racial advantages

[anna anomalous]

simply breaking down the current racial abilities, it's not hard to see the disadvantages humans face compared to gargoyles and even elves in a PvP setting.

when considering the buffs, other than personal choice, why would anyone choose a human race for PvP?

humans:
ability to allow the player to carry more
jack of all trades: humans have 20 basic skill in all skills
ability to get more resources from farming

elves:
passive detect
mana increase
75 energy resist cap
higher chance to get special resources from farming

gargoyles:
basic mysticism knowledge (30 skill)
50% hit chance cap instead of 45%
2 static MR which stacks with other MR
berserk ability
ability to fly without using a follower slot

other benefits to gargoyles:
one handed throwing weapons that can be given the same buffs as an archery weapon. for example, any throwing weapon can have 25% defense/hit chance, making it easier for gargoyles to reach chance caps while still being able to use potions and deal two handed weapon damage while equipping a one-hander.


with this said, should humans and even elves receive some sort of buff to their racial abilities to counter act these clear PvP advantages given to gargoyles?

uo was always about customization and person choice, why are we being pigeon holed into choosing one race for it's advantages over the others?

(i use gargoyles in pvp settings, but it's clear the human race could use a little love)

 

[Tor the Invincible]

Of course the human racials should be buffed. I mean look at that list, what the heck is that list trying to tell us? That humans should be mining/lumberjacking mules and leave everything else to the elves and gargoyles?

The other races get free mana, a free pet control slot, a higher resist, an HCI cap buff, and what do humans get? Jack of All Trades? Oh man look out for that human, he has a free 20 in every skill. He might Magic Arrow you to death or something.

I mean forget PVP specifically, WTF are humans supposed to be good for in general besides farming a lot of ore or something? Even then elves are more likely to farm the rare stuff.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I never would have done racial advantages in the first place in UO. I would have made races a cosmetic thing (like the body sculptor does in KR/EC) and let people decide how they wanted to play them.

Racial advantages only brings out the min-max attitude in people choosing a race based on the bonus, not on the concept of being the race.

UO had "races" YEARS before they were officially added into the game, players simply worked within the system to become said race.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

Actually most PvPers use Pots to raise stats, so they don't care about Elves added Mana, they prefer Humans free Regens and the free 20 Tracking. On the other hand Elves is an excellent choice for PvM.

Gargoyles is a different story, they do have some advantage on paper, but in practice the limited equipment choice also gives some severe limitations.

 

[red sky]

Actually most PvPers use Pots to raise stats, so they don't care about Elves added Mana, they prefer Humans free Regens and the free 20 Tracking. On the other hand Elves is an excellent choice for PvM.

Gargoyles is a different story, they do have some advantage on paper, but in practice the limited equipment choice also gives some severe limitations.

This, Ms. Anna, is the answer to your problem. Hence, why most pvpers are humans to begin with. And also, why I will kick any elf or gargs ass in a 1 v 1 with my human char.

 

[Cetric]

Humans were awesome pre- Joat mana cost nerf.

Now.. they are still ok for joat med/focus and the carrying ability comes in handy, but gargoyles are pretty sick with 50hci and flying being really nice.

Elves only come in handy for non-faction woodland armor and sampires.

 

[anna anomalous]

added regen is just from 20 focus and 20 med, which doesn't equate much more than 2 mana regen (the same as gargoyles). except, with humans, when you actually bring these skills past 20 skill, there is no added effect. meanwhile, gargoyles who bring focus or medi past 20 skill, get their racial 2 MR to stack with the MR given from the skills too. clearly an advantage for gargs if you have medi or focus on your template.

on the other hand, being able to track or detect players (who use invisibility) is definitely something worth having jack of all trades for, i don't disagree there.

as far as making suits, i find it much easier on gargoyles because of the faction glasses giving more total resists than gargoyle's earrings slot is used to having.

sure, these advantages are limited and not game breakers, but why not give humans or elves something to counter it such as a total defense cap of 50%? or humans getting a strength stat buff to counter elves mana increase?

just seems like a heavy emphasis on gargoyle's racial abilities without considering a buff for humans.

 

[curlybeard]

I would think that the 1000 (or so) extra skill points from JoAT would be enough for humans relative to the bonuses for the others. JoAT is open to so much creativity. Elves are super annoying in fel, they always passively reveal me when I am delivering my killer muffins. The 30 skill in mysticism for gargoyles isn't terribly useful. If any class needed JoAT it would be the gargoyles as they don't have any +20 skill arties.

 

[G.v.P]

Only way to solve Gargoyles is to introduce 135 STR soft cap Orcs w/ 3 HPR native, 50 DCI hard cap and +5 DCI while riding ridge backs.

Oh, then nerf Gargoyles a little.

 

[anna anomalous]

Only way to solve Gargoyles is to introduce 135 STR soft cap Orcs w/ 3 HPR native, 50 DCI hard cap and +5 DCI while riding ridge backs.

Oh, then nerf Gargoyles a little.

cool idea for a new race and would help the RP side as well. my overall idea here is just to balance the races, adding one that counters gargoyles is definitely down that alley, but humans should definitely be considered as well.

each race deserves functional racial abilities that offer unique advantages over the other races but equally.

 

[yars]

lets not forget elves have nightsight and thier own armor
gargs also their own armor and weapons

one gripe is the armor and weps are not alterable back and forth.

seems rather silly that gargoyles came from the abyss, where its dark!!! but dont have nightsight as a natural ability

 

[Tor the Invincible]

Proof positive that Stratics mooks will vote down any proposal, except maybe "revert UO to 1998 spec, lose all customers" or some dinosaur crap like that. Human racials are garbage. LOL JOAT and it's.. what.. 3 MR? That is, if you don't have med or focus.

Gargs get 2 MR that actually stacks with focus/med on top of other decent racials.

 

[G.v.P]

each race deserves functional racial abilities that offer unique advantages over the other races but equally.

I agree...btw, you forgot about the HPR 2 Human bonus. I'd take a MR bonus over a HPR bonus any day, but just saying.

Yeah, when Gargoyles came out they were pretty awful, then they buffed them a lot until they were too powerful. I think "balanced" on a one handed ranged weapon is going to be the final straw.

 

[red sky]

Gargoyles can't ride mounts - Huge PVP disadvantage.

Gargoyles can only use certain armor/artifacts - Huge PVP disadvantage.

My only concern is that the gargoyle's flying/mounting time is the same as that of an ethereal. Not sure if they are or not.

End of thread.


P.S. My only gargoyle is my imbuer.

 

[elspeth]

I actually enjoy the JOAT quite a bit on humans. Like someone else said, open to a lot of creativity or course that means that every human character I have carries around one of each and every spellbook. Fillin' up my pack, that is a bit annoying. The 20 skill points in the fighting skills aren't terribly useful but the magical ones are fun.

 

[CovenantX]

Gargoyle flying (mount-up) speed is about as fast as a G-heal spell at 2/6 casting, although most gargoyles have ninjitsu for animal form, to avoid the disadvantage of being dismounted.
I don't think i've seen any pvp gargoyles playing something Other than a thrower, come to think of it.

The artifacts that humans have that are Not Alterable, the only good ones are chest pieces. RBC and AoF?
and gargoyles get their own tunic "Breast Plate of the Berserker" far better than any other dexer chest piece imo, although its not med-able.

All faction headpieces except hunters headress and spirit of the totem are alterable.

I don't think racial abilities really need to be tweaked much, most everything in pvp is fine, except Base Weapon Damage, ranged vs melee.

Nearly ALL ranged weapons hit harder than most 2 handed melee weapons, And they allow you to chug pots, i never understood why that was even implemented.

Melee weapons do not hit hard enough, Specifically Two-handed melee weapons.

Buff up the base damage on ALL 2 handed melee weapons, No one uses them, due to the fact you cannot chug pots, and they hit only about 2-5 dmg higher than 1-handed melee weapons, and are a great deal slower in most cases.

 

[Merion]

As long as the JoaT skills counted towards the mana reduction for special attacks, everything was fine.

Since the nerfed that, humans really get the short end of the stick. They should just revert that and everything's fine again

 

[Basara]

As long as the JoaT skills counted towards the mana reduction for special attacks, everything was fine.

Since they nerfed that, humans really get the short end of the stick. They should just revert that and everything's fine again

Amen.

Many "balance" changes made for PvP has been a nerf for non-PvP humans, especially ones that don't want to have a non-sampire/whammy dexxer.

It was made clear during ML testing that the JOAT counting toward special moves was an INTENDED part of balancing Humans vs. Elves. Without it, there's no reason other than roleplay to play a non-elf outside PvP.

Consider that Elves:
Get more mana for casting (all caster templates) and special moves (weapon users).
Wear armor humans can't wear, while being able to wear all human gear (all templates), with some of the equipment being considerably overpowered by human standards (Wood armor resists, and HPR from bloodwood enhancement, additional skill points and higher bonuses from special tailor recipes, etc.)



And, I'm still waiting for logical justification for why Bushido & Ninjitsu count toward special moves when Chivalry doesn't. Without JOAT counting for special moves, the standard Templates for Ninja & Samurai are set up to be 300 qualifying points at 3xGM in the core skills. Only non-standard templates such as Axers, Poisoners, and stealth warriors have the ability to reach 300 without Bushido or Ninjitsu. This pretty much marginalizes any attempt to play TWO standard templates (Fighter, Paladin) in the game - especially Archers and 1-handed weapon users with shields.



Since Garriott claims he had forbidden Elves and Oriental stuff (especially Ninja), maybe the devs that started nerfing humans and non-SE templates decided to overdo those things to spite him. I know the changes seem to give the impression that they were done to spite those that didn't want to play elven sampires (which is ironic, because Calvin was so PvP obsessed he didn't know Sampires/Whammies existed, let alone had become 90%+ of PvM warrior template builds, at the High Seas announcement on 8/28/10 - so apparently it was done totally out of ignorance of the state of the game, not malicious intent).

 

[Yalp]

any throwing weapon can have 25% defense/hit chance,

only the boomerang can be capped at 25 dci
no throwing wep can be capped at 25 hci

 

[Cetric]

only the boomerang can be capped at 25 dci
no throwing wep can be capped at 25 hci

um.. yea it can


all ranged weapons can have 25hci and 25dci

 

[PJay]

Yeah i think i agree with the comments gargoyles either need a nerf or humans and elves need a buff the former being easier to achieve.

And this berserk rage thing has me puzzled for every 20% hp lost i believe yet certain gargoyles on Europa if touched with a tiny spell like magic arrow when they are full hp are straight into rage!

AND the RAGE is crazy 60di and 12 sdi ontop of the uber weps which can be created. Its just like they went over the top on gargoyles they do indeed have disadvantages but right now your lucky to be alive to kill them when that time comes they hit so damn hard and never seem to miss!

I think to start they should rescale berserk half the bonus and let it kick in at 50% hp!

 

[Mirt]

I would think that the 1000 (or so) extra skill points from JoAT would be enough for humans relative to the bonuses for the others. JoAT is open to so much creativity. Elves are super annoying in fel, they always passively reveal me when I am delivering my killer muffins. The 30 skill in mysticism for gargoyles isn't terribly useful. If any class needed JoAT it would be the gargoyles as they don't have any +20 skill arties.

Think about what you can do with a mere 20 skill. Now imagine how often your going to fail.