Pets wasting mana on healing & invs

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I dont think its truthful though that every pvp tamer has zero vet...

I have 110 Vet myself. I can stone it and exchange it for something else of course, but I play both PvM and PvP. Also, I have managed to save my Kits life with vet during a PvP fight a few times...so I don't consider it to be useless.


I think a lot of PvPers are upset because of the so-called "gimp" tactics employed by some tamers. Personally, I call this lack of adaptation on the part of the persons complaining, but whatever.

It seems to me that non-tamer PvP players really have two choices:

Adapt to the game

or

Get killed a lot


Of course, there is the byproduct of nigh-infinite whining that goes along with option 2, but some people would rather curse the darkness and all that...

 

[Hemisphere]

That was a play on words. Glad you enjoyed it!! I love the hair btw!



You realize there were NO special moves in UO at launch right?

There actually was UO before AoS.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there were some special moves at launch. For example disarm, concussion blow, paralyzing blow. They might have come sometime later, but not much later!

Edit: P.S. - thanks! It takes hours to get it looking like this

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You know, I suppose I owe WarUltima an apology.

Even though I do not feel that I started the personal attacks and name calling and such, I will apologize to him here, and anyone else offended.

It bugs me when a poster specifically asks for the topic of their post not to be derailed by a tangent, in this case tamers in PvP, and it happens anyway.

I also take offense to anyone that states that someone that does not share their opinion must be a troll.

WarUltima asked me to post something "constructive"...so my question is, what could I possibly post...outside of agreeing with him completely could I have posted that he would have considered "constructive"?

My stance is simple.

I do not think that tamers need to be removed from PvP. I have been playing UO since the day the 2nd phase of beta went live, and I have been on ever since. I have played almost every template there is in the game...and I can tell you, it took me longer to work up my tamer than any other template. A great deal longer.

Now I realize that I could have cheated my way through that, and avoided that grind, so I can understand why some players do not feel that tamers have any reason to expect to receive some reward for all of that time.

But the one thing I cannot understand is the attitude that many display here that whatever template they play, be it mage, warrior, whatever...is automatically the standard of all templates, and that every other template should be brought into line to match up with (or more accurately, be slightly inferior to) their own.

No one in this game is locked into one template or play style. Some tamers that PvP use tactics that others don't. The same can be said for almost any template.

I can understand that it can be frustrating to constantly be beaten by a specific template. I am often frustrated by para-gankers, but I rarely complain about it openly because there is no point. I adjust my play style and I move on. I don't ask for these players to be banned or nerfed or anything else.

So with all that said...I am sorry that my pro-tamer attitude that I have acquired over the last 11 years shows through in some of my posts here. I am sorry that some of you believe that anyone that disagrees with your stance is "stupid", "********", or whatever other personal attack you'd like to use...but the reality is, we all play UO our own way...and there is no right way and wrong way.

So with that said, I will drop this matter and I will cease to respond to any more posts or threads that involve nerfing tamers or tamers in PvP. Apparently differing view points are not welcome by some...so I will keep my opinions on the subject to myself.

Well, I am off to abuse my power in the game and kill some warriors and mages and other poor helpless players that are powerless against my godlike overpowered pets.

...enjoy!

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there were some special moves at launch. For example disarm, concussion blow, paralyzing blow. They might have come sometime later, but not much later!

Nope.

Concussion blow was added in like the 2nd year, either just before or just after T2A. Same with paralyzing blow.

In the very early days of UO, like the first 6 months to a year, most players played tank mage templates...using magery, swords, tactics. And pretty much everyone used halberds. The most common PvP method was para, hit with halberd until dead. Para was not broken with hits back then, and the trapped box/pouch "tactic" did not work either. When you were paralyzed, you were paralyzed until it wore off...period.

Like I said, much has changed in UO since launch...special moves were added to warriors, and new magery types, etc. The only two templates, as far as combat templates go, that never received things like this were tamers and bards.

When players complain that tamers can just use one macro, All Kill, they don't realize that pretty much everyone could do that in the beginning, and it was the enhancement and evolution of other skills that led to a more complicated mechanic behind their use.

But I digress.

I really am tired of discussing this.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Odd how some pets behave this way. And it seems that wild casting creatures never behave this way.

PvP arguments aside, I still think it would be helpful if either pet AI was changed to cause them to heal/cure when needed, and concentrate on offensive spells when not low on HP, or make it selectable...at least in the form of some kind of command or gump that merely specifies offensive or defensive posture.

Gee, that sounds familiar. Its almost as if someone suggested exactly that... but was completely ignored because its much more fun to discuss off-topic issues of tamer overpoweredness in PvP...



Edit: And yes, wild pets do seem to work this way as well.

Having lead and tamed quite a few greater dragons to a no-spawn area, and having beaten-down a fair number of them prior to attempting a tame, I've noticed that, at least with GDs, the only time a GD will use magic to heal itself will be if it is actually fighting - if you beat a GD down to a sliver and recall away, the GD will remain at that sliver for a surprisingly long time. Let him aggro on you, though, and watch as he immediately mana-dumps Greater heals on himself and is back to 1/2 health before you can get a couple taming attempts off...

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

at least with GDs, the only time a GD will use magic to heal itself will be if it is actually fighting - if you beat a GD down to a sliver and recall away, the GD will remain at that sliver for a surprisingly long time. Let him aggro on you, though, and watch as he immediately mana-dumps Greater heals on himself and is back to 1/2 health before you can get a couple taming attempts off...

Sorry. This is what I meant.

When you are fighting a wild Greater, or most other monsters for that matter, they will get to the end of their HP and cast Greater Heal like its the only spell they know!

Yet, if you have a tame that is about to buy it...it will allow itself to die slowly from poison...even after its foe is dead unless you heal it.

 

[DarkScripture]

I was hoping to find the issues that plague this idea and work on a solution to finding balance with it. If pets had a life span timer sort of like a placed parrot in you home, then the longer you had you pet maybe the more control you have. I was thinking more on real time play not so much as stabled pets. I stopped posting in here once the feud started. I ad hoped to get a few more on topic post to build on. If PvP can not be avoided on pet then how about this selective cast never apply once a pet is attacked/attacks in PvP. Removing it from the equation.

 

[Yalp]

Sure Tamers can start having control over the spells their pets cast as soon as those pets are required to follow the exact same spell casting rules as players.

2/6 casting
Interuptable
Must stop to cast 1 spell at a time
Line of Sight[/QUOTET]

These are good ideas.. however with the ability to cast protection on themselves... interruptible would be a moot point.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Here are some tips on fighting tamers using only 1 pet:

- Run as soon as you see the GD and the words All Kill appear

I find it laughable that you don't see anything wrong with the fact that "Run away" is the first "tactic" you list for dealing with a GD.

Tamers are already overpowered in both PvM and PvP, especially GD's. The players all know it (whether they want to admit it publicly or not) and the Dev's know it, otherwise they wouldn't be planning on the upcoming nerf to GD's.

As far as the idea in this thread, I'd have to agree with both LG and Colter. Adding the ability to specify which spells your pets cast and under which circumstances would make an already overpowered template even moreso.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

These are good ideas.. however with the ability to cast protection on themselves... interruptible would be a moot point.

Not really, protection gives players a resist spells penalty and caps casting at 0 and reduces physical resist.

Also missing from that list are stacking specials/spells at the same time, something that was purposely removed from players. Plus they mostly ignore damage caps that previous balances thought fair for attacks against players.

 

[DarkScripture]

What part of try to leave PvP out of this did you guys not get? "not that I can control my fellow forum goers- lack of skill on my part"Try to add a solution to it with in PvP!!! I have thought of a few, and no comments on being frozen, skill based, removed all control during PvP have been commented on. I even thought that if you and your pet are the only targets then maybe the creature you are fighting re-targets on the controller causes you to have to move and breaking direct-control. I really think this idea has some merit, but need some workable ideas. Not just yes or no. To make ideas work they have to be thought out and discussed and expose the weakness of said plan. PvP is a know issue and short stops would have to be added to prevent PvP abuse of course. Take the time to see how you would implement this idea. But bringing up every over powered scenario in which someone could not fight back does not give forth ideas. Too much is being directed at the PvP end of this without any forethought or how we could use this in balanced play. I could even see a old useless skill revamped and recycled to allow control thus the need for even more skill to be able to use this idea. Please try to give forth something usefully and creative.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I'm not against it because it would be abused in PvP, I'm against it because it would be abused in PvM & PvP.

 

[Intoxication]

yeah what a dumb idea.

Its a pet it isn't supposed to be as smart as a player and just cast some spells.
That's like saying I want my cat to only crap when I say it can.

Good thing these ideas never get any farther then here so why bother fighting with people that don't understand how badly this would mess up PvP and PvM.

 

[Connor_Graham]

What part of try to leave PvP out of this did you guys not get?

Since PvM and PvP share the same combat system, you can't make changes to one and ignore the other.

 

[DarkScripture]

I'm not against it because it would be abused in PvP, I'm against it because it would be abused in PvM & PvP.

How would you use this idea and limit abuse?? Anything to add? I really want to get ideas on it and find common ground. If someone had to have more skill to do so would that still lead to abuse? The idea to allow something to be wasteful because others would abused it, if not censored sounds ridicules to me. Put something in place with a well thought out idea. Not a half baked toss out.

 

[Intoxication]

I for one am not against it only because it would mess up PvP and PvM but the idea it self. Think about it the pet AI is how it is supposed to be when casting spells, we don't need smarter pets. Yeah pets shouldn't get stuck on things the way they do but I think that has to do with line of sight.

 

[Yalp]

Not really, protection gives players a resist spells penalty and caps casting at 0 and reduces physical resist.

Also missing from that list are stacking specials/spells at the same time, something that was purposely removed from players. Plus they mostly ignore damage caps that previous balances thought fair for attacks against players.

well to be clear.. DC's idea that spells for pets would be interruptible wouldn't last long because a tamer would have the pet cast protection on itself... thereby ensuring that the spells would always be cast. I didn't say there wouldn't be consequences for this....

but then again.. maybe you just want to argue about everything..

the restriction on stacking specials and spells would/should be the same as restrictions on players... nothing wrong with that.

 

[Kazumi the Wild]

Sorry. This is what I meant.

When you are fighting a wild Greater, or most other monsters for that matter, they will get to the end of their HP and cast Greater Heal like its the only spell they know!

Yet, if you have a tame that is about to buy it...it will allow itself to die slowly from poison...even after its foe is dead unless you heal it.

You seemed to have missed what I actually said.

IF an NPC is aggroed to something, it WILL cast spells, including greater heals and arch cures. If an NPC is not aggroed to anything, it will NOT cast spells, even if it might otherwise die. I don't see any distinctions between what a tamed greater and a wild greater does, unless the commands given by a tamer prevent their tamed pet from aggroing.

If a wild greater was poisoned and could die from the poison but its target was killed before it gets an arch cure off, I'm willing to bet that greater dragon wouldn't cast a damn thing. Its the same way a tame greater dragon behaves, one simply doesn't see that often because while a pet won't always be aggroed on immediately after killing its target, its rare to see an aggressive spawn that isn't aggroing something on screen (unless it just wiped all PCs into ooOOoOoOOoO mode).



So, the rest of you think that being able to cherry pick spells and specials to be used is overpowered. That's good to know. Is it the same if you're only allowed to pick CATEGORIES of spells, like offensive/defensive/buff/debuff/balanced, which include ALL spells of that category as possible to be cast (including the weaker ones, like magic arrow and harm)?

Why or Why not?

Grades will be passed back at the end of next class.

 

[Wenchkin]

It's perfectly simple really. If pets cast the spells, or types of spells we select they will be MUCH more powerful than they are casting randomly from their spell list and throwing the odd invis or heal in the mix. Much faster killing times for one thing....

I don't see the need for this change. It's a question of how powerful you believe your pets are and how much power you want I guess. I think we have enough, given my pets are average, my templates are ok and my kit is pretty average as well. Seems that tamers are a lot harder to satisfy lately and quite oblivious to their current strengths

It would take out a lot of the challenge in killing mobs if we knew what spells would be coming from our pets and could specify them even in PvM. Fights would be a lot more alike, and for me that would just make taming as boring as hitting the same old macros repeatedly on my warrior. I'd have it turned off if possible.

For what it's worth, I can't remember the last time one of my pets cast invis. The only times my pets seem to heal is on low health, in which case I appreciate their contribution to the battle. They're still able to melee at the same time, so it's no big deal for me.

And clearly this change would affect PvP so PvP is a perfectly valid part of the discussion. PvP tamers certainly don't need or deserve any further love from the devs considering how things lie right now. This change would perk up PvP tamers a lot, even if some don't want to admit it, or want to argue that they're no stronger than anyone else.

Wenchy

 

[Duskofdead]

I think pets need to cast at an inferior rate of speed and competency than a human player would.

This refers to everything from "not always using the optimal offensive spell" to "sometimes wasting mana" to "not able to chain cast poisonflamestrikeenergybolt within 2 seconds."

UO is already Petcraft Online enough.... adding for customized orders for spell attacks and such would just make pets that much more deadly, tamers that much more used, and the balance in the space-time continuum that much more disrupted.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

How would you use this idea and limit abuse?? Anything to add?

I wouldn't use this idea. Yes.

If someone had to have more skill to do so would that still lead to abuse?

Yes.

The idea to allow something to be wasteful because others would abused it, if not censored sounds ridicules to me.

That isn't the only reason.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

well to be clear.. DC's idea that spells for pets would be interruptible wouldn't last long because a tamer would have the pet cast protection on itself... thereby ensuring that the spells would always be cast. I didn't say there wouldn't be consequences for this....

but then again.. maybe you just want to argue about everything..

the restriction on stacking specials and spells would/should be the same as restrictions on players... nothing wrong with that.

That wasn't part of his idea, his idea didn't consider current imbalances and your comment didn't convey that you understood a player in protection is not on par with a pet casting uninteruptably. So you see arguement was necessary.

Yes it should, but it isn't neither are the other things mentioned.

 

[ColterDC]

the balance in the space-time continuum that much more disrupted.

QFT :bowdown:

Disrupting the space-time continuum is the last thing we need to do.

 

[ATLPvPer]

That's your opinion.

I do not see how allowing or disallowing specific spells on pets is going to singlehandedly "ruin PvP".




If I am controlling the pet, then why not allow me to control the pet fully?

Warriors and Mages can choose what specials and spells they use...while tamers cannot do the same for their pets.

Perhaps this could be a trade off for the nerfs that are sure to come to pets due to the large amount of whining from non-tamers.

Let me ask you this:

Do you believe that tamers should have a viable place in PvP? Or are you just one of these people that thinks tamers and pets should be barred from PvP entirely?

The original poster did not bring this up to start an argument about tamers in PvP, yet the very first post by anyone other than the OP was doing just that.

If the devs added spell control to pets, then perhaps they might need to make other adjustments to balance that for PvP...ever think of that?

I absolutely agree EVERY template should have a place in PvP.
I do NOT agree that any template should have a serious advantage over every other template. Right now a tamer with a super dragon and bola has that.
If you have ever fought a tamer, you cannot tell me that having a tamer chose 'exlode & flamestrike' or 'explode and fire breath' would not severely imbalance everything. That is a one hit kill, that IS imbalance.

Lets be honest, if a developer adds something like this, no one is going to bet money that they make adjustments to balance it for PvP. Can you even tell me HOW this would adjust for PvP? I think tamers with a greater dragon and magery or archery is already the most powerful template in PvP and PvM, why does it need more enhancements?

 

[Duskofdead]

QFT :bowdown:

Disrupting the space-time continuum is the last thing we need to do.

Remember what happened to old Haven?

Yup, there is a coverup underway... but that was due to the cosmic imbalances caused by tamers.

 

[Duskofdead]

I absolutely agree EVERY template should have a place in PvP.
I do NOT agree that any template should have a serious advantage over every other template. Right now a tamer with a super dragon and bola has that.
If you have ever fought a tamer, you cannot tell me that having a tamer chose 'exlode & flamestrike' or 'explode and fire breath' would not severely imbalance everything. That is a one hit kill, that IS imbalance.

Lets be honest, if a developer adds something like this, no one is going to bet money that they make adjustments to balance it for PvP. Can you even tell me HOW this would adjust for PvP? I think tamers with a greater dragon and magery or archery is already the most powerful template in PvP and PvM, why does it need more enhancements?

Be CAUSSEE!!!

I should be able to TELL my pet which chainspells to slaughter people with, not just have to watch them do it randomly!

*Tongue slightly in-cheek*

 

[Nibblets]

How about bumping the AI a bit on certain higher level pets. Hence the "would you like to be my companion" bit when you try to tame them. Most pets have a higher intelligence rating then the players do, so make it so they'll cast greater heal when badly damaged, invis a couple times when badly damaged (the whole take the creatures attention off me for a sec to get a heal through) but give it a timer so the pet isn't constantly casting it. Not casting poison if what they're fighting is already poisoned or immune. And unless it's a pet with a low magic skill I don't think magic missile should even be an option. And just fix it so that if a pet is poisoned it will attempt to cast cure on itself in or out of battle (same goes for greater heal). Supposedly these are creatures of great intelligence, but most of the time they certainly don't act like it.

No monster or pet should be able to target things that aren't in line of sight. And perhaps give pets a form of tracking so they can follow their owner/companion if you happen to lose sight of them, ie around rocks and trees and tears their attention away from the pretty patch of flowers that just happened to catch their interest. Cause we all know how much Greater dragons love to stop and smell the snap dragons....