Mantras of the Principles

[GreyPawn]

To the Event Moderators and the writers of today's final Shadowlord arc event:

I know it's a small thing, but please be aware that Truth, Love and Courage are not Virtues. These are the Principles from which the Virtues are derived. They do have mantras. The mantras are Ver (Truth), Amo (Love), and Cor (Courage).

They are not Ahm (Honesty), Mu (Compassion), and Ra (Valor). Those would be their directly derivative Virtues.

It looks silly for Lady Dawn to say otherwise.

 

[Uriah Heep]

At least someone remembers

 

[Trebr Drab]

To the Event Moderators and the writers of today's final Shadowlord arc event:

I know it's a small thing, but please be aware that Truth, Love and Courage are not Virtues. These are the Principles from which the Virtues are derived. They do have mantras. The mantras are Ver (Truth), Amo (Love), and Cor (Courage).

They are not Ahm (Honesty), Mu (Compassion), and Ra (Valor). Those would be their directly derivative Virtues.

It looks silly for Lady Dawn to say otherwise.

I don't believe that's ever been specifically proven. The words "ver", "amo', and "cor" were gathered separately but combined into the word "veramocor". Nothing has ever shown, to my knowledge, what any of these words represent. Some say that "veramocor" is the powerword associated with Infinity, the combination of the Principles, "The One True Axiom". Some say "veramocor" is the powerword for Humility. But I think it's all a bit of speculation. As is the idea that these words gained separately are the mantras to the Principles (but possible, my point is that it's not definitely proven).

At any rate, "veramocor" seems to be a powerword, not a mantra, by it's usage to unlock the gate to the core of the world and later Dungeon Doom (thus associating it with Humility as it's powerword).
Also, the Principles don't seem to have mantras at all.

I agree though that using the mantras of the associated Virtues is definitely wrong.

One of the great things about UO and the entire Ultima series is that all things are gathered by players. Not all things are explained definitively. So we have a lot of speculation, questions, and open questions in all the lore. This gives it all a "realistic" feel, just as in RL there are many questions and arguments over history, the meanings of things, and all that. This is a very interesting depth that you just don't find very often.

 

[sablestorm]

Ver, Amo, and Cor are Truth, Love, and Courage respectively in the Gargish language. What's noteworthy about this is the gargish language is basically the same as the language of magic, sharing many of the power words for magical spells. It falls in line with the mantras being included in the Gargish language to represent each virtue. Thus if Mu, the gargoyle word for Compassion, is indeed a mantra for compassion, then one could argue that Ver, the gargoyle word for Truth, is the mantra for truth.

It's all very interesting because the Gargoyles themselves ascribe to different principles and virtues (Control, Passion, and Diligence which beget the virtues of Direction, Feeling, Persistence, Balance, Achievement, Precision, Order, and
Singularity).

 

[Lady Mana]

To the Event Moderators and the writers of today's final Shadowlord arc event:

I know it's a small thing, but please be aware that Truth, Love and Courage are not Virtues. These are the Principles from which the Virtues are derived. They do have mantras. The mantras are Ver (Truth), Amo (Love), and Cor (Courage).

They are not Ahm (Honesty), Mu (Compassion), and Ra (Valor). Those would be their directly derivative Virtues.

It looks silly for Lady Dawn to say otherwise.

I don't think all the shards had the same event 'lead up'. The shard I participated on didn't mention any principles of Truth, Love and Courage at all. So don't address the Event Moderators as a whole, I don't think.

However, perhaps the Lady Dawn on whatever shard you play chose those to represent *her* virtues? The Commander of the guard on our shard had virtues that he chose to represent his character, maybe this EM was doing something similar.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ver, Amo, and Cor are Truth, Love, and Courage respectively in the Gargish language. What's noteworthy about this is the gargish language is basically the same as the language of magic, sharing many of the power words for magical spells. It falls in line with the mantras being included in the Gargish language to represent each virtue. Thus if Mu, the gargoyle word for Compassion, is indeed a mantra for compassion, then one could argue that Ver, the gargoyle word for Truth, is the mantra for truth.

It's all very interesting because the Gargoyles themselves ascribe to different principles and virtues (Control, Passion, and Diligence which beget the virtues of Direction, Feeling, Persistence, Balance, Achievement, Precision, Order, and
Singularity).

Aye, so it leaves the question, do the Principles have Mantras?
It's interesting that the Gargoyle Principles do have Mantras, while their Virtues do not. Reversed of the human situation. But then, maybe it's a question of discovery, or lack thereof.

 

[MalagAste]

Who could even tell what was going on at all?

Heck 90% of the time I couldn't see a THING Dawn was saying because 60% of the people there were spamming Armageddon over and over. Between that and folk spamming every spell in the books, 50 dragons flapping their wings all over and another 60 players or more, who could tell just WTF was going on?

 

[Trebr Drab]

Who could even tell what was going on at all?

Heck 90% of the time I couldn't see a THING Dawn was saying because 60% of the people there were spamming Armageddon over and over. Between that and folk spamming every spell in the books, 50 dragons flapping their wings all over and another 60 players or more, who could tell just WTF was going on?

It's really hard to "keep the faith" with the way this game is going.

The UO developers for years have reminded me of the old D+D days, paper and pencil, when Monty Hall campaigns sprung up all over the place. It's pinata time.

 

[Uriah Heep]

The shard I participated on didn't mention any principles of Truth, Love and Courage at all.

You had no Book of Truth or Bell of Courage or Candle of Love events?
sheeesh!

 

[Draconi]

You had no Book of Truth or Bell of Courage or Candle of Love events?
sheeesh!

Our apologies - believe me, this was just an unfortunate oversight. To me, it's a great personal irony, as we've been internally drilling into the studio at large what "Ultima" is, and the Virtues are one of its core definitions.

So...

Veramocor can be inferred to be the mantra of Infinity, both as implied in the older games, and also based (as posted above) on the fact that the mantra for Singularity (the Gargoyle axiom) is Unorus (un = control, or = passion, us = diligence).

If there are doubts about whether or not the words "un" "or" "us" are mantras, or powerwords, I would lean towards mantras. If only because they're included in the "Book of Lost Mantras" in Ultima 6.

For the purposes of UO, both with the new SA content and moving forward, we would consider Ver, Amo, and Cor to be the mantras for the Three Principles (Truth, Love, and Courage respectively).

I've always figured they stood for Veracity, Amor, and Courage myself, but that's probably just wishful thinking

In the future, I'm certain that Dawn will be more mindful of the Virtues and the Principles, especially now that she'll need to interact with the Gargoyles' own interpretation of the Codex.

In the meantime, please enjoy the following mantras, lost to time and now restored unto us:
* Kim
* Rum
* Bem
* Dim
* Sum
* Kyo
* Lox
* Nid
* Pey
* Beh
* Cah
* Biff
* Pow
* Bang
* Lis
* Zowie
* Cow
* Frem
* Spam
* Yum
* Tea
* Meow

 

[Slayvite]

Wouldn't, Truth - Ver - Veritas (latin for Truth) be more likely?

 

[Draconi]

Wouldn't, Truth - Ver - Veritas (latin for Truth) be more likely?

Oooh, good point.

 

[Otis Firefly]

Dim Sum Zowie Cow Meow?..............

 

[DevilsOwn]

spam as mantra... love it

 

[Lady Mana]

@Uriah Heep: Hahaha. No of course we did THOSE. I mean what Greypawn was talking about,with the weekend event in particular xD
-----
I always associated the 'Ver' with verity, as well. Mind, on Napa Valley there is a shrine of Singularity from an old event, and its mantra is "Pritas".

In the meanwhile... it's tea time, meow!

 

[GreyPawn]

"In the meantime, please enjoy the following mantras, lost to time and now restored unto us:"

Quoted appropriately from The Lost Book of Mantras. I am fortunate enough to have a copy.

I've always held that the "Ver" stood for the latin "Veritas", which quite literally means truth. This is where Verity, the isle on which Moonglow, City of Honesty sits, gets its name.

It is also interesting to note the parallels between the unique ores of Britannia and the Principles. The three unique metals are Agapite, Verite, and Valorite. Agapite, rose-colored, is a derivative of Agape, a selfless Love. Verite, which is strangely green, the color of Justice, derives from Ver, Truth. Valorite, likely named because "Corite" would have sounded odd, is light blue rather than red - red being the color of natural iron ore before it is smelted.

And of course, the entire darned religion being an extrapolation of Lord British's fascination with The Wizard of Oz. The Scarecrow (Brain/Truth), the Tinman (Heart/Love) and the Lion (Courage/Courage) all helping to guide Dorothy (The Avatar) through a land of wonder.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Wow theres a uo designer actually reading stratics !

*applauds*

Ok that was a small oversight, what about the big oversight of Shadowlords being killed in a simple PVM manner ?

And people thinking the Armageddon spell (last time I casted it it was 3 UO paragraph long and required THE blackrock GEM) only damages shadowlords ? That spell is called retribution, or WAS called retribution when the original team were roleplaying the FoA.

To me who's been following "what Ultima really is" and who cried over the darned game probably a hundred of times ; it's simply ruining the whole point of it... the shadowlords cannot die just like that. Even if they didn't really die, why do you make the people beleive like that. Everyone been telling me ; no you don't get it , we killed the REAL shadowlords this time. Confusion should not be mingled with roleplaying...

Or maybe you have something else in mind, I don't mean to spill the beans, but I feel utterly laughed at, because I have no fighting skills, I am not even wanted in those events, nor I can participate in ANYTHING.

Thats not what UO is meant to be...

 

[Artemyth]

The Shadowlords can't be killed 'just like that' in my opinion, either. They never really can be killed. I like to think that in the effort to slay the Shadowlords, the 'Truth, Love and Courage' that everyone had is what truly helped defeat them. You know they'll inevitably be back... but for now, I think they've been put into a temporary quiescence. Enough to establish a semblance of balance to the realm again, at least.

 

[sablestorm]

The Shadowlords can't be killed 'just like that' in my opinion, either. They never really can be killed. I like to think that in the effort to slay the Shadowlords, the 'Truth, Love and Courage' that everyone had is what truly helped defeat them. You know they'll inevitably be back... but for now, I think they've been put into a temporary quiescence. Enough to establish a semblance of balance to the realm again, at least.

The way you destroy a Shadowlord is to get it to stand on the opposing flame of principle and cast their shard into said fire. At least that's how we destroyed them in Ultima 5.

Actually, now that I think about it, just saying their name would summon them. Can you imagine if that happened in UO?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Hehe, thats a good comical releif. But yeah of course things ought to be adapted, but there was a philosophy about the shadowlords, that they were part of each avatar in a way.

So I really hardly see them being vainquished just like another monster... and according to my friends it wasn't even hard. The shadowlords usually weren't protrayed as fools who'd trap themselves into a dungeon and wander aimlessly waiting to be swarmed by an army of dragons... even a ritual I think wouldn't be fit for UO shadowlords... it would need those principles to be active in many ways.

 

[Trebr Drab]

For the purposes of UO, both with the new SA content and moving forward, we would consider Ver, Amo, and Cor to be the mantras for the Three Principles (Truth, Love, and Courage respectively).

If it's not in the game, it didn't happen.

I agree that this handling of the Shadowlords is really lacking. I'd like to see a lot less fiction and a lot more in the game.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I'm going to get ignored again, just watch it happen...

 

[Trebr Drab]

I'm going to get ignored again, just watch it happen...

They just don't want to get into an argument, it's not personal. Devs in arguments can't win no matter what (it's a nightmare for them), so they avoid that like the plague.

Either that or you are the plague, heh.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

I think thats more on the spot...

But if thats true, I might be the only one who knows the nature of the plague. I hope I'm not, but regardless, it wouldn't surprise me.

Besides it's not an argument, they told it themselves that they strived to make the experience as UO is meant to be. If they can't satisfy players who paid the game for 10 years, sometimes on multiple accounts ; they ain't cutting it sharp enough.

It's not hard to give me game, I just need something to THINK about. Not just stuff like... oh Casca displeases the people, so we'll give them Dawn. Same shallow situation, no philosophy, no community...

nothing, just blind trust, from my playing perspective she could be a freakin shapeshifter usurping Lady Dawn's identity. But we don't think, she's queen now by COMMON accord of her people. It seems I'm not of her people either... cause I don't agree, thats not what a queen does.

Heroes, heroes, just like that would rekindle the true UO... it's pathetic. And now they're going to have pvp zones... but yet this is terribly OOC.

It... makes... no... sense... no argument there.