

There is no point having a discussion with a troll account, the only thing worthwhile to do now is point out Cobb has no intention of adding anything valid to the conversation. Smokescreens and subterfuge do no count as worthwhile additions...

@the mods, I would like to point out that Cobb has frequently and deliberately attempted to derail every thread it has participated in.

 

[cobb]

There is no point having a discussion with a troll account, the only thing worthwhile to do now is point out Cobb has no intention of adding anything valid to the conversation. Smokescreens and subterfuge do no count as worthwhile additions...

@the mods, I would like to point out that Cobb has frequently and deliberately attempted to derail every thread it has participated in.

Providing counter arguments is called trolling now? Do I not provide explanations? I'm being serious about Chivalry not needing a nerf here. I'm not the one throwing insults around and calling people morons. You can't just call me a troll because you're losing the debate.

wow....

 

[TheDrAJ]

So I assume all the people who are looking to nerf chiv are running 120 chiv? If not - why not?

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Lulz. So this is what it comes down to when the logic of your argument falls apart completely?

How is the logic of my arguement falling apart? And how am I losing the arguement? Just because YOU say so? Get over yourself mate.

 

[Cutter]

Then we're having a pointless arguement, you're either a bad troll or a moron.

They cost less mana, but by time you've casted all these debuffs, you've spent way more mana than ONE remove curse, irrespective of Mind Rot, which gets removed with the Remove Curse.

Jesus, the player base has genuinely been diluted down over the years to this level?

You are both right. I play a mage too and definitely understand. It's annoying AF fighting a 4/6'er who just spams remove curse on himself. Cobb is right though. I do this myself at times (when in "grief mode"), but I will quickly run out of mana and not be able to go offense if I do nothing but remove curse...you can also mana vamp me easily enough. Everything has a counter.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

You are both right. I play a mage too and definitely understand. It's annoying AF fighting a 4/6'er who just spams remove curse on himself. Cobb is right though. I do this myself at times (when in "grief mode"), but I will quickly run out of mana and not be able to go offense if I do nothing but remove curse...you can also mana vamp me easily enough. Everything has a counter.

120 Chiv
120 Wrestle
120 Spellweaving
120 Parry
100 Alchy
90 Ninja
50 Med.

Whats your counter 1v1?

 

[Cutter]

120 Chiv
120 Wrestle
120 Spellweaving
120 Parry
100 Alchy
90 Ninja
50 Med.

Whats your counter 1v1?

That template is the one which poses issues. I can't argue w/ this.

Perhaps make it where having 69.9+ SW caps Chiv casting @ 2/6 the way it works with magery?

The problem here isn't templates like mine though, and certainly is not with those who rely on chiv for PvM. The above template is definitely an issue, but as I said, a blanket cap to chiv casting, while possibly solving the above, will open up many more cans of worms.

Having said all that - Mana Vamp FTW vs that template. Of course they will just run off at that point, but they won't be able to do much if you chain mana vamp. They certainly won't be able to continue spamming remove curse, let alone go offense.

 

[805connection]

120 Chiv
120 Wrestle
120 Spellweaving
120 Parry
100 Alchy
90 Ninja
50 Med.

Whats your counter 1v1?

My temp is
120 wrestling
120 chiv
120 resist
120 parry
100 alchy
100 sw
80 ninjia

Basically its a tank template, On a side note other games have tank temps that do little damage 1 vs 1 but are just there to take the damage (which I am fine with) however Remove curse still needs to cast at 2.5 or cost 40 mana.

 

[Cutter]

My temp is
120 wrestling
120 chiv
120 resist
120 parry
100 alchy
100 sw
80 ninjia

Basically its a tank template, On a side note other games have tank temps that do little damage 1 vs 1 but are just there to take the damage (which I am fine with) however Remove curse still needs to cast at 2.5 or cost 40 mana.

Yea that is even worse since mana vamp won't work.

I think the 69.9+ in SW capping chiv casting @ 2/6 as I mentioned above might be a potential solution. It worked when implemented for chiv/magery anyways.

In any case I can understand both sides of this argument. Definitely a conundrum.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Providing counter arguments is called trolling now? Do I not provide explanations? I'm being serious about Chivalry not needing a nerf here. I'm not the one throwing insults around and calling people morons. You can't just call me a troll because you're losing the debate.

wow....

You don't need to throw insults around or call people morons in order to troll, all you need to do is nudge the thread off the cliff. That is why there is a rule about thread derailment.

So please, lets keep this about the subject...thanks.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

You are both right. I play a mage too and definitely understand. It's annoying AF fighting a 4/6'er who just spams remove curse on himself. Cobb is right though. I do this myself at times (when in "grief mode"), but I will quickly run out of mana and not be able to go offense if I do nothing but remove curse...you can also mana vamp me easily enough. Everything has a counter.

Add resist and that counter goes on vacation. A good portion of mage templates also do not have the room to run 120 med, so the mana issue occurs on both sides...and while a dexxer can fight without mana...a mage cannot.

Regarding mana vamp...not very many run around without resist in pvp these days...

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Yea that is even worse since mana vamp won't work.

I think the 69.9+ in SW capping chiv casting @ 2/6 as I mentioned above might be a potential solution. It worked when implemented for chiv/magery anyways.

In any case I can understand both sides of this argument. Definitely a conundrum.

Potential solution? Capped casting dependent on skill should have been implemented for chivalry at the same time they made the mage changes years ago.

While this would help, it still doesn't change the issues associated with casting set too fast for chivalry compared to the remainder of skills...

 

[805connection]

That template is the one which poses issues. I can't argue w/ this.

Perhaps make it where having 69.9+ SW caps Chiv casting @ 2/6 the way it works with magery?

The problem here isn't templates like mine though, and certainly is not with those who rely on chiv for PvM. The above template is definitely an issue but as I said, a blanket cap to chiv casting, while possibly solving the above, will open up many more cans of worms.

Having said all that - Mana Vamp FTW vs that template. Of course they will just run off at that point, but they won't be able to do much if you chain mana vamp. They certainly won't be able to continue spamming remove curse, let alone go offense.

I dont want chiv cap at all i have no problem with 4/6 casting. I feel you give a lot to obtain it and it works great.

Potential solution? Capped casting dependent on skill should have been implemented for chivalry at the same time they made the mage changes years ago.

While this would help, it still doesn't change the issues associated with casting set too fast for chivalry compared to the remainder of skills...

Close wounds is fine, even cleanse by fire is fine, Holy fist is capped no matter what at 2.5 so that is fine, Concentrate, divine fury fine... Sac Journey, and remove curse are the issues.

 

[Cutter]

Remove curse takes

Potential solution? Capped casting dependent on skill should have been implemented for chivalry at the same time they made the mage changes years ago.

While this would help, it still doesn't change the issues associated with casting set too fast for chivalry compared to the remainder of skills...

Aren't there other skills (more powerful than chiv) that also cast at 4/6? SW if I'm not mistaken.

Implement the 69.9 thing for Chiv/SW and it's solved. I don't see where remove curse is an issue other than when combined with the template mentioned above (with SW/Wrestle/Parry - which the 69.9 solution would fix), but I'd also be fine with a slight increase to the casting time for it regardless.

Heck just go ahead and nerf it entirely. Would give me a reason to make my Ds'er a proper CC'er toon.

 

[Gorath]

Remove curse takes


Aren't there other skills (more powerful than chiv) that also cast at 4/6? SW if I'm not mistaken.

Implement the 69.9 thing for Chiv/SW and it's solved. I don't see where remove curse is an issue other than when combined with the template mentioned above (with SW/Wrestle/Parry - which the 69.9 solution would fix), but I'd also be fine with a slight increase to the casting time for it regardless.

Heck just go ahead and nerf it entirely. Would give me a reason to make my Ds'er a proper CC'er toon.

I definitely think that spellweaving should effect chiv the same.

It's just with the itemization/eaters/regens/apples and speed in which people can cast now that it's just stupidly hard to kill. Couple with pixies, parry etc it's dumb.

Chivalry always seemed to me like a pvm skill. I wouldn't want any changes to effect pvmers.

 

[Cutter]

I definitely think that spellweaving should effect chiv the same.

It's just with the itemization/eaters/regens/apples and speed in which people can cast now that it's just stupidly hard to kill. Couple with pixies, parry etc it's dumb.

Chivalry always seemed to me like a pvm skill. I wouldn't want any changes to effect pvmers.

Can't argue with that. I remember plenty of times a certain someone running that template would wreak havoc simply by being unkillable and running interfereance, with people not realizing even attacking him is pointless...heh

 

[TheDrAJ]

I do agree on one thing - get rid of scared journey and replace it with a gate spell.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

You are both right. I play a mage too and definitely understand. It's annoying AF fighting a 4/6'er who just spams remove curse on himself. Cobb is right though. I do this myself at times (when in "grief mode"), but I will quickly run out of mana and not be able to go offense if I do nothing but remove curse...you can also mana vamp me easily enough. Everything has a counter.

On my chiv char I could remove curse after every single curse and not run out of mana. So you are doing something wrong.

On top of that I hold remove curses to be annoying and make them waste mana on their next spell. And you can't vamp me. So great points! *eye roll*

 

[PaithanTheElf]

Anyone that thinks 4/6 remove curse should stay depends on it. It is the most overpowered spell in game.

 

[Cutter]

Anyone that thinks 4/6 remove curse should stay depends on it. It is the most overpowered spell in game.

False. The most OP spell in game is easily Blood Oath, followed closely by Evil Omen.

 

[cobb]

Anyone that thinks 4/6 remove curse should stay depends on it. It is the most overpowered spell in game.

That is just your opinion

 

[cobb]

I don't even spam Remove Curse on my Chiv char like people here are suggesting. That is not the best way to deal with someone spamming curse on me.

Especially with the increased mana cost of holy fist, wasting mana like that is just not a good idea.

 

[cobb]

I don't necessarily object to the combination of wrestle/chiv/sw being looked at. I agree with the not allowing more than 69.9 SW.


Might be hard to kill, but does that temp really pose any offensive threat?

 

[Cutter]

Don't forget chiv was already nerfed somewhat even before the issue of holy fist. You used to be able to cast chiv spells while doing specials...that was done away with not too long ago.

 

[Cutter]

I don't necessarily object to the combination of wrestle/chiv/sw being looked at. I agree with the not allowing more than 69.9 SW.


Might be hard to kill, but does that temp really pose any offensive threat?

The effectiveness of the template is to run interference and serve as a distraction since it's near-unkillable. People don't realize this and everyone tries to drop him. Meanwhile, fields drop, opposing forces take over the terrain while everyone is distracted trying to kill the wrestle/parry/4/6 weaver... and the battle is lost.

Massive offensive output no, but arguably the MVP of any given fight.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

That is just your opinion

It needs to be slowed down or cost 6x the mana. I am not sure how devs still allow that drivel.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

False. The most OP spell in game is easily Blood Oath, followed closely by Evil Omen.

False, blood oath and evil omen both require SS AND negative karma to be effective, so I would be hard pressed to call them OP. Add in the ability to remove curse at 4/6, and neither of those abilities will be doing much of anything...aside from wasting mana. If you want to bring necromancy into the discussion, then lets treat chivalry like necro and require a useless tertiary skill to make it work.

 

[cobb]

Requires negative karma? what is so hard about that? In fact because it lowers your karma, it has better synergy with skills such as Poisoning. On the other hand Chiv and Poisoning do not go together well.


And nobody is going to Remove Curse after every single omen.

 

[cobb]

You don't need to throw insults around or call people morons in order to troll, all you need to do is nudge the thread off the cliff. That is why there is a rule about thread derailment.

So please, lets keep this about the subject...thanks.

That is just sad. You can't provide reasons to why my points are wrong, so you resort to crying to the mods.


Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are a troll. I'm not sure you know what the word means. Please feel free to abuse the Report button and watch as nothing happens though.




Seems to me that you are the one diverting attention away from the topic by calling me a troll. I have stayed on topic the entire time unlike you.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Then we're having a pointless arguement, you're either a bad troll or a moron.

Is this your moronic answer to anyone that disagrees with you? You sound like my 5 year old grandchild. It is not OP because it CAN BE KILLED just not as fast as you would like.

mo·ron·ic
məˈränik/
adjective
informal

1. very foolish or stupid.
   "a truly moronic movie"
   synonyms: stupid, foolish, senseless, brainless, mindless, idiotic, imbecile, insane, lunatic, asinine, ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd, preposterous, silly, inane, witless, half-baked, empty-headed, unintelligent, slow-witted, weak-minded;

Sure sounds like a very good description of YOU.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Stop raging. You're a bad player, everyone here can tell just by the crap you're coming out with. You're the most dangerous type of board poster, stupid comments and cry babying stopping the devs from doing good things in this game because you can't not play like a complete chicken.

If you're so convinced, i'll throw together a 4/6er and you can try kill me. I'll give you a 60 minute timer too. Await the dodge.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Is this your moronic answer to anyone that disagrees with you? You sound like my 5 year old grandchild. It is not OP because it CAN BE KILLED just not as fast as you would like.

So, because you say it isn't OP...it isn't OP? Ok, please take pwnystation up on the challenge or ask paithan for a fight. Afterword, please come back and let us know how long it took you to kill them (you won't) and if you changed your mind on how OP chivalry can be at negating other entire templates (guessing you won't)

@cobb, don't even bother awaiting a response to anymore of your crap posts outside this response...trying to explain anything to you is about the same as trying to answer a two year old asking *why*.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

People that rely on chiv to live will never concede that at 4/6 it is way overpowered.

Let mages use it and every single mage on the shard would use 4/6 chiv. Guess why?

 

[drcossack]

People that rely on chiv to live will never concede that at 4/6 it is way overpowered.

Let mages use it and every single mage on the shard would use 4/6 chiv. Guess why?

For the same reasons why every mage (who could afford it) used 5/6 prior to Pub 25: It's imbalanced (I was going to say overpowered, but chiv doesn't have the offensive output mages had back then.)

I've fought multiple people with chiv. Pulling a # out of my *** here, because there's definitely WAY more than ten 4/6'ers : Of the 10 I've fought, there is ONE I've killed 1v1. And that was only because he sucks + I had an RC beating on him.

If you give an average player a 4/6 chiv template, they're not going to die in a 1v1 fight, and neither will the player fighting them. I'm not in favor of completely nerfing Chiv, but at the very least, something needs to be done about the casting speed of Remove Curse/Cleanse by Fire/Close Wounds.

 

[Cady]

I don't even spam Remove Curse on my Chiv char like people here are suggesting. That is not the best way to deal with someone spamming curse on me.

Who would be 'spamming curse' if you weren't following up every curse with a remove curse? Is this a completely made up statement and scenario?

 

[Cutter]

I hate it too when I'm on my mage trying to fight a 4/6'er and they just spam remove every time I curse. If it's just me after him I usually don't even bother.

So...is it a little bit OP - perhaps, but so are the glenda templates, the dp/splinter mages, spell trigger, tamers in PvP, and plenty of other things.

Lets just nerf everything!

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

It is really funny watching people who finally become relevant due to an imbalance do everything they can to keep it in place. PvP is stale and boring in its current state. Nothing else to really say about it. 4/6 needs to be dropped to 2/6 when using more than one casting skill line. Simply fix and allows pure templates to come into play. Casting ninja at 4fc and casting sw at 4fc is stupid. The current loot is what broke this game allowing every single possibility to be achieved in a suit. Only way to fix any of this is to go backwards which really make no sense in progressing the game forward.

The argument about running out of manna is comical and if you play with meditation you are wasting 40-120skill points.

Just wait till you see 4/6 tamers with a pet casting SW spells subing out 80-120 skill points you can put somewhere else. The idea of the current 4/6 state along with the taming patch is a nightmare. Adding bush heals, evasion and now a taming mastery allowing you to split dmg with your pet?! I have zero interest participating in any of this

 

[cobb]

I support the idea of not allowing 4/6 casting if you have both Spell Weaving and Chivalry.

Maybe also add Wrestling and Taming to the restriction list.

 

[drcossack]

It is really funny watching people who finally become relevant due to an imbalance do everything they can to keep it in place. PvP is stale and boring in its current state. Nothing else to really say about it. 4/6 needs to be dropped to 2/6 when using more than one casting skill line. Simply fix and allows pure templates to come into play. Casting ninja at 4fc and casting sw at 4fc is stupid. The current loot is what broke this game allowing every single possibility to be achieved in a suit. Only way to fix any of this is to go backwards which really make no sense in progressing the game forward.

The argument about running out of manna is comical and if you play with meditation you are wasting 40-120skill points.

Just wait till you see 4/6 tamers with a pet casting SW spells subing out 80-120 skill points you can put somewhere else. The idea of the current 4/6 state along with the taming patch is a nightmare. Adding bush heals, evasion and now a taming mastery allowing you to split dmg with your pet?! I have zero interest participating in any of this

Let me guess. There was no testing as to how these additions would affect pvp.

 

[cobb]

If pets are problematic, then the pets should be nerfed and not chivalry. Should we nerf weapon skills too because some tamers use weapons? Should magery/eval be nerfed because of mage tamers in pvp? Some backwards logic

 

[cobb]

Who would be 'spamming curse' if you weren't following up every curse with a remove curse? Is this a completely made up statement and scenario?

I don't remove curse every time. Not a smart use of mana

 

[PaithanTheElf]

If pets are problematic, then the pets should be nerfed and not chivalry. Should we nerf weapon skills too because some tamers use weapons? Should magery/eval be nerfed because of mage tamers in pvp? Some backwards logic

People aren't talking about nerfing chiv because of taming. They are saying it because of how overpowered 4/6 chiv is by itself. Not hard to follow.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

People aren't talking about nerfing chiv because of taming. They are saying it because of how overpowered 4/6 chiv is by itself. Not hard to follow.

Not hard to follow? Rainman seems to think that as long as he tells the audience there isn't a problem, then there isn't a problem. So I guess there isn't a problem?

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

All these kids that were irrelevant are kicking and screaming to keep the only template they can play the way it is. It's really funny! Again, if you cannot see the imbalance then you are bias. Pretty simple to follow!

 

[MalagAste]

What about a compromise? How about testing how 3/6 would be?

Wouldn't totally cripple their templates... but would level things a bit without making them totally useless.

And what if you went a step further and had this only apply in PvP?