Player vendors a Design issue : right or wrong ?

[XLaCeDX]

Your issue needs a tissue, IMHO.


That and you could use a visit from the Good Humor man. I hear they've got nice white padded walls back at the Lollipop Hotel, and even give you fancy white dinner jackets to wear....

Connor you do realize that the illegal search engines are now searching Zento and including your vendor house in their online searches?

That your Zento vendor house is now more or less Equal to a Luna City vendor house?

Yes you are vigilant about dropping runes to your vendor house, but please be honest with everyone here, your runes alone are not generating all your shopping traffick, so please ease up on popps.

I too own a zento vendor house on Pac, though vendoring is not my favorite past time in UO.

Zento is the greatest place to own a house in UO much prettier than Luna in my opinion, but it's been tainted with the illegal search websites bs now.

As much as I love my Zento house I'm with alot of people that Luna city needs blasting off the map because of all the illegal activity that it encourages, including the scripted searches of vendors and data transfer for the search websites (somehow the data for items that Luna City and now Zento vendors sell get transferred to 3rd party websites).

And now that my Zento house is more or less in the same category as the Luna city houses thanks to people who break the rules, I know if Luna gets blasted as many people wish, then so must my Zento vendor house.

And so must yours .

 

[Connor_Graham]

Connor you do realize that the illegal search engines are now searching Zento and including your vendor house in their online searches?

I know of one that used to, but it's been broken for quite some time now, so now only Luna is searched unless something has changed. One thing I do know for sure though, is that these sites hurt as much as, if not more than, they help. People with houses outside of Luna can use these sites to undercut all of the Luna vendors so they get the sales and not the overpriced Luna vendor owner.

That your Zento vendor house is now more or less Equal to a Luna City vendor house?

That doesn't explain my shop's success when it was in the backwater areas of Malas, which it was for a lot longer than any other house spot I've had.

Yes you are vigilant about dropping runes to your vendor house, but please be honest with everyone here, your runes alone are not generating all your shopping traffick, so please ease up on popps.

My shopping traffic is 75% repeat customers that have been shopping at my house for years now.

I too own a zento vendor house on Pac, though vendoring is not my favorite past time in UO.

It's not mine either, but there's no better way to make gold with a very small amount of time invested.

Zento is the greatest place to own a house in UO much prettier than Luna in my opinion, but it's been tainted with the illegal search websites bs now.

I agree on Zento being the best place. That's the reason why I wanted a house there. And keep in mind that nothing is tainted if the house itself has a reputation for being fairly priced, and has all items that are being sold obtained legally. Outside of a couple of Luna vendor house owners that try to hurt my reputation by changing my runes to something that says I exploited to get xxx item (and also mention that I killed the market for them woot!), most of the people that I've done business with, and even quite a few that I haven't, will say that I'm an honest businessman. People have even paid more for something at my house than they could have gotten elsewhere just for the reason that they know mine was scripted/exploited. It's the house owner that makes the reputation for a house, not a website. Luna has the reputation it has because every house (or almost every at the very least) has had illegal, scripted, duped, or exploited items for sale every single day. The same can't be said of houses in Zento.

 

[popps]

As much as I love my Zento house I'm with alot of people that Luna city needs blasting off the map because of all the illegal activity that it encourages, including the scripted searches of vendors and data transfer for the search websites (somehow the data for items that Luna City and now Zento vendors sell get transferred to 3rd party websites).

The real question is, though, whether the Developers have decided to take action to address this issue which, IMHO, has been going on way for too long now.......

And, if they have, in what direction will their steps be........

 

[Connor_Graham]

The real question is, though, whether the Developers have decided to take action to address this issue which, IMHO, has been going on way for too long now.......

I'd say no, simply because there isn't an issue other than in your own mind.

 

[Kiminality]

Well, to the game owners (and to the Developers who are their employees...) all players are equal since they all pay the same subscription fees.

Therefore, all players should be entitled to enjoy their game on a similar basis given that they pay the same monthly fee.

Currently, as I see it, not all players wanting to run vendors are on a same evened out basis. Those outside Luna either have to spend a whole lot of their gaming time to attend those vendors, quite more than their fellow players with vendors in Luna, or they most likely will see their vending facility fail.

This is quite a Design issue, IMHO, and one needing developers' attention and the sooner the better, finding a good solution that would make all players capable to enjoy their monthly fee, playing vendors, equally putting time into attending them.......

It's like any progression in an MMO.
If I pay the same monthly fee as someone with a peerless-soloing sampire, why can't I solo a peerless?
If I pay the same monthly fee as someone with 120 taming, why do I have to plug away at harts?
If I pay the same monthly fee as a Luna vendor operator, why do I have to work twice as hard running one on the outskirts?

Anyone can get a Luna vendor, if they work on it.
Or, they can run a successful vendor elsewhere.

An idea that does tickle me, though, is if a player could go to Luna, and use their character to set up a "stall".

 

[popps]

It's like any progression in an MMO.
If I pay the same monthly fee as someone with a peerless-soloing sampire, why can't I solo a peerless?
If I pay the same monthly fee as someone with 120 taming, why do I have to plug away at harts?
If I pay the same monthly fee as a Luna vendor operator, why do I have to work twice as hard running one on the outskirts?

Anyone can get a Luna vendor, if they work on it.
Or, they can run a successful vendor elsewhere.

An idea that does tickle me, though, is if a player could go to Luna, and use their character to set up a "stall".

The problem is, that while a player can solo a Peerless and so doing not hurt another player, the fact that Luna vendor houses run as they run, do hurt all of those other players not in Luna and trying to run their vending houses.......

In real life most societies have an anti-trust Agency and for a good reason, to avoid market dominance by only a few companies.....

In the US for example, very very large (and powerfull) Companies have been forcedly split up to break market dominance. And we think that we cannot intervene about Luna in Ultima Online ??

In a virtual online world we do not have an anti-trust Agency to appeal to, but we do have Developers who could, if they focus on the issue, act as the Anti-trust real world Agencies and break the current market dominance which Luna vendor houses excise on this virtual business.

They only need to see the problem, make a plan to even out the field, and do it.

 

[Mairut]

This is so wrong I wouldn't even know where to begin. I made just as much in the past year as a well stocked vendor house in Luna with my Zento house, and this was with advertising regularly and keeping the vendors stocked daily so people could depend on me having what they wanted almost every time they showed up. Personally, I'd much rather have my house in Zento than in Luna, and have had the ability to own a Luna house several times now. Why don't you actually try merchanting before you start whining about it? I guess you must have just run out of things you can use PvP as an excuse for, even though you don't PvP, so had to attack another part of the game that you have little to no experience in.

Better yet, why don't you just play the game and forget Stratics exists? I know I'd cough a few mil up to contribute to that fund.

I expect one of the reasons why you didn't have trouble advertising your wares is because Zento is one of those locations that "those" websites show item and price lists on (or did).

A pain though it is to try to find items manually now, I am glad those aren't working atm.

I know of one that used to, but it's been broken for quite some time now, so now only Luna is searched unless something has changed. One thing I do know for sure though, is that these sites hurt as much as, if not more than, they help. People with houses outside of Luna can use these sites to undercut all of the Luna vendors so they get the sales and not the overpriced Luna vendor owner.



That doesn't explain my shop's success when it was in the backwater areas of Malas, which it was for a lot longer than any other house spot I've had.




My shopping traffic is 75% repeat customers that have been shopping at my house for years now.




It's not mine either, but there's no better way to make gold with a very small amount of time invested.




I agree on Zento being the best place. That's the reason why I wanted a house there. And keep in mind that nothing is tainted if the house itself has a reputation for being fairly priced, and has all items that are being sold obtained legally. Outside of a couple of Luna vendor house owners that try to hurt my reputation by changing my runes to something that says I exploited to get xxx item (and also mention that I killed the market for them woot!), most of the people that I've done business with, and even quite a few that I haven't, will say that I'm an honest businessman. People have even paid more for something at my house than they could have gotten elsewhere just for the reason that they know mine was scripted/exploited. It's the house owner that makes the reputation for a house, not a website. Luna has the reputation it has because every house (or almost every at the very least) has had illegal, scripted, duped, or exploited items for sale every single day. The same can't be said of houses in Zento.

One of the search sites does not work at all for Atlantic.
The other one just plain sucks.

Your shopping traffic was good there because, I suspect since you said "years", you were there before the search sites.

And yes, there have been scripted items for sale in Zento and Luna. At least on my shard, and there are more than just a couple houses in Luna that don't sell scripted items.

And as far as undercutting Luna vendors...I'm not sure how you got that when most Luna and Zento owners overprice their stock anyway. And while I can find items in Luna when I need them, the same cannot be said of Zento because those owners do not keep their vendors stocked half the time.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

The whole issue seems to boil down to "I don't like the search sites". And that I can agree with. No idea why you presented it as an issue with luna shops. Sure start a thread about how these search sites are hurting the game and other players/vendors. I would support that, and I believe many might support that cause. Trying to rally people against luna vendors though just isn't going to happen lol.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I expect one of the reasons why you didn't have trouble advertising your wares is because Zento is one of those locations that "those" websites show item and price lists on (or did).

This doesn't explain why I've been just as successful in locations that are in the boonies. Even my Zento house requires me to drop runes every day, or near to it if I want to maintain steady sales. Advertising and keeping your vendors stocked are the only 2 things you need to do to have a profitable vendor house regardless of where it is. Before or after the search sites doesn't matter. IMO those sites hurt Luna more than it helps.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Why should all locations be equal?

 

[Connor_Graham]

Why should all locations be equal?

Because popps says they should.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I haven't wrapped my head around that yet either. Just humor him or he might have one of his "episodes".

 

[Slippery Jim]

Putting aside the issue of vendor location (this was a complaint before Malas was implemented), there is a fundamental challenge inherent in the vending system. While the designers have implemented an explosion of items and attributes, there has been no corresponding advance made in the player experience related to item exchange.

Certainly players have adapted to this, but solely from the perspective of the player experience in looking to spend hard-earned gold or sell valuable loot, I don’t feel it enhances game play from either perspective to have a functional needle-in-the-haystack. Run the model forward five years – after say 3 expansions, hundreds of new item/attribute combinations, new content, races, etc., it is likely to become unsustainable.

SJ

 

[popps]

The whole issue seems to boil down to "I don't like the search sites". And that I can agree with. No idea why you presented it as an issue with luna shops. Sure start a thread about how these search sites are hurting the game and other players/vendors. I would support that, and I believe many might support that cause. Trying to rally people against luna vendors though just isn't going to happen lol.

Actually, I do not disfavour a search engine.
It saves time to players looking for something and helps keeping prices under control as it helps competition though, I admit it, it takes the flavour away from the game of discovering something.

The only thing, is that I would like the search engine to work globally, not only for limited locations.

That is, I would want the developers to design a search engine that works for all vendors wherever they may be.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Actually, I do not disfavour a search engine.
It saves time to players looking for something and helps keeping prices under control as it helps competition though, I admit it, it takes the flavour away from the game of discovering something.

The only thing, is that I would like the search engine to work globally, not only for limited locations.

That is, I would want the developers to design a search engine that works for all vendors wherever they may be.

Wtf........ I don't consider myself to be a slow person, but I never can understand your arguments oO.

You start by saying Luna vendors have it easy and it isn't fair to everyone else and the Devs designed it poorly. You don't understand the Devs never said place houses here and create a strip mall, the players themselves decided to do that. Houses near Brit use to be the prime realestate prior to Luna.

Then you go on to say you want the ability to have vendors in or around luna removed completely oO. You want only houses scattered out in the wilderness able to have vendors lol. Which is odd as hell.

Then you go on to complain about the search engines.

Then you bring up all this random real life crap.

I tried following your train of thought so that could decipher the logic in it and I just can't find it.

This post sort of puts it all into perspective though.

You seem to believe this is the problem..............

Luna is to convenient, my vendor takes more work to stock and advertise.

Search Engines are unfair, not because they make it more like an online shopping mall but because my vendor isn't listed.

Not having my Vendor in luna or on the search engine means the whole player owned vendor mechanic is flawed.

The best solution for everyone would be to have vendors only allowed in remote obscure places and listed on a developer made search engine. (I'm going to guess your house is out in the boonies)



Having a vendor in Luna is something some people have set as a goal in game, owning a house in luna is something some very ambitious people have set as a goal. Setting your own goals is a large part of UO, what you are asking for is to not have to work towards what others are and have worked towards. Instead you think you should be able to compete with those that have invested the time without doing anything. What ever happend to the hard work pays off mindset? When did this whole, you can't do better than me it isn't fair mindset start?


Point blank Popps, Having a vendor in luna has it's perk. You want those perks, work for it. If you don't want to work for it, then let it go because it isn't going to change just because you think it's unfair. There has to be things to work towards in UO. Personal Goals to reach, milestones if you will. I mean this is the equivalent of saying, People have castles and I don't so castles should be removed, People have unique rares and I don't so they should be removed as well, People have Pink Cu's and I don't so they should be removed as well, so on and so on and so on. It would make at least a little more sense if you were complaining about something you could never have, but dude you can get a luna vendor if you want. There are plenty of vendor houses with free space lol.

 

[Kiminality]

The problem is, that while a player can solo a Peerless and so doing not hurt another player, the fact that Luna vendor houses run as they run, do hurt all of those other players not in Luna and trying to run their vending houses.......

If you try to open a vendor outside of Luna, you have to contend with the competition of Luna.
If you go to do a peerless, while someone's soloing it, you can't.
The opportunities for taking part in that activity are subject to the same dominance.

In real life most societies have an anti-trust Agency and for a good reason, to avoid market dominance by only a few companies.....

In the US for example, very very large (and powerfull) Companies have been forcedly split up to break market dominance. And we think that we cannot intervene about Luna in Ultima Online ??

In a virtual online world we do not have an anti-trust Agency to appeal to, but we do have Developers who could, if they focus on the issue, act as the Anti-trust real world Agencies and break the current market dominance which Luna vendor houses excise on this virtual business.

They only need to see the problem, make a plan to even out the field, and do it.

That would be peripherally relevant, if Luna was a single corporation. However bringing economic precedents from the real world is a pretty bad idea.
The UO economy doesn't function in the same was as a real world economy, so such ideas aren't going to seamlessly fit.

What would work better than trying to screw over Luna, would be to mitigate the impact of the indexers.
One way would be to somehow prevent the use of programs that enable it, which would pretty much send shopping in UO back to the dark ages.
Or, there should be a shard-wide, official vendor index. Perhaps as a vendor option - Double vendor fees for inclusion, or some such.

 

[Tina Small]

People have Pink Cu's and I don't so they should be removed as well....

My crystal ball that predicts future U.Hall threads just came to life with a crack of lightening that nearly knocked me out of my chair.

If it's broken now, you owe me a new one.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

My crystal ball that predicts future U.Hall threads just came to life with a crack of lightening that nearly knocked me out of my chair.

If it's broken now, you owe me a new one.

lol

 

[popps]

Wtf........ I don't consider myself to be a slow person, but I never can understand your arguments oO.

I am not sure what you do not understand about the fact that a global search engine would not favour or disfavour anyone, particularly.

It would simply even out the field among all players and, actually, it would contribute to help prices go down for all players.

For example, say that someone is looking for an Armor of Fortune, a perspective buyer would simply interrogate the global search engine, find the coordinates where it is sold at a price most convenient for them and go buy it.

Whether Luna, Zento or in the middle of nowhere what will matter will be pricing, not location. And, this will help get prices down on earth, to more reasonable figures.

That is why I am not against a global search engine.

What we have today creates disparity because it only works for limited locations (Luna and Zento) and actually gets prices to raise rather then go down and, therefore, puts everyone else at a disadvantage.

But if the engine was to work for any and all vendors regardless where they may be, this would simply make Luna or Zento or the middle of nowhere the same exact thing to a perspective buyer......

By the way, I have no vendors nor vending houses whatsoever.
I am not sure why you refer to me as if I had any........

 

[Connor_Graham]

So once again you sit there and argue a point in which you have no knowledge of.


That says a WHOLE lot about ya.

A WHOLE lot.

 

[popps]

One way would be to somehow prevent the use of programs that enable it, which would pretty much send shopping in UO back to the dark ages.
Or, there should be a shard-wide, official vendor index. Perhaps as a vendor option - Double vendor fees for inclusion, or some such.

Personally, I much more would prefer an official, shard wide search engine offered with the courtesy of the game owners.

Just blocking third party search engines would not even out the field among all vendor houses since those out of the way would still be at a disadvantage.
Besides, looking for some specific item could take an extreme amount of time without any search engine thus frustrating players.

Having a global search engine instread, would put all vending houses, regardless where they may be, on the same starting line and ONLY each individual player's ability in running them could make the difference.
Besides, an added bonus of a global search engine would be the containment of inflation.

For way too many years we have seen inflation in this game just skyrocket and hurt new players.

It used to be that 100,000 gold coins where a whole lot, now 100 millions are laughed at...

This needs to stop and a global search engine could help curb inflation bringing prices more down to earth.

 

[popps]

So once again you sit there and argue a point in which you have no knowledge of.


That says a WHOLE lot about ya.

A WHOLE lot.

Excuse me ?

Not having them does not mean that over the years I have not had them.......
It is quite amazing to me how I say one thing and something else gets understood.....
Quite amazing......

 

[Dermott of LS]

Why should all locations be equal?

...

I believe there is quite a difference between "all locations being equal" and "only one city is worth maintaining a vendor due to how it was designed".

We're talking ONE CITY out of four houseable FACETS... a central bank and one or two screens radius from said bank that is considered the "vendor zone" (for the lucky placers or people willing to pay them), and the rest of the world be damned.

I'd love for my cabin to have traffic again what with a public forge, and public dye tubs to go with the vendors, however there's ZERO reason to mine in Trammel when you can double your take with NO risk in Fel, thus no incidental traffic and as stated before, no time to play researcher, litterer, spammer, vendor supply, AND do what I actually WANT to do in UO.

Yeah a centralized system would move away from the idealism of earlier UO, but really Luna has already effectively killed that already.