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Katrena

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Would you please explain what you mean by the picture of Attributes and Wasted 120 scroll comment. I’ve read your posts about Cu training, but I’m just not sure what you are saying to stop doing.

Thanks
 

Draza

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Yes, by not going to 700 str, you lower your pets max damage(for pets that can go to 700 str, and infact i would accept a lower than 150 dex to achieve higher str)
 

Pawain

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Yes that is a Cu. It and all other pets need max strength unless you are doing something very specific. This was built AI/ chiv. The non max strength reduces the basic damage, AI and chiv damage.
Probably so much that a 700 strength pet with no scrolls would do more damage.

I also saw a white Cu on Atlantic with 37 fire resist. The guy wanted 25 mil for it. No scrolls the resists were at cap.
 

Cork

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Yes that is a Cu. It and all other pets need max strength unless you are doing something very specific. This was built AI/ chiv. The non max strength reduces the basic damage, AI and chiv damage.
Probably so much that a 700 strength pet with no scrolls would do more damage.

I also saw a white Cu on Atlantic with 37 fire resist. The guy wanted 25 mil for it. No scrolls the resists were at cap.
While I agree with you I have to say people play the way they want. And no amount of pointing it out will change this. I have been called a pretentious a-hole on more than one occasion for pointing out messed up pets like this. So now I just silently judge from behind my keyboard lol. The sad part is that the pet you are showing here is one of the least messed up pets I've seen people with lately. I cringe at a lot of the pets I see people trying to sell on Atlantic for hundreds of millions of gold that are far worse than this one.
 

Draza

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Someone was selling a blaze on atl with 625 str and 500 int, they stopoed spamming chat when i asked about it.
 

King Greg

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700 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 361.25% Base Damage
370 Int, 30 MR, 120 med, 120 focus = 4.25 MPS

662 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 349.85% Base Damage
462 Int, 30 MR, 120 MEd, 120 Focus = 4.5 Mps

So 3% Drop in Base damage for ~6% More Mana Regeneration.
 

Katrena

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700 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 361.25% Base Damage
370 Int, 30 MR, 120 med, 120 focus = 4.25 MPS

662 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 349.85% Base Damage
462 Int, 30 MR, 120 MEd, 120 Focus = 4.5 Mps

So 3% Drop in Base damage for ~6% More Mana Regeneration.
Are the Base Damage figures you’re using from an online Pet Calculator? I’m trying to understand how all of the figures are calculated and the UO-CAH Pet Damage Calculator is not giving me the type of Base Damage you reference. With their Modified Base Damage, there seems to be no change over 675 strength at 80% resist.

Thanks
 

Pawain

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700 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 361.25% Base Damage
370 Int, 30 MR, 120 med, 120 focus = 4.25 MPS

662 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 349.85% Base Damage
462 Int, 30 MR, 120 MEd, 120 Focus = 4.5 Mps

So 3% Drop in Base damage for ~6% More Mana Regeneration.
Lets look at that Mana regen. .25 more mana per second. .25 x 60 = 15 mana per minute. 15 x 10 = 150.

A significant reduction in ALL Damage to get 150 mana in 10 minutes. (pet was AI/Chiv)
 

Pawain

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The sad part is that the pet you are showing here is one of the least messed up pets I've seen people with lately.
And some of those pets are Banes and Dreadmares!!!! Luckily it is difficult to mess up WWs.
 

Lord Frodo

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Are the Base Damage figures you’re using from an online Pet Calculator? I’m trying to understand how all of the figures are calculated and the UO-CAH Pet Damage Calculator is not giving me the type of Base Damage you reference. With their Modified Base Damage, there seems to be no change over 675 strength at 80% resist.

Thanks
Pet Damage Calculator | uo-cah.com
 

Lord Frodo

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700 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 361.25% Base Damage
370 Int, 30 MR, 120 med, 120 focus = 4.25 MPS

662 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 349.85% Base Damage
462 Int, 30 MR, 120 MEd, 120 Focus = 4.5 Mps

So 3% Drop in Base damage for ~6% More Mana Regeneration.
And the Strength gives the vast majority of that damage and the 120s add a little. Considering the cost it is almost debatable that they are worth it.
 

Pawain

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@Katrena I am always fiddling with my archers Strength vs Intel. I have decided to find the spot where the min and max have a smaller difference. Seems like more strength makes the range larger. So I prefer more intel so I can use AI more. But that is a toon with much lower cap values.

I have a feeling the Ks would recommend max str on pets. Their Chiv Nightmare builder does not deliberate Str vs Intel. They set them to 700 Str. AI/Chiv NM Their Magery NM builder also has 700 Str.

The calculator does show the 120 Chiv scroll really makes a difference. Luckily the 120 scrolls for magics other than magery are relatively cheap.

Players have given me pets with Str in the 600 to 650 range. I can tell the difference when fighting with them. Whether the calculator can or not.
 

Pawain

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A player who was quitting the game gave me this Dog. Goo/AI/Chiv. 115 melee scrolls 120 Chiv. It has no HP regen or stam regen.
(I only used it at balrons and ran consume so the HP never got low enough to change the Stamina)

1588649398267.png

I had them give it to my pet holder tamer. I did not look at its lore. I decided to use it to get Lord on that toon at the Balrons.
I fight balrons with dogs so much I can tell what scrolls a pet has by the time it takes to kill the normals and paragons.. (I die a lot when I play so I need my Fame back) After a few kills I wondered why this dog was so slow at killing them. I figured it was due to my toon somehow so I just kept using the dog. About a year after I got it I finally looked at the lore screen. UGH. Now I use a AI/Disco dog with 700 Strength and it kills faster. This toon has only fought Balrons. He was my gardner.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

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700 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 361.25% Base Damage
370 Int, 30 MR, 120 med, 120 focus = 4.25 MPS

662 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 349.85% Base Damage
462 Int, 30 MR, 120 MEd, 120 Focus = 4.5 Mps

So 3% Drop in Base damage for ~6% More Mana Regeneration.
Then the damage is further modified by EoO, Divine Fury, Con Wep, Bless, or Irresistibly Tasty Treats. Making the damage difference even larger between the two.
For those that don't know what an Irresistibly Tasty Treat is...
I Tasty Treat.PNG
 
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King Greg

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Lets look at that Mana regen. .25 more mana per second. .25 x 60 = 15 mana per minute. 15 x 10 = 150.

A significant reduction in ALL Damage to get 150 mana in 10 minutes. (pet was AI/Chiv)
All I'm doing is breaking down the math So some players can understand and make a decision based on more than just. "this pet kills faster/slower"

3% Less total damage for ~ 3 more armor ignores over 10 minutes. Higher the resists and Block chance of the target, the more those 3 armor ignores will matter.

Lower the resists and block chance the less of a difference it will make.
 

Pawain

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All I'm doing is breaking down the math So some players can understand and make a decision based on more than just. "this pet kills faster/slower"

3% Less total damage for ~ 3 more armor ignores over 10 minutes. Higher the resists and Block chance of the target, the more those 3 armor ignores will matter.

Lower the resists and block chance the less of a difference it will make.
I agree with you. Thanks for the numbers. I just wanted to show how small the mana regen for 90 intel is. 150 mana in 10 minutes.

Intel is cheap but set str to max, then set intel to max.

Then the damage is further modified by EoO, Divine Fury, Con Wep, Bless, or Irresistibly Tasty Treats. Making the damage difference even larger between the two.
120 Magery 120 intel a bless makes 700 str turn into 790 str! For a decent amount of time.
 

King Greg

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Then the damage is further modified by EoO, Divine Fury, Con Wep, Bless, or Irresistibly Tasty Treats. Making the damage difference even larger between the two.
For those that don't know what an Irresistibly Tasty Treat is...
View attachment 108088
If 700 str is 100 damage * 1.10*1.86*1.087 (Bonus from the stat increase)
662 str is 97 Damage*1.10*1.86*1.085(Bonus from the stat increase)

222 vs 215 Modified.

Still a 3% Difference in the Base damage even modified at 662 str vs 700.
 

King Greg

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I agree with you. Thanks for the numbers. I just wanted to show how small the mana regen for 90 intel is. 150 mana in 10 minutes.

Intel is cheap but set str to max, then set intel to max.



120 Magery 120 intel a bless makes 700 str turn into 790 str! For a decent amount of time.
Yeah I did some long drawn out math that showed that against a creature with 50% chance to hit with 70's in resists the 662 Pet should do more damage by the end of a 10 minute fight, but it was ~.5% So completely irrelevant.
The lower the monsters resists go, and the higher the chance to hit, the difference caps out at 3%

Lower chance to hit, higher resists. 3 extra armor ignores, 1 more eo1 compensated for the lower base damage.
Lower resists and higher chance to hit, armor ignores meant diddly squat.

In the end you may as well go 700 Strength.
 

Pawain

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We could go back and forth more on this if pets had better AI. I mentioned my archer and str vs Int. I can use the mana to produce higher damage by choosing the best use for it.
Pets decisions are based on RNG. If there is a crowd the pet may decide to use Holy Light. They may decide to cast EoO and two hits later they may decide to cast it again and turn it off. Consecrate for them only lasts one hit.
Speculating on how pets are going to use mana may not be close to what they actually do.

A group of pets with high mana pools can do a lot of damage in a short if they use the right spells at the right time.

We have evolved to using a smaller mana pool because we saw that no matter how high the starting mana is, in a long fight the pet is relying on Mana regen in a very short period. You cant predict if that 150 mana over 10 mins would have been used for more damage. The pet may have used it on smaller damage spells or abilities.

On some magics or pet types, I sometimes wonder if it would be better if the pet concentrated on lower cost damagers rather than build up 100 mana to use on a more expensive spell or ability that does less damage.

We just have to let the pets fight in different encounters over and over and time them to get real UO results and see what is really the best way to build our pets. I think we have discovered the best base build for a generic pet to allow the pet to do the most damage if it happens to make the best choices.
 

Lord Frodo

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700 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 361.25% Base Damage
370 Int, 30 MR, 120 med, 120 focus = 4.25 MPS

662 Strength, 120 Tactics, 120 anatomy = 349.85% Base Damage
462 Int, 30 MR, 120 MEd, 120 Focus = 4.5 Mps

So 3% Drop in Base damage for ~6% More Mana Regeneration.
What calculators did you use? Plz provide a link.
According to UO-CAH.COM 700STR/120Tact/120Anat = 436.36% with a base damage of 24-33 5 slot pet. Where did they get there Calc from?

Is the player damage calc the same as the monster damage calc?
Is there a link to a monster damage calc?

@Khyro @Khaelor
 
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King Greg

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Playing some with their calculator

In their calculator it looks like they have it coded like this.
120 tactics as a 80% Base damage increase (81.25% For players)
120 Anatomy is 62.5% Base damage increase (65% For Players)
700 Strength = 212.5% (215 If Humans could hit that)

But that's probably just due to rounding.

My numbers were +361.25% Where there's came out to +358% Base damage. So definitely just rounding.

Keep in mind I was only looking at the Increase in damage and factoring out the 100%Base damage pets always have.
 

Khaelor

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Our calculator is accurate with regards to pet damage. We tested and verified extensively.
 

Lord Frodo

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Our calculator is accurate with regards to pet damage. We tested and verified extensively.
Who did you verify with? Is the pet damage different than the player damage calc? Care to post the formula you used?
 

Khaelor

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Verified through extensive testing. damage calculation tend to be the same across the game, players/mobs/pets. You do have to account for rounding though.

Pet damage calc is spot on. These are tools we created for ourselves that we decided to share.

I would have to look at what our exact formula is in the calculator, i dont have it offhand.
 

Khyro

Sage
If you would like to give testing examples on why you feel our damage calculation is wrong, I would be happy to investigate. I verified all the formulas we use and it all calculates correctly with no rounding errors. We use the damage formulas that are available on the uo wiki, stratics, and uoguide.

According to UO-CAH.COM 700STR/120Tact/120Anat = 436.36% with a base damage of 24-33 5 slot pet. Where did they get there Calc from?
I'm not sure how you are coming to 436.36% with our calculator. 24-33 with 700/120/120 will show a modified base damage of 110-152, which would be a 361.25% damage bonus (or 461.25% total damage):

((24 * 3.6125) + 24) = 110.7
((33 * 3.6125) + 33) = 152.2

These final totals are the only place we truncate the decimal and display a whole number.

For clarity, I have enabled the display of all the bonuses being applied to the damage total on the calculator and even added a Damage Increase field as well if you want to test player damage with +DI items.

1590386724366.png

We have also tested the in-game damage numbers heavily against this calculator (especially in regards to Chiv and Armor Ignore, and the numbers line up perfectly).

If you are getting different results that you feel are incorrect, please send specific examples and I will be happy to look into it.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

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For clarity, I have enabled the display of all the bonuses being applied to the damage total on the calculator and even added a Damage Increase field as well if you want to test player damage with +DI items.
Great. Plus Bard buffs apply to pets as well, and a 4x120 Inspire gives +58% DI and +15% Bonus Damage Modifier. At what point does Pack Instinct buff enter the damage calculation? Going to test out a 5x Wolf Spider pack soon with "As One" running on the Disco/Tamer and my full Bard/Mage running Inspire/Invigorate to buff and heal them. See how fast they can tear down a discoed General.
 
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Ang7

Adventurer
Related question:

What are the ideal stats for a Chiv/AI CU?

I have a fresh one and i dont want to screw it up

Also, is there an order that I should build a new CU?
 
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Khaelor

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Going to test out a 5x Wolf Spider pack soon with "As One" running on the Disco/Tamer and my full Bard/Mage running Inspire/Invigorate to buff and heal them. See how fast they can tear down a discoed General.
You're three years behind on that one.
 

Pawain

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You're three years behind on that one.
I kept my spiders. Took a while to find them all and make 5 stable spaces.
They eat up the rotting corpses better than other pets also.
 

Pawain

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Related question:

What are the ideal stats for a Chiv/AI CU?

I have a fresh one and i dont want to screw it up

Also, is there an order that I should build a new CU?
Here.
Max base damage per second and put AI , chiv, and scrolls on in the last round.
 

Pawain

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The cah.com site should have info on WWs. They are similar to a cu. So the first round would be the same. If you have a pre patch WW.

I don't build flappys.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

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You're three years behind on that one.
Lol, yeah. I usually build pets for a specific purpose, and haven't had a reason to utilize Pack Instinct pets in a long time (not since 2 Fire Steeds rocked). Generals have very low Resists (whatever Resist the armor on their paperdoll gives them), so Pack Instinct pets should work well on them. Plus they more recently made "As One" to be more sustainable.
 

Pawain

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A Player on LS is using 2 Blood Foxes. Not sure how well he does.

I was going to put in a Frost spider but their str is and damage is very low.

I use the spiders on my toon that I bring in when there is not much other spawn. The Dragons in Brit like to eat them. When I bring him in on a Mage general, he usually gets a book. The spiders can kill ranks below captain on their own without healing or maybe 1 needs healing a few times. They kill the humans and spawn faster than other pets that I see.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

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A Player on LS is using 2 Blood Foxes. Not sure how well he does.

I was going to put in a Frost spider but their str is and damage is very low.

I use the spiders on my toon that I bring in when there is not much other spawn. The Dragons in Brit like to eat them. When I bring him in on a Mage general, he usually gets a book. The spiders can kill ranks below captain on their own without healing or maybe 1 needs healing a few times. They kill the humans and spawn faster than other pets that I see.
Yeah, why i plan on using two chars with them. My Disco/Tamer will be running "As One" with the 5 Wolf Spiders to split the damage between them, and running Discord on the General. Then my Bard/Mage will be running "Inspire" (+22% HCI/+58% DI/+15% Bonus Damage Modifier) and "Invigorate" (+14 STR/+26 HP, 22 point heal every 4 secs) to buff and heal all 5 Wolf Spiders. Going to be interesting seeing the kind of damage they pump out.
 
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PlayerSkillFTW

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With Inspire/Invigorate running on 5 fully trained Wolf Spiders, they deal 100-130 damage each to a discoed General. So 500-650 damage every 1.25 secs as a pack, more than double the damage output of a 120 Chiv+AI 5 slot pet with EoO running. "As One" paired with "Invigorate" keeps them at full health almost the entire time, the only time i need to heal up the Spiders is when the General uses Frenzied Whirlwind.
 
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