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My dear Amercian friends...

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Eärendil

Legendary Mall Santa
Supporter
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...the world needs you. We are living in a chaotic world, more chaotic than I ever experienced in the last 40 years. I dont want to comment your elections. I just want to post a message to you all: I am a trans-atlantic, pro-american European. No matter what you think of the EU or foreign affairs: Since the end of WWII and the cold war, the world has never needed you more than now - we need the American creativity and pragmatism, we need your spirit and your power, we need your belief in the good things and the pursuit for happiness. We need the America of Abe Lincoln and Franlyn D. Roosevelt. We need more democracy, not less. We need more unity not less, we need more trans-atlantic agreement and cooperation of all democrats - not less.

Right in this very moment, authoritarianism is spreading everywhere. Babies are dying in the ruins of Aleppo, cynical, anti-human people are dictating the way history should walk. I dont want to mention certain countries or leaders - we all know them. We need more humanism and peace, not less!

70 years ago, German troops killed more than 30.000 jews within 2 days in the Ukraine. Mothers, babies, whole families. The shooting lasted hours. We have learned that there has to be a "never again!" when it comes to anti-human politics.

Whereever you stand, dont let your heart be darkened by selfish motives, autoritarian feelings, hate. It was the US, Great Britain, France, that saved European civilization and culture. You shed your blood so that we, the European countries can live in peace and prosperity now. For 70 years democracy was on the winning track: US culture and democratic ideals have spread in the whole world. In the late 18th century there were 2 democracies in the world, now we are around 100. I know, many mistakes have been made in the past. But fighting for a better world is never a mistake - for a world with liberty, peace, equal rights, emancipation, education. We Germans had to learn that democracy is the best way for a human living. We learned over piles of millions of deads. Other countries are still learning. We all need to help them.

So, my dear American friends, there is nobody else on this planet who stands for these ideals as much as you do. We all need you. Turning your back on the world is no choice, dont let the cynics win. Stay with us.

Please!
 

cazador

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Come November 8th the terror cells will be watching abroad and know, the free world won't be ran like a piggy bank any longer for the elite, the freedoms of "all" specifically in America won't be jeopardized for the benefit of the few, and the world won't be forced to follow suit by the chaotic radical groups claiming they seek to remove a pseudo oppression. The world will become stronger because America will become stronger virtually overnight, the metaphorical thin red line will be enforced again by actions, and not by false promises and failed leadership. The globalist agenda is losing and they know it! #Brexit was just the beginning! Holding hands, and rubbing shoulders is for the weak. The world can not afford to be weak any longer! The mainstream media in America and across the world can no longer lie and hide the realities of the world. While politicians and journalist elites force feed us the nothing to see here agenda people are dying daily! It's time they learned a lesson in togetherness of the nations or by artillery, whichever they decide..#MAGA


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old gypsy

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I love what my country was originally intended to be: a Democratic Republic designed by founders who recognized the need to establish and preserve national sovereignty, and who believed in the concept of Liberty (not the same thing as License).

What I can't love is a simplistic Democracy which has been accurately described as "Two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner." And that is exactly the sort of Democracy that seems to be taking root in various countries today.

That said, I'll offer this: I was raised by parents who were both patriotic and Christian, who loved this country but also respected the cultures of other countries. My father was a world traveler in his day. He made it a point to learn as much as he could about the culture and language of each country he visited. As a result, he made friends in many places, and he and my mother entertained friends from many countries in our home during my teenage years. If my father was alive today, he would be horrified to see what is happening in the world, and how many historical cultures are being torn apart (transformed?) by misguided attempts to "bring the world together" into some utopian vision of "global unity" that would, in fact, be a "global tyranny".

Regarding the upcoming election, I will never vote for a Globalist.

Trump-Pence 2016!
 

Captn Norrington

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It's clear that you truly believe in what you wrote, and I respect that. However....

There is one very large thing that most Europeans don't quite understand about America, through no fault of their own. In Europe, each country is able to interact freely with the countries around them so well mainly because most European countries are very similar in terms of culture and lifestyle. It's easy to live in harmony with people whose culture is nearly identical to your own. How many differences are there really between someone from Finland and someone from Sweden for example? Not many, so of course the countries get along well.

America is the complete opposite. We have quite literally every culture in existence living in the same cities in some places (like New York City). When you take people from 100+ different cultures, who all believe in entirely different things, then force them to live right next to each other for years upon years.... it does not promote global unity. It does the opposite and creates hatred, jealousy, cultural clashes, gang wars, etc.

People simply can only take so much of being forced to live with and accept other cultures who have completely opposite lifestyles before they snap. It becomes even worse when the countries leaders attempt to force everyone to "just get along" and absolutely destroy anyone who dares to think for themselves instead of just accepting whatever the leaders want them to accept.

Genuine American culture has been damaged so badly by forced changes, and being forced to treat certain cultures like they can do no wrong. Europeans don't understand that in America if a non-Middle Eastern person accuses a Middle Easterner of doing anything wrong, immediately they become a target and are barraged from all sides with accusations of things like racism, xenophobia, hatred, prejudice etc. What are people supposed to do? Only say good things about the person who just robbed your store and shot your brother because they happen to be Middle Eastern? Apparently that's what some of the politicians want.

Even the laws of the country themselves have been changed to give certain cultures preference over other all other cultures, for absolutely no reason other than that a politician felt like making it that way. The affirmative action law is a perfect example of this. Let's say there are two people applying for a job as manager of a restaurant. One is a white man with a bachelors degree in business management. The other is a black man who has a highschool diploma but no college degree. Both people are exactly the same in every way other than education. The affirmative action law says that BY LAW the restaurant is forced to hire the black man simply because he is black, even though the white man was a more ideal candidate for the position due to the college degree. Tell me, how is that fair in any way? Just because someone happens to be a minority they somehow deserve the job more than someone who is better suited for it? Things like that have been going in on America for the last couple of decades. People of Middle Eastern, Latino, and African descent have gotten extreme preferential treatment from the government and whenever anyone protests against such clearly unfair laws and regulations they are accused of being a racist, prejudiced, white supremacist Nazi. The media demonizes anyone who doesn't want to comply with their "white people should feel guilty for being white" philosophy. The politicians pass increasingly unfair laws that give certain minority cultures massive advantages over all other cultures for no reason at all.

They have even gone as far as allowing teachers to press their political beliefs on little kids that are like 8 years old, to brainwash them to follow a certain political philosophy by the time they are of voting age. I am a teacher, I have seen this first hand many times. If a child mentions ANYTHING that supports the Republican party during a class discussion about politics or whatever else, many teachers will shut the kid down instantly and tell them that what they said is wrong, racist, and has no place in school even though what the student said was not racist in any way, and was a fair discussion topic. I have seen teenagers literally suspended from school by their teacher for daring to bring up an alternative viewpoint during a classroom discussion, in a respectful way. In one particular case that happened recently the student was suspended for saying that they do not think women should be allowed to have direct combat military jobs because it could endanger the lives of male soldiers with the same job if the female soldier wasn't physically able to do their job during a fight due to the genetic differences in strength between the genders. That sounds like a completely fair point that could have created a good class discussion right? Apparently not, the student was suspended for "sexism" and then later expelled entirely after he and the parents fought back against the school for doing it.

When our own politicians who are elected to serve the country, absolutely refuse to follow the basic laws of the country, like deporting illegal immigrants, it causes normal Americans who believe that people should follow the law to become very unhappy and resentful of their government. This is one thing that I can't wrap my head around at all, in every single country in the entire world, it is against the law to break into the country without going through the proper procedures and having the proper documentation. The people who do it anyway are even literally called "illegal" immigrants. Yet the leaders of this country adamantly refuse to remove the people who broke into the country illegally, and in a lot of cases refuse to even call them illegal immigrants because apparently doing that is "racist". They call them "undocumented" immigrants instead. Breaking into a country is illegal. Doing something illegal makes the person doing it a criminal. Therefore all illegal immigrants who broke the law to get in are criminals by default. Yet whenever anyone publicly calls an illegal immigrant a criminal, they are accused of being a racist. It makes no sense to me.

The religious differences cause problems as well. I am an Atheist so don't believe in any religions at all, however I completely understand why so many Christians are angry that their religion is being stomped on by the government in favor of Middle Eastern religions. Your original post was about global unity and everyone being friends. How can an American Christian be friends with their Muslim immigrant neighbor, when their neighbor believes all non-Muslims should be executed because it says so in the Quran? I'm not saying all Muslims believe that of course, because that isn't true, but the most dedicated followers of Islam actually do believe that. How can you possibly trust and be friends with someone who chooses to follow a religious philosophy that tells them their purpose in life is to execute people like you? If a radical Islamist runs through the street screaming "Death to America!" it's completely ok, and they will not be punished for it at all. If a Christian or Jewish person runs through the street screaming "Death to Islam!" they will be arrested by the police and thrown in jail for hate speech. How is that fair? It's a double standard created by the politicians in this country to further their political agenda.

As I said at the beginning of this post, Europeans cannot truly understand what it's like to live with these things every day because Europe is so different from America culturally. Since Europeans don't deal with things like this on a daily basis it's very easy for a European to say that global unity and multiculturalism would be a great idea when they have never actually experienced it like Americans have. For the first time ever certain parts of Europe like Britain have begun to experience the problems that I mentioned in this post due to things like the Syrian refugee issue, and as we all saw Britain fought back against it in the form of the Brexit vote. They realize that British culture is slowly being destroyed just like American culture was destroyed, and they are trying to fix it before it's too late.

Things like what I mentioned in this post are why a candidate like Donald Trump is so popular, and why people are tired of the government telling them what to think, what to say, and how to say it.

I am an independent and don't belong to a political party. I don't particularly like Donald Trump, however after seeing the current politicians do their best to destroy what's left of American culture I will probably end up voting for him.

In your original post you mentioned that America is great because of it's spirit, and things like America's involvement in World War II. I agree with you, but the World War II American culture doesn't exist anymore. That was genuine American culture, and it has been ripped to shreds by our current politicians. I just hope it isn't too late to bring it back.
 

cazador

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
It's clear that you truly believe in what you wrote, and I respect that. However....

There is one very large thing that most Europeans don't quite understand about America, through no fault of their own. In Europe, each country is able to interact freely with the countries around them so well mainly because most European countries are very similar in terms of culture and lifestyle. It's easy to live in harmony with people whose culture is nearly identical to your own. How many differences are there really between someone from Finland and someone from Sweden for example? Not many, so of course the countries get along well.

America is the complete opposite. We have quite literally every culture in existence living in the same cities in some places (like New York City). When you take people from 100+ different cultures, who all believe in entirely different things, then force them to live right next to each other for years upon years.... it does not promote global unity. It does the opposite and creates hatred, jealousy, cultural clashes, gang wars, etc.

People simply can only take so much of being forced to live with and accept other cultures who have completely opposite lifestyles before they snap. It becomes even worse when the countries leaders attempt to force everyone to "just get along" and absolutely destroy anyone who dares to think for themselves instead of just accepting whatever the leaders want them to accept.

Genuine American culture has been damaged so badly by forced changes, and being forced to treat certain cultures like they can do no wrong. Europeans don't understand that in America if a non-Middle Eastern person accuses a Middle Easterner of doing anything wrong, immediately they become a target and are barraged from all sides with accusations of things like racism, xenophobia, hatred, prejudice etc. What are people supposed to do? Only say good things about the person who just robbed your store and shot your brother because they happen to be Middle Eastern? Apparently that's what some of the politicians want.

Even the laws of the country themselves have been changed to give certain cultures preference over other all other cultures, for absolutely no reason other than that a politician felt like making it that way. The affirmative action law is a perfect example of this. Let's say there are two people applying for a job as manager of a restaurant. One is a white man with a bachelors degree in business management. The other is a black man who has a highschool diploma but no college degree. Both people are exactly the same in every way other than education. The affirmative action law says that BY LAW the restaurant is forced to hire the black man simply because he is black, even though the white man was a more ideal candidate for the position due to the college degree. Tell me, how is that fair in any way? Just because someone happens to be a minority they somehow deserve the job more than someone who is better suited for it? Things like that have been going in on America for the last couple of decades. People of Middle Eastern, Latino, and African descent have gotten extreme preferential treatment from the government and whenever anyone protests against such clearly unfair laws and regulations they are accused of being a racist, prejudiced, white supremacist Nazi. The media demonizes anyone who doesn't want to comply with their "white people should feel guilty for being white" philosophy. The politicians pass increasingly unfair laws that give certain minority cultures massive advantages over all other cultures for no reason at all.

They have even gone as far as allowing teachers to press their political beliefs on little kids that are like 8 years old, to brainwash them to follow a certain political philosophy by the time they are of voting age. I am a teacher, I have seen this first hand many times. If a child mentions ANYTHING that supports the Republican party during a class discussion about politics or whatever else, many teachers will shut the kid down instantly and tell them that what they said is wrong, racist, and has no place in school even though what the student said was not racist in any way, and was a fair discussion topic. I have seen teenagers literally suspended from school by their teacher for daring to bring up an alternative viewpoint during a classroom discussion, in a respectful way. In one particular case that happened recently the student was suspended for saying that they do not think women should be allowed to have direct combat military jobs because it could endanger the lives of male soldiers with the same job if the female soldier wasn't physically able to do their job during a fight due to the genetic differences in strength between the genders. That sounds like a completely fair point that could have created a good class discussion right? Apparently not, the student was suspended for "sexism" and then later expelled entirely after he and the parents fought back against the school for doing it.

When our own politicians who are elected to serve the country, absolutely refuse to follow the basic laws of the country, like deporting illegal immigrants, it causes normal Americans who believe that people should follow the law to become very unhappy and resentful of their government. This is one thing that I can't wrap my head around at all, in every single country in the entire world, it is against the law to break into the country without going through the proper procedures and having the proper documentation. The people who do it anyway are even literally called "illegal" immigrants. Yet the leaders of this country adamantly refuse to remove the people who broke into the country illegally, and in a lot of cases refuse to even call them illegal immigrants because apparently doing that is "racist". They call them "undocumented" immigrants instead. Breaking into a country is illegal. Doing something illegal makes the person doing it a criminal. Therefore all illegal immigrants who broke the law to get in are criminals by default. Yet whenever anyone publicly calls an illegal immigrant a criminal, they are accused of being a racist. It makes no sense to me.

The religious differences cause problems as well. I am an Atheist so don't believe in any religions at all, however I completely understand why so many Christians are angry that their religion is being stomped on by the government in favor of Middle Eastern religions. Your original post was about global unity and everyone being friends. How can an American Christian be friends with their Muslim immigrant neighbor, when their neighbor believes all non-Muslims should be executed because it says so in the Quran? I'm not saying all Muslims believe that of course, because that isn't true, but the most dedicated followers of Islam actually do believe that. How can you possibly trust and be friends with someone who chooses to follow a religious philosophy that tells them their purpose in life is to execute people like you? If a radical Islamist runs through the street screaming "Death to America!" it's completely ok, and they will not be punished for it at all. If a Christian or Jewish person runs through the street screaming "Death to Islam!" they will be arrested by the police and thrown in jail for hate speech. How is that fair? It's a double standard created by the politicians in this country to further their political agenda.

As I said at the beginning of this post, Europeans cannot truly understand what it's like to live with these things every day because Europe is so different from America culturally. Since Europeans don't deal with things like this on a daily basis it's very easy for a European to say that global unity and multiculturalism would be a great idea when they have never actually experienced it like Americans have. For the first time ever certain parts of Europe like Britain have begun to experience the problems that I mentioned in this post due to things like the Syrian refugee issue, and as we all saw Britain fought back against it in the form of the Brexit vote. They realize that British culture is slowly being destroyed just like American culture was destroyed, and they are trying to fix it before it's too late.

Things like what I mentioned in this post are why a candidate like Donald Trump is so popular, and why people are tired of the government telling them what to think, what to say, and how to say it.

I am an independent and don't belong to a political party. I don't particularly like Donald Trump, however after seeing the current politicians do their best to destroy what's left of American culture I will probably end up voting for him.

In your original post you mentioned that America is great because of it's spirit, and things like America's involvement in World War II. I agree with you, but the World War II American culture doesn't exist anymore. That was genuine American culture, and it has been ripped to shreds by our current politicians. I just hope it isn't too late to bring it back.
Literally there is exactly zero way to say this any better...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Taylor

Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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Alumni
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...the world needs you. We are living in a chaotic world, more chaotic than I ever experienced in the last 40 years. I dont want to comment your elections. I just want to post a message to you all: I am a trans-atlantic, pro-american European. No matter what you think of the EU or foreign affairs: Since the end of WWII and the cold war, the world has never needed you more than now - we need the American creativity and pragmatism, we need your spirit and your power, we need your belief in the good things and the pursuit for happiness. We need the America of Abe Lincoln and Franlyn D. Roosevelt. We need more democracy, not less. We need more unity not less, we need more trans-atlantic agreement and cooperation of all democrats - not less.

Right in this very moment, authoritarianism is spreading everywhere. Babies are dying in the ruins of Aleppo, cynical, anti-human people are dictating the way history should walk. I dont want to mention certain countries or leaders - we all know them. We need more humanism and peace, not less!

70 years ago, German troops killed more than 30.000 jews within 2 days in the Ukraine. Mothers, babies, whole families. The shooting lasted hours. We have learned that there has to be a "never again!" when it comes to anti-human politics.

Whereever you stand, dont let your heart be darkened by selfish motives, autoritarian feelings, hate. It was the US, Great Britain, France, that saved European civilization and culture. You shed your blood so that we, the European countries can live in peace and prosperity now. For 70 years democracy was on the winning track: US culture and democratic ideals have spread in the whole world. In the late 18th century there were 2 democracies in the world, now we are around 100. I know, many mistakes have been made in the past. But fighting for a better world is never a mistake - for a world with liberty, peace, equal rights, emancipation, education. We Germans had to learn that democracy is the best way for a human living. We learned over piles of millions of deads. Other countries are still learning. We all need to help them.

So, my dear American friends, there is nobody else on this planet who stands for these ideals as much as you do. We all need you. Turning your back on the world is no choice, dont let the cynics win. Stay with us.

Please!
Speaking as a person in the Washington, DC, beltway, I think a lot of folks here would find this really meaningful. Thank you. Fingers crossed for whatever the future holds.

American president are center stage in US foreign policy for sure, but there are a whole lot of balancing influences built in. I think the world's gonna be okay for our lifetimes, despite immeasurable challenges and regardless of what the next eight years look like. Humans are adaptive, as UO JoaT taught us. We are survivors. We'll muddle through it.
 

Garen

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Can anyone define "Genuine American culture" for me? I can't help but see Norrington's response as a good summary of the the misguided belief held by many Americans; that our issues are unique, and that our culture is under attack, which is what leads so many people to hold irrational political views.
 

Eärendil

Legendary Mall Santa
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I think some took me wrong. I was talking about bringing the Western democracies together. I dont think that the Brexit is the beginning of something. The UK was always different and that's okay. And I understand what Norry means, but we have such laws too. Not exactly what I meant.

In a nutshell, I am horrified of a world led by Putin or similar cynics. The free world must not allow them to dictate the way history will walk. And I think European counties have to spend more money and efforts for self-defense and for strengthening the NATO, but nevertheless everything is lost without the US. See, the last 70years were one large story of success compared to the centuries before. You have to think long-term. The transatlantic agreement is vital. Without it, Putin and the anti-human tendencies will win.

And yes, I think there is a large share of common values between the US and Sweden or Finland or Germany or France or the UK. We are much closer in cultural terms than - lets say - China. That's no question of ethnicity but a question of commonly shared political values such as freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I know you are struggling in these points, all our societies do at the moment. We are experiencing an intellectual crisis of the West.

But history teaches us that we must stick together. People who adore Putin are frightening me.
 

Lady Michelle

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UNLEASHED
hears a laugh for you all to lighen the mood
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump go into a bakery.
As soon as they enter the bakery, Hillary steals three pastries and puts them in her pocket.
She says to Donald, "See how clever I am? The owner didn't see anything and I don't even need to lie.” I will definitely win the election.
The Donald says to Hillary, "That's the typical dishonesty you have displayed throughout your entire life, trickery and deceit. I am going to show you an honest way to get the same result."
Donald goes to the owner of the bakery and says, "Give me a pastry and I will show you a magic trick." Intrigued, the owner accepts and gives him a pastry. Trump swallows it and asks for another one. The owner gives him another one. Then Donald asks for a third pastry and eats that, too.
The owner is starting to wonder where the magic trick is and asks, "What did you do with the pastries?" Trump replies, "Look in Hillary's pocket"
 

Eärendil

Legendary Mall Santa
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Great! I like you all. Try that joke in Russia and you will end up in a jail. Or in Turkey or in China or in Syriah...

Michelle helped me to make my point. You now understand? It's not about Trump or Clinton, my point was about defending the value to make jokes about our leaders. And all the related aspects of freedom!

And to old gypsy I wanted to say: I am not talking about interventionalism and overthrowing cultures /countries, regime change and so on. My point was just to say: Stick with us, dont turn your back on the world and let Putin or others decide. To most people on this planet, your country is still a shining example. Believe it or not. And the world needs a strong, intelligent and constructive US. No matter who is president. I know your country has serious internal problems, but they are nothing compared to the chaos on other parts of the planet.
 
Last edited:

Captn Norrington

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Can anyone define "Genuine American culture" for me? I can't help but see Norrington's response as a good summary of the the misguided belief held by many Americans; that our issues are unique, and that our culture is under attack, which is what leads so many people to hold irrational political views.
Genuine American culture:
  1. Everyone works for what they want in life, they don't sit at home on welfare complaining that the minimum wage should be raised "because rich people are mean".
  2. People don't explode into flames and have a panic attack because someone disagreed with them.
  3. People have a thick enough skin to deal with life instead of complaining about everything that doesn't go their way.
  4. People respect the laws of society by not trying to exploit them every way they possibly can.
  5. People respect public servants and appreciate what they do to help the country instead of spitting in the coffee cups of police, and calling the military baby killers.
  6. People try to help their local communities and do what they can to improve the lives of others, instead of only trying to gain from society while giving nothing back (like the people who make a career out of welfare)
  7. Raising children to think for themselves instead of allowing others to think for them. This also means the children need to understand the world doesn't revolve around them and their desires, and to be considerate of others. Most young people these days are 100% self centered and act offended if anyone doesn't give them what they want when they want it.
  8. Having pride in your job no matter what job it is. Even If you only flip burgers for a living, be the best burger flipper you can be. Don't just sit back and say "I refuse to do anything above the minimum because I don't get paid a lot".
  9. Respecting people for who they are instead of what they do. Too many people think that a doctor or an engineer are superior in all aspects to a locksmith just because they get paid more. A job does not define who a person is, their actions and personality do.
  10. Not treating people differently because of their physical appearance like skin color. Whether it's being treated different in a good way or a bad way, it shouldn't happen. Should people with certain skin colors be prevented from voting and kept as slaves? No, of course not. Should people with certain skin colors get preferential treatment by the government just for being a minority? No, of course not. A person is a person, and should be treated the same as every other person and judged on their actions only instead of certain groups doing everything they can to get favoritism from the government for their skin color. Perfect example is a story I saw today about the descendants of slaves wanting the government to pay them a fortune in reparations. It's so ridiculous in my opinion. Your ancestor from 150 years ago was mistreated? Yeah that sucks, but since there's not a single person alive today who was around back then get the heck over it and stop trying to get free money and benefits for something you never experienced and has never negatively affected you in any way whatsoever. Multiple family members of mine (who I never met) were Jews who died in the Holocaust, but you don't see me suing the country of Germany for reparations just because I'm descended from those people.
That's kind of a simplistic view of it and it's more complicated than that, but it's difficult to put a general "feeling" of society into words accurately. Hopefully this gives you more insight into what I meant.
 

Eärendil

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I like most of your point, Norry. We agree in most of them. Howerever, I think its important that Germany paid reparations and still does. Saying this as a German who lost family members, too.

So, are those values you have been listed worth defending? If yes, we have to talk about how. The internal affairs are all yours. But there are external affairs and folks that would love to see some of those values deleted from the surface if this planet. All I wanted to say is, that it is better to do this within an alliance of similarly minded folks than outside. I think, Mr. Putin would not care about your values.
 

Captn Norrington

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I like most of your point, Norry. We agree in most of them. Howerever, I think its important that Germany paid reparations and still does. Saying this as a German who lost family members, too.
There is a key difference between that and what I meant though. Germany started paying reparations right after the event happened, to the people and groups who directly experienced it. I'm completely fine with that. What I disagree with is when someone like me who was never directly affected by it tries to profit from it. In 300 years, Germany should not still be paying reparations to the descendants of Holocaust victims. It has been 150+ years since slavery ended, so there is really no logical reason to all of a sudden start paying reparations. If the actual freed-slaves who experienced it wanted reparations I'd completely support that. Not for their great, great, great, great etc. grandchildren though.

I agree with the rest of your post, and yes the values I listed should be defended.
 

Philly

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Captn. sure can write. I'm very impressed with how this was written and expresses my opinions and feelings 100%. I'm not so good with putting it into words. BRAVO Captn. Many people should read this. It speaks nothing but truth!
 

Garen

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Genuine American culture:
  1. Everyone works for what they want in life, they don't sit at home on welfare complaining that the minimum wage should be raised "because rich people are mean".
  2. People don't explode into flames and have a panic attack because someone disagreed with them.
  3. People have a thick enough skin to deal with life instead of complaining about everything that doesn't go their way.
  4. People respect the laws of society by not trying to exploit them every way they possibly can.
  5. People respect public servants and appreciate what they do to help the country instead of spitting in the coffee cups of police, and calling the military baby killers.
  6. People try to help their local communities and do what they can to improve the lives of others, instead of only trying to gain from society while giving nothing back (like the people who make a career out of welfare)
  7. Raising children to think for themselves instead of allowing others to think for them. This also means the children need to understand the world doesn't revolve around them and their desires, and to be considerate of others. Most young people these days are 100% self centered and act offended if anyone doesn't give them what they want when they want it.
  8. Having pride in your job no matter what job it is. Even If you only flip burgers for a living, be the best burger flipper you can be. Don't just sit back and say "I refuse to do anything above the minimum because I don't get paid a lot".
  9. Respecting people for who they are instead of what they do. Too many people think that a doctor or an engineer are superior in all aspects to a locksmith just because they get paid more. A job does not define who a person is, their actions and personality do.
  10. Not treating people differently because of their physical appearance like skin color. Whether it's being treated different in a good way or a bad way, it shouldn't happen. Should people with certain skin colors be prevented from voting and kept as slaves? No, of course not. Should people with certain skin colors get preferential treatment by the government just for being a minority? No, of course not. A person is a person, and should be treated the same as every other person and judged on their actions only instead of certain groups doing everything they can to get favoritism from the government for their skin color. Perfect example is a story I saw today about the descendants of slaves wanting the government to pay them a fortune in reparations. It's so ridiculous in my opinion. Your ancestor from 150 years ago was mistreated? Yeah that sucks, but since there's not a single person alive today who was around back then get the heck over it and stop trying to get free money and benefits for something you never experienced and has never negatively affected you in any way whatsoever. Multiple family members of mine (who I never met) were Jews who died in the Holocaust, but you don't see me suing the country of Germany for reparations just because I'm descended from those people.
That's kind of a simplistic view of it and it's more complicated than that, but it's difficult to put a general "feeling" of society into words accurately. Hopefully this gives you more insight into what I meant.
So is this your ideal society, or was there a time period in U.S. history where this actually existed?
 

Captn Norrington

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So is this your ideal society, or was there a time period in U.S. history where this actually existed?
No society has ever been perfect of course, and I'm not saying life was perfect for everyone in the past. However those values were a lot stronger and a lot more widespread than they are now. When people from other countries talk about "American ideals" and "the American spirit" what I wrote is usually what they mean. It seems to have been the most powerful during the early to mid 1900's with the Industrial revolution and World War II. It started dying off around the 1980's, and by the end of the 1990's it was pretty damaged. It was briefly brought back after 9/11 because the country had a unified cause to rally behind, but then died off again. These days it seems like it doesn't even exist anymore.
 

Garen

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There is a key difference between that and what I meant though. Germany started paying reparations right after the event happened, to the people and groups who directly experienced it. I'm completely fine with that. What I disagree with is when someone like me who was never directly affected by it tries to profit from it. In 300 years, Germany should not still be paying reparations to the descendants of Holocaust victims. It has been 150+ years since slavery ended, so there is really no logical reason to all of a sudden start paying reparations. If the actual freed-slaves who experienced it wanted reparations I'd completely support that. Not for their great, great, great, great etc. grandchildren though.

I agree with the rest of your post, and yes the values I listed should be defended.
But reparations for freed slaves never took off. Reconstruction was canceled, and blacks were not fully integrated into society until the Brown vs Board in 1954, which translates into grand children, not "great, great, great grandchildren." If my grandfather was forced to attend a disadvantaged high school, his opportunities were limited, my fathers upbringing would be affected, not until my very own generation X would I be on equal footing. You're skipping a whole lot of history to justify your current dislikes.
 

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But reparations for freed slaves never took off. Reconstruction was canceled, and blacks were not fully integrated into society until the Brown vs Board in 1954, which translates into grand children, not "great, great, great grandchildren." If my grandfather was forced to attend a disadvantaged high school, his opportunities were limited, my fathers upbringing would be affected, not until my very own generation X would I be on equal footing. You're skipping a whole lot of history to justify your current dislikes.
They aren't asking for reparations for being treated unfairly at school in the 1950's, they are specifically asking for reparations because of slavery. If they worded their request differently and logically brought up things like what you wrote they would have a much stronger case. That's one of the signs that shows me they don't care about justice, only free money. If they truly cared about justice and wanted reparations to compensate them for the unjust treatment of their family in the school system they would say that. When they instead say "because of slavery" they lose all credibility instantly in my eyes.
 

Philly

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I like most of your point, Norry. We agree in most of them. Howerever, I think its important that Germany paid reparations and still does. Saying this as a German who lost family members, too.

So, are those values you have been listed worth defending? If yes, we have to talk about how. The internal affairs are all yours. But there are external affairs and folks that would love to see some of those values deleted from the surface if this planet. All I wanted to say is, that it is better to do this within an alliance of similarly minded folks than outside. I think, Mr. Putin would not care about your values.

May I say this because this is in the back of my mind a lot. America, the United States of America originally just the Indians were here. This country was flooded with people from all sides from all around the world. I am Irish and my family came here as slaves that were treated horrible, worse than the Africans. It is documented. BUT you don't see the Irish asking for reparations. In a like mind I think our country knows we all came here from all over the world. I still do not understand why the "African Americans" can't deal with this like the rest of the country. Also this is why we are different than the rest of the world. You can find ever race here, every religion here and on 9-11 people from 90 countries were lost. They didn't just attack United States they attacked the world. Everyone needs to move on. Just saying.
 

Garen

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No society has ever been perfect of course, and I'm not saying life was perfect for everyone in the past. However those values were a lot stronger and a lot more widespread than they are now. When people from other countries talk about "American ideals" and "the American spirit" what I wrote is usually what they mean. It seems to have been the most powerful during the early to mid 1900's with the Industrial revolution and World War II. It started dying off around the 1980's, and by the end of the 1990's it was pretty damaged. It was briefly brought back after 9/11 because the country had a unified cause to rally behind, but then died off again. These days it seems like it doesn't even exist anymore.
"Not treating people differently because of their physical appearance like skin color."

"It seems to have been the most powerful during the early to mid 1900's with the Industrial revolution and World War II."

Really try to reconcile those two statements because they overlap for for the entirety of the period given in your second statement.
 

Captn Norrington

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"Not treating people differently because of their physical appearance like skin color."

"It seems to have been the most powerful during the early to mid 1900's with the Industrial revolution and World War II."

Really try to reconcile those two statements because they overlap for for the entirety of the period given in your second statement.
You are right that it didn't happen much during the peak time of the other values. However people forget that there were still segments of society back then who did try to treat those of other skin colors with respect, and there were more of those type of people around than people are willing to acknowledge. It wasn't every white person vs. every black person like history tries to describe it. Even going all the way back to actual slavery times not all slave owners treated their slaves as badly as people think. History has only advertised the awful things and extreme abuses, it doesn't mention that some people who owned slaves tried to treat their slaves decently (by the standards of those times, which aren't the same as decently by modern standards) but could not fully free them because their business could not survive without slave labor, therefore they could not provide for their family without the slaves. I'm not saying they treated the slaves as equals, but they were not all whipping slaves for sadistic pleasure daily like history claims either.

The majority of slavery in the United States started with Africans selling other Africans to European colonists by the way, so if we are talking about reparations shouldn't the African countries be the ones paying reparations since they started the entire cycle by selling their own people in the first place?
 

Eärendil

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Reparations were not the issue I wanted to talk about. And I know a bit about history. I know about what happened to south American Indians because of the a Spanish invasion and so on...

But that wasn't my point. I was talking about future. Will the most powerful and most important democracy in the world turn to isolationism and let the dictators around play the big chess game or are we going to stick together like we did (most of the time) since 1945. This is the question that decides about our future. And the more united we are, the more attractive or model of life will be to those who are suffering and search for liberty. If we, however, are divided, the others will get the upper hand. And yes, the Europeans will have to invest much more into this alliance than they did recently.
 

Garen

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doesn't mention that some people who owned slaves tried to treat their slaves decently (by the standards of those times, which aren't the same as decently by modern standards) but could not fully free them because their business could not survive without slave labor
Basically, the white man enslaved the black man, because otherwise the white man would have to feed himself.

"Everyone works for what they want in life, they don't sit at home on welfare complaining that the minimum wage should be raised "because rich people are mean".

I mean if you keep going with this we can debunk all 10 of your points pretty quickly.
 

Captn Norrington

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Basically, the white man enslaved the black man, because otherwise the white man would have to feed himself.

"Everyone works for what they want in life, they don't sit at home on welfare complaining that the minimum wage should be raised "because rich people are mean".

I mean if you keep going with this we can debunk all 10 of your points pretty quickly.
No, you are ignoring the end of my post. The black man enslaved the black man to then sell to the white man for profit. It's not like the Europeans were rampaging through Africa all by themselves. When European explorers arrived in Africa the native African leaders offered to sell them slaves all by themselves. Slavery was already established in African society and had been for many years. Then once those slaves were used and the Europeans realized how profitable it was, they returned to get more slaves and the cycle continued. If the original African leaders had not willingly sold their own people into slavery the Europeans would not have even known that was an available option.
 

Captn Norrington

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Reparations were not the issue I wanted to talk about. And I know a bit about history. I know about what happened to south American Indians because of the a Spanish invasion and so on...

But that wasn't my point. I was talking about future. Will the most powerful and most important democracy in the world turn to isolationism and let the dictators around play the big chess game or are we going to stick together like we did (most of the time) since 1945. This is the question that decides about our future. And the more united we are, the more attractive or model of life will be to those who are suffering and search for liberty. If we, however, are divided, the others will get the upper hand. And yes, the Europeans will have to invest much more into this alliance than they did recently.
Sorry, Garen and I seem to have kind of derailed your thread. That was not my intention. You bring up a very good point.
 

Garen

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No, you are ignoring the end of my post. The black man enslaved the black man to then sell to the white man for profit. It's not like the Europeans were rampaging through Africa all by themselves. When European explorers arrived in Africa the native African leaders offered to sell them slaves all by themselves. Then once those slaves were used and the Europeans realized how profitable it was, they returned to get more slaves and the cycle continued. If the original African leaders had not willingly sold their own people into slavery the Europeans would not have even known that was an available option.
Right, the Europeans were so dumb, they would have never figured out how to exploit people without the African leaders showing them the way.
 

Lord Frodo

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The majority of slavery in the United States started with Africans selling other Africans to European colonists by the way, so if we are talking about reparations shouldn't the African countries be the ones paying reparations since they started the entire cycle by selling their own people in the first place?
AMEN! But they don't want to hear that and when it is said the response I hear often is you didn't have to buy them. Their own people sold them but we are the bad guys for buying them.
 

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Oh my god... This is going in the completely wrong direction. Sorry for opening a thread. I think I should stick to EU-internal issues.
No, no don't worry... people from outside the US doing things like this is actually of some benefit, we've got a media that's largely biased one way or another politically and it is refreshing to get a view from outside the bubble of propaganda they've propagated and helped created. The alternative outlets, are usually either Religious charlatans who exploit the faithful, the plutocratic elite directly or political demagogues who act in the interest of the plutocratic elite who "donate" enough towards their political campaigns to keep them in office.

Lord Acton said it best,
“Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority; still more when you superadd the tendency of the certainty of corruption by authority.”
.
Don't feel bad that you started a thread that went off on a acute tangent, instead take it as a lesson or an insight into the real nature of the beast. We're not perfect, we never will be, but we're muddle through it hopefully, we're still in many ways a young country and like all other countries have had, we've got to deal with our growing pains.
 

Garen

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AMEN! But they don't want to hear that and when it is said the response I hear often is you didn't have to buy them. Their own people sold them but we are the bad guys for buying them.
The tribes living in the continent of Africa practiced slavery like all other societies across the globe since history. They took captives from other ethnic groups as slaves. Africa is not homogeneous, Africans are not all one people.
 

Eärendil

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Sometimes, when I read your domestic discussions, I think you guys seem to forget that there is much more you share, you have in common, than that divides you. It is the world outside the Western hemisphere, which is different. The issues which you build your heated debates upon are just details, many just irrelevant. Just look at north corea, Russia, Turkey, China, the Iran. The normative differences between your parties, our parties, our countries are just peanuts. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, human rights and so on... That is the baseline that divides us from them. That's what unites us. That's what millions of people died for in the last 250 years. That's what billions of people would like to have - but they don't. Compared to these differences, Trump or Clinton, left or right, liberal, social or conservative are all just different shades of the same thing: Democracy. When I watch US television I sometimes wonder where the hatred for Washington, for political candidates, for parties come from. Compared to most other countries, we are living in a paradise. And we need to acknowledge that and work for its future. Together. That's not utopia, that's the historic story of the last 70 years, which were among the best of the whole history of all Western nations. If you forget these lessons, we will loose everything.
 

Lord Frodo

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The tribes living in the continent of Africa practiced slavery like all other societies across the globe since history. They took captives from other ethnic groups as slaves. Africa is not homogeneous, Africans are not all one people.
What other Ethnic Groups, they were all African and all had the same colored skin or do you mean Tribes just like our American Indians. They are all American Indians (Ethnic Group) but they were not all of the same tribe. Africans (Blacks) enslaved other Africans (Blacks) and sold them to whomever paid the price they wanted. Same thing happened with our American Indians but they just incorporated them into the Tribe or traded them to other Tribes or fur traders.
 

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What other Ethnic Groups, they were all African and all had the same colored skin or do you mean Tribes just like our American Indians. They are all American Indians (Ethnic Group) but they were not all of the same tribe. Africans (Blacks) enslaved other Africans (Blacks) and sold them to whomever paid the price they wanted. Same thing happened with our American Indians but they just incorporated them into the Tribe or traded them to other Tribes or fur traders.
Ethnicity doesn't have anything to do with skin color, it's cultural. Even Native American's had various ethnic groups, Mississippian, Inuit, Aleut, Yup'ik, Iroquoian etc...
 

Garen

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What other Ethnic Groups, they were all African and all had the same colored skin or do you mean Tribes just like our American Indians. They are all American Indians (Ethnic Group) but they were not all of the same tribe. Africans (Blacks) enslaved other Africans (Blacks) and sold them to whomever paid the price they wanted. Same thing happened with our American Indians but they just incorporated them into the Tribe or traded them to other Tribes or fur traders.
African and Native American are geographic identifiers. Africa consists of hundreds if not thousands of ethnic groups, ethnic groups are further subdivided into tribes. When African's were enslaving Africans it was between, not within ethnic groups.
 

Captn Norrington

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Capt. Lucky

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There's not enough money in the world to get me to vote for a racist pig that clearly doesn't have a clue how to fiscally run a company much less a nation. A person that says it's smart to screw working people over and not pay for the work delivered to him. Banks won't even give him a loan now and he has to depend on partners to do anything in his chosen field. I could go on for hours but I'm sure you get my drift. His own party finds him deplorable but at least Putin likes him.
 

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There's not enough money in the world to get me to vote for a racist pig that clearly doesn't have a clue how to fiscally run a company much less a nation. A person that says it's smart to screw working people over and not pay for the work delivered to him. Banks won't even give him a loan now and he has to depend on partners to do anything in his chosen field. I could go on for hours but I'm sure you get my drift. His own party finds him deplorable but at least Putin likes him.
You forgot he can pass for Snooki's creepy old uncle.. #Cheetodust
 
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