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New Lesser Hiryu

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I tamed a pretty good lesser a few days ago. Was thinking of adding Discord and possibly Armor Pierce because the disco+grasping claw will lower the physical resist of whatever he's attacking and I figured with low resist Armor Pierce should have pretty good damage. Anyone made something like that?
 

Pawain

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AI is better than AP. Most things you fight have high resists. The AP buff is theoretically good in groups.

Disco on a Hiryu should work well at Dreadhorn. I built an AP and AI Cu that have same stats and Chiv. The AI kills single targets that take more than 2 mins faster.
 

Tabby Kapak

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I built an AP and AI Cu that have same stats and Chiv. The AI kills single targets that take more than 2 mins faster.
Are those single targets discorded by anyone (you or others) or not? Might be relevant to the outcome, as we agree with the reasoning of SouthPaw, one would think the value of AP rises when Discord (and in his case grasping claw) lowers the targets resists?
 

Pawain

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Nope try it and compare. The things I'm talking about start at 80+ resists. So they still have too high resist after discorded for AP to do more damage. But, I am not the only one that can build pets and compare side by side. We have 40+ stable slots. No reason to test pet damage on things that take < a minute to kill.

I'd love to see others test AP and AI. It is pretty sad we have 1 build that does out damages all the other things we can add by so much.
 

Khaelor

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The AP buff is theoretically good in groups.
Actually the AP buff is amazing in groups (not just theoretically) and with the right templates and pets, good solo. It's a shame after almost 3 years you have not nor do not understand the applications and benefits of it.

Also, AI can become a DPS loss if done right.



The above example, an AI fire pet would be essentially wasting mana casting AI for very little return.

Disco on a Hiryu should work well at Dreadhorn.
Dreadhorn is a ML peerless, discord affects are greatly diminished on it.

I'd love to see others test AP and AI. It is pretty sad we have 1 build that does out damages all the other things we can add by so much.
We have and we use AP pets religiously.

Nope try it and compare. But, I am not the only one that can build pets and compare side by side.
You aren't doing the right comparisons because you don't understand the correct uses of AP.

No reason to test pet damage on things that take < a minute to kill.
That would be most things we kill these days, including bosses~

I'd love to see others test AP and AI. It is pretty sad we have 1 build that does out damages all the other things we can add by so much.
Again, terrible comparison because they have two different functions/uses.

Secondly, AI doesn't always outdamage all other things and if a group of 16 people (like a Dreadhorn picture you recently showed) cannot get a mob like dreadhorn to the point where AI is near useless, then I don't know what to say. You play in great numbers, but it seems like not a single person wants to be a team player. (Yes, I understand you take returning players and the like to Dreadhorn, but there are 16 characters in that screenshot and I know several of them are not returning players)

I am not saying to use AP over AI, because AP is not a replacement for AI in many circumstances. But if you understood where and how AP truly shines your character and/or group will truly excel.
 

Turkish

Journeyman
Is someone willing to explain what Armor Pierce does when used with a pet? I dug around your website, Khaelor, but I couldn't find it. People mention it is good for groups, so I'd be interested in creating a pet for that but I'm just not sure of the context.

We usually have large groups for Scalis? Would it be helpful for that?
 

Pawain

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I said single target the AI is better. Instead of telling me how wrong I am. Why don't you show your numbers from testing?

You gave him no specific examples to test or use his pet.

We don't always have 16 people at our hunts. We have had 10 or more new/returner players on LS since December. We suit em up and tell them what is best for their pet. AI/and whatever magic is best for general purpose go to the hunt announced in chat. Or use to explore the lands. They are going everywhere.

I still say the AI/Disco Hiryu will work fine at Dreadhorn. In a small group or large group.
What pet type matches Dreadhorn better when with a novice group? Prove me wrong with numbers if you can. I take my Lime Green AI/Chiv Hiryu to Dreadhorn. We told the Bard that her Discord would be less than normal at that hunt.

There is nothing wrong with having a pet of each type. My AP/Chiv is Red and matches my Toon. My AI/Chiv is Black, it does not match my toon. I tried both enough to decide the AI/Chiv does more damage in all the places I go. And we have Discord pets and players on LS. One of the returns brought a Bard to Travesty. We let them play with whatever toons they want to use. They want to contribute with Buffs. First time I was calmed at Travesty in years. I would rather take the Red Dog but I use real UO data collected while playing. I can see numbers and can time things.



We took longer than a minute to kill Dreadhorn. I :bow: to your prowess.
 
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Pawain

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We usually have large groups for Scalis? Would it be helpful for that?
I take this Triton to Scalis:
1580339708751.png

It needs few heals or run GoR. I can have all the bars open and heal other and kill the snakes. (res the other pet types)
This works on anything that can be poisoned. Doesn't need heals on most peerless.
A Triton tanking a Captain gets Tabards for everyone else.
I have one I take to Corgul.
I love using the pet that is from this event to kill the Mobs included in this event.
 

Khaelor

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but I use real UO data collected while playing. I can see numbers and can time things.
Do you think we do not use real UO data collected while playing (as in damage logs with time stamps, just not what ones subjective memory remembers)

Do you think we don't play? That all we do is "theorycraft"? Your subtle digs after our posts seem to indicate that is what you think or are trying to get others to think. Especially when you make claims like you using real UO data. We do play the same game as you, however we have a vastly different (and more effective) experience than you because we have both theorycrafted and put into place effective strategies for our tamers.

We honestly don't care how you play or make your pets as long as you enjoy it and have fun. But when you give people misinformation and try to force others into your playstyle and dimiss very beneficial abilities, pets, specs or strategies, I feel you are doing a disservice to the taming community as a whole, particularly those that are actively trying to expand their knowledge of the taming system and want to be better tamers with more effective pets.

Here is one of my pets I use at Scalis. It doesn't have a tenancy to die and I don't spam heal it. It works well with our setup and is AP. Would I suggest this pet to everyone, no. But it *can* be done.

scalispet.PNG

You dont need a 700 hit point+ triton to do content. I've had a 100 hit point pet tank corgul, tank captains (not always intentionally but he's a spirited little guy). A lot of different types work for all sorts of content. It all comes down to what the tamer is comfortable with and what they and their setup can handle.
 

Pawain

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You dont need a 700 hit point+ triton to do content. I've had a 100 hit point pet tank corgul, tank captains (not always intentionally but he's a spirited little guy). A lot of different types work for all sorts of content. It all comes down to what the tamer is comfortable with and what they and their setup can handle.
Thats great! Thats why you dont come to the forums and ask questions. You the God Tamer. :bow:

I'm sure the poster was asking for a basic build and pet type that he could easily use in a group at Scalis.
Not a picture of an unknown pet type with 300HP and a partial build.

I'm here to help the new and returners build some good pets so they can do content. Then they can specialize and do content with 3 slot Mongbats after they have good pets if they wish. Id like a PP Imp to play with.

Do you think we don't play? That all we do is "theorycraft"? Your subtle digs after our posts seem to indicate that is what you think or are trying to get others to think.
You have methods to collect data, I know that. Instead of telling us, show it. I am sure others would like to see the raw data. Most do not know how to see the damage numbers like you do. Players can time encounters and see what they like best. That is all I am saying. No digging.

I say Build it and test it and come back here and tell us what you think.
 

Pawain

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@Khaelor

I do take my own experience and play style into my advice. Like a said a bunch of returners have invaded LS.

Here is the crap they are building. I specifically told these two guys to build their first pet AI/Chiv. But, they wanted to read about taming so they built these 2 Cus:

1580350035326.png

One wants to solo spawns all the time. So they talked me into going to Rikky.

I got there and they worked it to Dragons. We kept going, they died often, their pets died often.
Boss popped

1580350404452.png

I ran into the poison so I died. We all were dead at that point Rikky was barely scratched.
But we ressed and regrouped. We then were able stay on Rikki except for when they died a dozen more times.
I stayed alive and my pet stayed alive for the rest of the battle.
But we won!
1580350648421.png

I don't want LS to turn into Atlantic. I will tell players to build AI/Chiv pets.

They want to go again but someone talking them into sleeping dragon instead. I hope it works.

Serrado worked. I hope it is fixed.
 
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Khaelor

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I'm here to help the new and returners build some good pets so they can do content. Then they can specialize and do content with 3 slot Mongbats after they have good pets if they wish. Id like a PP Imp to play with.
We are here to help new and returning tamers also, in fact I think we built a whole website and have a chat channel for that purpose. Not everyone in this forum is a new or returning tamer, such as Southpaw (the original poster) and Turkish. You tend to talk down to the people who actually show a desire to have a deeper understanding of taming and often times not addressing their actual questions.

Also we don't use mongbats or anything of that nature. We are about efficiency. Not everyone plays all day or night or has the desire or ability to. The quicker things are killed the more things they can accomplish with their playtime or life.

I'm sure the poster was asking for a basic build and pet type that he could easily use in a group at Scalis.
Actually he was not inquiring about a basic build and pet type that could easily use in a group at Scalis. Let's re-read what he said:

People mention it is good for groups, so I'd be interested in creating a pet for that but I'm just not sure of the context.

We usually have large groups for Scalis? Would it be helpful for that?
Looks like he is asking if AP would be beneficial for Scalis. Not a basic pet build for it. I know Turkish and I know he is not an unskilled returning player. I've seen some of his pets and the ones I saw were well built. But you seem to think everyone who comes here to ask a question doesn't have a clue about training basics.

So to actually answer his question, we use AP pets for Scalis regularly. We find them very beneficial in most content we do, however, it's about how you use them, so I would have to know more about your group comp and your tamers spec. Its been a couple months since we've done an open call Scalis on Baja. I do have hundreds of nets there though, if people need them let me know. :p


As for @SouthPaw 's original question. We have not done AP on a Hiryu, but is this for an offensive tamer or will the pet be the main source of damage? Do you know what you want to kill with it? The thread I posted earlier, which was actually a thread you started, still has valuable information regarding AP.

You have methods to collect data, I know that. Instead of telling us, show it. I am sure others would like to see the raw data.
We've collected 1000s of logs the past two+ years. We presented data and information many times on stratics, our discord channel and on our website. We don't have time to publish, import and format or explain 1000s of logs For most people a raw data log does little to nothing.

Take for example here's a combat log from a tamer's pet at medusa tonight:

medusa1.PNG

From this log, can you tell what animal it is? Or at least narrow it down? It's spec? What is happening in each of those attacks? Why there are breaks in damage? Are they misses? Why the differences in all the hits?

We take the data we gather and interpret it, confirming any theory crafting is correct and things are working as intended and then try to explain the mechanics in a way that more people can understand and put it into practice in a way that benefits their playstyle.

@Khyro did a nice explanation of AP in the post I linked earlier, so I feel no need to retype the same information.
 

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Pawain

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From this log, can you tell what animal it is? Or at least narrow it down? It's spec? What is happening in each of those attacks? Why there are breaks in damage? Are they misses? Why the differences in all the hits?
Not where I can look up Medusa s resists. Looks like that damn WW you have. Turning on and off its chiv spells.
Or you chose something that has just one special and chiv that hits on her lowest resist since the hits are pretty consistent.
I can't see a pattern with the 4 low hits.

Or the pet could be an Energy Drake teamed with a bunch of beetles and some CB pets and the 100 to 200 numbers are normal attacks with RC on, the Higher damages are when CB and RC are on. :)

I timed my 2 Dogs on many things.
The Black one always killed faster.

If I would have done the test, I would have chosen a pet with nothing but AP and AI. Attacked something that caused little damage and has 70 or so resist in the pets damage type. Then put Chiv on the pet and ran the test a few more times.

I don't know how to make that damage vs time chart. I'm sure others would like to know how. Probably needs EC...
 
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Pawain

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For most people a raw data log does little to nothing.
Why would that be the case? Seeing what a pet really does can tell you things. For a Chiv pet: How long is EoO on, how often is EoO cast, how often is Consecrate used, How often does the pet do normal attacks how often does it do specials. How often do they use Conductive Blast or Rune Corruption, Does the pet do attacks that benefit from CB or RC during that 3 seconds.

Can that chart be modified to run across the bottom of the screen in real time. That would be awesome.

Not everyone in this forum is a new or returning tamer, such as Southpaw (the original poster) and Turkish.
Exactly. I live in a different UO world that you do. We do not kill Scalis in 2 minutes. When I read a question I also use experience from playing as an average UO Player doing that content.

Here is what happens at Scalis, to those other than your group. People bring mages, archers and tamers.
The tamers have whatever pet they want or they try to fit Scalis. (Nothing really fits because the lowest and highest can vary from one to another) Some bring Beetles for RC.
The main problem with a group at Scalis is, he hits pets hard. First to drop is that Beetle. Then if the next in lines owner is not busy healing himself or ran off the dock because of the eels, that pet drops fast. Next in line is a player with anything except a Triton that may or may not be running consume but now he is having to toss heals one after another which takes him completely out of the game to help in any other way.
So, the best help I can give to a Novice or Expert tamer is to Build a Triton that does decent damage. Eventually it will be the Tritons turn to be the target. The player tosses out a few heals or a GoR. A peace song would also work.
Now that Tamer is free to help with the healing of others, killing the eels with mass lightning spell, and chatting.
Soon, the others will notice, Damn he does not have to heal that Triton constantly, maybe I should bring one here.
Sorry I assume that part of having fun in UO is tossing heals and invis at other players and not just concentrating on all kill, heal the pet. Allen has 120 magery and eval. He tosses max heals and long lasting max Blesses.
Scalis is a lot more pleasant when pets stay alive.


And unless I have Southpaw confused with another poster, he kinda is a post pub.100 returner. Or maybe thats Whitesmith or something.
 

Pawain

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I do have hundreds of nets there though, if people need them let me know. :p
If that offer is for non Baja players, EQ will buy your nets. I am filled to the top with Scalis.
He would toss them every night if he had them. Gabby likes to toss them 5 at a time to outrage the others.
3 Scalis at once is interesting especially if one is somehow in the middle of the dock, another finds its way onto the grass, and one is roving between the two.
 
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