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OT: Red Cross having to borrow money for current relief efforts

Skylark SP

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The Red Cross is expecting the cost for relief efforts from hurricane Gustav to come close to $70M, and was forced to borrow money to cover immediate costs (their $30M domestic relief fund was wiped out in early summer after providing assistance with the mid-west floods). As of last week they had raised only around $5M from contributions to cover the debt. Now they are having to open additional shelters and provide even larger scale relief for victims of Ike. They are borrowing the money for that as well.

This made the local news for my area, and probably did for many others.

The Red Cross had to borrow for the first time in its history in 2005, after Katrina. They have spent a total of $2 BILLION in relief efforts in the past 2 - 3 years for just 2 storms: Katrina and Rita.

Several other non-profit groups such as the Salvation Army have also taken a big hit, spending far more in relief efforts than they have taken in donations for recent disasters, but none come even close to the scale of the Red Cross. They operate almost exclusively from private donations...they receive very little in Federal funds.

They are planning to launch a massive donation campaign to try to cover the debt.

-Skylark
 

AEowynSP

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Sorry that last post probably came off very wrong, I just get very frustrated about how our tax dollars are alocated.
 

kelmo

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Let's not confuse the issues.
 

Kat

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I don't think she is confusing the issue at all. Its a shame that a charity group has to come up with creative ways to cover disaster relief funds, while our government sends millions and millions to other countries when they need help after natural disasters.

I'll stop there to avoid turning this into a rant. >.<
 
S

Sweeney

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Yes it is bad enough that our tax money is used to air lift/rescue the 40% of the population that did not evacuate. Let's keep it on topic.
 

AEowynSP

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I am glad I am not the only one who sees serious problems in our government.
I can't send money but I will make extra effort over the next few months to donate my time.
Thank you Sky for starting this thread.


The youth replied " It made a diffrence to that one"

Remember the starfish!
Random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
 

AEowynSP

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Yes it is bad enough that our tax money is used to air lift/rescue the 40% of the population that did not evacuate. Let's keep it on topic.
Yes that too is sad. I say let darwinisim take it's toll.

Drinking in a bar?? *shakes head in disgust*
 
S

Sweeney

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I am reminded of the plans after Katrina for a gov't buyout of land to return to wetlands as a buffer zone, that never happened. If you live in a disaster-prone area, you need to accept potential consequences and have plans in place.

That is harsh yes, but it is the truth. I am sorry if this thread is ruined.

[edit] Let's keep it on topic.[\edit]

PS. I am a poor college student and I have more principle than cash.
 

AEowynSP

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"The Red Cross had to borrow for the first time in its history in 2005"

WOW!
Well my thoughts/best wishes/prayers go out to all who are providing relief from this latest storm.
 

Speedy Orkit

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If you didn't evacuate, that makes you an idiot and IMO you should be considered a criminal for ignoring a government request. Now others(most likely me included) have to leave their families to go save you because your scrap books and antique lamp were too close to your heart to allow them to be swept away by a storm. Ridiculous.
 

Speedy Orkit

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I don't believe the people that stay back are necessarily bad people, just negligent. This is panning out to be the biggest search in American history. So big every unit in my state is on high alert, including mine which is currently finishing a deployment in Iraq. To waste more tax dollars, and lives in the effort to find those that stayed behind infuriates me. We have guys getting pulled from their jobs, college schedules, etc to look for these folks. I'm glad to do my job, and will enjoy the travel and experience, but I'm not happy for the reason it's happening.
 

Patty Pickaxe

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Yes it is bad enough that our tax money is used to air lift/rescue the 40% of the population that did not evacuate. Let's keep it on topic.
Yes that too is sad. I say let darwinisim take it's toll.

Drinking in a bar?? *shakes head in disgust*
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. If you CHOSE to stay behind you should suffer the consequences of that CHOICE.
 

T'Challa

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Let's not forget, especially in the case of Katrina, some people did not have the means to leave at all.

I'll go no further, this is a touchy subject for me, as it hits close to home in many ways. I leave y'all to it...
 
S

Sunchicken

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My town in west Tennessee has been devistated by tornadoes 3 out of the last 10 years. Tornadoes tend to give you about 15 mins to get in safty.
You tell me 2-4 days in advance there is going to be a tornado anywhere near me my arss is in the basement.

What is exactly the amount of time they were telling these people to evacuate?
Worse case senario i can walk/ jog a pretty good way in 2-4 days...
 
G

Goron

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Do not get me started.
The schools in my town are very well funded. They provide excellent education and extracurricular activities. IF that were not the case, I would enroll my children into a private school and ensure they get a good education.

I cannot legally purchase high explosives, and if Obama rolls into the white house I will likely not be able to legally purchase a semi automatic rifle capable of taking a detachable magazine of more than a couple of rounds.

Please, explain to me how I am supposed to defend myself, my family, my country by myself with no legal access to military hardware?

I rely on a well founded military to defend me, since I am not legally able to do so myself. I am legally able to send my children to a well funded (private, if necessary) school.

To stay on subject, I also own insurance. Lots of it. I'm even the idiot that owns whole life insurance AND term life insurance. I have full coverage on my car, motorcycle, house (mind you I live on a hill, impossible flood risk...). I got health insurance, vision, dental... Safety money, roth ira, 401k...

If I experience a major disaster, I am all set (or if I'm dead than my family is super well off). I don't need red cross I am capable of protecting myself in that context. I DO NEED national defense, I am not legally capable of protecting myself in that context.

I think that 'the system' is working fine. It is currently possible for an individual to be financially/healthfully stable AND militarily defended (sic).
Take away military spending and it is only possible for an individual to be financially/healthfully stable.
 
A

Alrich

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Let's not forget, especially in the case of Katrina, some people did not have the means to leave at all.

I'll go no further, this is a touchy subject for me, as it hits close to home in many ways. I leave y'all to it...
And also remember katrina had FAR FAR FAR less preparation and warning then Gustahv. They were given half a week to get the hell out of there. And it wasn't even a request, it was a mandate.

People who stayed should deal with the consequences of their decision. Hell I'm sure there was forms of public transportation to evacuate too. If not, setting them up for future disasters is a much more worthy cause then having to being thousands of military down there with helicopters and boats to get people out.
 

Skylark SP

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I don't need red cross I am capable of protecting myself in that context.
OK...I have to comment on that since it is actually related to the original topic.

Having insurance and making financial decisions to give ourselves a buffer in an emergency are most certainly highly recommended things, and anyone who can possibly afford them should avail themselves of such. Those of us who have taken such measures hope we never have a circumstance where we need to use those things. However, insurance claims and all those forms of protection often take a long time to come through, especially after a large scale disaster. After Katrina, I met and became friends with a couple, who were both claims adjusters with a large insurance carrier. They were from Texas but lived in my area for nearly 6 months, with a full complement of similarly transplanted staff from the parent company, and spent their time each day almost exclusively inspecting & assessing damaged property for homeowners to get claims processed.

Do you think in the days right after the storm that some of the hundreds if not thousands of people waiting for insurance claims to be processed and disbursed had any need of some immediate assistance in terms of shelter, food, and water, while they figured out what to do/where to go? There were people waiting for weeks just to have trees and other debris removed from their property. There were building material and contractor shortages. Some areas took over 3 weeks to get utilities restored and roads unblocked, and flooding under control. My own house was without power for a week on 2 occasions after hurricanes spawned tornadoes ahead of the storm front, and I live 50 miles from the coast. At least we still had running water from municipal utilities for washing, and bottled water we had purchased in quantity prior to the storms, to drink. Some didn't. When hurricane Andrew hit Homestead, FL...it looked like a bomb had flattened the town. I had friends who lived there who lost everything they owned. They were in the military and at least were able to live with relatives in my area right after the storm, and then move into temporary base housing while the claim for their destroyed house was being processed.

The Red Cross provides things people need immediately, such as a temporary shelter to stay in because their home is gone, and clean water in areas where the municipal water supply is contaminated due to pipeline breaks, sewer breaks & backups. Besides large scale disasters, they do this year round on every scale, down to helping individuals after a single house/apartment fire.

This is an organization with a history of doing this for over 100 years. It is not a government agency, but it received an official charter to "mitigate suffering" caused by disaster from Congress early in its operations. To fulfill its charter, it relies on donations. It has run out of money, and is borrowing against the promise of future donations to provide relief NOW.

Donating to and otherwise supporting a non-profit organization devoted to humanitarian efforts doesn't in any way put a seal of approval on any of the operations of our government, nor does it validate the selfish and unconcerned people who have placed a great burden on others through their foolish decisions. Please keep this in mind.

Also, we need to keep in mind, over 50% of the U.S. population is concentrated in around 600 coastal counties. That's over 150 million people in easy reach of the coast. There is a reason that the population is so concentrated on coastal areas: industry built up around shipping lanes, and people settled first in those areas. While it can certainly be stated that some areas are stupid/high risk to build in and rebuild, especially places where builders have actually dredged marshlands/mangroves to create new land area, it is being unrealistic and oversimplifying things in the extreme to toss out comments such as "move" to people in what one may perceive as a high risk area when every coastal area has the potential to be affected by a devastating storm. We aren't going to pack up Miami, Houston, Louisiana, etc. and move them to the midwest. (Well, if we did, they would just get flooded there, without a hurricane. :p)

Fortunately, I have never had to avail myself of the services of the Red Cross, but I donate to them regularly, and I'm glad they are there. I hope if I ever do need them, they will still be there, and able to help.

-Skylark
 
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Goron

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OK...I have to comment on that since it is actually related to the original topic.
[snip]
I agree on pretty much all levels. I never wrote, or intended to deliver a message that red cross was useless [period]. But rather that I personally do not need the red cross as I have the means to protect myself from disaster in other ways. I completely understand not all people have those means and thus the red cross serves a great purpose. Please do not think I was trying to say red cross is bad.

I was trying to say that gov't defense funding is required for my national safety, while gov't (or charity) wellness funding, gov't (or charity) education funding, etc. is not required for my wellness/education/etc.

My post was entirely focused on the image I quoted.

I made specific choices of where to live with my wellbeing in mind. You won't catch me living in an earthquake zone any time soon, or a flood area, or tornado area. And if an evac order comes thru for some weird reason, I'll frikin evac. I am choosing to live a protected life. I don't walk around dark alleys at night if I can avoid them, and if I can't avoid it, then I'll be carrying my m&p9. I mitigate my risks. I am also blessed with a higher socio-economic standing, so I am easily able to make financial decisions that protect me as well. The point is the decisions are possible.
Maybe not all people can afford to make these decisions like I do, but they are possible to be made.

I can not possibly make national defense decisions. Period. I cannot buy an armed tank, explosive bomb, or active mine. These decisions are absolutely impossible for me to make on all levels (legally...). Thus, gov't defense funding is very important to me. Other forms of funding (that support me in ways that I can support myself without the gov't/charitable org) are less valuable to me.
 

Skylark SP

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I was pretty much replying to the whole thread in one, Goron...you just triggered the reply. I should have distinguished the reply cutoff/transition. :D

-Skylark
 
G

Goron

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I was pretty much replying to the whole thread in one, Goron...you just triggered the reply. I should have distinguished the reply cutoff/transition. :D

-Skylark
;-P

Sorry, I did not want to seem hostile to you specifically.
I just kinda realized my post seemed to come across as having an agenda beyond what I intended-
"kill the babies" rather than "people seem to forget how important military funding is"
 

AEowynSP

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Very well said Skylark.

@ Goron
Not everyone is as fortunate as you.
I don't begrudge the military it's funding I just get very frustrated with how our tax dollars are spent.

This situation of people refusing to evacuate reminds me of where I lived growing up. We built in a hilly area with a nice little creek, we built on the slope of the hill but our neighbors built on the floodplain... to make matters even worse they diverted the creek to flow past there breakfast nook window. Guess what after a few years we got a extra heavy rainfall and there home was flooded. Yes there insurance paid for it but it was there stupidity that the damage was done in the first place. How they got permits to build there I will never know because where they put there home would flood every 5-10 years, not a problem for the previous owners of the land who just used it for cows. So the outcome was higher insurance rates for everyone.

EDIT: Several posts while I was typing this.
@Speedy
Thank you for serving our country
and Goron I agree with you and don't think you came off as hostile.
Again best wishes by all who are directly involved with this.
 

Speedy Orkit

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This storm sucks, I spent 8 hours clearing and cutting trees just from the crab it left up north...I don't want to see what it did to Texas
 
E

Elmer Fudd

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My Little opinion on this matter for what its worth, 1# Ex-military Medal winner in First iraq conflict. (Storm) so I have a bit of experience, about the matter....First, there should be aid avalible for our homeland of course, for those unfortunant members of our society that are UNABEL to work because of a disabilty or life threating health reasons.......that government help, I agree with all the way......

So call me old fashon, but if we applyed a little Biblical principal here ie...."if you dont work, you shouldnt eat" alot of our finacial problems would be solved........If you shed innocent blood, you deserve the death penalty....done....over Billions upon Billions Saved!

Im not trying to get a Religeous uproar here, its only my opinion

The US is to much in the business of bailing out LAZY PEOPLE< and that pisses me off to no end, to lazy to get up off yer dead ass and get a job,

if my familys welfare depended on it, i Would work and Mcdonalds if i had to to suport my family the best I could, I would do my best, and do it legally, yes it would be hard, and there would be many things I would have to Give up, But thats called sacrifice, thinking of someones else's welfare over yourself...the battle is being lost on the front lines of our familys....theres my rant.....Sry


Fudd
 

kelmo

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Just some random thoughts...

The wise man said, "You can't fix stupid." Well, you can't. Can't fix stubborn either... The thread is not about that.

I am all about 'swords to plow shares'... Your swords first. *stares* This thread is not about that.

Compasion... Is it only for the deserving? Who is that judge? *shrugs*

The average Red Cross volunteer leaves their prejudices, agendas, and personal dislikes at home. They pull out the moral compass and do the best they can for those in need.

I am not so naive to believe that every person or administrator in the Red Cross is above approach. That is not the point either...

The point is the Red Cross needs help, to help others. Give if you can. If not money call and see if there is any thing else they could use. An old blanket, an out of style warm coat, time fielding calls from good intentioned donors.
 

Jeremiah

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by Representative David Crockett

One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Mr. Crockett arose:

"Mr. Speaker --- I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him.

"Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much money of our own as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and, if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks.

"He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few votes, and of course, was lost.

"Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation, Crockett gave this explanation:

"Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. In spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many families made homeless, and, besides, some of them had lost all but the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be one for them. The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as soon as it could be done.

"The next summer, when it began to be time to think about the election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I had no opposition there, but, as the election was some time off, I did not know what might turn up. When riding one day in a part of my district in which I was more a stranger than any other, I saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up, I spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather coldly.

"I began: 'Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called candidates, and--'

" 'Yes, I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time or mine. I shall not vote for you again.'

"This was a sockdolager... I begged him to tell me what was the matter.

" 'Well, Colonel, it is hardly worth-while to waste time or words upon it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you are wanting in the honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend to avail myself of the privilege of the constituent to speak plainly to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I intended by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be honest....But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is.'

"I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon any Constitutional question.

" 'No, Colonel, there's no mistake. Though I live here in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings in Congress. My papers say that last winter you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some suffers by a fire in Georgetown. Is that true?'

"Well, my friend, I may as well own up. You have got me there. But certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury, and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I did.'

" 'It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing to do with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be intrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any thing and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the suffers by contributing each one week's pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life. The congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditable; and the people about Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitu- tion, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution. So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch it's power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you..'
i think donations from private citizens is a great thing, but im not sure the government should bail people out like they do....at least not to the extent they do....
 

AEowynSP

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Yet agin Sir you amaze me.

I would like to thank all who are participating in this thread and being civil and compasionate in there views.

Best wishes to all.
 
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