Modern MMORPGs, Ultima Online and You !

[Reddeath]

tl;dr Version: Do you think if EA updated the graphics to something along the lines of what WoW or Warhammer uses and polished the game mechanics, that it would breath new life into UO ?



I'm a long time MMO player. I started with UO (7 year vet), then moved to SWG, then to WoW and now I'm at WAR (tried almost all MMOs, but only paid to play those). UO has caught my attention again recently with the new expansion on the way and the recent comments made by Mark Jacobs and it got me thinking. If EA was going to pull the plug on UO, then apparently they think it's about done running it's course. They must be figuring out about when to end UO, since WAR is EA's prominent entry into the MMO market. They've tried numerous times to make UO more "Appealing" in the graphics department, to attract new players, but each time has failed or hasn't been as successful as they wanted it to be. So with that in my mind, the idea popped up of Ultima X: Odyssey. This was announced in the early 2000s and looked extremely promising but was put on hold. What put this into my head, was that:

A. This games graphical style is closely related to WoW's cartoony style.
B. If this game wasn't cancelled, it would've came out sometime around WoW's initial launch. Which could've offset things from the way they are today (with WoW being the biggest MMO in the world)
C. Shows that another Ultima Online-esque game can use a different view point than Isometric and still be accepted by fans

Those three things led me to this: If EA reworked the graphics in UO to be in a third person view like numerous other successful games (WoW, WAR, EQ) would you still play ? Understand that this is just graphically speaking, the gameplay will still be the same. You'll have your 700 skill points, custom housing system and different facets, i.e. all the things that made UO unique to begin with.

I think that if they did this, fixed any needed gameplay balances/changes and started a new advertising campaign, that UO would have a significant boost in player population.

What do you guys think ?

 

[Nexus]

I'm less concerned about Warhammer being a death knell for UO than the upcoming MMO from EA newest acquisition BIOWare. They are doing a MMO based around the Knights of the Old Republic games. I was watching an interview with some of the Developers and folks from the Studio and they said that it's already got more content developed than every other BioWare RPG combined. When you look back at their titles...Neverwinter Knights, Neverwinter Knights 2, Bladur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II and their various expansions..that's a TON of content already on the table and it's still in development......add to it being set in a popular universe, and Bioware's reputation for excellent games......

I also think that any future Ultima based MMO would be painted with the same Brush as UO, has been. Every single site that maintains a Review of UO has responses and comments about the rampant cheating in game...That would be a huge thing to surpass.

 

[Reddeath]

I'm less concerned about Warhammer being a death knell for UO than the upcoming MMO from EA newest acquisition BIOWare. They are doing a MMO based around the Knights of the Old Republic games. I was watching an interview with some of the Developers and folks from the Studio and they said that it's already got more content developed than every other BioWare RPG combined. When you look back at their titles...Neverwinter Knights, Neverwinter Knights 2, Bladur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II and their various expansions..that's a TON of content already on the table and it's still in development......add to it being set in a popular universe, and Bioware's reputation for excellent games......

That game shouldn't be a problem. They're giving each character their own story line for the most part and from what I've read/seen, the system they're using for PvE is going to make it into a Online Single Player game, plus, there's a lot of people pissed off about how they're making it look graphically (I must say, it doesn't look any bit like the original KOTOR).


Anyways, what do you all think about what I originally posted ?

 

[THP]

Do u honestly thing WOW looks better than UO ??? SEROIUSLY > Trouble with wow is the zoom in and out crap view ??Have u seen wow close up shots..up at trees and walls etc etc ,its like soooooo blocky, agreed it may look nice on the eye on a distant panaramic view.I would sooner have a fixed point view like UO , maybe with more polished graphics - but definate fixed point camera angle.

 

[Coldren]

I voted for the third option for one simple reason:

I don't believe anything can be done with the current incantation of UO to make it better, or rather, more competitive in the current market. It's too big, bloated, and "established", and by that I mean the veteran player base would never support any radical changes that would alter it's current gameplay.

They need to make an entirely new game based on UO lore, with a skill based advancement system, housing, and an equally deep crafting system. UO is what it is, and nothing is going to change what it is today into something more desirable. They need a true sequel.

UO:X didn't do what I think needed to be done. It seemed to be taking UO in a different direction.

 

[Reddeath]

Do u honestly thing WOW looks better than UO ??? SEROIUSLY > Trouble with wow is the zoom in and out crap view ??Have u seen wow close up shots..up at trees and walls etc etc ,its like soooooo blocky, agreed it may look nice on the eye on a distant panaramic view.I would sooner have a fixed point view like UO , maybe with more polished graphics - but definate fixed point camera angle.

To tell you the truth, if UO used WoW's graphic engine (Not the theme, just the engine) I think the game would run and look a lot better.

Graphically, for how well it runs and for what you get to look at, I think this looks just fine:

http://news.filefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/wow_wotlk-ss36-hires.jpg


I mean, look at Ultima X: Odyssey:

http://uo.stratics.com/newspics/uxo_screen071903.jpg

That was what the screenshots looked like in late 2003. If WoW can get by with almost the exact same thing, then I'm pretty sure it's fine. Besides, you've gotta remember that the engine has to be efficient enough to show dozens of characters on screen at once, doing things. For what you see in the WoW screenshot or UXO one, I say they run pretty damn efficient.

 

[Coldren]

To tell you the truth, if UO used WoW's graphic engine (Not the theme, just the engine) I think the game would run and look a lot better.

I don't think that engine would run as smooth as you think.

Consider all the itemization, customizable housing, and tweaks just for harvesting resources that would be needed to adapt to what UO currently contains.

Now imagine the load times as every unique item and configuration possible is loaded all at once as you run through just Luna.

 

[Reddeath]

I voted for the third option for one simple reason:

I don't believe anything can be done with the current incantation of UO to make it better, or rather, more competitive in the current market. It's too big, bloated, and "established", and by that I mean the veteran player base would never support any radical changes that would alter it's current gameplay.

They need to make an entirely new game based on UO lore, with a skill based advancement system, housing, and an equally deep crafting system. UO is what it is, and nothing is going to change what it is today into something more desirable. They need a true sequel.

UO:X didn't do what I think needed to be done. It seemed to be taking UO in a different direction.

Well, if they added in the whole graphics update with an expansion, I don't see why not. I mean, if they do a good job on it and really get the advertising department doing their thing, UO would receive more members than they would lose. The current iteration of members has went through two graphic upgrades, the first being a failure (Yes, I used the F word) and the second one just not doing the game justice. I think if they can go through two bad graphic upgrades, I'm pretty sure they can live through another that would undoubtedly change the game as they know it, but at the same time, giving it the boost it needs to live on with the current generation of MMOs. There's only so much time left before EA pulls the plug. I don't want to say this, but I'd bet it's sooner, rather than later.

 

[Black Sun]

I can get behind a 3D version of UO, but if they'd do it, but they would have to do it right. None of this half-assed crap that is KR.

I used to play SWG (Before the POS combat system change that killed it), and I really enjoyed it, and the graphics. If they could make a game that looked like SWG, with all of UO's current features/content/classes/etc. I would be on board 100%... providing it was at least as bug free as the 2D client currently is.

 

[kelmo]

UO is what it is. Mythic should focus on that and make UO the best, most submersive and open ended game it can be. Graphic improvements as able, sure... babies and bathwater springs to mind. *nods*

 

[Reddeath]

I don't think that engine would run as smooth as you think.

Consider all the itemization, customizable housing, and tweaks just for harvesting resources that would be needed to adapt to what UO currently contains.

Now imagine the load times as every unique item and configuration possible is loaded all at once as you run through just Luna.

I never said that EA *had* to use what WoW uses. I was just giving that as an example as to what you'd see visually. Technically, I know there's engines out there that could handle what UO puts out. Hell, look at the Gamebryo engine that Bethesda used for Oblivion and now Fallout. WAR uses the exact same engine and I get no problems playing and that game is able to handle 50v50 battles without a framerate drop (I've been in a couple of keep sieges that were like that) . Oblivion is a perfect example. Look at all the things that each house has in it and how well it keeps track of everything stat wise, they even have a physics engine implemented in and that game runs fine for me (It also looks extremely pretty to boot). I'm pretty sure that EA could find/come up with an engine that would be able to handle everything UO puts out and still look sensibly good. Take note that I don't have a monster of a computer either.

 

[Reddeath]

I can get behind a 3D version of UO, but if they'd do it, but they would have to do it right. None of this half-assed crap that is KR.

I used to play SWG (Before the POS combat system change that killed it), and I really enjoyed it, and the graphics. If they could make a game that looked like SWG, with all of UO's current features/content/classes/etc. I would be on board 100%... providing it was at least as bug free as the 2D client currently is.

Oh well of course, I'm talking about EA taking their time and really giving UO a high quality upgrade. No reason to bring yet another upgrade out and it be just as half-assed as the others.

 

[Beefybone]

Rebuilding a 2D tile-based game into a truly 3D game would be a far larger developmental nightmare than just developing a whole new 3D game from scratch. It would never happen in a billion years.

 

[Angus MacGregor]

As much as I love this game, I don't think any amount of graphics fixes is going to bring in new players. The game needs a complete overhaul to replace all of the old, clunky code that has been patched together for 11 years.

What we really need is a new game. UO needs to be brought out of the dark ages of MMOs and be born anew as a completely different game. Put everything that works from UO into it, take out everything that doesn't work, and take it even further. Spend the development time to make it great, then advertise the crap out of it when it gets close to release. Give every UO player perks to move to the new game, like the old EQ players got for going to EQII, even if it's just a nifty character title that shows the rest of the players that you're "old school".

The Ultima franchise doesn't deserve to die a slow death with UO. It deserves a second chance to do something huge. People love it for a reason.

 

[Dicimiie]

As much as I love this game, I don't think any amount of graphics fixes is going to bring in new players. The game needs a complete overhaul to replace all of the old, clunky code that has been patched together for 11 years.

What we really need is a new game. UO needs to be brought out of the dark ages of MMOs and be born anew as a completely different game. Put everything that works from UO into it, take out everything that doesn't work, and take it even further. Spend the development time to make it great, then advertise the crap out of it when it gets close to release. Give every UO player perks to move to the new game, like the old EQ players got for going to EQII, even if it's just a nifty character title that shows the rest of the players that you're "old school".

The Ultima franchise doesn't deserve to die a slow death with UO. It deserves a second chance to do something huge. People love it for a reason.

I'm in complete agreement here. While new graphics wouldn't be a step in the wrong direction, I'm not sure it would be in the right direction either. The game really needs better graphics, along with keeping the same skill based system, overhauling the crafting system, keep the open-ended playability, dumb down the items, utilize a housing system akin to Horizons. These would be beneficial things that would help UO keep up with the Jones'.

 

[Reddeath]

Rebuilding a 2D tile-based game into a truly 3D game would be a far larger developmental nightmare than just developing a whole new 3D game from scratch. It would never happen in a billion years.

How so ? Blizzard made WoW based off of WCIII and it took them about 4 years tops to make the entire game from scratch, using just the framework of the geography and anything they could base off of WCIII. I'd think it'd be must easier to translate the exact same world from 2d to 3d than to make an entirely different world.

 

[Reddeath]

As much as I love this game, I don't think any amount of graphics fixes is going to bring in new players. The game needs a complete overhaul to replace all of the old, clunky code that has been patched together for 11 years.

What we really need is a new game. UO needs to be brought out of the dark ages of MMOs and be born anew as a completely different game. Put everything that works from UO into it, take out everything that doesn't work, and take it even further. Spend the development time to make it great, then advertise the crap out of it when it gets close to release. Give every UO player perks to move to the new game, like the old EQ players got for going to EQII, even if it's just a nifty character title that shows the rest of the players that you're "old school".

The Ultima franchise doesn't deserve to die a slow death with UO. It deserves a second chance to do something huge. People love it for a reason.

This is pretty much what I meant, except that it's not an entirely new game, so players can still keep what they've earned. I mean to upgrade the graphics, polish gameplay and have it run well and be made of quality. What would you think if one day you'd be able to play the exact same UO you have today (Gameplay-wise, with the open skill set), but it looked somewhat of modern 3d MMOs and the servers we're actually populated ? You'd still have your in-depth crafting, your open skill set, your Open World, Faction based PvP, boats to sail on, treasure chests to dig up, Murderers to kill and the ability to be drunk while you do it. With the current state of UO, an upgrade of that nature would help the game out more than it would hurt it.

 

[Angus MacGregor]

This is pretty much what I meant, except that it's not an entirely new game, so players can still keep what they've earned. I mean to upgrade the graphics, polish gameplay and have it run well and be made of quality. What would you think if one day you'd be able to play the exact same UO you have today (Gameplay-wise, with the open skill set), but it looked somewhat of modern 3d MMOs and the servers we're actually populated ? You'd still have your in-depth crafting, your open skill set, your Open World, Faction based PvP, boats to sail on, treasure chests to dig up, Murderers to kill and the ability to be drunk while you do it. With the current state of UO, an upgrade of that nature would help the game out more than it would hurt it.

Yes, but then you run into one huge problem. You'd have all of this great stuff layered on top of ancient code that even the devs have said is difficult to work with. This is why changing something as minor as boats has never been done. I think it would be better just to start from scratch, and make a new game that the publishers will want to advertise and bring in new players.

 

[Reddeath]

Yes, but then you run into one huge problem. You'd have all of this great stuff layered on top of ancient code that even the devs have said is difficult to work with. This is why changing something as minor as boats has never been done. I think it would be better just to start from scratch, and make a new game that the publishers will want to advertise and bring in new players.

What I'm getting at is that it's an entirely new client and new code, but the game world isn't erased, so when you log in using the new client, you still have your character, all of their items and your house it still in it's place. Everything that's unique to your character is still there.

 

[Ender]

WoW's art style isn't really what I like... Haven't even bothered to look at Warhammer really. Give me something similar to screenshots from Darkfall, or something like The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

 

[Reddeath]

WoW's art style isn't really what I like... Haven't even bothered to look at Warhammer really. Give me something similar to screenshots from Darkfall, or something like The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

Well the style is strictly up to the designers, that's not really dictated on the game engine. What the game engine dictates is what it can do graphically (HDR Lighting, Normal Mapping, etc.) and how well it handles what's happening on screen. Anyways, here are some screenshots from some other high profile games:

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - http://forums.filefront.com/attachm...-spoilers-oblivion-2006-03-24-10-23-36-17.jpg - This engine called "Gamebryo" runs extremely well, it has HDR lighting, uses speedtree and normal mapping. It also has the ability to be extremely detailed. Every house you walk into has everything you'd think a house has. It's something you've just gotta experience. (It also has physics built in)

Darkfall Online - http://www.darkfallonline.com/gallery/albums/visuals/Darkfall_2006_07_06_15_12_14_32.jpg - I'm not sure what engine this game uses, but from looking at the videos it seems to run well while there's a lot on screen. The colors are slightly bland, but that's the developer's choice.

Warhammer Online - http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/screenshots/WAR_ss_080425-14.jpg - This uses a modified version of what Oblivion runs. They took out things such as HDR/Bloom Lighting and normal mapping, but at the sametime this gave them the ability to have humongous PvP battles, upwards to 60v60 or larger, with out any drop in framerate. A pretty good trade off if you ask me.

After comparing those games' visual qualities to UO's, you can see why the game is lacking in it's current state. Gameplay wise, when compared to most MMOs, UO totally wipes the floor with them. There's not grinding or leveling in UO, unlike almost all other MMOs. What could really give UO a boost would be making it a bit more "tangible" through using a new game engine and a new point of view. How would you like to be killing Ancient Wyrms with visual qualities as shown above ? I know I'd love it.

 

[pavel.vesely]

UO needs better new player experience, all other things are irrelevant if new player experience do not get better.

 

[Doomsday Dragon]

I'm a long time MMO player. I started with UO (7 year vet), then moved to SWG, then to WoW and now I'm at WAR (tried almost all MMOs, but only paid to play those).

And that is where you lost me. If you played UO for 7 years and then jumped around in a few modern MMOs without spending 7 years in each of them as you did UO then I think it is safe to say the modern MMOs are not nearly as entertaining. If they are not as entertaining why take something that is great already and destroy it by turning it into something no one will care about in a year or 2.

Neverwinter Knights, Neverwinter Knights 2, Bladur's Gate,

All I can do right now is shake my head in disbelief...

 

[Black Sun]

Rebuilding a 2D tile-based game into a truly 3D game would be a far larger developmental nightmare than just developing a whole new 3D game from scratch. It would never happen in a billion years.

That's just fine by me. As far as I'm concerned UO's not broken when it comes to graphics, so there's really not anything to fix.

 

[Ender]

Yeah, I say Oblivion > Darkfall > Warhammer > WoW, graphics-wise. Not sure how Oblivion would run as an MMO though. At it's graphic levels, it's pretty demanding, just as a single-player game on semi-recent cards. Run at medium settings with a GeForce 8400, which is fairly cheap, but if some people can't even play KR on their current set-ups...

 

[Reddeath]

And that is where you lost me. If you played UO for 7 years and then jumped around in a few modern MMOs without spending 7 years in each of them as you did UO then I think it is safe to say the modern MMOs are not nearly as entertaining. If they are not as entertaining why take something that is great already and destroy it by turning it into something no one will care about in a year or 2.



All I can do right now is shake my head in disbelief...

Ah, see, like I said above, UO's gameplay destroy's all other games. Just I didn't stick with the other MMOs like I did for UO, doesn't make them bad games . . . just, games that went in the wrong direction. Hell, look at WoW. That game is nothing but a giant grind, but for some odd reason, it has 10 million subscribers. They must be doing something right. I never said change the gameplay, just the visuals of the game. The 2.5D Isometric view is so UO that it's starting to become a hindrance more than something that adds to the nostalgia. The only way I could see UO ever returning to it's original glory, without having to do a "UO 2" is by upgrading the engine to a third person view. This adds to the visual quality of the game, which appeals to a high amount of MMO players. Look at Age of Conan, that game was utter crap in the gameplay department, but because it had shiney visuals, it raked in 1 million players. Think of what UO would get if they had improved visuals ? It already has the great gameplay.

 

[Reddeath]

Yeah, I say Oblivion > Darkfall > Warhammer > WoW, graphics-wise. Not sure how Oblivion would run as an MMO though. At it's graphic levels, it's pretty demanding, just as a single-player game on semi-recent cards. Run at medium settings with a GeForce 8400, which is fairly cheap, but if some people can't even play KR on their current set-ups...

Well, you've gotta remember that's it's extremely easy to scale. Oblivion might not run as efficient as WAR, but it beats it in the visual department, where as WAR totally dominates it in the amount of things it can show on screen and how efficient it stays while doing that. Plus, it might not be people's computers that aren't able to run KR. Look at Diablo II, that game should be able to run extremely well on all modern machines, but because of the in-efficiency of the graphics engine even quad core machines that have utilize two graphics cards, still runs extremely laggy with all of the mobs on screen. The only 2.5D isometric game that I've seen run well with lots of things happening on screen was Starcraft and even that game didn't run as well as most would like.

 

[Fink]

I don't think that engine would run as smooth as you think.

Consider all the itemization, customizable housing, and tweaks just for harvesting resources that would be needed to adapt to what UO currently contains.

Now imagine the load times as every unique item and configuration possible is loaded all at once as you run through just Luna.

That and UO is somewhat unique in being able to place things on the ground, either trash or decoration, so there's another layer of complexity beyond what WoW is intended to do.

 

[galefan2004]

I feel that it would be a step in the right directon. However, many of the systems need reworked. The client itself needs to be rewritten from the ground up. There are to many legacy bugs, many of the systems are hardly fair (skill gaining with swordsmanship versus animal taming for example), the learning curve is to short, its to difficult to successfully reach end game, and other releated problems.

The biggest problem is the player base. Those that already made it refuse to support any efforts to make it easier for others to make it. The problem with that is the veteran's eventually do get bored and they leave and the fresh blood that has seen the difference in progression between all other games (easy progression) and UO normally bail because they don't want to put the "work" (funny they thought they were playing a game after all) to finish out their character.

 

[Reddeath]

That and UO is somewhat unique in being able to place things on the ground, either trash or decoration, so there's another layer of complexity beyond what WoW is intended to do.

I'm pretty sure, if they were to go with the engine that WoW uses, that they'd be able to code that in. I'm not sure how well it'd run, but then again I'd rather they not use WoW's game engine. Oblivion's engine seems to handle putting items on the ground, quite easily.

 

[galefan2004]

That game shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for you opinion. Then you state obvious factors that detract from UO. I'm confused.

They're giving each character their own story line

Hmm...wasn't this UO's biggest selling point since day one? Isn't it still one of UO's biggest selling points?

the system they're using for PvE is going to make it into a Online Single Player game,

You mean you can solo stuff and not have to get an entire raid together for it? It comes down to your personal game play instead of having to argue, fight, and come to detest 24 other block heads in the course of your end game? Isn't that why a lot of us still look at UO?

plus, there's a lot of people pissed off about how they're making it look graphically (I must say, it doesn't look any bit like the original KOTOR).

A lot of people are pissed about how WoW looks graphically. They are so pissed off that they still log into play every day anyways. Stop thinking graphics completely make the game. They just help.

 

[Reddeath]

I feel that it would be a step in the right directon. However, many of the systems need reworked. The client itself needs to be rewritten from the ground up. There are to many legacy bugs, many of the systems are hardly fair (skill gaining with swordsmanship versus animal taming for example), the learning curve is to short, its to difficult to successfully reach end game, and other releated problems.

The biggest problem is the player base. Those that already made it refuse to support any efforts to make it easier for others to make it. The problem with that is the veteran's eventually do get bored and they leave and the fresh blood that has seen the difference in progression between all other games (easy progression) and UO normally bail because they don't want to put the "work" (funny they thought they were playing a game after all) to finish out their character.

I almost agree 100% with you. I don't think the game mechanics should be reworked to be easier, but more accessible. Ultima Online in general, to stay afloat, needs to be modernized with a new graphics engine and gameplay tweaks so that it draws in a larger crowd.

 

[Reddeath]

Hmm...wasn't this UO's biggest selling point since day one? Isn't it still one of UO's biggest selling points?

No, UO's biggest selling point was that it was the first graphical massive online game that had a very detailed persistant world. There is no set "Story line" that your character follows. That's why people still praise UO's open-endedness even today. There isn't even a slight linear path your character has to follow, at all.

You mean you can solo stuff and not have to get an entire raid together for it? It comes down to your personal game play instead of having to argue, fight, and come to detest 24 other block heads in the course of your end game? Isn't that why a lot of us still look at UO?

Oh wow, I thought you'd want to play with actual people when logged into a Massively *Multiplayer* Online game. If you want to run around with an NPC minion to help you out, then there's tons of singleplayer games that do this. And I've yet to see UO's "endgame" absolutely depend on you having 24 other people to play with.

A lot of people are pissed about how WoW looks graphically. They are so pissed off that they still log into play every day anyways. Stop thinking graphics completely make the game. They just help.

I never said graphics completely make the game, if you read my other posts in this thread, you'd see that I have mentioned UO's gameplay, more than once. They definitely don't make the game, but they are an integral part of it's success. Like I sited before, Age of Conan is proof of this. If that game, with it's crappy gameplay, can garner 1 million subscribers just because of one of the advantages of it, is that it has high end graphics, then think what UO could do with improved graphics along with killer gameplay ? And I'm willing to bet money that there's more people that are content with WoW's graphics more than there isn't. Hell, people are loving the graphical upgrades that are coming with Wrath of the Lich King, so don't bull**** me and imply that there's more people that disagree with the graphics than there are those that do agree with them. Nexus responded that he's more worried about Bioware's new MMO being UO's deathknell more so than any of the other current contenders. I stated that I don't think it'd be a problem and then I listed the reasons why. Bioware is amazing at making singleplayer RPGs, but with this being their first real entry into the online genre of games, and from what they described, it literally sounded like an online single player game, I don't think the current MMOs have anything to worry about. I'm not saying it's going to be a flop, but I'm not saying it's going to do extremely well either. If UO can survive WoW's entry into the market, I'm sure it can survive any of the other MMOs coming out.

 

[galefan2004]

No, UO's biggest selling point was that it was the first graphical massive online game that had a very detailed persistant world. There is no set "Story line" that your character follows. That's why people still praise UO's open-endedness even today. There isn't even a slight linear path your character has to follow, at all.

You pick the path then you follow it. Its absolutely no different then any other leveling based game accept you get to pick 7 skill sets that you have to level mostly independantly in some cases as compared to picking 3 skill sets that all level together. Skill based games are no different than leveling games accept they take longer to reach end game. Its still using a skill to accomplish something at end game in both scenarios. You just have a little more flexibility with skill based games than with leveling ones. Plus, the way you made it sound was that you would be able to solo through entire game then end game would be solo also. Thats what UO sold on for years. It stopped selling on being the first game when it stopped being the only game and EQ topped UO's two year profits when it opened.

Oh wow, I thought you'd want to play with actual people when logged into a Massively *Multiplayer* Online game. If you want to run around with an NPC minion to help you out, then there's tons of singleplayer games that do this. And I've yet to see UO's "endgame" absolutely depend on you having 24 other people to play with.

I never said it did. That was a reference to WoW's end game. Its also a reference to why 99% of UO player's I've talked to say they won't play WoW. No, I really don't desire to be forced to group with people to do something meaningful. What you don't understand is that you don't have to strip the freedom of a solo player prospective from a MMORPG to make it MMO. Thats why you come together to trade, to socialize, and to chose to adventure together. When the game forces you to, instead of allows you to decide to, make "friends" with other players just to progress in the game then there is a problem. Console games are popular because you play the game without taking on the aggrovation that is other people at a time you really don't feel like doing so. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to adventure with others, I'm saying you shouldn't have to.

I never said graphics completely make the game, if you read my other posts in this thread, you'd see that I have mentioned UO's gameplay, more than once. They definitely don't make the game, but they are an integral part of it's success.

No they really aren't. To say that would be like saying that UO was never a success, Nintendo, Sega, Super Nintendo, PS, and other outdated consoles were never a success. Hell pong was never a success either then. Thats crap. People were happy hitting a single pixle with two lines for years. That game was wildly popular. You can still play it today. That was a huge success, and the graphics had NOTHING to do with it. Graphics are simply a bonus that helps the game. They aren't integral what-so-ever. They aren't even needed to help the game unless the game has very little to offer.

Like I sited before, Age of Conan is proof of this. If that game, with it's crappy gameplay, can garner 1 million subscribers just because of one of the advantages of it, is that it has high end graphics, then think what UO could do with improved graphics along with killer gameplay ?

I take it that you personally don't like AOC. That doesn't mean you can speak for all 1 million people. AOC was based on Conan Lore. I'm willing to bet there are at least 1 million Conan fanatics world wide that would subscribe to the game for no other reason. You are stating your opinion as fact and thats a problem.

And I'm willing to bet money that there's more people that are content with WoW's graphics more than there isn't. Hell, people are loving the graphical upgrades that are coming with Wrath of the Lich King, so don't bull**** me and imply that there's more people that disagree with the graphics than there are those that do agree with them.

Go read any site that gives player feedback on WoW. The number one complaint is the graphics. Number two is the player base itself. WoW's graphics engine simply sucks. It lags everytime you get near an area that actually requires it to do work, most of the stuff looks cartoonish as all hell, and even the players aren't exactly happy with the graphics 100% (read any paladin's opinions on the graphics for their gear for example). I never said they were unplayable. I said that people don't play WoW for the graphics they play them inspite of the graphics and your agruement was that no one would play Deathknell simply because of the graphics. You are wrong.

and from what they described, it literally sounded like an online single player game, I don't think the current MMOs have anything to worry about. I'm not saying it's going to be a flop, but I'm not saying it's going to do extremely well either. If UO can survive WoW's entry into the market, I'm sure it can survive any of the other MMOs coming out.

What you fail to see is that UO and WoW are complete opposites. UO is a solo player game for the most part (rather you want to admit to that or not the majority of the PvM players play solo more than they play in teams) while WoW is a 5/10/25 player game with forced grouping at all times to do anything worth doing. UO doesn't have to fear WoW because UO is the opposite of WoW. Now, a game that comes along and offers UOs solo based game play components with better graphics and more interaction an an actual social level instead of a forced grouping level might simply destroy UO.

 

[Nexus]

That game shouldn't be a problem. They're giving each character their own story line for the most part and from what I've read/seen, the system they're using for PvE is going to make it into a Online Single Player game, plus, there's a lot of people pissed off about how they're making it look graphically (I must say, it doesn't look any bit like the original KOTOR).


Anyways, what do you all think about what I originally posted ?

It has to do with what you originally posted... You remember how Warhammer Online snatched parts of UO's development staff, and Customer support. EA bought out Bioware, who's to say that if they hit yet another Popular MMO UO can dodge the bullet again. I'm throwing up what's being said about a game in development that could threaten UO because it's internal competition in the making.

UO really needs to raise their standard, cookie cutter invasions aren't going to cut it. I'm not saying UO should follow suit with all the other MMO's either they need to find something UO can do being a Sandbox game that they can't.

 

[Reddeath]

UO really needs to raise their standard, cookie cutter invasions aren't going to cut it. I'm not saying UO should follow suit with all the other MMO's either they need to find something UO can do being a Sandbox game that they can't.

This has to go along with what I originally said. UO's gameplay is great, they just need some high quality fixes. I can almost 100% assure you that if EA/Mythic gave UO a new, third person viewed Game Engine, polished/tweaked the game mechanics that needed it and gave UO a really killer advertising campaign leading up to it's release, that UO would see a large boost in subscriptions. I can just about 100% guarantee this.

 

[Basara]

Yeah, I say Oblivion > Darkfall > Warhammer > WoW, graphics-wise. Not sure how Oblivion would run as an MMO though. At it's graphic levels, it's pretty demanding, just as a single-player game on semi-recent cards. Run at medium settings with a GeForce 8400, which is fairly cheap, but if some people can't even play KR on their current set-ups...

You all seem to forget....

Oblivion used the Gamebryo engine.

WAR uses the Gamebryo engine.

KINGDOM REBORN & STYGIAN ABYSS CLIENTS ARE ALSO THE GAMEBRYO ENGINE!!!!!

The problems with KR was that it was rushed, and is having to conform to a server system not made for that engine originally. The first issue is being fixed in the SA client. Ironically, the KR bashers are getting most of the graphics default to the 2D graphics in SA (which I have mixed feelings about - some things look better in 2D, some things look better in KR, and it cuts across all sections, not just statics or mobiles or objects as whole groups).

Hopefully the extra time (and the fact that the WAR & SA teams will be able to help each other, and in some cases write systems for both games at the same time) will result in a Stygian Abyss client that will be stable, fast and attractive.

Personally, I've never understood why anyone would want to play a FP viewpoint in a non-VR game.

In many ways, the overhead view compensates for these facts of FP-view gaming:

1. You can't hear someone coming up behind (or above/below) you in a FP game, in the same manner as in a real 3D environment. You're having to deal with a 2-speaker environment typically being programmed for the game, and even with full surround sound, it's not as effective as your real sense of hearing.
2. Similarly, an overhead view allows deaf players (and I've known 2 or 3 on even a small shard like Lake Austin) to compete and enjoy the game, as the cues that would be audible-only, concerning threats from behind, in a FP game (And therefore lost to them) are visible threats in the overhead view.
3. You can't see movement in your perepherial vision (even widescreen monitors only simulate about 20-50% of your eyes' range of view).
4. For that matter, ever hear someone comment, after looking for something in real life, "if it had been a snake, I'd have been dead" (or, "it would have bit me")? In an overhead view, things on the ground are much more apparent than in FP games - so much so that FP games often have the manipulatible items in the environment GLOW to make them easier to spot (and sometimes even that doesn't help). Nothing is more frustrating than to spend a half-hour looking for something in a game, only to find out it was UNDER you the entire time - which is MUCH less likely to occur in an overhead view.
5. Then, there is the headaches and motion sickness/nausea a substantial percentage of the population can have from a FP view.

 

[Ender]

Doesn't need to be all first-person. Oblivion has the choice to go third-person and zoom out pretty far, or go first-person. I'm sure you can also rotate the camera to be overhead too.

 

[RoycroftLS]

What you don't understand is that you don't have to strip the freedom of a solo player prospective from a MMORPG to make it MMO. Thats why you come together to trade, to socialize, and to chose to adventure together. When the game forces you to, instead of allows you to decide to, make "friends" with other players just to progress in the game then there is a problem. ... I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to adventure with others, I'm saying you shouldn't have to.

Most interactions still taking place in UO nowadays are taking place in spite of the game's features, not because of them. You can trade items on vendors without seeing another person, almost every monster is soloable, and socializing takes place in vent/teamspeak for many guilds.

People need to come to the realization that yes this IS a multiplayer game. It says right on the box I bought years ago: "It cannot be played alone on your computer like other games, but then those games don't deliver you to a place where thousands of people can gather." There should be some content that enables people to enjoy the multiplayer product they purchased.

The solo playstyle should be viable and have some content devoted to it, yes, but a single player shouldn't be able to access everything and anything by themselves. Having some game content in UO that requires more than one person to complete isn't something that is being forced on the game population.

That is, not any more than meat is forced on vegetarians who go to Outback Steakhouse. There are plenty of other options on the menu, and if they are so appalled at the selection then maybe they should have chosen a more appropriate establishment for their liking. Demanding that the manager change the menu to only their tastes is selfish and goes against everything that made the business successful in the first place.

I say that because making things soloable is a self-perpetuating cycle. No, it's not fun when there aren't people around to do things. But asking to make things soloable will make it even less likely that you will see people around. And that's not a good thing when the key drawing point for an online game is the ability to interact with other people.

 

[Reddeath]

KINGDOM REBORN & STYGIAN ABYSS CLIENTS ARE ALSO THE GAMEBRYO ENGINE!!!!!

Kingdom Reborn doesn't use the Gamebryo engine.

 

[Reddeath]

I give up. It seems no matter how hard I try, no one seems to understand that UO won't be around for much longer and no one seems to want to do anything about it. The current posters can deny it all they want and say that graphics don't make the game, but if they didn't then we'd all still be using integrated graphics cards and still play 8/16 bit games. UO needs some drastic changes to stay afloat and it seems everyone on these forums is an anchor. It's odd that I quit reading the WoW and WAR forums for the same reason. I give up. If ya'll want UO to fall, then be my guest.

 

[kelmo]

I give up. It seems no matter how hard I try, no one seems to understand that UO won't be around for much longer and no one seems to want to do anything about it. The current posters can deny it all they want and say that graphics don't make the game, but if they didn't then we'd all still be using integrated graphics cards and still play 8/16 bit games. UO needs some drastic changes to stay afloat and it seems everyone on these forums is an anchor. It's odd that I quit reading the WoW and WAR forums for the same reason. I give up. If ya'll want UO to fall, then be my guest.

*smiles* If you want bettor graphics... there are other games. UO is what it is. No amount of kicking and screaming will drag it into the vision you want. Only thing that would do that is a from scratch restart.

All I ask is UO be the best it can be.

 

[Beefybone]

How so ? Blizzard made WoW based off of WCIII and it took them about 4 years tops to make the entire game from scratch, using just the framework of the geography and anything they could base off of WCIII. I'd think it'd be must easier to translate the exact same world from 2d to 3d than to make an entirely different world.

WoW is based on WC3 in terms of story and art direction, but it's a self-contained game and not an overhaul of anything. Revamping UO into a true 3D game would require not only all the development required to create a true 3D game from scratch, but also additional work to accomodate a database and game structure never meant to function in 3D.

For one random example, here's a question. In your hypothetical 3D UO, we can bring the camera down to our shoulder and look clear out to the horizon. How far can we fire a bow? The range we can fire a bow currently would look laughably short in 3D, but making them longer would require sweeping balance changes to the entire game.

 

[kelmo]

WoW is based on WC3 in terms of story and art direction, but it's a self-contained game and not an overhaul of anything. Revamping UO into a true 3D game would require not only all the development required to create a true 3D game from scratch, but also additional work to accomodate a database and game structure never meant to function in 3D.

For one random example, here's a question. In your hypothetical 3D UO, we can bring the camera down to our shoulder and look clear out to the horizon. How far can we fire a bow? The range we can fire a bow currently would look laughably short in 3D, but making them longer would require sweeping balance changes to the entire game.

I will be damned Cupcake. We agree.

 

[BadManiac]

tl;dr Version: Do you think if EA updated the graphics to something along the lines of what WoW or Warhammer uses and polished the game mechanics, that it would breath new life into UO ?

I'm sure it would bring in more players, in fact I can guarantee it would. But it would also render UO a soulless copy of all other current MMO's on the market and make most current players leave in utter disgust.

UO doesn't need new graphics, it needs more dynamic content, it needs a working crafting system, it needs balancing, it needs everything but graphics.
If UO was fixed, and was made whole again, balanced for both PvM and PvP, loot, new player content, actual content for characters below 6x legendary with all arty gear, then if someone told me they refused to play UO because of it's graphics, I'd just laugh at them.

Currently tho, I don't care if they make UO with Cryengine 2, it's still totally broke and unbalanced, and totally void of content for 0-119 skill levels.

 

[Cacio]

I wrote this 2 years ago like the original poster.
UO needs a 3D client.I play naechst to uo another online game but its
olso singel player mode eve online.Skille based.
So why shoud i cancel uo just to start with Warhammer?
For Ea its the same money to cancel uo and start with war.
I know level game based games have played 5 years Eq.1 too.
I dont think its a big problme for the devs to make uo into a 3 D grafics like warhamer.Both teams work close together they only need to take warhamer graics and to put them into uo.I never player war.Its just if i talk smaltalk into eve teamspeak and talk about uo,they never heared of it.If i say its the first online game and runs over 11 years they cant belive it.They are 20 not my old age as veteran player of many mmorpgs online and what they know is the word WOW.Most part of wow is the marketing machine not the grafics.
But you can stay at 2D uo client and make a real 3D client for uo so player can shoose between both like i mentioned 2 years ago.

 

[Basara]

KINGDOM REBORN & STYGIAN ABYSS CLIENTS ARE ALSO THE GAMEBRYO ENGINE!!!!!

Kingdom Reborn doesn't use the Gamebryo engine.

REALLY???

That's News to EA Mythic, then......

From
Five On Friday #53 March 23, 2007 (on my 40th birthday, no less)

"Is Kingdom Reborn an in-house engine? What is the engine's name?"
An interesting bit of trivia - the engine we are using for KR is Gamebryo.

Note that the link to Gamebryo is from the FOF itself - I didn't add it. (and yes, it's broken due to chnges on emergent's end). Devs have repeatedly said here that the KR client uses Gamebryo - try actually searching the forums - and discussed that since KR uses the same engine (with different modifications) as the other Mythic games, ideas will tend to cross-pollenate (and that it would be possible to fans adapt elements of player-created skins, etc. from one game to another) and they will find it easier to "borrow" people from one game to work on the crunch time of another.

 

[Maplestone]

The sheer quantity of art in UO boggles my imagination. The thing that made me most surprised that KR was even attempted was the sheer volume of new art that would be required (especially given how rightfully fussy we are about keeping everything intact).

Redoing it all again ... *shudder*

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I wasn't all that impressed with UX:O's artwork... the creatures looked too Disneyfied to me... not quite my cup of tea.

And PLEASE DO NOT copy WoW's artstyle.

If UO were to go full 3d, then I would want the artwork to be the UO style artwork... more mature looking and less "cartoony".

Ultima and Polygon-based 3d have not exactly been on the best of terms (two cancelled MMOG-based titles and an embarrasment of a final chpater to the Prime series).

I think Ultima does fine in the current isometric viewpoint... more technical marvels are always appreciated though, but I think I'd rather see them add in environmental effects and NPC scripting that actually has them "living" than go to a full-on 3d client with WOW-like graphics (BTW... KR environmental graphics are MUCH better than WoWs. Why would I want to give up the varied and more natural looking KR terrain in favor of the endlessly repeating tile-quilt of WoW?)

Basically, they need to get the KR client done and release it as the SA client... THEN we'll go from there.

 

[DarkChronus]

Devs have repeatedly said here that the KR client uses Gamebryo -

Right... I was surprised no one said anything about KR using gamebryo until you said it. The engine doesn't make the art assets though, thats entirely up to the development teams. I'd absolutely love to see a fully 3D online Ultima game, but as some have mentioned, that ship has sailed twice and sank like the Titanic.