[Musicianship] Most effective Bard mastery for Blackrock Golems ?

[popps]

Some say Inspire, some say Tribulation.......

Bottom line is, the try reduce the time it takes to kill them, what would be the most effective Bard mastery to be used in your opinion and experience ?

Thanks.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

None of them.

The most effective way to kill a Blackrock Golem is a Thrower, it takes about 8 minutes.

The easiest/laziest way to kill a Blackrock Golem is a Mystic with Rising Colossus, it takes forever.

Despair and Tribulation are both bad ideas as they are streaming damage on a monster that counter attacks, often for 30+ which would end spellsongs.

 

[popps]

None of them.

The most effective way to kill a Blackrock Golem is a Thrower, it takes about 8 minutes.

The easiest/laziest way to kill a Blackrock Golem is a Mystic with Rising Colossus, it takes forever.

Despair and Tribulation are both bad ideas as they are streaming damage on a monster that counter attacks, often for 30+ which would end spellsongs.

Actually, they make things worse, at least when using a pet.

There are weird things in this game, sometimes......

I mean, "supposedly" Bard masteries work also for pets.

Supposedly..........

So, I took a Greater Dragon and timed out what it takes to kill a Blackrock Golem.

Then, using the same exact Greater Dragon I run the "Inspire" Bard mastery while fighting the Blackrock Golem.

"Supposedly", using the inspire bard mastery "should" have provided the Greater Dragon with +16% Hit Chance increase and +40% melee Damage Increase and +16% Spell Damage Increase.

That is, "supposedly", the Greater Dragon should have well cut in half if not more than that the time needed to kill the Blackrock Golem.

Not only it did not, but I actually saw worse performance using the bard mastery than not using it.

This is freaking unbelieveable. Something is "supposed" to make things go a hell of a lot better but then not only it does not, but makes them actually go worse ??

Excuse me ??

I have a feeling that Bard masteries work also for pets only in theory, NOT in practise.........

By the way, that Thrower you were mentioning, care to detail what skills, armor, weapons and special moves/spells you use to cut down to 8 minutes per kill ?

Thank you very much.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I have a feeling that Bard masteries work also for pets only in theory, NOT in practise.........

Two Blackrock Golems would have different resists. Logrus checked a while a go that Inspire does actually do what it is supposed to. You aren't going to see much difference with a Greater Dragon because Blackrock Golems only low resist is cold.

By the way, that Thrower you were mentioning, care to detail what skills, armor, weapons and special moves/spells you use to cut down to 8 minutes per kill ?

Thank you very much.

I have done, it's in the warrior forum, in the thread where you asked the same question. To which I pointed out that I already had done and that the thread was almost a year old, the template had been rebuilt as the new version, and the new version had also been entirely explained.

 

[popps]

I have a feeling that Bard masteries work also for pets only in theory, NOT in practise.........

Two Blackrock Golems would have different resists. Logrus checked a while a go that Inspire does actually do what it is supposed to. You aren't going to see much difference with a Greater Dragon because Blackrock Golems only low resist is cold.

I understand that but regardless, if a Mastery says that it will provide the pet with a boost that gives +16% Spell Damage, +16% Hit Chance Increase and +40% Melee Damage Increase and the Greater Dragon can benefit from all 3 of them well, even if the weak point is cold for a Blackrock Golem and physical is its strongest resistance still, one should be able to see a positive difference.

I did not.

Two Golems can have different resistances, sure, but their differences can never outdo the boost that the Inspire Bard Mastery can provide. I mean, even only the +40% Melee Damage Increase alone should make it for a visible positive difference in shortening the fight.

Yet, it did not.
And I found that very, very disappointing.

I have done, it's in the warrior forum

I will check that again, thanks a lot.

 

[Storm]

another thing to consider is the 40% is max and the dragon hits for 24-33 physical damage so this is 8-12 points roughly so that gives about 32 to 45 damage against 85 resist (i think they are 70 to 85 ) is 4.8 to 6.75 damage compared to 3.6 to 4.95 base damage thats not much of a difference really to notice

maybe my math is faulty here and I am not positive on how pets damage is figured with str etc but still i am thinking this is not much of a difference

or with such high str maybe they are already near cap? maybe try with lesser pets and see ?

 

[popps]

another thing to consider is the 40% is max and the dragon hits for 24-33 physical damage so this is 8-12 points roughly so that gives about 32 to 45 damage against 85 resist (i think they are 70 to 85 ) is 4.8 to 6.75 damage compared to 3.6 to 4.95 base damage thats not much of a difference really to notice

maybe my math is faulty here and I am not positive on how pets damage is figured with str etc but still i am thinking this is not much of a difference

I know a Greater Dragon hits for marginal when fighting a Blackrock Golem which has physical resistance as high. But that's not the point.

Rather than watching at damage, I watched at the overall time of fight.

Meaning, if a Greater Dragon without the inspire Bard mastery on takes at least an hour to kill a Blackrock Golem, using the inspire Bard Mastery which boosts for 40% melee Damage Increase and +16 Spell Damage Increase (the Greater Dragon does also cast spells.....) and also +16% Hit Chance Increase which should make more hits land on the Blackrock Golem as compared when not using the Mastery, the total time to kill it should be shortened to about half an hour if not less.

I did not see this by a very very long shot.

Having the Mastery on made no difference in the time it takes to kill a damn Blackrock Golem with a Greater Dragon.

This shows to me that the Bard Mastery ain't working.

or with such high str maybe they are already near cap? maybe try with lesser pets and see ?

Uhu ??

When I read that the Bard mastery is supposed to work for pets, all pets, and all summoned creatures, indistinctively, there can be no CAP that comes to play.

Otherwise, they would have said that bard masteries only work for chicken pets and summoned fairies........

Saying that it works for pets and summoned clearly means all of them, including Greater Dragons and Colossuses regardless their stats, with no exceptions.

Yet, as I said, I saw no boost whatsoever when using a Greater Dragon with the inspire Bard Mastery on as compared to without.

 

[Storm]

first you are equating 40% increase to half the time !
second what i was trying to point out is the dragon may be closer to the damage cap there for you do not see the difference
in one of the post a dev stated (i would have to find the post you can go look if you want it should be in the bard forum) if a player in the group is at cap or close to it you are not going to see much difference if any!

3rd you are assuming with your timed test the rng is going to be the same every time and as we all know this never works that way!

go find a gollum and attack it with your GD or another pet like a cu and fight it for a few minutes (dont kill it) and see what the physical damage it is doing amounts to!

then run inspire with same pet and same gollum and see if there is a difference

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

This was the thread in which Logrus checked:

http://vboards.stratics.com/uo-bard/228469-logrus-inspire-working-pets.html

 

[popps]

first you are equating 40% increase to half the time !

Well, even if 40% is not 50% (half...), since it is coupled by also +16% Hit Chance Increase and +16% Spell Damage Increase (all boosts which a Greater Dragon "should" benefit from...), I figured that their cumulative effect combined could surge to that 50%, moreless, of a boost which would cut in half the time to kill a target.

If without the boost the Greater Dragon can kill in X time, with a moreless 50% boost the kill should happen in about x/2 = half time, moreless.....

second what i was trying to point out is the dragon may be closer to the damage cap there for you do not see the difference

Should that be the case, this would mean that the Bard Masteries would not work for those pets at high stats and, therefore, the statement that Bard masteries work for any and all pets as well as for any and all summoned creatures, would not be valid.

"If" there were CAP limitations for pets and summoned creatures this would make the bard Masteries only valid for lower pets and lower summoned creatures which, to my understanding, is not the case because from what I can read they are supposed to boost any and all pets as well as any and all summoned creatures which, for example, would include also Greater Dragons and Rising Colossuses........

in one of the post a dev stated (i would have to find the post you can go look if you want it should be in the bard forum) if a player in the group is at cap or close to it you are not going to see much difference if any!

Players and pets/summoned creatures are the same ?

Can players have 600 strength like a Greater Dragon if I may ask ??

It makes no sense whatsoever to treat pets and summoned creature with the same CAPs because they are entirely different. If they are being treated with the same CAPs, then this means Bard Masteries are not working for any and all pets and any and all summoned creatures, obviously, since characters' CAPs are often way, but way lower than some pets' or summoned creatures'.....

If we are going to put a human being and a giraffe under the same roof height, and it is measured by the human's height, I guess the giraffe will end up feeling quite a bit uncomfortable, won't it ??

3rd you are assuming with your timed test the rng is going to be the same every time and as we all know this never works that way!

The RNG might not be the same but since the boost is a considerable one, with 40% melee Damage Increase and +16 Spell Damage Increase (the Greater Dragon does also cast spells.....) and also +16% Hit Chance Increase, even if the RNG might play out a little differently the overall time to kill that same target with that same Greater Dragon should anyways be significantly shortened.

If it is not, then this would only mean to me that the Bard mastery is not working.

go find a gollum and attack it with your GD or another pet like a cu and fight it for a few minutes (dont kill it) and see what the physical damage it is doing amounts to!

then run inspire with same pet and same gollum and see if there is a difference

Unfortunately, since loring the Blackrock Golem does not show the hit points, it is difficult to tell whether the test with the Bard mastery on results in more hit points taken off in the same time frame. When loring the Golem one can only see ???/??? where hit points should be shown. So, I feel that this type of a test would be much less accurate than doing it with some other type of a target.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I usually use Rotting Corpse Parragons as test creatures. They have about 6k HP I think.

 

[Storm]

I was talking the damage numbers that show on the screen not the hps

and really do we want something that makes a GD 50% more powerfull they are already the most powerfull pet in the game! if they make them more powerfull like that you are going to here screams on these boards I promise you!

 

[popps]

and really do we want something that makes a GD 50% more powerfull they are already the most powerfull pet in the game! if they make them more powerfull like that you are going to here screams on these boards I promise you!

Uhu ??

What are you talking about ???

A Sampire can take down a Blackrock Golem in 10 minutes, a Greater Dragon from 60 to 90 minutes.

Who is more powertfull here ???

Is it the Greater Dragon who can solo most (if not all) high end MoBs in the game or Sampires ??

If you are looking at uber powerfull fighters those are certainly not the Greater Dragons...

There is other fighters in the game way, but waaaaay more powerfull and effective at PvM.

So, helping out the Greater Dragons catch up with the lower fighting ability I really do not see it as big deal at all.

Besides, from your post do I need to conclude that Bard Masteries do not work for pets, or at least not for pets like the Greater Dragon ??

 

[Storm]

Whatever I am done if you dont like the skill dont use it ! send a bug report have you even done that if you think its messed up!! I bet not you just want to argue

and GD are pets sampires are not GD are a tool like a sword

 

[popps]

Whatever I am done if you dont like the skill dont use it ! send a bug report have you even done that if you think its messed up!! I bet not you just want to argue

It is not that I don't like the Inspire Bard mastery. I like it as it is described "on paper".

Only, I would like it to deliver what it says : the +40% Melee Damage Increase, +16% Hit Chance Increase and +16% Spell Damage Increase for any and all pets and any and all summoned creatures.

That is, I would like to actually "see" the effects of the bonus not just think I have it but not see it in reality.........

and GD are pets sampires are not GD are a tool like a sword

And so what ?

The bottom line is what one can get done in the game and Sampires can do 10, 20 times more that a Greater Dragon can do. There simply is no match whatsoever so, saying that Greater Dragons are this powerfull fighter is nonsense when a Sampire can bring home way, but waaaaay more than a Greater Dragon ever could.

 

[Wenchkin]

Popps, fill in a bug report...give Logrus a chance to reply if he wants to and has the time. I'm not sure what you expect to achieve by continuing to argue. We already heard and understood the points you made.

If you want the damage output of a sampire, make a sampire. If a GD isn't strong enough for you on a bard tamer, well I think your expectations for the template are always going to be far beyond what you'll achieve even if all the masteries worked exactly as you wanted them to.

Wenchy

 

[Stickypaws]

The bottom line is what one can get done in the game and Sampires can do 10, 20 times more that a Greater Dragon can do. There simply is no match whatsoever so, saying that Greater Dragons are this powerfull fighter is nonsense when a Sampire can bring home way, but waaaaay more than a Greater Dragon ever could.

Sampire = 720 Skill Points + 20 Mill gold for a good suit.

Greater Dragon = 240 Skill points + 0 gold.

Did you see what I did there? >.>

 

[Zero Day]

Best damage increase would be off tribulation.
That will give you up to 50% true damage increase on your hits.

Inspire -is- working correctly at least on TC when I tested it, as consistent with what Logrus said it does and what other people tested assuming the damage increase is going to base damage and not overall damage.

Which when I use it on my melee char or test with lored mobs thats how it seems to be working.


As such I usually run the peace masteries for my pets because I can keep them both up at once and the more damage they hit my pet for the more effective preservance is. Resilience is just nice I think because of the hp regen but the other benefits which I havent measured and only have theory for are that the stamina regen keeps my pet pookie attacking fast, the mana regen keeps him casting. (And since he's taking less damage that also helps keep his stamina high).

Not that its directly helping him kill faster. I just dont have the mana regen for tribulation. Though the hit SDI and HCI probably work similarly to resilience in limiting the targets damage output and help keep pookie alive longer as a side effect in addition the bonus damage.

 

[popps]

If you want the damage output of a sampire, make a sampire. If a GD isn't strong enough for you on a bard tamer, well I think your expectations for the template are always going to be far beyond what you'll achieve even if all the masteries worked exactly as you wanted them to.

Well, I was simply replying to a Post saying that Greater Dragons did not need to be more powerfull than what they (supposedly) might be and, therefore, it was my understanding, letting Bard Masteries to boost Greater Dragons' effectiveness in combat was overdoing.

I needed to argue with that for a number of reasons.

The first being that "supposedly", Bard Masteries were intended to be a bonus for any and all pets, Greater Dragons included, and any and all summoned creatures. So, whether one might or not believe them as strong enough was pointless since Bard masteries were intended to also work for them.

The second point being, that I wanted to argue with the (wrong, IMHO) opinion that Greater Dragons are such a force of Nature. In comparison to Sampires, they are certainly not, just as 1 example......

And Sampires, when in a party, do get the boost from Bard masteries, imagine that.........

So, a way, but waaaaaaaaaay more powerfull fighter as a Sampire gets even further boosted by Bard Masteries but Greater Dragons which are only a tiny fraction of that fighting power do not seem to get much of a bonus from Bard Masteries ??

Excuse me ?

And Greater Dragons are to be penalized but Sampires not ?

Hallo ???

 

[Stickypaws]

And Greater Dragons are to be penalized but Sampires not ?

Hallo ???

Hmmms wait... I think I got this one....

Sampire = 720 Skill Points + 20 Mill gold for a good suit.

Greater Dragon = 240 Skill points + 0 gold.

Did you see what I did there? >.>

What penalty do ya haves fer a greater dragon?

Repetition is boring, repetition is boring ^^

 

[Kiminality]

The second point being, that I wanted to argue with the (wrong, IMHO) opinion that Greater Dragons are such a force of Nature. In comparison to Sampires, they are certainly not, just as 1 example......

A sampire is a complete template investment, a greater dragon isn't.

 

[popps]

Sampire = 720 Skill Points + 20 Mill gold for a good suit.

Greater Dragon = 240 Skill points + 0 gold.

Did you see what I did there? >.>

I disagree.

A good Greater Dragon either needs a lot of time invested into finding the right one and many deaths when taming it, or having to spend several millions to buy the right one.

Skills ?

If we are discussing about tamer/bards, as we are in this Forum and thread, then we are looking at :

- 120 Animal Taming
- 120 Animal Lore
- 120 Veterinary
- 120 Musicianship
- 120 Provocation/Peacemaking/Discordance
- 120 Magery

And a suit that can also be quite expensive to have several needed mods like 100 LRC, Resistances, LMC and MR (keeping up with mana for a Bard mastery without having Meditation is hard and can spell for an expensive suit) and so forth.

So, a good Tamer/Bard can be as expensive and need as much time to put together as a Sampire if not more.

 

[Kiminality]

So, a good Tamer/Bard can be as expensive and need as much time to put together as a Sampire if not more.

And a tamer/bard has a lot more flexibility.
Perhaps not with the creatures you're fighting, but you have all manner of crowd control and support abilities at your disposal.
A sampire has hitting the opponent and... um... hitting the opponent some more.

You are, however, comparing apples and oranges.
You will not balance sampires and tamers in all cases, because each has their own strengths and weaknesses, flexibilities and limitations.
Ditch your support skills, and focus them on dealing damage, and you'll come closer to your dream.

 

[Stickypaws]

You don't need 120 magery to be a tamer bard! Narffle dun be such a silly billy! You need 100% LRC? Rofflenom!

Many deaths taming one? Ohs noes! Your a bard tamer. See my sig? Thats how I tame as an arcanist tamer. Nice n naked! Dun be such a wussy! You dont need to buy a 4.5 greater, go tame a 3.5 and use that until you find a 4.+

Need an all 70's suit? You should also not be getting hit. The odd smack now and then, but your a tamer bard, not a warrior, if your getting hit, you're doing it wrong ^^

Popps you is officially the biggest dingbat (and/or troll) I has ever encountered ^^

 

[popps]

A sampire is a complete template investment, a greater dragon isn't.

Excuse me ?

To find a good Greater Dragon needs a LOT of patience.

One that not only has the right stats but also the right skills.

They spawn 1 in a blue moon and may require hundreds upon hundreds of attempts.

Not to mention, the 720 points it takes for a Tamer/Bard and the expensive suit needed to host resistances, LRC, LMC, MR pushed beyond the roof to keep up with the mana consumption of the Bard masteries without Meditation and so forth.

Making a Sampire I would say is perhaps even easier than making a really good Tamer/Bard with a good Greater Dragon.

Yet, a Sampire can bring home far, but really far more that what a Tamer/Bard with a good Greater Dragon can.

And I even have to hear that Greater Dragons are too powerfull ?

And Sampires then ???

Give me a break........

 

[Wenchkin]

Well, I was simply replying to a Post saying that Greater Dragons did not need to be more powerfull than what they (supposedly) might be and, therefore, it was my understanding, letting Bard Masteries to boost Greater Dragons' effectiveness in combat was overdoing.

I needed to argue with that for a number of reasons.

The first being that "supposedly", Bard Masteries were intended to be a bonus for any and all pets, Greater Dragons included, and any and all summoned creatures. So, whether one might or not believe them as strong enough was pointless since Bard masteries were intended to also work for them.

The second point being, that I wanted to argue with the (wrong, IMHO) opinion that Greater Dragons are such a force of Nature. In comparison to Sampires, they are certainly not, just as 1 example......

And Sampires, when in a party, do get the boost from Bard masteries, imagine that.........

So, a way, but waaaaaaaaaay more powerfull fighter as a Sampire gets even further boosted by Bard Masteries but Greater Dragons which are only a tiny fraction of that fighting power do not seem to get much of a bonus from Bard Masteries ??

Excuse me ?

And Greater Dragons are to be penalized but Sampires not ?

Hallo ???

Like you've been advised twice now - fill in a bug report. Wait for Logrus if he has time to post.

I merely pointed out to you that expecting anything like sampire damage on a tamer bard was probably not a reasonable expectation. That if you wanted that level of damage then a sampire would be a better option.

Wenchy

 

[Kiminality]

Excuse me ?

To find a good Greater Dragon needs a LOT of patience.

One that not only has the right stats but also the right skills.

They spawn 1 in a blue moon and may require hundreds upon hundreds of attempts.

Not to mention, the 720 points it takes for a Tamer/Bard and the expensive suit needed to host resistances, LRC, LMC, MR pushed beyond the roof to keep up with the mana consumption of the Bard masteries without Meditation and so forth.

Making a Sampire I would say is perhaps even easier than making a really good Tamer/Bard with a good Greater Dragon.

Yet, a Sampire can bring home far, but really far more that what a Tamer/Bard with a good Greater Dragon can.

And I even have to hear that Greater Dragons are too powerfull ?

And Sampires then ???

Give me a break........

I really, really want to say what else takes a lot of patience... and hundreds and hundreds of attempts...

So... You're advocating for having a dragon to give you, effectively, 360 free skill points.
You want the ownership of the greater dragon, and the 360 skill points for best control chance, to have the same combat effectiveness as a fully template-invested sampire (720 points).
If you don't see the problem with that, then...

Uhu ??

 

[Taylor]

Also consider that melee toons are constantly in danger, whereas tamers rarely are. I love tamers. I have several. But they are much easier to play than melee characters. Sampires need the boost.

 

[popps]

You don't need 120 magery to be a tamer bard! Narffle dun be such a silly billy! You need 100% LRC? Rofflenom!

As a Tamer, there are many instances where one cannot vet a pet while in a fight.

Why ?

Because of area effect spells, MoBs teleporting the tamer onto them etc.

Meaning, that one needs to Greater Heal the pet from a distance.

But without 100% LRC and very high MR this is hardly possible.

You dont need to buy a 4.5 greater, go tame a 3.5 and use that until you find a 4.+

Hmmmm, a Sampire can fine tune suit/armor but a Tamer should not fine tune a pet ?
Right............

Need an all 70's suit? You should also not be getting hit. The odd smack now and then, but your a tamer bard, not a warrior, if your getting hit, you're doing it wrong ^^

The answer here is side spawn.
Very often as a Tamer and while vetting a pet that is keeping a nasty MoB busy, occasionally comes side spawn to disrupt the tamer vetting the pet. Having an all 70 suit allows for the Tamer more time to deal with the situation without necessarily having to run away leaving the pet without vetting.

With some high end stuff leaving a pet without vetting even for a few seconds can mean the pet's death. So, having an all 70s suit allows for staying right there, vetting the pet busy in the fight and have more time to deal with the side spawn targeting the tamer.

 

[Stickypaws]

Meaning, that one needs to Greater Heal the pet from a distance.

Greater heal doesnt require 120 magery.

Magery, your doing it wrong! ^^

MR I will give you, spend some of saved points in Meditation

Hmmmm, a Sampire can fine tune suit/armor but a Tamer should not fine tune a pet ?
Right............

Fine tuning is using a 3.5 untill you find your 4.+

Taming, your doing it wrong! ^^

The answer here is side spawn.
Very often as a Tamer and while vetting a pet that is keeping a nasty MoB busy, occasionally comes side spawn to disrupt the tamer vetting the pet. Having an all 70 suit allows for the Tamer more time to deal with the situation without necessarily having to run away leaving the pet without vetting.

With some high end stuff leaving a pet without vetting even for a few seconds can mean the pet's death. So, having an all 70s suit allows for staying right there, vetting the pet busy in the fight and have more time to deal with the side spawn targeting the tamer.

I have done champ spawns as a naked tamer. Infact, back in yonder year, most tamers did champ spawns naked / weak on armour.

Being a man, your doing it wrong! ^^

I have nearly ended myself laughing reading this thread, Popps I cannot believe you are being serious with this. Cause if you are... Gah.. Cant go there ^^

 

[popps]

I really, really want to say what else takes a lot of patience... and hundreds and hundreds of attempts...

So... You're advocating for having a dragon to give you, effectively, 360 free skill points.
You want the ownership of the greater dragon, and the 360 skill points for best control chance, to have the same combat effectiveness as a fully template-invested sampire (720 points).
If you don't see the problem with that, then...

Uhu ??

No.

I want not the 360 tamer only to have that equality with a Sampire, but certainly, I want a 720 Bard/Tamer using Bard Masteries using expensive suits to keep up with the high mana consumptions to keep up with the Mastery use to be equally effective to a Sampire in combat.....

That's why I am debating that Bard masteries do not do much justice to Tamers as they should.

 

[Wenchkin]

No.

I want not the 360 tamer only to have that equality with a Sampire, but certainly, I want a 720 Bard/Tamer using Bard Masteries using expensive suits to keep up with the high mana consumptions to keep up with the Mastery use to be equally effective to a Sampire in combat.....

That's why I am debating that Bard masteries do not do much justice to Tamers as they should.

Taming should never be equal to an overpowered template, that template should be balanced down not the other way round.

Otherwise all the other templates which aren't taming or sampire need to be boosted yet further and we're all stupidly powerful.

The masteries should work as intended, but tamers do not need any more power beyond that.

Fill in a bug report and how about skipping the tamer v sampire debate for another day?

Wenchy

 

[popps]

I have done champ spawns as a naked tamer. Infact, back in yonder year, most tamers did champ spawns naked / weak on armour.

The issue is not just doing side spawns. For that you are right, they can be handled even as naked.

The issue is having a pet fighting a big Boss, one that hits hard requiring the pet to be vetted a go go without even interrupting the vetting (or the healing) for a few seconds because otherwise the pet is dead.

In these scenarios, which usually have also side spawns, the tamer gets in a nasty situation when not having an all 70s suit because when side spawn approaches while the Tamer is holding up the pet alive, vetting it or healing it against the "big" guy, if the side spawn gets the tamer to run, the pet is dead within seconds.

Having an all 70s suit allows the time to also deal with the side spawn while maintaining the pet that is fighting the "big" guy alive........

 

[popps]

Taming should never be equal to an overpowered template, that template should be balanced down not the other way round.

On this I can certainly agree with you.

Thing is, that I was replying to a post claiming that it was the Greater Dragon that did not need further help while the Sampire was left be......

So, I had to argue that I believed the Greater Dragon certainly not overpowered when compared to a Sampire which is definately, and certainly, IMHO, an overpowered fighter.........

 

[Kiminality]

No.

I want not the 360 tamer only to have that equality with a Sampire, but certainly, I want a 720 Bard/Tamer using Bard Masteries using expensive suits to keep up with the high mana consumptions to keep up with the Mastery use to be equally effective to a Sampire in combat.....

That's why I am debating that Bard masteries do not do much justice to Tamers as they should.

The tamer/bard template has many strengths that the sampire doesn't. If you want that template to be equal to the sampire, you'd have to give the sampire the support benefits of the tamer/bard:
Conditional immunity to damage (from pet "tanking")
Ability to perform crowd control (from bard skills)
Ability to supplement DPS with spells without interrupting basic DPS (from casting while pet's fighting)
Ability to repair equipment on the fly (pet healing)

Without such balancing measures, what you're proposing is exactly what I stated previously.
You can uhu, hallo and excuse me until you're blue in the face. That will not change the nature or details of what you're requesting.
I'm not discussing this any further with you, because you're not discussing - you're disagreeing with everything anyone says that isn't agreeing with you, and restating your original point.
That's not discussing, that's a spiel.

 

[popps]

Number one, I am discussing the argument only from my point of view just like others are from theirs.

The tamer/bard template has many strengths that the sampire doesn't. If you want that template to be equal to the sampire, you'd have to give the sampire the support benefits of the tamer/bard:
Conditional immunity to damage (from pet "tanking")

In a way it is there already also for the Sampire. It is called Life Leech.
That is, without much effort other than hitting the target, the Sampire gets all the heal wanted and some more even.

Ability to perform crowd control (from bard skills)

There is only room for 1 Bardic skill so, this ability is extremely limited. I would not call it that big of a deal. Besides, usually high end MoBs have all sorts of immunity from bardic skills like they cannot be provoked, or discorded and blah blah. So, if we are discussiing about high end game I hardly see any point in favour of Bard/Tamers here.

Ability to supplement DPS with spells without interrupting basic DPS (from casting while pet's fighting)

Since as of now in the entire game the Sampire looks to be the one fighter capable of doing the most damage, I am not sure how you can even bring up that point...
I read posts of damage done records broken one right after the other with numbers going up the roof using a Sampire. I would not be surprised to read a post soon of someone with a Sampire doing 500 damage per hit and hits on a Sampire are usually every 1.5 seconds.......

Ability to repair equipment on the fly (pet healing)

with 255/255 durability points I do not see this really as an issue, really.

Without such balancing measures, what you're proposing is exactly what I stated previously.
You can uhu, hallo and excuse me until you're blue in the face. That will not change the nature or details of what you're requesting.

As pointed out, the balancing measures are all there and actually, several favour the Sampire rather than the tamers, IMHO, and quite some.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Popps' response to:
"Greater Dragons are already the toughest pet."
Was:
"No they aren't, but even if they were they should still get the bonus."

He is correct.

Despite addressing this point, this point is not the topic, the topic is why a 40% damage bonus actually results in a pitiful 8% bonus. In game we do not see base numbers applied we only see clioc descriptions, so what the Bard book should really read is "40% not taking into account the resists of the target or other factors".

 

[popps]

Despite addressing this point, this point is not the topic, the topic is why a 40% damage bonus actually results in a pitiful 8% bonus. In game we do not see base numbers applied we only see clioc descriptions, so what the Bard book should really read is "40% not taking into account the resists of the target or other factors".

That is what I was trying to say. Thanks.

This is supposedly an entertainment product not some sort of a calculus toy to play around with math and numbers......or at least I would hope so.

If the damn boost to pets ends up being 8% well, then I guess a player would like to read the actual true 8% boost in the Mastery detailed informations and NOT the theoretical 40%.

It helps players nothing to "read" +40% when they end up getting a +8%. It may only upset players and make them feel deprived of all the time imvested to set up skills and armor "thinking" they would end up with a nice +40% to only get infact a +8%.

Some clarity in what one really gets as a bonus rather than have to do complex calculations to figure it out would be much welcomed, IMHO.

I just read about the new Devs video and how they want to attract new players to the game. All fine and dandy, I am all for new players coming to UO only, I do not think that a game with such complex calculations needed to be done by players in order to be efficient and competitive at playing it is the right way to attract new players.

I think someone said something like "keep it simple......". I would imagine it could also work for Ultima Online...

 

[Barry Gibb]

Despite addressing this point, this point is not the topic, the topic is why a 40% damage bonus actually results in a pitiful 8% bonus. In game we do not see base numbers applied we only see clioc descriptions, so what the Bard book should really read is "40% not taking into account the resists of the target or other factors".

This is the case for all DI then, as the damage is always calculated prior to the target's resists getting factored in (except for some of the special moves and the like).

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[Barry Gibb]

Some clarity in what one really gets as a bonus rather than have to do complex calculations to figure it out would be much welcomed, IMHO.

The calculations are quite simple. There is nothing complex about them. Once you learn how to use fractions and percentages in grade school, you have all th math skills to figure this out.

It has been explained several times already, but I will try as well (the numbers are made up for easy demonstration).
Take the base damage: lets just use 20-40
Take all the DI factors: lets just say it totals 60%
Figure out the new, modified damage range:

• Low = 20+20*0.6 = 32;
• High = 40+40*0.6 = 64;
• New/Modified damage is 32-64, which is what you will see against a 0 matching resist target.

Factor in the target's resist (it is a flat percentage damage absorbtion, so the damage that get applied is equal to 100-XX Resist), let's just use 70 matching resist (so only 30% gets dealt), to determine the final damage range:

• Low = 32*0.7 = 9.6
• High = 64*0.7 = 19.2
• Final damage range is 9.6-19.2, which is what you would expect against a well armored opponent. The damage is rounded to an integer, but I chose not to so the math can be followed easily.

If your damage type matches up to the target's lowest resist, let's just use 40%, then the final damage range would be 19.2-38.4. This is a significant improvement.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[Storm]

very well put

 

[Zero Day]

40% damage bonus is 40% damage bonus.

You are missing the point that you already have 350% damage bonus on top of your base damage. So if you thought you were gonna get an 1.4 * 450% you'd actually be getting a 180% increase not a 40% increase. It's not that hard to understand.

In UO your base damage is whatever weapon you are holding. Or 1-4 Bare handed.

All calculations for Damage Bonuses in UO are based on your base damage.
Damage Modifiers such as slayers, perfection and enemy of one are actually damage multipliers not bonuses.

So I guess players may get confused where + 40% is not the same as 1.4X because of the wording, but anyone who reads, tests or actually pays attention in game should be able to figure that out.

Inspire = + 40%

Player Damage = Total Damage Bonus% * Base Damage * Damage Multipliers
With Inspire = ((40% + CurrentDamage Increase %) * Base Damage) * Damage Multipliers


Final Increase% = (InspireTotal - RegDamage) / Reg Damage


So yeh you can get 40% that only works out to 8% and Lord GOD as a PvPers you should already know that a Good hit spell on a weapon is better than 100% damage increase on items because its to the base damage not final damage.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Lord GOD as a PvPers you should already know that a Good hit spell on a weapon is better than 100% damage increase on items because its to the base damage not final damage.

I don't agree that one is better than the other at all, they serve entirely different purposes, and although there are people who build their PvPers to only be capable of PvP, I am not one of them. I build characters that can PvP and kill the champ if needed, and as such have both 100 DI and Hit Spell, depending on the weapon/purpose.

I don't really see how your comment is relavent to this thread.

If I build a PvMer it's job is just to PvM.
If I build a PvPer it's usually able to do both PvP and PvM.

 

[Zero Day]

The relevance is that in building all your templates, -you- know the difference between and limitations of that 100% Damage increase. Ie that an additional 100% damage increase will not give you double total damage, but rather will simply give you a further 100% of your base damage, which is less than what a hit spell would give you.

And that you've been playing, posting and building templates long enough that you seem to be putting all your focus into how the hell does 40% work out to 8% (so you suddenly chose to forget how game mechanics work? after it was already clearly laid out). Which it looks like you pulled a popps and skimmed over exactly how it works out (and for everywhere else where theres a damage bonus and not a multiplier) and harped on why does it work this way instead of, hey this really isnt enough to be effective. Which is where the argument should be, not on how it works out.

 

[popps]

The calculations are quite simple. There is nothing complex about them. Once you learn how to use fractions and percentages in grade school, you have all th math skills to figure this out.

It has been explained several times already, but I will try as well (the numbers are made up for easy demonstration).
Take the base damage: lets just use 20-40
Take all the DI factors: lets just say it totals 60%
Figure out the new, modified damage range:

• Low = 20+20*0.6 = 32;
• High = 40+40*0.6 = 64;
• New/Modified damage is 32-64, which is what you will see against a 0 matching resist target.

Factor in the target's resist (it is a flat percentage damage absorbtion, so the damage that get applied is equal to 100-XX Resist), let's just use 70 matching resist (so only 30% gets dealt), to determine the final damage range:

• Low = 32*0.7 = 9.6
• High = 64*0.7 = 19.2
• Final damage range is 9.6-19.2, which is what you would expect against a well armored opponent. The damage is rounded to an integer, but I chose not to so the math can be followed easily.

If your damage type matches up to the target's lowest resist, let's just use 40%, then the final damage range would be 19.2-38.4. This is a significant improvement.

Stayin Alive,

BG

Thank you for the well detailed explaination but the point I was trying to get through, is that as a player I'd rather see a figure that has already done the calculations for me rather than some other figure that requires me to do all of the calculations to figure out what the actual bonus will be.....

For example, in regards of the inspire bard Mastery which we are talking about, the figure "before" calculations is a bonus of +40% Melee Damage Increase which ends up being more like +8* Melee Damage Increase.

So, as a player, rather than having to do all of the calculations myself I'd much more prefer to see the +8% displayed (which is what one will actually get in reality) rather than the +40% which is more nominal, in "theory"......

Bottom line is, I would like to see displayed the bonus that I actually get (the 8%), not one that I "think" I will get when reality will make it 1/fifth of that........

This way, I can figure out on the fly whether a given bonus interests me or I better not bother with it at all.

 

[popps]

So I guess players may get confused where + 40% is not the same as 1.4X because of the wording, but anyone who reads, tests or actually pays attention in game should be able to figure that out.

Yes, exactly. My understanding was that the +40% Melee Damage Increase was actually a x1.4 modifier........

That's why I got upset when I did not see my fighting time against a Blackrock Golem cut in half, consequentially.

Since now I see that the bonus is a mere 8%, I can see how it really is not worth it for me to invest 240 skill points and a suit needing to carry a whole lot of MR to keep up with the Bard mastery consumption.

The results are for me not worth the effort, simply.

I just wished I had known this before I even bothered with Bard Masteries for pets, it would have saved me a whole lot of time and gold in putting up a working suit for the task.

 

[Barry Gibb]

Bottom line is, I would like to see displayed the bonus that I actually get (the 8%), not one that I "think" I will get when reality will make it 1/fifth of that........

The currently displayed bonus is correct, you do get 40% DI. You will see the full effect of the DI against a 0 resist opponent. Everything you see for DI and damage range in your status bar is against a 0 resist opponent.

What you are looking for is a way to display the final damage numbers based on your opponents resist that the game predicts you will be facing. This is not going to happen. This would require drastic change to the core of the game mechanics for everything, and would most likely break over half of the other game mechanics if they tried to do it. Everything the game calculates is based solely on your character's abilities and bonuses with no consideration of your opponents abilities and bonuses. How would the game know who/what you plan to fight so it can factor in the target's resist. Now that you have the math layed out in front of you, you can see how easy the calculations are (simple multiplication). You can determine if something is worth your effort, and if you want to save money and resources you can do this on TC.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[Petra Fyde]

In the firm belief that there can be no possible answer better than the one Barry Gibb just provided I am declaring this 'discussion' closed

Thank you very much Barry.