My thoughts on the new dragon,and the ability to tame them

[Hunters' Moon]

Being able to tame such a beefed up beast,even if it is 5 control slots,is a mistake. I see this little gift to the tamers as a bad move. Tamers can already wipe out a dungeon spawn point with a well trained Cu. Why would they need something thats better? It like killing an ant with a bazooka.

For those that have played when tamers had no slot limits can tell you how futile it was to try to get in hits on a spawn that a tamer,with 20-30 dragons in tow, was determined to take over.Will we start seeing things going back to this? I hope not! Please think long and hard Devs before you put this in a production shard!

 

[Guest]

Those days are not coming back from this dragon. People can chicken little over the dumbest things sometimes. Dragons are slow.

 

[AncientGeek]

What's unfortunate about this is that it's yet another combat buff that will have profound implications on both PvM and PvP, and it's going in with zero consideration for balance testing. Test center is to find bugs not to do balance testing and balancing rarely takes place before it goes live. You would think after all the troubles that have been caused by the total failure to do balance testing in the past before going live that they would be more careful-- necro fc, all ML weapons base damage (year+ and published to fix ornate axe alone), 100 pt+ WoD, fire and forget, and on and on....

These dragons may well prove to be a non-issue as far as being tamed and used in combat goes but the (lack of) process in getting them in game shows a break down of institutional memory that is far too common for comfort.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

<blockquote><hr>

Those days are not coming back from this dragon. People can chicken little over the dumbest things sometimes. Dragons are slow.

[/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be worried or being a "chicken little" as you say,if some of the "dumbest things" haven't been introduced in the game from time to time already.

 

[Guest]

There are like 4 or 5 threads about people crying about a dragon that isn't at tough as a balron. From pvper to weak pvmers and it's all just completely ridiculous. People have been crying that dragons were too weak for years and now they made a strong one pop up every once in a while.

I will agree that there isn't too much benefit in doing this and I'm sure the time spent doing so could have been better used for something more intersting or a bug fix but people are completely overreacting to a big dumb lizard being buffed. The AI isn't any smarter so unless people have become dumber(I wouldn't be surprised) it's my opinion that life will go on.

 

[Smokin]

I was just going to post to the devs to let us really test them first, its hard to test what they are like when we tame them with low skills. They need to make a way to get them to there max skills and stats in order to know if they are over powered or not.

So Devs is it possible to put up a training gate for them or just make it so it has the max stats and skills after you tame it for test shard.

 

[Larisa]

yeah that's a good idea..even if they DO pubish Origin first with it, and I for sure will attempt to tame one there..I would like to see what a nicely trained one would do.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

<blockquote><hr>

There are like 4 or 5 threads about people crying about a dragon that isn't at tough as a balron. From pvper to weak pvmers and it's all just completely ridiculous. People have been crying that dragons were too weak for years and now they made a strong one pop up every once in a while.

I will agree that there isn't too much benefit in doing this and I'm sure the time spent doing so could have been better used for something more intersting or a bug fix but people are completely overreacting to a big dumb lizard being buffed. The AI isn't any smarter so unless people have become dumber(I wouldn't be surprised) it's my opinion that life will go on.

[/ QUOTE ] I have absolutly no problem with the dragon getting a major buff. Truth be known,I would like to see the dragon so buffed that it takes at least 10 skilled players to kill one. My beef is that tamers can get them as pets. The new dragon should be too powerful and too smart(int) to be "charmed" into obeying a human or elf. Heck I think even legendary bards should have a hard time keeping that beast quiet for longer than a couple of seconds.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

<blockquote><hr>

yeah that's a good idea..even if they DO pubish Origin first with it, and I for sure will attempt to tame one there..I would like to see what a nicely trained one would do.

[/ QUOTE ] It will destroy a spawn faster than you can loot..oh wait...tamers already have that.

 

[Guest]

I think the tamers are going to be a non issue. No mounts are gonna be the breaking point. Few people are going to give up the safety of a mount to use these dragons for more than peerless. Hunting with them will be rare because of the added dangers.

As for bards...well, a disco provo bard will eat them for breakfast all day long as it does nearly all monsters in the game.

When the pvpers find out this thing is too slow to use in combat it will be the end of the crying and hysteria and life will go back to normal. You will see as many people with these as you do reptalons.

 

[Silly Seadog]

<blockquote><hr>

The new dragon should be too powerful and too smart(int) to be "charmed" into obeying a human or elf. Heck I think even legendary bards should have a hard time keeping that beast quiet for longer than a couple of seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]Arrrrr, mayhaps there be some o' these hidin' out there, too!

 

[Silly Seadog]

<blockquote><hr>

it will be the end of the crying and hysteria and life will go back to normal.

[/ QUOTE ]Arrrrrr, ne'er! This be UHall!!

 

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

I was just going to post to the devs to let us really test them first, its hard to test what they are like when we tame them with low skills. They need to make a way to get them to there max skills and stats in order to know if they are over powered or not.

So Devs is it possible to put up a training gate for them or just make it so it has the max stats and skills after you tame it for test shard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Testing and training have already been done.

Uber Dragons on Test
Training was so kindly done by LadyNico, and even after a jaunt at Yew Gate with a lucky 900 hp bugger, I'd probably still stick to Beetle/Mare combo for anything open field.

They -are- the single most dangerous pet, but they are just that, the -single- pet you'll have to face from any individual tamer. I'd rather deal with one of these than a beetle/mare combo. (Heck, they're simple enough to lead tame)

 

[Smokin]

Well it should be tested fully, or could cause PVP and PVM problems.

 

[Lord_Asterix]

<blockquote><hr>

Well it should be tested fully, or could cause PVP and PVM problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must remind yourself EA develops this game.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

I have 3 dexers and a mage that can EASILY outdamage that dragon.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

Yeah... people are still panicing because they haven't run the numbers yet.

The first thing I did when I found out about these dragons the first go round was to run the numbers and see how this dragon stacks up against other 5 slot combos...

the dragon holds a niche, but it's FAR from being the top damage output pet.

 

[Al Thorin]

Yah, it's like alot of other pets, it's got a place, but its far from being -the- pet.
Might be good for a wither wall breaker

Though I can't recall their cold resist.

 

[Smokin]

So you are telling me alot of people have tested a FULLY trained one of these new dragons. I am not worried about the stats they have when untamed and what not I am talking about a fully maxed out tamed one to test with. Its a huge difference.

 

[Silly Seadog]

Arrr, Nico done offered t' let anyone try out hers on Test - mayhaps ye should take her up on that!

 

[Hunters' Moon]

<blockquote><hr>

I have 3 dexers and a mage that can EASILY outdamage that dragon.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah but you are your own meat shield with your dexxers and mage. You die and you lose insurance gold and possibly get looted if you run out of gold. The tamer...well the tamers pet can die and lose stats and skill... but nothing that some "cross training" can't fix at a local stable.

 

[Al Thorin]

Bonded and Trained. Yes.
Maxed dex, and GM or better in skills trained.

LadyNico spent, I would assume, a fair bit of time running a couple through the wringer.

While I've never seen so many players throw THEMSELVES at a pet (and die), I've seem much more effective pet combos for speed kills.

The buggers a tank, and can do damage, but it's burst damage is much lower seeing as it's only -1- pet.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Arrr, Nico done offered t' let anyone try out hers on Test - mayhaps ye should take her up on that!

[/ QUOTE ]Arr! That I did and not so much as a single taker!

*You see: Nico's Super Dragon roaring: "Bring it on!"*

 

[Smokin]

Me fighting it is not the kind of testing I am talking about, and one persons view is not a very good test of a major game change. This should be tested longer before it hits production shards.

Ah well they can always change it later, like a year or so down the road. I don't know why I try bringing logic to these boards sometimes.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I have 3 dexers and a mage that can EASILY outdamage that dragon.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah but you are your own meat shield with your dexxers and mage. You die and you lose insurance gold and possibly get looted if you run out of gold. The tamer...well the tamers pet can die and lose stats and skill... but nothing that some "cross training" can't fix at a local stable.

[/ QUOTE ]

What takes more time? training back magery on a pet or making 10k gold?

I don't know about you, but I can make 10k gold in a couple minutes lol

it takes much longer to retrain a pet.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

<blockquote><hr>

So you are telling me alot of people have tested a FULLY trained one of these new dragons. I am not worried about the stats they have when untamed and what not I am talking about a fully maxed out tamed one to test with. Its a huge difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like stealth tamers are going to have to get to work trying to tame one. They need to quit buffing the beasts and tame the players.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Me fighting it is not the kind of testing I am talking about, and one persons view is not a very good test of a major game change. This should be tested longer before it hits production shards.

Ah well they can always change it later, like a year or so down the road. I don't know why I try bringing logic to these boards sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]The super dragons are on TC1 again right now.

I don't have any misguided need for anyone to believe the results of my testing.

Instead, I'd simply ask: What's preventing you from doing your own super dragon testing?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So you are telling me alot of people have tested a FULLY trained one of these new dragons. I am not worried about the stats they have when untamed and what not I am talking about a fully maxed out tamed one to test with. Its a huge difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like stealth tamers are going to have to get to work trying to tame one. They need to quit buffing the beasts and tame the players.

[/ QUOTE ]As much as I happen to loathe the gimplate, for you, I will change my usual tamer/mage (yes, my Siege tamer is tamer/mage, too) to a ninja/tamer on TC1.

A better test would probably be for you to take on Al Thorin &amp; one of his super dragons since he is by far a more experienced pvp tamer than me, though I can't offer out anyone elses' services but my own.

To be perfectly honest with you, I can see using the super dragon in wither-fests and choke point fights where it will serve well as a tank with some nice steady damage output. For burst damage, however, rune beetle/bake kit or mare combo still wins by a huge margin.

It'd be nice to put your mind at rest. My offer stands, PM me if you're up for it.

 

[imported_Black_Magick]

<blockquote><hr>

No mounts are gonna be the breaking point.

[/ QUOTE ] horray for ninja form?

 

[Smokin]

Whats preventing me from testing their FULL abilities is, time. I don't have the time to train one up to test it, taming one is easy. Thats all I am asking for is to have a way to get them up to full skill/stats fast. Is that such a bad thing. I mean if it goes on the production shards in a few days, then for sure it will not be tested enough.

 

[imported_Cysphruo]

ive played a tamer since day one, you people are acting like its the end of the world, its nothing more then a new pet for tamers... put the facts together... it takes five slots and doesnt have healing or poisoning. today most people pvp/pvm with either a rune beetle or cu sidhe, if you see someone with a dragon or white wyrm its because they just love em or are being old school. all theyre doing here is bringing back a reason to have a dragon, simple as that, dragons are extremly underpowered and people have been saying that for years.

 

[Smokin]

Well these ones just got a boost cause now they have bleed attack.

 

[imported_Lord Kynd]

<blockquote><hr>

Being able to tame such a beefed up beast,even if it is 5 control slots,is a mistake. I see this little gift to the tamers as a bad move. Tamers can already wipe out a dungeon spawn point with a well trained Cu. Why would they need something thats better? It like killing an ant with a bazooka.

For those that have played when tamers had no slot limits can tell you how futile it was to try to get in hits on a spawn that a tamer,with 20-30 dragons in tow, was determined to take over.Will we start seeing things going back to this? I hope not! Please think long and hard Devs before you put this in a production shard!

[/ QUOTE ]

hunter,
maybe the dragons will not be the only things getting 'beefed up' .
they might just be a 'testing' creature.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Whats preventing me from testing their FULL abilities is, time. I don't have the time to train one up to test it, taming one is easy. Thats all I am asking for is to have a way to get them up to full skill/stats fast. Is that such a bad thing. I mean if it goes on the production shards in a few days, then for sure it will not be tested enough.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm short on time, too, Smokin. I trained one super dragon up anyway simply by using the time I would have spent on a prodo shard on TC1 instead. I did it because I was curious and because I knew darn well there'd be seven shades of squalling at the very prospect of a stronger dragon.

Actually, if anything it's FASTER for me to train pets up on TC1 because there I can instantly add 120 Discord/Music to my tamer template and have it gnaw on a shadow ellie in Yamotsu Mines. I just don't tend to take those kinds of short cuts since training pets is essentially *all* the hunting I do on any of my tamers.

Untrained Super Dragon sees Swoop kicking its scaly rump. Untrained Super Dragon requires vet and mage heals to nearly, almost, just about survive a mid-range wild cu sidhe. Untrained Super Dragon is slow enough &amp; whiffs so much that any pvper who dies to it must have lost connection.

Trained Super Dragon does fairly well against Swoop. Trained Super Dragon still struggles with a mid-range (non-uber) wild cu sidhe. Trained Super Dragon remains slow enough and is such a whopping great, lumbering, unmissable target that any pvper who dies to it must have been on foot, low on health through prior injury or lost connection.

I gave my observations. I agreed with the few pvpers I tested it on that the firebreath might be toned down a touch. Otherwise, I think it's an exceptionally beautiful and balanced addition to the tamer arsenal. (Kindly note the word "addition" rather than "replacement" as it was carefully chosen with Lord Chaos very much in mind.

Since no one is willing to come play with me, I don't know whether Super Dragon's firebreath has been tweaked. From what I've been able to determine, the sheer range of stats/skills/resists means an uber one is going to be a real pain to find. None will be unkillable and unless, perhaps, one is on dialup, outrunning it just isn't going to be a problem.

Frankly, as far as any worries about ninja forms, this would be down to balancing Ninjitsu as a skill rather than the beefed-up dragons.

 

[Tark_Smash]

They are going to be terrible on siege, most pvpers are using dragons now because they have more HP than beetles and do about the same damage. Also most pvp tamers are stealthers and run in ninja animal form, so this new buffed up dragon will give them much more fire power with no disadvantage whatsoever.

 

[Larisa]

Look at this:

Dragon

Description:
Dragons are a wise and ancient race. They are terrible indeed in their anger, but they are neither cruel nor rapacious in their own nature. Any who says otherwise speaks not the truth. It is true that dragons, like all other sapient peoples, have the power to choose, and that some, succumbing to malice or madness, have descended in wrath on helpless humans, and been put down in consequence. When a man dies beneath a dragon's claws, however, it is far more often the case that he has succumbed to his own greed, and gone foolishly seeking to rob the dragon of his fabled hoard.

The blood of dragons is also coveted, for it is potent in the creation of magical spells.

The potent magicks intrinsic to the draconian nature are amply shown in their ability to fly adroitly, although their weight is many hundred stone, and in their ability to belch forth mighty streams of consuming flame. No other creature is as terrible in war as the dragon.

Dragons dwell in caves and in dungeons (untroubled in their might by the evil creatures who may dwell therein also), and they guard their hoards and their eggs with all ferocity. Their natural lifespans are measured in millennia, and they never stop growing, so that the wisest and most ancient of dragons are also behemoths of vastness unequaled.

From THAT description...I picture a mighty beast who all would run in terror from, or at least take great caution in dealing with them.

It's about time the dragons became what they are SUPPOSED to be...imo.

 

[Larisa]

HA that would be amusing.

Dragons, as all Draconian beings, are very intelligent and should have the power to do just that...how dare they say a mere human or elf can TAME one of these great beasts! Only if THEY so chose it's master, not the other way around.

 

[Cogniac]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

No mounts are gonna be the breaking point.

[/ QUOTE ] horray for ninja form?

[/ QUOTE ]This.

(Note: This is a complaint against Ninjitsu, not against Super Dragons. Ninjitsu animal form is imbalancing in many situations, Super Dragon or not.)

 

[Frarc]

No matter how mighty something is , human nature is to either control it or destroy it.Things we don't understand we fear.Greed can overcome fear. And with all that Dragons and Humans can not be friends.

The wealth they guard are good enough to let us overcome our fear of the mighty beast. There power and Wisdom is a treat to us. So Slaying or controling them gives us a feeling of great power!.


For me a dragon should look at a human , chew at him, swallow him and then spit its bones out for the bad taste of there greedy bones!

 

[imported_Sarphus]

Funny you should say that...

My wife and I were just listening to Ceasar Milan's book (on mp3) on our way to my folks house today. Caesar Milan is known as the dog wisper. He's a specialist in rehabilitating "red zone" dogs. Well anyway... one of the things he said in his book is that animals don't realize that they're stronger and faster than us. When animals first come in contact with humans, they are afraid of humans.

It's an interesting point and I think it's true. There's no reason that people should be able to tame any large predatory animal, but some people have. Well... I guess they keep it tame some of the time lol

I don't think taming a lion IRL is any different than taming a hell cat in UO except that in UO you add the fantasy aspect to the equation. I'm a legendary tamer... I have a superhuman understanding of mythical creatures. I'm like Hagrid in harry potter... but smaller and better with animals.

I don't have ANY issue with the consept of a tamer being able to tame a mighty and intelligent beast. We tame dolfins and chimps...

 

[Anonomo]

<blockquote><hr>

Being able to tame such a beefed up beast,even if it is 5 control slots,is a mistake. I see this little gift to the tamers as a bad move. Tamers can already wipe out a dungeon spawn point with a well trained Cu. Why would they need something thats better? It like killing an ant with a bazooka.

For those that have played when tamers had no slot limits can tell you how futile it was to try to get in hits on a spawn that a tamer,with 20-30 dragons in tow, was determined to take over.Will we start seeing things going back to this? I hope not! Please think long and hard Devs before you put this in a production shard!

[/ QUOTE ]

20-30 dragons in tow? lol, dont we have things just slightly twisted out of proportion..... lemme guess... your just one of them "i hate tamers" kind of warriors?

 

[Hunters' Moon]

<blockquote><hr>

20-30 dragons in tow? lol, dont we have things just slightly twisted out of proportion..... lemme guess... your just one of them "i hate tamers" kind of warriors?

[/ QUOTE ] You think I am making this up? Ask someone that played UO at that time and they will tell you. You could be hunting in Wind farming liches and in comes a tamer with 15 dragons...ok game over...might as well recall out because you'll never get loot rights now because of the "all kill" gank fest that would happen. So yeah...I do hate the tamer template.

 

[Guest]

Just for laughs me and a bunch of friends would tame just about every Polar Bear on Ice Isle and release all of them in the Deciet Lich Room, lol. Was funny watching tons of Polar Bears gank Liches. We also did it to the Brit Bank a few times. I rarely used more than 2 high end pets at a time back then, and i did PvP on my Tamer/Mage.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

Heh sometimes I do miss the old UO,where if you had a newly made character,it could actually die from a fight against something that doesn't actually agro to you unless you attack first. Heh my first death I'll never forget...an eagle killed my axer warrior...too funny.

 

[Frarc]

Where did the time go we could tame a Ancient Wyrm.

I died on a boar on the first day out in the wild!

 

[Guest]

My bro's first death was to a Llama on his Swordsman, can't remember mine, was too long ago. I think it was either to another player, or to a Mountain Goat.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

<blockquote><hr>

I died on a boar on the first day out in the wild!

[/ QUOTE ] Haha I died in the town. I targeted the eagle so I couldn't run to town and call guards. Could you imagine if non-aggresives were tough to beat again with a new character? That would be awsome. Now-a-days non-agressives,such as eagles,boars,and bears,are an after-thought to players that make new characters. They can go straight to ettins.Man ettins used to be something you worked up to,not something you could fight the same day you made a character. ahh well...those were the days

 

[Frarc]

<blockquote><hr>

My bro's first death was to a Llama on his Swordsman, can't remember mine, was too long ago. I think it was either to another player, or to a Mountain Goat.

[/ QUOTE ]


A good old llama's, tossed so many furs of them away! Look at how rare they became now!

 

[Kas Althume]

<blockquote><hr>

...I can't offer out anyone elses' services but my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll need your help on Siege soon. I need the dragon to gnaw on something while i tame it.

 

[Guest]

Just say the word! And you, Mr Maro, know where I am and how to get ahold of me.