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Poisoning and Potion Timers

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@Travis82
You should perhaps read my reply to Cetric GL as well as some of my other replies here to this particular suggestion, where I explain why this might cause more problems that it would solve.

There is still no reply from EA/M about this, and I'm still 99.9% convinced that if not by implementing timers for all of them(the most appropriate choice in my opinion, as I have argued in my replies here on this issue), then by some other means, potions should be further balanced.

To me, this issue has the same priority in game balancing matters as XFielding and a couple of other ones. It's definitely not above countering cheating and speed-hacking but still it warrants EA/M's attention and I'd very much like to see a response by now! :(
 

Logrus

UO Legend
VIP
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Stratics Legend
I've been following the thread, since the original posting.

The momentum was good and the ideas well thought out so I'd rather not derail it as seems to be the case whenever a dev posts.


I've also refrained from posting since there's a significant tendency for an idea, opinion or theory to be taken as what will be rather than idle speculation.

The difficulty with poisoning, and consumables in UO's current iteration is the interdependency.
Can't make and really significant changes to poisoning without looking at methods to getting rid of poison.

Anyway that'll get me side tracked.

Potion Timers: I really don't like them, much more of a DR fan, even though mentioning that makes the boards light up with screams of bloody murder.

And if i know somone can't drink a cure potion for 5 seconds, I'm guaranteed to poison them every 5 seconds.

Which is basically the game play formula. Find the most useful thing to do, and do it as much as possible.

At the same time, maybe poison could also be affected by DR. So if you are poisoned and you cure it by using a skill, you may have either a short immunity to poison, or the next poison will be less effective on you.

Of course that would have to go through at the same time, and its a large scope small window change. (That is, it impacts alot but people will only focus on a small area of the impact).


Similar to potion timers for some of the other things like stamina. On the small side it just allows people to swing at max speed, so ah small change. Take that over into fel, and a timer means you have a guaranteed block for a limited time. (One of the draft versions of the bard abilities had a constant stam drain, but that could essentially eliminate a player's ability to run around a facet)

Anyway its not that we aren't reading, following or considering, its quite helpful to read through and see balancing ideas that help to shape how stuff may be done. Its more of a I like where this is going and I dont want to throw a wrench in the works.
 
G

Gelf

Guest
i don't agree with putting a timer on cure pots(or limited time poison immunity)

ignoring pots for a moment, and if the idea is to pump up the poisoning skill. then perhaps making it a stand alone type skill, rather than a subskill (which is basically what it is), would work

for example.

you remove poisoning from the melee weapon specials entirely and replacing with other specials

make it so toggeling poison is done through the poison skill gump

make it so any melee weapon(no bows or throwing weaps) can have poison charges applied

poisoning skill would then give you the ability to use a third special(using the same poison lvl tables) in addition to the 2 weapon specials(assuming you have the appropriate skill in tactics)

this can also be done with mage weaps, if they have the poisoning skill, though they wouldn't have the weap specials.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@Logrus
Allow me to start by thanking you for your reply and then by pointing out two things, first at the plethora of options available to anyone to cure a poison, potions aside and second at the fact that the issue is not that poisoning needs a change, potions.
The talk about poisoning getting a boost is as you have put it, merely ideas.
It is not my main motive to increase the skill's effectiveness.

Diminishing Returns is something that could be over-come, a couple of posts above I made an effort at explaining how and why, unless EA/M plans to take it to a level where after certain consecutive uses potions simply do nothing. This will not be acceptable by players however, I am almost certain. As the target of a poisoner(and a poisoning skill fan too) I know I wouldn't stand for it.

And if someone reaches their DR limit, supposing EA/M uses DR to address the issue, and the cure potion has then no effect, I'm also guaranteed to poison them constantly while this applies!
That's because I've spent a lot of skill points simply because this is my prefered game style. Constantly poisoning someone to defeat them- Since we mention critical game-play aspects and choices.

The game-play formula as you present it("Find what works, spam it.") at the moment seems(and I put this in Bold as a statement that I'm sure this is not your intention) to promote gimp templates and further exclude certain game styles from any "serious" gaming which require dedication and investment. If that is the way Ultima Online works and how it presents poisoning I can live with it(as in, I will simply put poisoning on a soul-stone and utter "What a shame." opting to use instead the single most usefull template and items even if I do not enjoy playing them since I enjoy Ultima Online), however it still is not a reason for the lack of balance between items and skills in this particular case.

If poisoning itself on the other hand becomes affected by DR regardless whether potions are addressed or not, this way or the other, then it will only be that much more useless unless you would consider removing Mana cost, skill cost or compensate in some other way- Take a look at Gelf's reply, he makes certain noteworthy suggestions and I took the liberty of expanding on them as well in my own reply to his.
Personally I would drop poisoning if DR were to be implemented for it the way you describe.

Indeed, similar to Cure, there are many ways for a player to regain Stamina and the same arguements I offered above stand for all potions.
I will mention something else as well, the Sleep spell, in an effort to explain myself better. People found it usefull and it changed the whole aspect of combat, not necessarily in a bad way(all everyone asked for was the chance to resist it through skill investment). Ultima Online always needed a way to stop someone from "exiting a combat sequence"(for arguement's sake I'll use that term) at will, even at 0 Health. Wouldn't you think that when a target has received enough damage to be considered incapacitated the option to run away(unless they have invested in particular skills, item properties and abilities) only to heal up to full and return in seconds, should not be available? To take it a bit further in most games such is the norm.

I understand your view-points and reluctance to reply but I would very much like to be informed on the possibility of a change of any kind to help with the issue otherwise as things are at the moment I'm practically AND theoretically much better off without poisoning- And while this may be called my own decision it is, due to certain game mechanics which I am trying to point out as broken, forced on me, as a player whose style revolves around poisoning and assassination(both major elements of all modern MMORPGs).

@Gelf
I must say I'm also not fond of the idea of DR, not for potions, neither for poisoning. DR is a system that I do not find absurd or unreasonable for certain things, but this is not one of them in my eyes.

I would prefer instead of tampering with the poisoning skill itself, rather balance what we already have. If EA/M opted to implement your suggestions, still the problem would not be solved; Poisoning would be boosted but players would cure instantly if nothing else were to be changed. This is why I said I would refrain from touching poisoning itself. With a reasonable restrain on potions no other change should be necessary at all. I dare say that things would be balanced.

Having said that I find your idea very interesting indeed!

I would however add that if potions were not altered then poisons should not have charges(poison would simply wear off of weapons after X amount of minutes) and to further refine your suggestion:

1. A poisoner should simply apply the poison which would give their weapon certain charges that are constantly applied on the target until they run out, allowing the poisoner to use the weapon's other special moves at the same time.

2. A poisoner would have to toggle Infectious Strike through poisoning as you suggest, however the poisoner should be able to also toggle their weapon's special moves at the same time.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Logrus has the very similar take on this one as me.

Again, like I said, currently poisoning (especially infectious strike) is underpowered when your enemy has unlimited supply of Gcures yet retardedly overpowered when the opponent has no pots.

Infectious strike is like a mortal strike attack that last for over 100 second, AND doing 20 to 30 damage to you once every 5 second if not cured. If there's a gcure pot timer, I can guarantee you you will see poisoners running around everywhere.

You said players have tons of hethods to cure poison? So most common case against dexers (how I would do it)
1. LP(for 3 mana), He Gcure (Gcure cooldown) + Weapon hit and hit spell
2. LP(1.25s later for 6 mana), blocked bandage and a tick hit for 20 + weapon hit and hit spell.
3. LP(1.25s later), Gcure (cooldown again) + weapon hit and hit spell
4. LP(1.25s later), bandage (20 poison tick and cured) + weapon hit and hit spell
5. LP(1.25s later),Gcure
and so on...

And if you are a ninja your DP darts can make this even more stupid. All the dexer can really do is chug a gheal in between your unlimited Lethal Poison spam, each one of your DP is effectively 12 of his gcure. All the weapon hits and (just admit) the hit spell with a tick or 2 here and there, it's like near perma mortal lock. With only enough time for a gheal pot once every 10 seconds...

There are ways to have a chance to cure a high level poison. But the most powerful poison in game being spammed once every 1.25s at virtually no mana cost compare to other specials, a chance to cure is not good enough.

Again, either the poison spammability has to be reduced dramastically or a way to constantly reliably remove poison has to exist (Gcure).

Methods to curing outside Gcure pots is very limited on certain templates.
Assuming everything works as it, but Gcure has 10s timer.

1. All Dexers without chiv. They can cure 5s an attempt, or heal once every 4 second. No healing while curing. You can Lethal once every 1.25s, and DP once every 1 second on top of that with FU (sorry) dart. No way he can keep up.

2. Even if the dexer has chiv cleanse by fire vs Lethal Poison cure chance is pathetic. and if he gets lucky you instantly re-lethal him at virtually no mana cost.

3. Mage cure spell is pathetic vs lethal, Arch Cure is the only way to go which isnt exactly easy to get off when someone is also poking you at cap speed for 35+hit spell with fireballs + DP fuykia darts. Protection is a way to go but you cast extremely slow and you can run away after you start running. And only stupid stupid dexers die to mages in protection. And he finally get off an arch cure, you instantly re-lethal at virtually no mana cost.

4. Before you say anything about cleansing wind... healing thru Lethal Poison drops it down to a bit better than a mini heal at 500% the mana cost and unless hes in prot, no way he can get this spell off during real combat with all the AIs hit fireballs and LP chains you are giving him. He finally get it off and cured you instantly re-Lethal at virtally no mana cost.




Now you wouldnt want this game to turn into lethal poison spamming contest since people will eventually die unless they simply give up when they see any poisoner on screen, recall or run in straight line and gtfo.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Again poisoning is sensitive subject as it acts like an virtually everlasting mortal strike that does damage if it cannot be cured (or a way to guarantee some damage done with it~i think this is what ur trying to push... right?).

I think you want your poison to have some effects deal some damage before it was cured. However unlike other specials, a dexers can get up to 5-6 AIs in a row, and if it was healed, they are out of mana, fair trade. For lethal poison, with decent regen on your suit, infectious strike can be chained indefinitely. If you keep your unlimited LP spam AND you want it to guarantee some kind of damage done, makes it unbelievably powerful.

The semi-BALANCE we have rightnow and the counter to unlimited Lethal Poison spam is consuming Gcure pots at 1200% the cost of DP pots.

Therefore unless a real resolution is found, simply gave Gcure a timer will make poisoner quite possible the Gimplet of the Year (retro style). hehe I said retro, because poisoning used to be crazy... Mage only had to cast DP over and over the a dexer WILL die. And dexer poisoners, due to LP spamming and pots doesnt stack, after 10 to 20 LP spams and they run out of pots they lose. Period.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@WarUltima
I am not "pushing" for anything at all regarding poisoning itself, only about the potions, specifically I'm arguing they need timers. Even more specifically, cure potions. I've explained why in plenty of detail.

LP spams are not any more closer to what you call "Infinity" than all targets' cure potions' supplies. In fact poisoners are more at a disadvantage. Re-stocking cannot be done on the spot(I have never seen more than one poisoner quite possibly within the same server lines for ages and that particular one is myself so no looting DP off corpses), and one cannot afford to lose more than a handfull of DPs due to production costs and troubles. Besides this is not a thread about crafting issues.

1200% the cost of DP? Have you checked prices and compared failure rates at creating DP?.. There is no balance currently. There is no guaranteed damage as there are many ways to cure or block poisons. What is guaranteed is that poisons will get cured as if they never were applied, rendering the skill useless.

I still do not see how timers would be un-balanced. Using all and any other available means to cure ON TOP of potions -- As even with a timer they'll still be a counter just like GHeals have been after they got their timers -- is not sufficient in your opinion after all that has been mentioned in this thread?.. :confused:

"Since LP can be spammed and potions do not stack."..? What do you mean? You lost me there, does that have anything to do with, well, anything? Please point that out to me. It's not like cure potions can't be spammed either.

Also, no template is "helpless" against poisons, with or without potions.. Check my lists of counter-measures.. And honestly, 10-20 LP spams? Players carry on them more than 50 each of Cures, Heals and Refreshes. Today I looted as much off a single corpse! Seems like you're thinking way ahead, claiming you wrapped this up. rolleyes:
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wait you never played back when potions didn't used to stack? I see it now.

You have no clue how poisoners used to ruin PvP that's not only for dexers only, noxmage used to destory people in pvp just by casting DP over and over.

Pots didn't stack, you only have 125 items split that between weapons armors exp pots gcures gheals refreshes,gstr, gdex... what don't you understand? 1 item which means dp costs 12 items in someones backpacks to counter. 1200% of the item counts. Nox mages didn't even have to carry a single poison pot.

Its my fault for mistaken you as a vet player. My bad there. Also you don't seem to have knowledge of the diffculty of curing lethal poison without pots. Your problem lied exactly what you said "you don't want anything to happen to your poisoning skill, you just want cures to get nerfed period".

I mentioned how poisoning USED to be OPed. Try this go to a bank and drag 1cure at a time for 70 times and 20 times for heals and 20 times for freshes, 5 times for str and 5 times for dex waitpackpack is full, put back some cures (drag 20 times) and get some aids. (You pump them off kegs usually). So you got a pack half full of cures that will get mitigated by 5 dp pot and you have to restock again or you simply don't stand a chance against noxxors.

People really only started to be able to carry 50+ in each pots since pots were made stackable. Again you want each time you spend 3 mana people couldn't cure for 10 sec. And you said LP isn't spammable? I just SSed poisoning on to my sampire and spammed 31 lethal poison in a row on my golem (btw I have a uoa macro to reapply dp) if doing 30+ special in a row at 1.25s a pop I don't know what's "spammable" to you... 100 in a row?
 
C

chuckoatl

Guest
I cant read this whole thread (sicklover is too longwinded) but here is my proposed fix for poisoning.

make level 1,2, and 3 poisoning exactly like they are now
make level 4,5 like strangle, and uncurable. make the ticks start off slow and get closer together until it wears off. Perhaps an apple can remove it, but then you can reapply the LP. At least this would make my 2 accounts with GM poisoning on stones somewhat usable again.
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@WarUltima
Where should I begin addressing your last gem of a reply?

Let me try. For the record, and not to brag but : I've been on the game for a good 10 years of continuous play ever since I created a character on Chesapeake since there were only 3 servers then.. My account(which I have not bought off another player) has an age of 136 months but some of those it was idling- Hence me saying "10 years" to be fair. To be honest, take off the last 5-6 months during which I also lost my house as well.

As matter of fact I only began using potions around when AOS launched while my first ever time to see anyone using a potion was an archer back when you could drink one while using a bow. I seem to remember that back then drinking one spawned particles around the player who drunk it.

I hope I've satisfied your account age-based/Stratics posts-based Inferiority/Superiority Complexes? .. Or should I pass a polygraph test too?

I couldn't care less what applied then, in relation to what applies now. One's in the past, the other's in the present. 80% of your post is gibberish concerning a past situation which somehow apparently still up-sets you and somehow, it appears to be my fault in your mind.

I have perfect knowledge of the "difficulty" to cure LP without potions, last time I sparred with my guild-mates(a couple of nights ago) no-one had any difficulty dealing with it. From Para-Blow or Disarm then Cure to simply relying on DCI or Parrying, they were fine, the whole lot, even melee templates. If it was a field fight they'd just spam cures, do you see the issue? They didn't even require me not to spam LP, does that show you anything maybe? One is personal skill combined with character skill, the other is a macro mushing routine completely replacing the first method, completely negating a skill, at zero cost, instantly, continuously, without personal skill.
It's not like I haven't fought a poisoner ever before myself. All I did was spam Armour Ignore and mush my DrinkGCure macro. That's what they did too, it was sort of comical. :)

I said I would not suggest that anything changes in regards to poisoning GETTING BOOSTED(you seem to think I said the opposite). Carefull with your assumptions... Hopefully your next reply won't include ideas on lowering poisoning's efficiency even more due to some obscure 90's game mechanic regarding poisons having no charges that still pisses you off.

I do not want poisoning to be immune for 10" against all curing methods. I want potions to have a timer(which by the way I have not defined as a number in my posts) and I've backed up my claims and presented my arguements fine while you seem to be having personal issues doing the same in claiming I'm wrong. What is your MAJOR "MALFUNCTION"?
Also I never said poisoning isn't spammable, please point out where you believe I did and I will stand corrected about that, otherwise do not put words in my mouth.

By the way, so are potions. That's the problem, they don't need to be because they completely negate the skill while there are other just as efficient ways to cure. Cure potions not having timers is pure redundancy which on top of that causes a severe problem.

I think you're only here to brag about your knowledge on UO's history regarding weight capacity and to complain about potions not having being stackable in the past(?!) for some obscure reason.

Ease off the trigger, or I might regrettably have to add you to my Ignore List to prevent this thread from getting derrailed by trolling attempts. I'll go on with your arguements.

All targets now carry large amounts of potions however and it is not one's fault if their targets come into battle un-prepared so the arguement that without potions poisoning is too strong a skill is false, I never even proposed that potions should be removed. Also why do you insist on neglecting all the other ways to cure? It's like you pretend there only are cure potions and that makes me think you simply are too based on them and too biased about them.

Infectious Strike WOULD HAVE BEEN like a Mortal Wound with the duration and damage you mention if it WERE NOT CURABLE AT ALL, potions or not. An increase in templates with poisoning might be observed but that would only be because the templates using that skill would not be useless any longer. The rest of the players would simply have to invest more into ways to block poisons and cure them through skills and use potions as a secondary method, not the other way around. And their tactics would be adjusted to the changes within a week, exactly as long as it took us all to adjust to GHeals having timers.

Your examples here are not valid and even take into consideration a factor that is irrelevant to poisoning and potions and their issues, a factor that is available to both parties as well by the way; Spell Effect. You're using in your example a melee template without parrying and with only healing through bandages and potions. While parrying is also a factor available to both parties I'll not exclude it in my counter-arguement as it IS a way to block poisoning.

To clarify you've left out the chances to miss hits in chaining LP, the chances to block the special move with a shield, the tactic of evading your opponent through personal skill as your timers for bandages and potions cool down(why would you be standing ALL THE TIME next to a character with higher DPS even as a warrior, eludes me) and the very real fact that there is no believable example of a real fight without the melee templates involved having, on top of healing and potions, a skill such as Bushido(Evasion, Confidence), Chiv(Cleanse, Heal), Necro(SS, Curse Weapon along with Vampire Form), Spellweave(Gift Of Renewal), even Mysticism and so on, most of which can open up options against poisons.

Now, in case you've forgotten, having poisoning will probably mean the poisoner has forfeited healing methods or magic resistance or parrying, maybe has forfeited bushido or ninjitsu and has really no true offense or defense other than weapons' special moves. Use these to your advantage accordingly. And if both parties are poisoners, well it's a close match and the RNG will decide, nothing wrong there.

Darts and Shuriken only do DP which can be completely BLOCKED(PETALS, YET ANOTHER ITEM) and far more easily cured than LP. Also as one is ranged and the other is for close-quarters it would be confusing knowing all the time which to use against a person who is constantly on and off one's back. Not to mention they can be evaded, blocked and they can also miss, and that they are based on NINJITSU, not poisoning, as well as failing to poison the target every time. Again, please realize that the amount of cure potions utilized is of no importance- I've never, ever personally had a fight during which my opponent ran out of cures unless they already were fighting and forgot to re-stock their 60s(80s) of cures. Not to mention the fact that it often only takes 1-2 or 3 cure potions from what I've observed on myself against another poisoner. I'm the one retreating for a re-stock more often than not.

What's with bringing Spell Effect in, again? It is completely irrelevant, any and all weapons' special moves which are by the way BETTER than Infectious Strike as it is now(Bleed, Mortal Wound) can be "accompanied" by a spell effect present on a weapon, what exactly is your issue with that I can't understand. And you should say, with only enough time for a GHeal every 10", during which 10" you use your skills to stay alive, don't you? Or will you now argue GHeals should also be spammed?

You mention mana cost, I'll mention INfectious Strike's pre-requisites. I hope you are not too stubborn to see where I'm going, so I won't elaborate. I agree a CHANCE to cure is not enough(that would be skills) and that a reliable way to cure is needed, but 1) That reliable "way"(100% chance) should not be spammable and 2) Having changed that, the CHANCE to cure(skills) could be slightly adjusted by EA/M to balance this further.


About the list of possible scenarios you mention :

1. What is a melee template doing without parrying, DCI, disarm, knowledge of evasion and complementary melee skills? They can cure with a 5" attempt and a X" attempt which would be the potion, and heal through a 4" attempt(large amount) and a 10" attempt(potion). With the first few things I mention, the melee template even as hard-core as not having complementary skills is pretty safe otherwise you're doing something wrong. If I can survive against a poisoner WITHOUT parrying, WITHOUT healing, WITHOUT complementary skills against poisoning(except Unicorn Form which I would not use against an LPer either way) and just with potions(with GHeals HAVING a timer, I stress that) then you can do a lot better as a warrior without poisoning and ninjitsu against a poisoner.

2. Not true. Raise your skill, raise your Karma. Don't play this with the 50-60 Chiv a lot of cheap templates out there use. Don't down-play miss chances, parry chances ETC.

3. Again this is on the player's own skills to counter, along with parry and miss chances. Arch Cure will, at worse, take 3 efforts before curing LP. I have just witnessed this over and over(as if my years of PVP weren't enough for me) during my last sparring session with my guild-mates. Disarm and Para-Blow also greatly help if the mage is not using a weapon. 35 per hit? That's using Armour Ignore, irrelevant to poisoning. And yet again, you mention spell effect. I'll ignore this from now on. The fuykia and shuriken I've explained numerous times, are on one hand almost impossible to use as a proper PVP method and quite useless at it as well. Just use an orange petal, will you?
For the rest about this mage arguement, check what I've said about your pure warrior arguement, about the timers and what you can do in-between.

4. You do not get Cleansing Winds off DURING combat, but before entering it. Use your mind please? You plan to fight someone you know will be based on DPS and poisoning, you get your guards up prior to the fight. You then base it all on your complementary skills which I've mentioned above, and possibly magery since that's the No. 1 choice for mystics. I am SO ignoring the AI/Spell Effect arguement, forgive me but it has nothing to do with these issues. And you're still down-playing miss chances, wrestling's disarm, parry chances and personal evasion skills plus the potion timers. And what's with the mana costs, not like ANY WELL-BUILT TEMPLATE EVER RUNS OUT THESE DAYS. BE HONEST. Direct comparison of a full mana dump of 150 Mana worth of LP and 150 Mana worth of a mystic's spells is ridiculously obviously pointing out the winner in damage out-put and over-all results-for-cost. Get serious.
Actually compare ALMOST ANYTHING in the game of equal Mana pool amounts, one being LP and the other ANYTHING YOU WISH and LP will rate second to that, always, unless you would like to mention special moves such as Defense Mastery!?

And you know why? Because ANY AND ALL TEMPLATES CAN SPAM CURE POTIONS and if those had TIMERS like heal potions THEN Infect would rate as well as Bleed and Mortal WITHOUT replacing them and WITHOUT being over-powered and would offer an alternative to them. It would just become USEFULL.

I'm done explaining this to you, this has reached a point where if you refuse to see certain things you're only too biased and I'm starting to believe you do play some sort of template with inadequate skill investment in chivalry and inability to parry, down-playing your template's strengths against a poisoner by a great deal or simply being unable to grasp a few basic concepts about your own template. If that template HAPPENS to be based on archery(I wouldn't be surprised) it's not poisoning's fault that you sacrificed defense for range and potions having timers are irrelevant to that. Your perspective on the issue of potions and poisoning is too personal.

@Chuckoatl
Sounds like a possible alternative to me! :) As for being long-winded, well, would you rather have me saying "POSNING ****N SUX FIX PLZZZ11!!?" ;D It might have worked better as observed in the case of Bards' abilities, to be honest.. And that's a stab, I admit it- And I'll leave it at that.

I would also like to make a mental(digital?) note : To counter Poison Fields coming from a poisoner caster template one only needs to have orange petals, not even Magic Resist. I could also add a few more counters but it's pointless, I've made enough references to those. Furthermore a poisoner caster's Poison spell can be directly resisted and its effectiveness reduced through clever play and good timing and again, petals, assuming one would refuse to resort to anything else out of personal choice(?).
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I feel this debate has reached a point where any further discussion would only incite personal attacks or slowly take the thread off topic. I have also deduced that any usefull information EA/M could extract from this thread, has been extracted and taken dul(-l)y into consideration. :) The only thing remaining to do is run a Poll, something I'll get on top of shortly, but that will be all.

I personally have no intention of re-kindling this conversation at the moment only to argue about other players' personal strategies(or the lack there-of), subjective opinions and problems against, or on, poisoners in the game.

In other words it is un-likely I will be replying or bumping this thread any more. Everything I had to say is here(and IMHO my arguements are a long way from being tackled yet and this issue is not a personal of mine but is in fact a broken part of the game ), albeit in quite lengthy posts, but then again there was a lot to be said.

I planned to add two things, a direct comparison of GHeals and GCures and their functions and purposes in regard to damage and the state of being infected by poison and my final take on DRs as particularly that system I believe would further de-stabilize the game for whatever purposes it could possibly be implemented.

I refrain from posting about the first as I have already explained the core of why ultimately being against timers on potions leads to supporting removing the timers on GHeals as well as for example on Enchanted Apples. In fact these are the same issues more or less. Knowing how this would greatly un-balance the game, it is reasonable to use it as an arguement towards implementing timers on all potions as a solution to a problem I've clearly pointed out for what it is. Instead I'll sum up my arguements against DRs as I did in a similar thread started by another poster and I'll rest my case.

My final thoughts remain that timers are the best first step towards balancing NOT items dependency but CONSUMABLES dependency where needed, as in where a DrinkGCure macro completely negates 100.0 skill points', mana and poison potions' investment in this case- Even as in where a Total Refresh macro completely negates all other means of replenishing Stamina and all efforts, significance and points of attacking a target's Stamina and even as in where DEX/STR macros render 50% of the Curse, Feeble Mind, Clumsy and Weaken spells useless.

If it was up to me I'd suggest adding timers to Trap Boxes as well(or changing self-inflicted damage so that it does not remove negative effects and states such as Paralyse or Evil Omen), change Evil Omen so that it itself can be resisted and change Energy Fields and Stone Walls so that at their connecting points they always leave enough space for the target to pass through. *Hint about my next discussion topic!*

Also while certain very good ideas towards boosting poisoning were brought up my intentions are not to grant poisoning a new ability or to increase its potency making it harder to cure. This is clearly a thread primarily about potions breaking parts of the game, nothing else. No personal agenda. I too use SOLELY potions to stay alive, to cure and to fill up my stamina.

Here's my take on DR without any further ado :

Diminishing Returns is something that could be over-come, unless EA/M plans to take it to a level where after certain consecutive uses potions simply do nothing. This will not be acceptable by players however.

If someone reaches their DR "limit", supposing EA/M uses DR to address the issue, and the cure potion has then no effect, I'm also guaranteed to poison them constantly while this applies!

No matter how difficult you make it for a poison to be cured(unless it is unreasonably hard therefore making poisoning OPed), it WILL eventually be cured, and as this works now, "Eventually" translates into "Instantly". This is because the time it will take to "eventually" be cured by constantly drinking potions through macro-mushing, will be neglectible as there would be no timers.

Assuming EA/M would allow curing the most potent poison through potions alone, it would still occur fast enough. And EA/M would, in this case, allow even for more than just slight chances to cure the strongest poison through potions alone because I said above : If they made it too hard to cure through potions alone poisoning would be deemed OPed.

Then of course you'd have to face DRs applied to poisoners as well, and however potions work at THAT point, poisoning will be completely useless for what it requires and what it delivers.

I see DRs as an All-Or-Nothing, last resort move that will have to affect EVERYTHING to a point of rendering all affected game assets COMPLETELY useless at a corresponding point(assuming I would be using 1 GCure for 1 Infect, both assets would at the same time(and after the same number of uses) end up being COMPLETELY useless), from merely consuming food to every single spell and ability in the game, with VERY FEW exceptions. Where DRs are applied I am certain a better solution could be found by thorough examination of the issue.

Last but not least, as a poisoner would spam Infect whereas their target would have more than a couple of counters, the poisoner would be reaching their "limit" much faster than the other person would reach their potion limit even if we take into account that 1 LP equals at worst(and not in theory but in reality) 3 GCures.

It is no solution IMHO.
 

dukarlo

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Not sure if anyone mentioned this(this thread is very long) but I think stackabale potions really hurt poisoners. Its very simple to run around with ridiculous numbers of potions nowadays. Stackable potions may have been nice for alchemists but they definately didnt help the noxer.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Not sure if anyone mentioned this(this thread is very long) but I think stackabale potions really hurt poisoners. Its very simple to run around with ridiculous numbers of potions nowadays. Stackable potions may have been nice for alchemists but they definately didnt help the noxer.
This is indeed the reason why I mentioned and what OP seems to ignore.

@OP
Actually I assumed that the OP played thru the era, since he apperently have zero clue about how "during that time" noxxor became very ********. And since he has that whole my acct is older so I am better syndrome I shouldn't be telling him that his acct is still about 16mo "younger".

And it's especially funny when you want to rent on skill this and skill that when noxxor is nothing but Bleed, Disarm, LP, LP, LP, LP, LP, Bleed Disarm... I really do not see how LP spamming with bleed AND disarm blocking bandage and make you always hit anything superior.

And your LP is easy to cure when the exact chance to cure with cure spell is just above 30%? What you running around with some cheap low skill noxxor with like 60 skills or something? so you can only DP someone and not LP them?

Again back when I rock a noxxor, I dominated PvP. People can only carry limited amount of pots (again take them 1200% extra upkeep to keep me away from straight up destorying them) and there was no auto corpse loot. And I didnt do any of your "leet noxxor combo" I did nothing but disarm bleed and LP cycle, people run out of Gcure, I already won, there only option at this point is run unflag, go home and pump out 50 more individual gcure pots from one of their gcure stack.

If you have never experienced thru that era please dont say it was ok. Also mages can simply cast DP over and over, they slowly wear down ALL DEXERS.

And it's very stupid to require alchemy to be able to counter noxxor (noxxor only really sunk 80 points in poisoning not like they dedicated the entire template). It's like gimp tamers telling people to pick up music + peace to PvP.

No one is bragging about history but your lacking in understanding the whole skill. Also give cures a timer and you just royally ****ed the entire dexer community against poison spamming mages if they dont have 4/6 chiv cleanse by fire. I mean I dont care if you want to revive noxxor or simply overpowering it because YOU play one, but to add a timer to cures will hurt dexers more than mages as poison is mage's only mean to block healing and you just gave them a reason to start chaining poison over and over AGAIN.

Just use your head, before you go on and break the game even further. You dont intend to "break the game" just so you can spam LP and win right?
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
"It's very simple to run around with ridiculous numbers of potions nowadays." , "This is indeed the reason why I mentioned and what OP seems to ignore."
- As in, nowadays, ridiculous numbers of Cures. Get it?


"Actually I assumed that the OP played thru the era, since he apperently have zero clue about how "during that time" noxxor became very ********."
- I do not care about "Then" but "Now". Get it straight into your narrow, thick ******** of a skull.


I have no account age issues, you brought that up and I thought I'd "bite". Nice try though. My classification of your mental case is quite accurate I see. And I do not care if your account is older either.


Again I'm not discussing combat tactics here. I'm discussing an issue about potions and how it also affects poisoning.


Also my poisoning is at GM level. This is easy to verify, look for my character on MyUO. Its name is on my signature, blaze-red hair, Shroud Of The Condemned, holding a cleaver, Elf, it's on Europa and is red.


The numerical chance does not concern me, what concerns me is my observations on the field. Which happen to be the same thing a lot of people observe. Shove your numerical values.



Srsly? D0minat3D PEEEVEEEEPEEE? :gun: RLY?..
Who cares about your past glories..? Why do you bring up the past? I don't care enough to say whether it was okay or not, this thread is not about the past. Oh and people did nothing but cure through potions against it? Thanks for proving my point and keep in mind I have already said I'd have no issues with curing through skills becoming easier if timers are implemented either. Are you blind or can't you read?


So what if you in particular are getting your ass kicked by a poisoner mage? :sad3: Use petals. Get Vampire Form. Get Magic Resistance. I won't go on, you're pathetic at PVP apparently and this is why you're stuck at older times mentally. What else are you reminiscent about? War hammers destroying armour in 1 shot?.. Parry Vs Parry lasting 3 hours? GTFO.


I never even said one should require alchemy for anything. I said it was an idea, and I was against forcing one to take up a skill because I took up a skill. I also said it could be a nice way to give potions a boost in fact. You seriously need to learn how to read(and write, for the matter).


"No one is bragging about history but you're lacking in understanding the whole skill."
Okay you know what, you're probably ********, you've been going on and on and on about how you rocked back then, how poisoning rocked, how I wasn't there to see you in your glory, yadda-yadda.. And then you come up with THAT?
So, you're either that or a morron. I understand THAT perfectly and am putting you on Ignore. Oh and those warriors(including other poisoners) can pick up a lot of methods to counter poisoners, I've pointed that out time and again here. You're just too.. Never mind. *Puts WarUltima on Ignore*


I'm sooo done with this thread, it's already going to **** because of this guy. Someone give him candy or something, ASAP. rolleyes:
Maybe you WarUltima, are the same person in the game who resorts to racial and sexual slur every time they see my character on screen like yesterday again(and can only fight on an XField/Tamer, IF then, as seen yesterday). rolleyes: If that's the case it would be funny.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Sigh another them kiddies. What they want to see is anything but a different opinion nor do they care about true balance. Pack your sorry LP spamming dexer and hide.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
"It's very simple to run around with ridiculous numbers of potions nowadays." , "This is indeed the reason why I mentioned and what OP seems to ignore."
- As in, nowadays, ridiculous numbers of Cures. Get it?


"Actually I assumed that the OP played thru the era, since he apperently have zero clue about how "during that time" noxxor became very ********."
- I do not care about "Then" but "Now". Get it straight into your narrow, thick ******** of a skull.


I have no account age issues, you brought that up and I thought I'd "bite". Nice try though. My classification of your mental case is quite accurate I see. And I do not care if your account is older either.


Again I'm not discussing combat tactics here. I'm discussing an issue about potions and how it also affects poisoning.


Also my poisoning is at GM level. This is easy to verify, look for my character on MyUO. Its name is on my signature, blaze-red hair, Shroud Of The Condemned, holding a cleaver, Elf, it's on Europa and is red.


The numerical chance does not concern me, what concerns me is my observations on the field. Which happen to be the same thing a lot of people observe. Shove your numerical values.



Srsly? D0minat3D PEEEVEEEEPEEE? :gun: RLY?..
Who cares about your past glories..? Why do you bring up the past? I don't care enough to say whether it was okay or not, this thread is not about the past. Oh and people did nothing but cure through potions against it? Thanks for proving my point and keep in mind I have already said I'd have no issues with curing through skills becoming easier if timers are implemented either. Are you blind or can't you read?


So what if you in particular are getting your ass kicked by a poisoner mage? :sad3: Use petals. Get Vampire Form. Get Magic Resistance. I won't go on, you're pathetic at PVP apparently and this is why you're stuck at older times mentally. What else are you reminiscent about? War hammers destroying armour in 1 shot?.. Parry Vs Parry lasting 3 hours? GTFO.


I never even said one should require alchemy for anything. I said it was an idea, and I was against forcing one to take up a skill because I took up a skill. I also said it could be a nice way to give potions a boost in fact. You seriously need to learn how to read(and write, for the matter).


"No one is bragging about history but you're lacking in understanding the whole skill."
Okay you know what, you're probably ********, you've been going on and on and on about how you rocked back then, how poisoning rocked, how I wasn't there to see you in your glory, yadda-yadda.. And then you come up with THAT?
So, you're either that or a morron. I understand THAT perfectly and am putting you on Ignore. Oh and those warriors(including other poisoners) can pick up a lot of methods to counter poisoners, I've pointed that out time and again here. You're just too.. Never mind. *Puts WarUltima on Ignore*


I'm sooo done with this thread, it's already going to **** because of this guy. Someone give him candy or something, ASAP. rolleyes:
Maybe you WarUltima, are the same person in the game who resorts to racial and sexual slur every time they see my character on screen like yesterday again(and can only fight on an XField/Tamer, IF then, as seen yesterday). rolleyes: If that's the case it would be funny.

is it just me, or is this guys stuff terribly hard to read and follow? try using the quote button
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I should do that more often, true. Just habbit. But ignore that last post of mine, it was directly related to WarUltima's last reply. Honestly I do not know why sometimes when I hit "Edit", then "Save", all text gets extra spacing or tends to stick together.. When that happens it sometimes appears like I'm talking about 4 different things in one sentence.

Other than that, excuse my English, syntax or bad grammar. It's not my native language. :)
 

Violence

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I made these posts lengthy, thinking it would be better than summing it all up into a couple of sentences that would make me look like I'm whining. Besides I felt the issue required a thorough looking-into. Potions and generally consumables aren't a small topic, more so in their relation to skills.

So yeah, I suppose one could make themselves a cup of coffee or tea and read through at their leisure. :)

First language's Greek.. Hildebrand, it's already too hot for my taste here. I'd rather be somewhere in the UK! :)
 
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