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Mesanna

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Eärendil

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Thats exactly how I feel and thats exactly what I preach all the time. However, my friend, manners, maturity, modesty, temperance and humility are not given to all people (not even to me, and I am a really wonderful being!) Some are on their journey to a balanced and peaceful mind for their whole life, some get mature fast - others will never grow up. You have to constantly urge them to follow the virtues... It´s Ultima, don´t forget that!
 

petemage

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It's amazing how far people go over defending Mesanna.

Small heads up: The topic of this thread is Mesanna und people have just mentioned legitimate criticism. No need to get personal and call people crybabies. Act mature yourself please.

If you can't handle some fairly tame criticism you are probably better seated at the meet and greets ;)

Also UO is not Mesanna. You can like playing UO and still dislike her. That's the good thing of being realistic, you don't pretend there is only the good. You know there is the good, the bad and the ugly. But you at least are honest about it.
 
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Eärendil

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@petemage: It´s not about defending Mesanna. It´s the question if people in an age of 17+ can finally arrange with reality and stop whining. This board is filled with whining. Just read. It´s a game. Get over it.

I like your attitude. It´s fair and balanced. But OP was not about being sarcastic towards the Devs, it was not about complaining about how bad the world is... Why is everybody so negative? Cheer up a bit. Enjoy life! Stop crying. That´s all...

If you feel insulted by the word "crybaby" go to the next mirror and speak out loudly what people like TimberWolf (no offense) are writing here. Follow your mimic and you will see... Words and faces... Effects. You WILL definitely look like a crybaby.

Ah, last point: People complaining on this board constantly about almost everything should be able to live with some spanking on their crybaby-butts, that helps calming down...

Just live with some irony, mate... ;-) Remember shool-yard? Who got spanked? Know-it-alls, know-it-betters and crybabies... Take some criticism and irony, ok?

And when you are doubting my itentions, just look at my signature or my avatar and you will always know my state of mind. It´s so easier just to have fun, Folks! HAVE FUN!
 
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petemage

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Idk, I personally feel the people who get butthurt over some criticism are crying way more. Nobody was crying. We are just discussing whether the current UO producer is doing a good job or not.

Is there anything you want to bring to the discussion on topic? Nobody forces you to read the criticism if you don't like it.
 

Eärendil

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@Pete: just read the OP and you see why I got involved. Somebody asked a simple question and the "Horde of the Discontent" occupied it. THAT was my reason. OP had - according to my understanding - no intentions to invite them expose their misery. They occupied this thread and when I read it I decided to shoot a little confetti out of the confetti-cannon. Did my job and quit this thread now (you can be reliefed).

There are so many threads occupied by people just whishing to express their misery. Almost all threads turn negative at some point as far as I can see... Just my 5 cents and they are as valuable as all the others, my friend. That´s what I brought to that discussion... And nobody forces you to read / comment my utterings.

So, last Statement from me here:

 

Hannes Erich

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@petemage, it's not legitimate criticism when it's off-topic.

@Eaerendil wins the thread IMO. Although to be fair to the scope of the problem, I've never been 100% convinced that a "one client fits all" was both technologically and financially feasible (even when there may have been resources to merit this whole thread derail; many years ago folks). In the EC for instance, the player doesn't seem to be able to feel the Y axis nearly as clearly as in the CC. Then, in the CC, the play window size is very restricted on modern native resolutions, despite lots of requests over the years to at least bring it up to 1024x768. Both of these issues may depend on portions of server code as well as client code in order to be resolved.

These problems and others have persisted across multiple teams, so they aren't signs that Broadsword is burned out, they're signs that portions of the client/server code base might be poorly documented, poorly coded, or both. When code is both poorly documented and it depends on hacks (the duct tape of computer code), it CAN be impossible to fix it without screwing up an unknowable number of dependencies elsewhere in the source code. The examples above would have been the work of Origin Systems, and in designing UO, they were doing something that had never been done before. There was no rule book.

What all of this boils down to is that a better client, capable of pleasing us all with a set of modern or classic options (that could still be made to FEEL like the CC does to CC users) might indeed require not just a client rewrite, but a server rewrite. At that point, you may as well just make a sequel, because none of us would be able to keep our characters, or transfer them to new servers if the old ones were kept online.

Again, we're back to the real reason player-run shards sometimes seem to get there faster. It's not entirely honest to say they do it better; and it can be totally irrelevant to say they "got there first," and I'll explain why.

First of all, player-run shard developers aren't beholden to anything but their own pet projects, especially the script-writers (those who work outside of core emulation and develop weird add-ons like transparent water or basements). They have the benefit of working with tools and streamlined code standards that didn't exist when the original shards were brought online, but they don't have to answer to a single boss or customer, and they don't have to submit anything to quality control. (Neither transparent water nor basements have actually been 100% implemented on any shard, ever.)

Most player-run shards aren't optimized for large player bases. The few that serve large playerbases require a lot of problem solving. So, bugs often persist longer than on the official shards because a lot of shard owners don't actually know how to code. Even good volunteer coders do what they want, when they want. Even core developers often only hammer out the bits of previous official expansions that they happen to care about, then get bored of it and essentially "don't come into work" for several months straight (or ever). Is this how you want Broadsword to function? No? Then shut up, frankly.

Which is why every shard that promises new expansion content is mostly lying; not a single player-run shard can give you anything in the neighborhood of 100% of any expansion beyond AOS. Anyone can look at the source code if they doubt that.

Second of all, player-run shards periodically run into the same problem UO does when facing significant source code upgrades. They can either stay within the code base "time frame" they launched in, which includes all of its general restrictions, or they can upgrade, which effectively means a world restart and character wipe. No one seems to mention that while defending player-run shards as compared to Mesanna or Broadsword and the official shards. But this is often the cost of "getting there first" regarding feature development. There's a reason why there's not a single player-run shard as old as the official shards, despite the fact that the first emulator was actually released to the public before UO had even left beta testing. A lot of people around here are just padding their post counts with opinions that bear little or no relevance in the real world.

TL;DR
If you have zero education about what separates the challenges of the official code base from the convenience of writing new source with 20/20 hindsight, then you may as well flush your self-righteous opinions about Broadsword's development standards down the toilet.
 

OREOGL

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@Pete: just read the OP and you see why I got involved. Somebody asked a simple question and the "Horde of the Discontent" occupied it. THAT was my reason. OP had - according to my understanding - no intentions to invite them expose their misery. They occupied this thread and when I read it I decided to shoot a little confetti out of the confetti-cannon. Did my job and quit this thread now (you can be reliefed).

There are so many threads occupied by people just whishing to express their misery. Almost all threads turn negative at some point as far as I can see... Just my 5 cents and they are as valuable as all the others, my friend. That´s what I brought to that discussion... And nobody forces you to read / comment my utterings.

So, last Statement from me here:

Oh to see the world through rose colored glasses...

The game did not evolve by sticking our heads in the sand.
 

Legendary Rick

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Honestly all the bad things people say about the CC client, the fact is probably 75% of all the players in UO still use CC client, and will probably always use it, think the enhanced client is ugly as hell (me included) and has some real horrible flaws. Don't get me wrong the enhanced client does have some cool features but UO is UO because of the original client and probably still alive because of it tbh. Also, i would like to tell a quick story, everyone has these great things to say about Mesanna and what she does, although i admit she does a lot of important stuff but she has her flaws too. About 1 year and 6 months back i bought an expansion "Staygian Abyss" from the UO store, i paid $50 cnd, got a code that didn't work at all, my brother send multiple emails to Mesanna for some help (no answer for over a week), so i said ill bite the bullet and bought another code (also didn't work!!). Then i started to get pissed off cause im basically giving them free money, eventually she replied 1 email to my brother few weeks later which in no way helped the situation, and by then we had to find some number to call were someone assisted us with 1 code that works. But i have never gotten my other $50 back or received a 2nd code, or gotten anything for it (basically free donation). I understand Mesanna is a pretty busy person, and i respect alot of things she does, but im sure she has her favorites in this game, people she will reply to within 24 hrs or same day, and i think thats wrong. I pay for 8 accounts every month and i think everyone who invests money into the UO community should be treated equally. So now i buy all my codes privately and i respect all brokers in this game a lot and what they do for this game! This game wouldn't exist without developers and i think for what the community of UO is now they are doing as much as needed to be done to keep this game going for all of us who enjoy it and will always! Hats off to you!
 

Uvtha

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Thats exactly how I feel and thats exactly what I preach all the time. However, my friend, manners, maturity, modesty, temperance and humility are not given to all people (not even to me, and I am a really wonderful being!) Some are on their journey to a balanced and peaceful mind for their whole life, some get mature fast - others will never grow up. You have to constantly urge them to follow the virtues... It´s Ultima, don´t forget that!
Don't get me wrong, I can pitch a pancake fit about some stupid aspect of the game or another with the best of them. :p
 

TimberWolf

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Idk, I personally feel the people who get butthurt over some criticism are crying way more. Nobody was crying. We are just discussing whether the current UO producer is doing a good job or not.

Is there anything you want to bring to the discussion on topic? Nobody forces you to read the criticism if you don't like it.


No NO NO......what is wrong with UO is I am so negative. If I could just find away to blow sunshine and butterflies out my butt the game would be sooooooo much better!
I have a stong business back ground....when I fail to meet my customer/clients expectation I expect to hear their disapproval and I attempt to satisfy their expectations going forward.
It doesnt help me to have them stand around and say how wonderful everything is.....when I continually put out crap!
 

Deep Ellum Dan

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I have never understood why gamers put so much emphasys on Graphics.....

Personally, what keeps me playing a game is CONTENT and, to my opinion, I have yet to find a game that has so much stuff to do and complexity of game play as Ultima Online has........

If I need to describe Ultima Online to someone, I do not even know where to start from considering the enormous number of things one can do in it.

I mean, just look at whatever other game out there and sure, they may have great graphics but you can't have a House to customize, or you cannot craft so many things or you can't grow plants or you can't have vendors or you can't etc. etc etc.

Sure, it would be wonderfull to have better Graphics in Ultima Online but I would never ever trade the game content for better Graphics, EVER.

Graphics might be the initial attraction to a game but, to my viewing, it is content which most often, I would imagine, keeps one playing it and, infact, Ultima Online is approaching its 20th Birthday Anniversary...... this should show something about the "power" of its immense content.....

To create a game with the amount of content like Ultima Online currently has, but modern looking graphics, I would imagine would require a very large investment of resources and who knows how many Developers and probably would take years and years of time......

The only one real problem I have always had with Ultima Online is how easy it is to cheat in it with scripts, multiboxing/multiclienting and all that. I think that overall cheating in UO lost many more players to the game then what it kept playing the game, but that's only my personal opinion.....

What would be cool, but I have no idea whether it would be technically even thinkable, would be if the current content of Ultima Online was "convertible", so to speak, into a modern day graphics but without losing anything of the many many things one can do in UO.....

Like, creating new modern graphics and then "convert" all of the game play currently possible to that new, modern Graphics. But I guess, that if it was not done already it means that the technical difficulties are so high that it is not feasible and, clearly, startiong from zero would be a daunting task to imagine for the amound of work that would be necessary as well as of the resources......
Very well said! Has anyone even noticed how many games are still being published that have similar graphics as UO? I personally do not think the graphics are keeping people from joining and think it has more to do with marketing or lack of
 

Corwyn

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Very well said! Has anyone even noticed how many games are still being published that have similar graphics as UO? I personally do not think the graphics are keeping people from joining and think it has more to do with marketing or lack of
Ding! We have a winner!
 

Uvtha

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I have never understood why gamers put so much emphasys on Graphics.....
Style is an important element of substance in "art" a broad category games fall into. Of course style isn't just the latest and flashiest graphics, it's having a good mood or a good feel, and for some games it's a more important element than in others. I can play an ascii roguelike for hours happily, but I can't play UO with the goofy EC graphics, for example.
 

Uvtha

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Very well said! Has anyone even noticed how many games are still being published that have similar graphics as UO? I personally do not think the graphics are keeping people from joining and think it has more to do with marketing or lack of
The sub price has more to do with it than anything else, if you ask me. Plus, just because graphics are old looking or because they are in an old style, that doesn't mean they aren't good. Pixel art for example can be amazing, just as impressive stylistically as anything you'll find anywhere else... if it's well thought out and smartly executed any style can look amazing.
 

Corwyn

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The sub price has more to do with it than anything else, if you ask me. Plus, just because graphics are old looking or because they are in an old style, that doesn't mean they aren't good. Pixel art for example can be amazing, just as impressive stylistically as anything you'll find anywhere else... if it's well thought out and smartly executed any style can look amazing.
The subscription model worked fine for years, because that is all anyone knew really. However, in today's market, the subscription model is actually a hindrance. The Free to Play model (or whatever you want to call it) works so much better in most instances, and I think makes more money over the long run. And I think it has to do with an "I'm paying only for what I want to pay for" idea. People are actually apt to pay more in the long run for things that they directly want. On top of that, with the Free to Play model, you don't feel like you have to log in.

I said it before... I think GW2 had the right overall idea. People go absolutely crazy for the cosmetic upgrades they pay for. I was absolutely amazed at how much people are willing to pay to make their character look slightly better than before. I only spent money on a few "quality of life" items that they had (a mining pick that lasted forever, for example). It was just nice to not have to worry about running out of picks in the middle of node collecting. It was worth it to me, while cosmetic upgrades really weren't. In UO, I could totally see them making a lot of money on house add-ons alone.

As far as graphics go, I've always enjoyed UO's graphics. They are quite simple overall, but they are also complete. There are certain creatures in UO that I still think look fabulous for being sprites.
 

Uvtha

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The subscription model worked fine for years, because that is all anyone knew really. However, in today's market, the subscription model is actually a hindrance. The Free to Play model (or whatever you want to call it) works so much better in most instances, and I think makes more money over the long run. And I think it has to do with an "I'm paying only for what I want to pay for" idea. People are actually apt to pay more in the long run for things that they directly want. On top of that, with the Free to Play model, you don't feel like you have to log in.

I said it before... I think GW2 had the right overall idea. People go absolutely crazy for the cosmetic upgrades they pay for. I was absolutely amazed at how much people are willing to pay to make their character look slightly better than before. I only spent money on a few "quality of life" items that they had (a mining pick that lasted forever, for example). It was just nice to not have to worry about running out of picks in the middle of node collecting. It was worth it to me, while cosmetic upgrades really weren't. In UO, I could totally see them making a lot of money on house add-ons alone.

As far as graphics go, I've always enjoyed UO's graphics. They are quite simple overall, but they are also complete. There are certain creatures in UO that I still think look fabulous for being sprites.
Yeah I feel if you charge for subscription (as your only payment model) you really have to be a very high end game with tons of people working on it to make it look great, and keep the balancing, and more importantly the content flowing.

One time payment with an extensive item shop seems like a good idea to me as well. So does tiered subs and an expanded item shop. I really don't like item shops in full sub games though... I feel like that's just a bit insulting.
 

Corwyn

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Yeah I feel if you charge for subscription (as your only payment model) you really have to be a very high end game with tons of people working on it to make it look great, and keep the balancing, and more importantly the content flowing.

One time payment with an extensive item shop seems like a good idea to me as well. So does tiered subs and an expanded item shop. I really don't like item shops in full sub games though... I feel like that's just a bit insulting.
Agreed. I'd be more than happy to shell out money for pixels if I wasn't already paying monthly for them. UO is rich with items that they could sell in an item shop. Honestly, looking at just the vet rewards alone, if they were so inclined to do so, they could pretty much any item on the list and people would buy them. I'm not saying they shouldn't also be used as vet rewards. But it would be nice to have the option of buying them if I wanted.

So much potential for income. And as long as they have developers that can crank out pixels, they'd be able to introduce even more.

P.S. I want an eye patch for my fisherman. Willing to pay money for it.
 

Capt. Lucky

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This isn't aimed at *anyone* just to be clear. My feelings in general are saying "Mesanna sucks" is really a waste of time. As is saying Mesanna rocks the world. She does a lot of good and has let us down before also. Such is life. She can handle an account problem better than anyone in the history of UO imho. It would be hard to imagine it any other way, we all have positives and negatives. There's always that yin and yang thing. Now what in my opinion is helpful is how we handle the things that annoy us. If I say this particular art sucks because it's "cartoon like", the perspective is off with the rest of the game, it doesn't match the feel of UO, "Hey a five foot tall coffee pot is kinda goofy", I see that as constructive. I identify a particular issue and my problem with it. That is what I *try* to do. Sometimes I see something like.... ummm a bunny painting say....and I freak out, lol. I apologize for that lol. But if we can *try* to keep our criticism is that type of frame work then I think it's perfectly acceptable. But verbally assaulting the dev team has been going on since day one and it certainly isn't a new event. lol It's a job where if you don't have a thick skin and a hole in your tongue from biting it, your in the wrong line of work. Because a comment isn't positive doesn't make it wrong, because it's a positive comment certainly doesn't make it right. But if I or anyone has a complaint it's on us to justify it. That I try and do.
 

JC the Builder

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The Free to Play model (or whatever you want to call it) works so much better in most instances, and I think makes more money over the long run.
The free to play model is terrible for many reasons. For every game which succeeds there are a wasteland of games that don't make it. Look at all the garbage games on smartphones which are based on timers and item shops. As a business free to play sucks because you don't have a predictable revenue stream. Game developers and companies are making less money when they do free to play unless their game is a smashing success.

If you want to look at free to play in MMO then the model is in the east and Korea. It is all about item shops and pay to win. Look what happened with Diablo III, it got so bad Blizzard actually took the high road and closed the item shop.

This is not to say it can't be done right. But free to play is terrible and even video game players are crying out they just want to pay full price for games again. Paying $10 a month for a full game is a bargain compared to free to play games these days.
 

JC the Builder

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So even when done right, it's terrible?
It doesn't have to be. There are many different factors. But even if it is perfect on launch there is always the chance to screw it up.

Look at the whole mess with shard shields. For 14 years we had a nice system of veteran rewards and transfer tokens. Suddenly they get combined and it is a big mess. You tick off players who now feel pay to win and you hurt revenue by making a previously store-only item available in-game.
 

Capt. Lucky

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So even when done right, it's terrible?
Honestly I do feel that way. I was into BSG online for awhile. My guild was awesome and I loved that game. I still do but now all my stuff is second rate. New guns came out for my ships and I'd buy them all over time. Just about the time I have the uber guns, shields, armor, ammo, engines, etc here comes the new round of guns, armor, etc and you gotta do it all over again. I'm sure I spent 2 or 3 grand in just one year lol. And if you didn't do that you better stay in the safe zones with crap loot. F2P is very expensive if you actually want to win. F2P without spend major money is usually a sad experience. And they're sneaky about it lol. They release new ship armor and you think well, I could spend 75 bucks this month and uber armor all my main ships. Then your done. Next month or so new engines come out. You think well if I buy these new engines for all my main ship it'll only cost me maybe 100 bucks. And this keeps happening every month or two. When you actually add it up you realize you spent like 400 bucks in 3 months lol. That's always been my experience with F2P.
 

Corwyn

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It doesn't have to be. There are many different factors. But even if it is perfect on launch there is always the chance to screw it up.

Look at the whole mess with shard shields. For 14 years we had a nice system of veteran rewards and transfer tokens. Suddenly they get combined and it is a big mess. You tick off players who now feel pay to win and you hurt revenue by making a previously store-only item available in-game.
Nobody is saying that it should be implemented without putting thought into it. Several factors would need to be weighed before making a decision as to what should and should not be sold in a shop. But the subscription model as it sits is antiquated. And if you add the EA shop to the subscription, it can certainly feel like a slap in the face.

I'm using GW2's model as a comparison. In my opinion, it's done very well. It's a complex system, but it certainly seems to work for them. In fact, they make enough money to be able to add new content at least once a month. They have an on-going storyline that they add to quite often. That money all comes from game shop items, which can be bought with real money (or in-game gold, because their system allows for indirect gold to cash trading).

I believe DDO, LOTRO and SW:TOR all use the free to play model to various degrees. It does work... at least for these games.
 

Corwyn

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Honestly I do feel that way. I was into BSG online for awhile. My guild was awesome and I loved that game. I still do but now all my stuff is second rate. New guns came out for my ships and I'd buy them all over time. Just about the time I have the uber guns, shields, armor, ammo, engines, etc here comes the new round of guns, armor, etc and you gotta do it all over again. I'm sure I spent 2 or 3 grand in just one year lol. And if you didn't do that you better stay in the safe zones with crap loot. F2P is very expensive if you actually want to win. F2P without spend major money is usually a sad experience. And they're sneaky about it lol. They release new ship armor and you think well, I could spend 75 bucks this month and uber armor all my main ships. Then your done. Next month or so new engines come out. You think well if I buy these new engines for all my main ship it'll only cost me maybe 100 bucks. And this keeps happening every month or two. When you actually add it up you realize you spent like 400 bucks in 3 months lol. That's always been my experience with F2P.
There are ways to do the F2P system without making it Pay 2 Win. I'd never even attempt to play the game you mention because they made it "the person with the most money wins." I've never like that.
 

JC the Builder

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But the subscription model as it sits is antiquated. And if you add the EA shop to the subscription, it can certainly feel like a slap in the face.
So what is your solution then? UO is now free to play, what are you going to put in that item shop that players are going to buy tens of thousands of per month?
 

Giggles

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Hey everyone,
This thread has abandoned the topic of the original post several times. It seems arguments from other threads are bleeding into this one. I feel it’s time to put this thread to rest, since I believe the OP’s question has been answered.
 
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