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Lord British needs your opinion on PvP!


Roberto Donnini

Just my considerations, with my horrible english but i hope all you can understand me.
I love PvP but i hate respawn and be killed again and again and again.... what would i like? a game where is possibile to kill other PGs also because just i play a "serial killer", but must be dangerous and hard. Must be possibile for a lvl 1 kill a lvl 1200 ... and for the killer the dath is permanent... no more respawn... but just MUST create a new character. And other people can help me to kill a group of killers... and guards MUST help me.
And if the killer escape, if someone saw him, he will be wanted in all world with a reward over the head.... and, in the world in my mind, there are the GMs who can be God..... if they want that killer will suffer much in his life in the game.
And if guards get the "killer" (or who tried to kill another PG or NPG) he goes in jail, after a trial... (a game in the game... why not my character could be an advocate....).
I mean just this... you can try to make all you want in the world but isn' t so simple just because you are a 1200 lvl guardian full plated mage assasin.... and you must be ready to pay the consequences .


Stratics Veteran
I did not read through all the posts (short on time) so forgive me if i re-post some ideas.

A few ideas.

1. To discourage gankfests Maybe some kind of miss fire system can be introduced. As in too many players grouped together or attacking a single target can not reliably target the victim and have a high chance of attacking their mates instead.

2. Like in UO towns should remain safe from player killing but not stealing. Thieving should have a higher chance of failing and there should be a gear requirement to engage in stealing in town (to avoid your naked dudes (risking nothing when they steal).

3. The areas directly outside of the towns could have patrols and guard outposts. The further away from towns the lower presence of any authority patrols on main roads and the like. You would also have a higher reward level as in better crafting materials/loot the more vulnerable the area.

I played UO as the newb getting slaughtered and the guy slaughtering newbs. The game was extremely fun on both sides of the halberd/e-bolt. The openness of UO is what really created an amazing game and magical experience. Giving into any carebear mentality(EA:() will just ruin the game and make it your generic mmorpg. No matter how much hand holding there is some people are never gonna be comfortable with putting that much on the line but thats what was so great about UO. Win or lose you got a great rush!

Hope you guys make a great game and wish you lots of luck.

Han Telemnar

Stratics Veteran
Here is the deciding factor of me even loading and trying this game when it comes out:

1. PVP must be completely open and model how UO was originally created (i.e., Felucca ruleset).

My personal reasoning for this is that UO was never more enjoyable for me than before the creation of Trammel. I, of course, advocate improving the original pvp rule-set (e.g., new player experience). However, if there is any version of a "trammel", I won't even bother. For me, Trammel truly ruined the magic of Ultima Online. I can't quite explain it. I might have to think of exactly why this is. I am sure there are many who would argue and agree with the above. The fact is, UO was the best sandbox game (and arguably still is) BECAUSE of Richard's original design. It allowed the player to do, be, and act anyway they choose. UO allowed for the player to shape and mold the game. That key element is what made Richard's invention so damn magical.

Brian Fullblade

Stratics Veteran
For me the ultimate draw of Ultima was the realism and the risk. I agree with most that trammel killed Uo for me. Now from my perspective I was not a PK I was a crafter and some pve mainly a smith. Part of being a crafter was gathering supplies and beating out the other crafters and villians for them. Just like it would have been in the real world. Same with pve part of the realism and the excitement was the looking over your shoulder at all times. You can protect the noobs with larger guarded areas around the cities and let them get past certain goals before throwing them to the wolves. Possibly give them the option to go through newbie quests and or a newbie only dungeon. Go back to Orgins ideals and trust your vision as it was back then. Make a game you would love to play and the world will follow suit.


Stratics Veteran
well my humble opinion about pvp will be :
- i care more for balanced pvp on 1 vs 1 ( group fighting is just ganking that cant be fixed ) ,
- there should not be a " class " or " skill " that will bring you ultimate powers to slay everyone with ease . eg: the typical mage on this mmorpgs that's a really sad thing
- now about PKs ( murderers ) , well they want to be the bad guys , so they should be treated like bad guys , make their lives miserable :)

sorry for my bad english :)


Stratics Veteran
(Sorry for my bad english!)
I had my best gamer experience with Ultima Online, and I can't still find a game that can give me what Ultima gave to me. What made Ultima Online the best game ever done? It simply was a fantasy LIVING world. A dangerous world where everything could happen, where you could meet strange creatures, and more than that where you could meet EVIL people who wants to kill you, to steal everything from you etc... You must be ready for everything that can happen, thats why I think that PVP should be FREE EVERYWHERE, even in the cities (where the guards can save you anyway).

P.S. Thanks Lord British for your work, I am very grateful. HAIL!
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huma dragonbane

Stratics Veteran
I enjoyed the earlier times in Uo, when you could hunt down pk's using your guild of bounty hunters. The bounty being a large source of pride ammongst murderers. Remove his/her head and collect the bounty. I do agree with Nexus about PVP/PVE being together is highly incompatible. Some people need that security blanket knowing all the world is a fluffy paradise. Others crave that adrenaline rush and paranoia that the other person that just walked onto their screen may or may not be a kind person. I would seperate the servers from PVP/PVE. The PVE servers would have the difficulty cranked up on the mobs though. If they want the safe route then its gonna take a small guild/Army to take down Dragons/Ancient Wyrms. I would buff the loot from mobs on the PvP server just to make the paranoia just a little higher. I would also make NPC guilds for Assassins that Players could join. In a bounty reversal/revenge system, (Insert player name here) killed my Murderous PK and thus collected the bounty on my head. I now wish to spend 50,000 gold peices for his head in return! Then the assassin guild takes up the contract and sub-contract it out to the player base. I think it would also be nice to have a running counter for each player about the number of times they killed someone / died. Accessable throgh the paperdoll in the journal area. Same with the PVE area Monsters killed/Deaths. Also, bring back useful PVP thievery! All I see in backpacks these days are "Insured this, Blessed that" makes my thief a very poor man.
I pked in the earliest days of the game along with some friends. we had no real skills up high. i think i had 75 swords and my friend had 60 magery. and the rest of our friends were about equal. but we pked the roads between britain and trinsic with a vengience.... we had the backing of a wealthy gm mage that would also res us after our deaths. the point is if the world was set up with a bounty system as well as having player killer murderers with a permanent say 10 or 20 point skill max deduction so say they can never gain beyond 80 ever again means that player killers would have to rely on their own communities for survival as much as for hunting. blues would be a little less threatened if they were gm and came across a red knowing they had a little higher skill then them and stood a better chance in a one on one fight. that is the best way i can think for both worlds to co-exist while not having a player friendly trammel. because lets face it trammel changed everything and was the beginning of the end for uo...........


Stratics Veteran
We would like to provide an open UO style world, but we do not want to run off newbies. Please give me your ideas for and opinions about PvP in what you see as the Ultimate RPG.

Lord British
While all of the recommendations and feedback are great, UO boiled down to simplicity. It had a ton of things to offer, but all at simple levels. It was the players that would take that simplicity and turn it into something complex. For instance; I saw mention of bounty / court type systems, this is a role that guilds would fulfill. You could join them or pay for protection and as a result they would ward reds from you, this is where the "KoS" or Kill on Sight ruling came from. Ultima Online was so amazing not because of 'systems' it had, but because of what it didn't have. UO had the openness to allow players to do whatever they wanted, if you wanted to kill someone in a town - the more power to you, granted it wasn't very easy given insta-kill guards.

To me, UO was by far the greatest game I've played and much for the reasons listed above.. openness. You have seemingly endless options with never a moment of "hey you have to do this now" "no you can't do that yet". If you wanted to tame something you could try, even if you had the smallest chance in the world at least you are able to attempt, same goes for spells and crafting. The lack of structure is what made UO the game that it was.

What would be more of a focal point is the gameplay that circles PvP. If plans are to still uphold the magery style of PvP then I would suggest looking at the time that UO offered non-freeze / precasting. Mobility magery casting was the defining PvP experience for mmos, nothing has been close since. The casting style yielded a fast-paced, competitive, and suspenseful experience that was even more addicting. In terms of PvP, UO did lack options for melee / non-mages, which would be a tough thing to work out to preserve balance but provide a whole new style to the previously perfect gameplay.

As a side note, an economic suggestion; not allowing infinite gold loops (not having vendors buy junk / monsters dropping gold).

I'd really love to talk to a developer and see where the progress is and possibly elaborate on my economic ideas, extending to housing as well.

Last note: Please have music similar to UO, music plays a massive role is making the whole experience come together and dictates how immersed the player can become.
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Stratics Veteran
The ability to res your team-mates while in combat needs to remain. Nothing beats getting a clutch res off in the middle of some group PvP.

I like the concept of fighting while Mounted for increased mobility while being a easier target if your off mount, its something that I think still makes UO unique to this day.

Thieves need to be able to cripple people by making clutch steals of key items such as bandages / reagents and even being able to take weapons. It was frustrating as heck but its adds a whole element to the game.

PvP needs to remain spontaneous the fact that a massive scale fight can break out anywhere is amazing. I do think that things like battlegrounds / arena's are also acceptable and would be welcomed but world PvP needs to feel spontaneous and not forced.
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Îllicit Fist

Stratics Veteran
It is an rpg, more it is a sandbox rpg.

So do something that has not been done. This first bit is opening more options to initiative and depth.
1.Dialog Options Basic
"Rhiannon" Thanks for your input back on the first page.
Non Combative Player XP Gains
-Dialog sends a player a message that gives options, these can be from initiating emotes, to ultimatums, to more complex social interactions. Having the ability to have premade dialogs would keep larger events more fluid.
So player thieves can now, "Hey there missy how bout them baubles." you can respond "to offer them your loot" or "let me work for you." or Die, and actually... Help!
The victim can initiate a response, something like let me keep my dagger... If the item is left in tact till xp is factored the thief gets a little bonus. The victim also gets the bonus. In addition you can leave feedback on the dialog, and give them a nod.
This system tracks the actions. So when xp is earned at the end of a session ! ... /faint Also feedback obtained can be used to reflect any higher powers that scry the character one plays.
What do I mean - The player is a thief so the actions of the thief direct what kind of thief he is. The player is rewarded for playing the thief, as well as initiating a positive environment for other players. To elaborate, a bard or entertainer could issue dialog with those in a tavern about a joke, music, story or tale.

Now different characters of different skills could be issued more options. A guild leader might offer more, in order to avoid death.

The idea here is simple, it initiates dialog between 2 players, whom have the real world traits of being gamers.

Feedback can be simple, or more complex, depending on the dialog. Meta- did they rp? Unique users offer more sway.

The call for help, its range to open dialog could be massive, depending on the type of player and how he/she plays. This could lead to someone whom is loved as a crafter and entertainer but largely non combat who also has large following and tons of positive feedback. To have the help heard by someone of similar faction and of immense power the direction/location of victim. To elaborate more, the purer the victim the subtle benefits conveyed to the helper, from buffs to quicker cast time on a portal skill.

Red Rage Declaration, **** just got real... and everyone knows there is a red who is getting ready to kill, you can either step up or resume what your doing "become flagged combative" or drop whats in your hands and run.
While you always have the option to kill other reds, this is different, like a personal war with those around you. People have 10 seconds to respond, it takes 10 seconds to rage. Those that run will do so until another action is made if they are still in the area they will be flagged combative.
This system here can obtain a ton of meta information, lots of options for the future.

Permanent Death, or Permanent Wounds and Scars
Player Killer Hunters, "anti's" obtain a contract or writ issued by an elected/appointed magistrate to kill a player killer, this is the double bladed sword that requires significant effort to earn the right to even carry the contract "faction favor"

1 Signpost outside settlements inform a pk that they are being hunted, and by whom "the anti can remain anonymous" think old west wanted poster.
2 There are 2 names on a contract the pk and the anti, if either one finishes the other as a final blow, a death game is played rock paper scissors. If the victim wins he can choose the penalty, either a permanent negative stat/level/skill or take a 5% chance at permanent death, increased by 5% for each time the character has ever tried to avoid a permanent negative effect.
3 PK's are consented by drawing innocent blood, the anti has to seek out the writ in order to become vulnerable. Thus Consent.

In addition to the pk-anti's any player "with enough favor" can issue a duel to the death this of course is consensual. Via the dialog system, in game events could take place regarding the outcome.

Mindless initiation of combat with a unique user, non combative or undeclared will issue penalties to xp earned, skill maintenance and increase the chances of negative npc interaction.


Stratics Veteran
I just thought I'd share some of my ideas. PvP needs to be available absolutely everywhere. In towns and cities the guards will come to your aid to protect you outside of town it is very much the wild wild west.

I specifically want to talk about some of my ideas for bounties. If you decide to become a bounty hunter or Vigalante there should be a map of some sort showing locations of high levels of player deaths caused by PK's for the last hour of play or so. This would serve two purposes (1) It will make it hard for PK's to camp an area for too long as that area will eventually get flagged (2) It gives the bounty hunter an incentive to go check that area out. Bounties should be entirely player driven to avoid any exploitation and players should be able to post rewards for PK's that have killed them. A bounty hunter should be able to effectively track his target perhaps with a sniffer dog which could also double as a small bonus in combat (example: Slowing down the PK if he bolts). As for killing newbies I think a more symbolic punishment would be much more fun! A quick example would be, if a bounty hunter catches a PK who preys on new players then an option of capturing that PK and taking him to the closest city to be put in the stockade for a few hours (An hour per new player perhaps) in turn the PK would lose access to that character for a few hours. Where the normal decent folks of New Britania could mock him and throw apples/horse dung on him, and if he killed your new player you would be notified of this and you could get your sweet sweet revenge when the PK is defenseless.

I see no need for stat loss or Perma death for PK's, just a leveling of the playing field.

Just a few simple ideas


Stratics Veteran
Anything that can affect PVP should require some PVP risk to obtain. For example, getting steel to make a new sword should totally lay in the purview of getting killed and looted. This is the risk you take to contribute to whatever combat is happening. However something as benign as say, tailoring, which has no real meaning in PVP, should be able to be done in a satisfying way without any risk of being murdered and looted for your precious fancy shirts. This could be done by allowing all that is necessary to tailor (or other benign skill, or benign uses of some skills) to be found within a guard zone or other form of protection. This kind of seperation of skills and what you have to do to use them, from combative and benign, would create a good balance between the two playstyles.

With this philosophy PvE would necessarily have to be apart of the PvP system, since the same skills could be used to either effect. Having a guy leveling up his swords skill and becoming king **** with swords without ever fighting a human opponent until he is sure he is the best in the world(GM), and then using said skills to murder people anyways, just does not sit well with me.


Stratics Veteran
We would like to provide an open UO style world, but we do not want to run off newbies. Please give me your ideas for and opinions about PvP in what you see as the Ultimate RPG.

Lord British

1. Avoid Levels and Rigid Zones
Most MMOs seem to resort to separating new and experienced players into levels and zones. This approach causes the ‘leveling curve’ problem – and somewhat related (it makes swaths of land unusable to a player depending on what level they are at)

This may be a bit redundant but, take UO for example: Ultima Online of course didn’t have levels really and it didn’t really have zones.

I remember getting together with 10 other newbies and swarming a RedPK GM swordsman and beating him down with the clubs from our newbie gear. (thanks to stamina drain from trying to run away through us) That isn’t something you could do in any other MMO that I can think of. While it was difficult in UO, as it should be, to tangle with higher skilled players, it wasn’t impossible to defeat them through a little craftiness. – While it wasn’t a good idea going into Destard as a newbie, it wasn’t impossible to run through and recover your GM Mage friend loot.

Great things about UO aside, I think taking a step out of the world of MMO can offer new ideas on how to handle PVP. In pen and paper games, it isn’t zones and levels that separate the characters – it is the story that binds them together. I don’t think any MMO to date has made any leaps and bounds in advanced questing in PVP or PVE.

2. Advanced Questing
When I make a pen and paper story if I have a variety of player characters I cater to it -- I create quests that require 1 high level wizard, 2 mid level warriors, 1 low level thief. I have applied this method even in PVP between two groups of players.

Don’t make all the goals of PVP simply a test of who has the biggest sword or combination of spells. Allow PVP to be based upon“contests” which apply a character(s) unique collection of combat and social abilities to the circumstances/location of the encounter that cannot be anticipated by simply having 1 member of each class in your party and all the best gear. A contest should be generated based on the player(s) in the opposing groups.

1. Assess which players/groups are contesting one another
2. Enumerate their skills and weaknesses
3. Pair skills against weaknesses
4. Generate a circumstance to fit the paired skills/weaknesses
5. Customize the circumstance to the local area, fit it into a hierarchy of storyline
6. Begin testing each skill and the player’s choice of when and how to use each (some players may not even take advantage of their skills against weaknesses if they haven't been paying attention)

When doing this bear these 3 things in mind:

1. The contest should not conclude before each player has had a chance to even appreciate their situation or experience – unless they are already aware that they are in a situation where it can conclude very quickly
In an MMO: Maybe allow different kinds of deaths. Once a newbie reaches 0 hp, allow him to run a screen or two and bleed before he keels over (maybe he can get to town so he isn’t looted by the pk) – The PK gets a kill and something for his efforts, the newbie gets to feel like he had a narrow miss and knows at higher levels he will take harder kills
2. Death shouldn’t be total punishment
In pen and paper, I allow players to piggyback their dead players legacy by following it up with their next character.
In an MMO: You might unlock a quest from the act of being killed – you might have creatures to face off with in death – you might even have some boons in death like earning spirit points towards something you can use when you resurrect.
3. Contests shouldn’t lock a player into a single outcome – in MMO’s this is of course, death.
Death isn’t the only thing that can result from a failed confrontation with a competitor. It could be that both walk away but, the defeated player looses wealth, fame, shares in a guild, a title

You also might consider stages of defeat:
Being defeated can be an incrementally hazardous experience - allowing a player to accept penalties for having lost a percentage of the total contest before deciding to break away. Or even allowing a killed player to have inflicted some damage to the victors title, holdings, home security (maybe more dangerous NPC spawn around house), or other boons, rather than nothing at all

I also highly recommend looking at VTM (World of Darkness mainly) social/combat systems for ideas about adding complexity to contesting players and environments. (admin please snub this last paragraph if you find it too promotional sounding. I think you’ll find that they don’t sell these books anymore though)

Oh and lastly, (but this is a personal preference) - keep the fantasy theme. I'm a big fantasy reader DnD player and that is what originally attracted me to UO.

That's all I have for a short post for now. I hope I've put something useful out there for you Richard. -- and thanks for the Ultima series! It's a shame to have fallen into EA hands.
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