R/P Question -How can there be 2 Kings?. One must step aside.

[Promathia]

1. Lord British may not be back in our game, but he IS alive, therefore he is still King. For him not to be King he had to, or has to, abdicate and now to further complicate the issue it seems that -
By having Lord British reappear they have made nonsense of one section of Sosarian lore.

Stop stop stop.

This is just plainly not true. Where are you finding the Ultima Lore for the rules on Kingship? What about the King before British? British himself was practically ELECTED King. He WILLINGLY gave up his power, to leave and protect the shards. He WILLINGLY gave the Council right to rule.

This is not real life, nor is it some other fantasy world. This is Ultima, thus only Ultima should be taken into consideration for the "rules" on Kings or rulers.

 

[Dot_Warner]

It is all very well building a story as you go along but this game has lore and some effort should be directed into at least making any new lines feasible within it. By having Lord British reappear they have made nonsense of one section of Sosarian lore.

The lore has been nonsense for quite some time, as there is NO overarching plotline in UO, there have been attempts, but then EA did one of its mass layoffs and the current architect vanishes. Thus, we get retcons like Robothorn being a clone, and unexplained timeloops like the Ararat showing up with Shadowlords after they've already been defeated. Then there's just plain silly things like Anon, whose soap operaesque side-swap feels like a desperate plot device; i.e. "WTF do we do with factions?!" Last but not least, Mary Sue the Enchantress, er...Minax, randomly cropping up to twirl her moustache whenever a big bad is needed.

UO is in desperate need of a coherent fictional vision that isn't reliant on the same old baddies being recycled and never killed off.

As for there being "two kings," let it go. British isn't royalty, he was handed the crown by Wolfgang for deeds saving Akalabeth. However, if you really want to be anal.... Since Mondain was Wolfgang's son (second son actually, but the first was killed...by Mondain), the current heir by direct lineage would be Exodus...Mondain and Minax's "son." So unless you want to hand over the kingdom to a daemonic cyborg with daddy issues....

Blackthorn is at least Sosarian-born and nobility, "chosen by the people" to lead Britannia long after it's original liege turned his back on it.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

The lore has been nonsense for quite some time, as there is NO overarching plotline in UO, there have been attempts, but then EA did one of its mass layoffs and the current architect vanishes. Thus, we get retcons like Robothorn being a clone, and unexplained timeloops like the Ararat showing up with Shadowlords after they've already been defeated. Then there's just plain silly things like Anon, whose soap operaesque side-swap feels like a desperate plot device; i.e. "WTF do we do with factions?!" Last but not least, Mary Sue the Enchantress, er...Minax, randomly cropping up to twirl her moustache whenever a big bad is needed.

UO is in desperate need of a coherent fictional vision that isn't reliant on the same old baddies being recycled and never killed off.

As for there being "two kings," let it go. British isn't royalty, he was handed the crown by Wolfgang for deeds saving Akalabeth. However, if you really want to be anal.... Since Mondain was Wolfgang's son (second son actually, but the first was killed...by Mondain), the current heir by direct lineage would be Exodus...Mondain and Minax's "son." So unless you want to hand over the kingdom to a daemonic cyborg with daddy issues....

Blackthorn is at least Sosarian-born and nobility, "chosen by the people" to lead Britannia long after it's original liege turned his back on it.

I will add that even in the RL medieval and ancient worlds the hereditary principle was not adhered to with equal strictness in every jurisdiction. And the reality was, shall we say, a complex mix of methods of selecting rulers.

-Galen's player

 

[Aurelius]

Lord British is NOT back.

Not how I read the current fiction at all ...

“I have...admittedly been caught up of late with new adventures. I have traveled to the stars...leaving behind the trappings of earth for a time and feeling what it is like to truly be free of all constraints. And though she could not come with me, I have also found love...and found a bond that can never be broken. Looking back, I realize that all of my ponderings and thoughts and musings upon the natures of the Virtues have come back to me in such a profound new manner at having experienced such a wondrous thing first hand...especially after being able to bring new life into existence. Through it all, I have had the shards of the gem...but they are safely with Nystul, for now. I found that a return to Britannia was in order...and it seems that the realm has it's share of troubles. Was that Sir Dupre I spied leaving as I crossed the upper walkways?”"

Now since the probability is Richard Garriott isn't going to be all that involved in the game, but nowhere in the fiction I have seen is there indication British is not going to be around, either as a recurring visitor or as a regular inhabitant. As far as my characters are concerned, he's no longer gone from the game world, and if someone is no longer gone, 'back' seems pretty much the correct word to use....

 

[Aurelius]

UO is in desperate need of a coherent fictional vision that isn't reliant on the same old baddies being recycled and never killed off.

Yep, it is - but we won't get it, and anything they did try on those lines will involve re-writing and retconning so much of the existing mess that huge complaint will follow no matter what they try ...

I agree a lot of the UO fiction has been frankly rubbish - characters changing personality completely for no reason at all other than it gave a 'neat' new gimmick some tenuous supporting background, temporarily 'forgetting' lore only to haul it back out again to dress up some bright new idea that then failed to deliver on the possibilites so gets quietly forgotten again ... but from the mess we have I'll settle for just a coherent and sensible world story with characters who don't completely reverse philosophies at the drop of a hat. And I suspect, sadly, even that is too much to hope for....

 

[Dot_Warner]

Now since the probability is Richard Garriott isn't going to be all that involved in the game, but nowhere in the fiction I have seen is there indication British is not going to be around, either as a recurring visitor or as a regular inhabitant. As far as my characters are concerned, he's no longer gone from the game world, and if someone is no longer gone, 'back' seems pretty much the correct word to use....

"I found that a return to Britannia was in order..."

One may return somewhere without being "back" in the long-term sense. Like you might return to your parent's home for winter break from school, but you're only visiting temporarily.

LB was just visiting, much like he tactlessly visited a bunch a free shards a few months ago. LB lives in New Britannia now, the best can hope for is random visits from our ex-Liege. (Do you expect him to abandon his new family like he did Sosaria?) However, I, for one, would rather he stay away...especially if any future appearances will be as unprofessionally presented as the 17th charade on TC1.

 

[Captn Norrington]

To be honest, I'm surprised the other SotA developers let him and Darkstarr do this visit, from what I've seen on their forums, the VAST majority of their players hate modern UO with a passion. Every time I say anything good about UO on their forum, within minutes there's people saying that UO is ruined, should be deleted, etc.

Although I appreciated his visit, it doesn't really send a good message to SotA players who just donated money, when they see him randomly return to the game he sold almost 15 years ago and has said many times he has no interest in working on again instead of working on his new game. Alot of people on their forum have had the "well, now how do we know he isn't just going to abandon this game and go back to UO" feeling about the situation.

 

[Dot_Warner]

Yep, it is - but we won't get it, and anything they did try on those lines will involve re-writing and retconning so much of the existing mess that huge complaint will follow no matter what they try ...

It could be done. I'm fairly certain the dangling plot threads could be trimmed fairly easily by the EMs. The most expedient route would be to kill off Minax, Anon and Exodus once and for all. Then create a new bad guy/girl/group to use that won't violate its own canon every other story.

The FoA is the best example of an evil group, mostly UO-specific, but they're pretty much a laughingstock now due to mishandling.

Virtuebane was a decent lurch in that direction. He was mentioned in Ultima lore, but his arc was an off-screen thing in the other games, so he couldn't really conflict with much. That's not to say his arc was perfect by any stretch... Especially at the end... Someone forgot that humility and humiliation aren't the same thing.

Casca was a good riff on Blackthorn's corruption by the Shadowlords, though his story was only fully told on like two shards.

Dawn, the only fully UO-specific character was used to middling effect at her inception...was set up to replace LB...then she disappeared...then randomly reappeared, crowned...then killed off in favor of the current retconned, feckless, milquetoast Blackthorn. (Seriously, the character has the gravitas of a sock puppet)

UO needs an ongoing, weekly/bi-weekly background fiction arc with a global event every 3rd month or so. (EM events are great, but they should mostly be shard specific stuff.)

 

[Sir_Bolo]

1. Lord British may not be back in our game, but he IS alive, therefore he is still King. For him not to be King he had to, or has to, abdicate

Lord British did abdicate in favour of the Ruling Council during this event in 2003:

http://www.uoguide.com/BNN:_Farewell_to_the_King

2. Lord British (the King) has a child, boy or girl it matters not. Even if he now abdicates that child is the legitimate heir

This doesn't matter, since there's no hint that Britannia has ever been a hereditary monarchy. It is de facto, and possibly also de jure, an elective monarchy.

OOC: it doesn't really matter, I'm pretty sure that Richard Garriott/Lord British won't stay around, he'll go back to New Britannia and maybe visit the old Britannia occasionally

 

[Bobar]

We should settle this fairly, kick them both out and make Lord Dupre king! if he isn't qualified who is? he watched Lord British rule for 20+ years in the original ultima series, and has watched Blackthorn rule for about 3 years in UO. Dupre for King!! *begins putting up campaign advertisements*

I wouldn't disagree with you on this one. Dupre was always my choice when this was being talked about. It would at least be sensible unlike British is dead/gone, British is back, Blackthorn is dead/gone, Blackthorn is back, Minax is dead/gone, Minax is back. Who will be next?.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I have to say it's been depressing to see this thread and see folks tie themselves in knots attempting to resurrect the idea of a King British.

Granted certain recent events (they retconned the Shadowlords and now appear to have transformed the "Clockwork Exodus" boss into the real Exodus, forever non-dead....depressing) have set a bad, depressing example!

But still, everyone who thinks British is King again now, please read the fiction and note the most-obvious fact of all: The only one directly referred to as "King" is Blackthorn. Do a find in page search for the word King. The word appears about 7 times in the post that I can see and the only time it refers to British is early on when Heckles is servic....I mean serving them wine. In context it plainly is a term of courtesy to refer to someone who's been of a certain rank and stature. The other times it's always referring to Blackthorn quite directly. The phrase "King Blackthorn" occurs 4 times. If you saw the Test Center thing then you saw Lord British apparently endorse Blackthorn's reign, directly, twice that I caught.

For some reason the team refuses to let certain eras, such as Minax and Exodus, pass. Yet we players keep trying to compound this by also not allowing British's era to pass. That much they appear to have allowed us so, please, let us do so, finally.

-Galen's player

 

[Aurelius]

The extent of the 'knots' is .... none. My characters regard him as the King. Some others do not. And that is IT ....... nothing more, no knots, depression, or anything else required.... unless you think that others having an opinion is in some bizarre way a 'problem' to be corrected?

 

[NuSair]

Lord British was elected as King by the people. Blackthorn was not.

Regardless of a title, a King's (or really any rulers) power comes from the people they serve.

In my opinion, if it was put up to a vote, I would be surprised if Blackthorn would get 25% of the vote.

 

[Bobar]

http://www.uoguide.com/BNN:_Farewell_to_the_King
[/QUOTE]

I have seen references to Lord British abdicating and indeed I was referred to this thread in one instance in evidence. Having read it I see no reference at all to abdication. He states where he is going, he states he will not be coming back, he appoints someone to a position in the council, he states the Commander would now be a leader for all of Britannia. None of this constitutes abdication, without it he could change his mind and maybe he has!!!!

Another poster has stated that we do not have 'rules' for Kingship in Sosaria. True enough, But even in any reasonably civilised society surely the population would require some evidence that a King had abdicated. In R/L this is done by the Monarch SIGNING an Act of Abdication making it both official and legal AND providing actual evidence that he did so. If this is not done then any country would be in a position whereby any false claimant could say the King abdicated 'I heard him'. By and large this is the position we are in now, we argue back and forth because we have no solid written evidence. My argument is that without formal declaration and signature to the contrary British is still King.

 

[Capt. Lucky]

I wouldn't disagree with you on this one. Dupre was always my choice when this was being talked about. It would at least be sensible unlike British is dead/gone, British is back, Blackthorn is dead/gone, Blackthorn is back, Minax is dead/gone, Minax is back. Who will be next?.

I thought about this after Norrington brought it up. But I really like Dupre, I wouldn't want him king. Things never end up well for UO kings/queens

 

[Capt. Lucky]

Oh, I'd like to add... after reading this my head hurts. I'm gonna watch the Three Stooges or something to rest my brain.

 

[Captn Norrington]

I hadn't thought about the negative effects being king could have on Dupre....hmm....we definetely wouldn't want an evil Dupre or a dead Dupre.