New Virtue system Sucks!

[Winker]

The way the virtues now works is just plain stupid! Or at least honour is just FUBAR. We went and did a champ and took a protector down with us, he was at Knight of Justice, he protected 8 people and we checked to make sure he had not used up his Justice as the patch notes suggest you used up virtues each time they are used. But on checking he was still Knight.

So we get on with the champ and at the end we had got 4 SOT's on the protector and only 5 white power scrolls. ???? Only 5? We made sure everyone was still protected and they were, so we looked in the journal to see if there was a thief.

To our disbelieve, you lose Justice EVERY time the protector gets a scroll so by the time he had gotten the 5 power scrolls he had taken 9 hits (4 SOT's & 5 power scrolls) on his justice virtue knocking him below Knight.

Surely this is unintended? Do we really need to kill Reds in the middle of champs to make sure we get all 6 power scrolls?

 

[Pinco]

very BAD thing.... if we have to lose the virtue on use they should not decay at all.
Also justice should decay champion based not person based or if he protect 15 people and all get a sot he found himself follower before the champ is out
I wouldn't even imagine the harrower...

 

[Sevin0oo0]

sound bad for that one virtue

But, I LOVE the way Sacrifice works now! No more wondering if you have a rez left, or what day it resets on.
Not sure exactly how many you get per level, thinking it's maybe 3-4?

 

[Pinco]

sound bad for that one virtue

But, I LOVE the way Sacrifice works now! No more wondering if you have a rez left, or what day it resets on.
Not sure exactly how many you get per level, thinking it's maybe 3-4?

that's really interesting... I've used sacrifice some times and is great!
We just have to avoid to spend more than we can gain in a day

 

[Pinco]

About sacrifice, here is how it works now:

You still have the uses per week, and if you have uses available you don't lose sacrifice.
If you run out of uses, you can still use sacrifice by losing a LOT of dots:
- level 2 to knight: 2 dots per resurrection
- level 1 to 2: half level per resurrection
- before level 1: you can't resurrect anymore

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Wait, you can rez more than the once per Sacrifice path/level now? We won't be limited to three times a week anymore?

*senses an incoming nerf*

 

[Pinco]

Wait, you can rez more than the once per Sacrifice path/level now? We won't be limited to three times a week anymore?

*senses an incoming nerf*

no need to be nerfed... you lose more than you can gain in 1 day...

 

[Frarc]

I like it that the Virtues decay when you use them. You now have to work to maintain your Virtues and only true dedicated Knights of Virtue will keep there Virtue at the top level.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

You still have the uses per week,

weirdness, mine reset on Sat, used it a few times until I ran out of rez.
Checked my level, was down to half on 1st level. sacrificed a couple times and have rez'd 3-4 times since then

 

[Pinco]

weirdness, mine reset on Sat, used it a few times until I ran out of rez.
Checked my level, was down to half on 1st level. sacrificed a couple times and have rez'd 3-4 times since then

I've tested on TC now:

2 uses remaining and 3 dots of lev 2.

After 2 ress nothing is changed to dots, at the third I got the message that if I proceed I will lose in sacrifice.

 

[Widow Maker]

/signed.

new system is completely fubar.

This current Dev team ... wow..what can be said.

 

[Cogniac]

Personally, I'm confused by Compassion. I resurrected someone yesterday (a blue [in Trammel!]), and I lost Compassion somehow. Resurrecting poor dead people is basically the definition of Compassion.

 

[Mirt]

Looks like this is going to make retaining our levels hard, but they did increase the cap so I guess I will just have to max them all out and hope for the best. At least there is no cap on justice gain per day.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

if you take the time, take a step back and look at the "virtue system" you realise there is nothing virtuous about it...

How is farming honesty being honest ? I can turn around and scam everyone no NPC will be the wiser and still will sell me at a discounted price.

its not a virtue system... its a cheap oh thats right its a Ultima game and the player want the virtues... lets slap a second set of skills using the same scripts so we save job and money.

It's a set of skills for the knight, not virtues...

 

[Madrid]

I like it that the Virtues decay when you use them. You now have to work to maintain your Virtues and only true dedicated Knights of Virtue will keep there Virtue at the top level.

Bull****!

The effin' virtue points should not decay at all.

Trying to maintain Virtue on multiple characters on multiple accounts across multiple shards is next to impossible.

I have better things to do in game than try and upkeep the virtue on characters after I've already "paid my dues"and gone through the process of attaining knight.

That's not how I want to spend my time in the game.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

have better things to do in game than try and upkeep the virtue on characters after I've already "paid my dues"and gone through the process of attaining knight.

Thanks for proving my point... hehe...

you "purchase" the virtues now, they aren't central to the game, a philosopher would probably even be insulted by it.

I know I am.

 

[G.v.P]

If the current system makes it so you need to have multiple protectors to do a handful of spawns at full "reward," that's sort of annoying but maybe the old system deserved a check (only Justice, I mean). I guess the good thing is people might not farm spawns and instead stop to fill Justice, but eh, most people who farm just hit up Despise for fights and if not, gain a few scrolls, while a lot of people just kill their own reds to bump up the bubbles. However, I'm not sure how people will get around the hard cap on gain per day, which prevents the ability to balance active loss. For those who like to play a healer, for example, during an EM event, I'd imagine the Compassion loss would be pretty crazy. Then half way into the event you'd have noobs yelling at you for not rezzing them to 80% ;D. As for Honesty, wow, if you lose Honesty every time you buy stuff that would be pretty nuts...but I haven't really tested that out in full so I'll yield to those who have.

My feeling is if there's active use loss then there shouldn't be hard caps on gain per day. Otherwise, I agree, the new virtue system sucks.

 

[Assia Penryn]

I'd be much willing to work the skill if it didn't decay. I don't mind if I lose it for a benefit, but I hate the decay aspect.

 

[Kayne]

There was nothing wrong with the way it decayed originally. I regularly keep my valor virtue up its not exactly difficult but compassion has always been a pain though stupidly useful when rezzing someone.

Virtues should decay and maybe slightly faster for a set period after use but certainly not at the levels they seem to be since this last patch. For a rare occasion I agree with Ahuaeyjnkxs we essentially buy our way to the virtues and quite rightly that in itself is not a virtuous act.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

HONOR
- Before: extremely hard to raise at high level on non-dexxers, but was not decaying when not used (honoring yourself) so still ok to do for the fun if you were not actually using the ability
- Now: Same but I can confirm that it now also decays, as my 2 former Knights Of Honor are not Knights anymore. So better forget about it on non-dexxers because it had taken me weeks to finish on them and I'm not going to redo it again now that it decays.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here. The virtue will now only be used by Samurais.

JUSTICE
- Before: easy to raise by cheating (killing willingful reds) but painful to normally raise and maintain if not PvPing 100% of the time. It was decaying at the rate of 1 dot per week (very annoying when you don't play the char much) but at least you were not loosing it by using it.
- Now: Same, but now you also loose it at each PS you receive and I don't know if it is intended or not. One could consider that there are already too many PS in the game and that people were not using the virtue as it was intended (a bonus, not a way to farm). However since it also decays you can't even realistically maintain it just for fun on non-pure PvP chars, even if decay rate is somehow slower.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here

VALOR
- Before: Consumed when used and decayed, but was extremely easy and fast to raise.
- Now: Same. Maybe decay slower, but it will have no impact. I would still prefer that it was not decaying at all so at least you could keep it on chars that you don't play too often.
- Conclusion: No changes

SACRIFICE
- Before: Was decaying. Use limited to 3 times per week but not consuming the virtue.
- Now: Can now be used more than 3 times per week but then it starts consuming the virtue. Still decays (maybe at a lower rate but this has basically no impact)
- Conclusion: A nice boost in the ability to use it more than 3 times per week, but at a huge cost. Still impossible to maintain on non-PvM chars (ie: crafters or PvPers) or chars you don't play much, because of the decay.

COMPASSION
- Before: Painful to raise on chars who couldn't gate, especially since daily gain was limited. Decaying was a real pain but at least you were not loosing it when using it (resurrecting other people)
- Now: Same but you now loose everytime you resurect someone, so this virtue which was already of little use is now completely useless. And it still decays (even if at a lower rate, which remains to be seen) so don't even think of maintaining it just for fun.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here

HONESTY
- Before: Not existing
- Now: Not enough experience to tell exactly
- Conclusion: No conclusion yet

GENERAL CONCLUSION:
3 Virtues nerfed into oblivion, 1 basically unchanged, 1 boosted (and it was already the most useful one). Those changes make absolutely no sense to me. One would ask oneself what the devs were thinking.

And btw tweaking the decay rate is useless as people are planning on the long term: it should either decay or not decay. A slow decay rate has no purpose and just gives a huge penalty to people who takes long breaks.

 

[Kayne]

I used to maintain compassion for the help after a rez but since I returned recently and found you have to wait 5 mins between escorts I end up forgetting as I go off to do something else so haven't gained any. Then they go and nerf it badly so it becomes pointless to keep raising

 

[Mirt]

Wizal thanks for doing some of the testing and saving me my game time . One word for compassion folks Bravehorn. Its like the Orc Dungeon used to be.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Don't we always ask ourselves what the devs were thinking ?

at least since a while...

its so unlikely they're so good at doing new art and having a general idea where UO is supposed to go...

and this...

 

[Ender]

Wow. So should I even bother with Justice now? :/

 

[Epic of Legends]

I don't think anybody realizes that once players realize you lose compassion EVERY time you res someone, that they aren't going to res direct friends, guildys, etc if they have compassion. Therefore people wont res at events, running across them in spawns, etc. People barely rezzed each other before..? Wait until everyone realizes this. :/

 

[Epic of Legends]

Wow. So should I even bother with Justice now? :/

Nope. Now officially useless. They should've left it as it was.

 

[Cirno]

COMPASSION
- Before: Painful to raise on chars who couldn't gate, especially since daily gain was limited. Decaying was a real pain but at least you were not loosing it when using it (resurrecting other people)
- Now: Same but you now loose everytime you resurect someone, so this virtue which was already of little use is now completely useless. And it still decays (even if at a lower rate, which remains to be seen) so don't even think of maintaining it just for fun.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here

Not to disagree, but more to raise a point many mightn't be aware of; you can use Crystal Portals for escorts

 

[Otis Firefly]

Don't we always ask ourselves what the devs were thinking ?

at least since a while...

its so unlikely they're so good at doing new art and having a general idea where UO is supposed to go...

and this...

its the new moto
break things that are fixed and ignore things that are broken..

 

[Kayne]

its the new moto
break things that are fixed and ignore things that are broken..

New motto? When was there a motto other than this one?

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Re: Compassion

I am waiting between orcish prisoners as I write this.... It decays on use? Seriously? WTF were they thinking?! EM events alone could knock a person back to Seeker

This needs changed back ASAP.

 

[Pinco]

Re: Compassion

I am waiting between orcish prisoners as I write this.... It decays on use? Seriously? WTF were they thinking?! EM events alone could knock a person back to Seeker

This needs changed back ASAP.

2 words: Compassion Sage

It is more rare than an orny in doom, but could help...

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

2 words: Compassion Sage

If I didn't already have like 12 bottles of the stuff that DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when double-clicked on, I might consider that a viable option. Shockingly, it was coded poorly...

 

[Pinco]

If I didn't already have like 12 bottles of the stuff that DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when double-clicked on, I might consider that a viable option. Shockingly, it was coded poorly...

the old one from the event isn't working anymore, you have just to take new ones...

 

[Kayne]

Compassion sage? what is this evil that you speak of

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

the old one from the event isn't working anymore, you have just to take new ones...

Yeah, only two people found the potions during that event on GL... Boy did they whine till they heard it was a new item and not just for the event.

At any rate, mine were all gathered about a month after the event... But, because you mentioned it, I've been mowing down controllers... 62 slain without a single potion...not a terribly viable option even if they did work.

 

[Pinco]

Compassion sage? what is this evil that you speak of

liquid compassion
Added not much time ago, if you drink this potion you get 1-3 dot in compassion. Usable once a day and if you use it you can't gain more compassion during the day.

it is an EXTREMELY RARE loot item from controllers.

For compassion there is also the purifier quest in the solen hive...

 

[Adol]

I don't think anybody realizes that once players realize you lose compassion EVERY time you res someone, that they aren't going to res direct friends, guildys, etc if they have compassion. Therefore people wont res at events, running across them in spawns, etc. People barely rezzed each other before..? Wait until everyone realizes this. :/

Sadly, I realized this, and the problems with Honesty as it's implemented from a roleplaying perspective, as soon as the Test Centre notes were up;

http://vboards.stratics.com/2008861-post6.html

Unfortunately the turn around from Design to Test to Publish seems far too short for feedback to make any difference; only game stopping bugs seem to put the ideas on hold, whereas what we think of something seems irrelevant, as long as it functions as the Devs intended.

 

[JC the Builder]

For Justice, this sounds a lot better than having it maxed out all the time. The only way you ever lost Knight of Justice was by going inactive.

 

[G.v.P]

I don't think anybody realizes that once players realize you lose compassion EVERY time you res someone, that they aren't going to res direct friends, guildys, etc if they have compassion. Therefore people wont res at events, running across them in spawns, etc. People barely rezzed each other before..? Wait until everyone realizes this. :/

I don't know if the virtue changes will change rez priority...either you're the kind of person who rezzes others or you're the kind of person who only rezzes your friends...but I def think people will complain if they get rezzed early in a big fight w/ compassion bonus, then go back to the same healer and find there is no bonus, and then insta-die from rez kill, heh.

 

[Widow Maker]

in·com·pe·tence noun /inˈkämpətəns/  /iNG-/ 
incompetences, plural

1.Inability to do something successfully; ineptitude
- allegations of professional incompetence

This seems to be the current mantra

 

[CovenantX]

Pretty much all the changes to the virtue system EXCEPT the new addition "Honesty" should be Reverted, the extra "buffer level" above knight sounds good, But losing virtues when they're used is just stupid.


Please change the virtues back to the way they were... this is the kind of change that MAKES people want to quit the game.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

HONOR
- Before: extremely hard to raise at high level on non-dexxers, but was not decaying when not used (honoring yourself) so still ok to do for the fun if you were not actually using the ability
- Now: Same but I can confirm that it now also decays, as my 2 former Knights Of Honor are not Knights anymore. So better forget about it on non-dexxers because it had taken me weeks to finish on them and I'm not going to redo it again now that it decays.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here. The virtue will now only be used by Samurais.

JUSTICE
- Before: easy to raise by cheating (killing willingful reds) but painful to normally raise and maintain if not PvPing 100% of the time. It was decaying at the rate of 1 dot per week (very annoying when you don't play the char much) but at least you were not loosing it by using it.
- Now: Same, but now you also loose it at each PS you receive and I don't know if it is intended or not. One could consider that there are already too many PS in the game and that people were not using the virtue as it was intended (a bonus, not a way to farm). However since it also decays you can't even realistically maintain it just for fun on non-pure PvP chars, even if decay rate is somehow slower.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here

VALOR
- Before: Consumed when used and decayed, but was extremely easy and fast to raise.
- Now: Same. Maybe decay slower, but it will have no impact. I would still prefer that it was not decaying at all so at least you could keep it on chars that you don't play too often.
- Conclusion: No changes

SACRIFICE
- Before: Was decaying. Use limited to 3 times per week but not consuming the virtue.
- Now: Can now be used more than 3 times per week but then it starts consuming the virtue. Still decays (maybe at a lower rate but this has basically no impact)
- Conclusion: A nice boost in the ability to use it more than 3 times per week, but at a huge cost. Still impossible to maintain on non-PvM chars (ie: crafters or PvPers) or chars you don't play much, because of the decay.

COMPASSION
- Before: Painful to raise on chars who couldn't gate, especially since daily gain was limited. Decaying was a real pain but at least you were not loosing it when using it (resurrecting other people)
- Now: Same but you now loose everytime you resurect someone, so this virtue which was already of little use is now completely useless. And it still decays (even if at a lower rate, which remains to be seen) so don't even think of maintaining it just for fun.
- Conclusion: Big nerf here

HONESTY
- Before: Not existing
- Now: Not enough experience to tell exactly
- Conclusion: No conclusion yet

GENERAL CONCLUSION:
3 Virtues nerfed into oblivion, 1 basically unchanged, 1 boosted (and it was already the most useful one). Those changes make absolutely no sense to me. One would ask oneself what the devs were thinking.

And btw tweaking the decay rate is useless as people are planning on the long term: it should either decay or not decay. A slow decay rate has no purpose and just gives a huge penalty to people who takes long breaks.

I cannot think of what made them want to nerf the Virtue System, especially since the Producer's Twitter feed implies they are working on it.

He commented proudly on how they just had a few left to go....To me that means he wants to finish the system out.

That's good.

But nerfing it, especially since it wasn't overpowered to start with, is not a good way to start.

-Galen's player

 

[Tina Small]

SACRIFICE
- Before: Was decaying. Use limited to 3 times per week but not consuming the virtue.
- Now: Can now be used more than 3 times per week but then it starts consuming the virtue. Still decays (maybe at a lower rate but this has basically no impact)
- Conclusion: A nice boost in the ability to use it more than 3 times per week, but at a huge cost. Still impossible to maintain on non-PvM chars (ie: crafters or PvPers) or chars you don't play much, because of the decay.

Wizal, for some reason it seems to me that you used to lose Sacrifice when you used it. I don't ever remember seeing the same message for Sacrifice when you logged in as you used to get for Compassion telling you that you'd lost some of the virtue. No matter now, though, I guess. The changes overall are a big nerf and, as usual, whichever designer is behind them hasn't bothered to show up and explain the reasoning behind them. I guess this is just gonna be one more set of changes that people either choke down and live with or it drives them out of the game and that's the end of it as far as the dev team is concerned.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

i would get the msg occasionally, but rarely would have to sacrifice fame to rebuild (every other month maybe). I use this virtue regularly (run out Every week), and have since it came out.

 

[Luka Melehan]

thanks for the break down wizal!

 

[Theo_GL]

The way the virtues now works is just plain stupid! Or at least honour is just FUBAR. We went and did a champ and took a protector down with us, he was at Knight of Justice, he protected 8 people and we checked to make sure he had not used up his Justice as the patch notes suggest you used up virtues each time they are used. But on checking he was still Knight.

So we get on with the champ and at the end we had got 4 SOT's on the protector and only 5 white power scrolls. ???? Only 5? We made sure everyone was still protected and they were, so we looked in the journal to see if there was a thief.

To our disbelieve, you lose Justice EVERY time the protector gets a scroll so by the time he had gotten the 5 power scrolls he had taken 9 hits (4 SOT's & 5 power scrolls) on his justice virtue knocking him below Knight.

Surely this is unintended? Do we really need to kill Reds in the middle of champs to make sure we get all 6 power scrolls?

Ha ha ha - Epic developer FAIL.

How stupid is that? Nice job devs. Way to break something that wasn't broke.

Anyone else think this game would be best if they would just fire all the devs - leave it the way it is - and charge us $2/month?

They break more than they fix.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well I didn't see any real numbers for how many powerscrolls a person receives if they use protection and I know people complain that they have to kill Reds to earn the Virtue but it seems no one is willing to do that.

I mean, if you had no Virtue, how many PS would you earn at a Champ Spawn and by using protection how many can you get?

It would seem to me that somebody concerned would be selling the powerscroll because you obviously don't need 10 for every spawn.

Now that we combine powerscrolls with a binder, as long as you get 1, you can at least use it. So, it sounds like alot of greed is part of the arguement.

For example: If you remove The Virtue, what would the issue be? That you don't get enough powerscrolls. For The Virtue to work, you have to kill Reds but it's not right that people can kill the same guy over and over. I would just increase the value of the kill, maybe let 1 kill=what 5 used to.

I would make sure that it's not the same person within at least a 24 hour period. This makes sense because you're earning The Virtue.

I think that they should tie some of The Virtues together, so that if you have certain combinations of Virtue you get a bonus to 1 or all of The Virtues.

You could even create a Virtue that would simply allow a kind of extra Virtue, where if you used it you could pick any one of The Virtues to use or it would just give The Virtue you choose a boost in level.

So, they could add some type of completion where all The Virtues are tied into a center Virtue.

I don't think you should lose your Virtues because you haven't used them but I understand they want to make it more challenging. Maybe they could only allow for the current level to decay at a very slow rate. So, as to not lose the entire Virtue.

 

[Wizal the Fox]

Yeah, the Justice issue about loosing it when receiving Powerscrolls is no big deal, it will be a small bonus for players actually killing reds and not for organized PK guilds anymore. With the number of PS on the market it's still ok to *just* receive normal scrolls without protecting anyway. Although I would suggest than protector should loose less Justice when receiving a 110 and more when receiving a 120.

Overall I'm not at all against the fact that you loose the Virtue when you actually you use it (and for RP guys they can keep it by not using it). However in that case 2 things need to be addressed immediately: 1) Stop ALL form of decay immediately, especially regarding Honor at high level 2) Find a solution regarding Compassion, because to loose it when you rez someone is plainly stupid in the first place.

 

[Adol]

2) Find a solution regarding Compassion, because to loose it when you rez someone is plainly stupid in the first place

It is apparently worse than we feared; you also lose Compassion when ressurecting someone's Pet too. I just returned to life someone's Swampie at Luna bank, and even that act of kindness was punished. I'm not sure how much by, as I was at the Compassion cap and I didn't see a bulb disappear, but still... *sighs*

 

[Pinco]

It is apparently worse than we feared; you also lose Compassion when ressurecting someone's Pet too. I just returned to life someone's Swampie at Luna bank, and even that act of kindness was punished. I'm not sure how much by, as I was at the Compassion cap and I didn't see a bulb disappear, but still... *sighs*

best solution to keep the losing on use is ASK to use the virtue or not like with a checkbox into the resurrection gump...

About justice: if you do the harrower you get 16 stat scroll = 16 dots lost?