Justice and Warfare

[Trebr Drab]

I posted this in another thread, but it's going to get lost under the constant bickering common on message boards. And I think it deserves some thought. This is my idea for a justice system and warfare, best served on a "classic based" shard.

You're getting into that area of restrictions that seem unrealistic. So I don't like it and never have.

How about a real punishment for those who commit crimes within the world of Sosaria? One that does the following:
-limits "crime" (murder and theft) by the risk (hehe, had to use that word because of all the PK "you risk it, we reap reward" attitude) associated with justice for "the people".
-punishes those committing in-game crimes so that, yes, there is justice after all.
-satisfies the victims of the "crimes" that they are not the ultimate losers here.

How about it? The middle ground. Allows for crimes, realism, and builds social networks through cooperation. Gives meaning to the world, to crimes, to justice, to bounties, and to the societies that Sosaria's players can offer.

Coragin, I wanted to expand this to get into my picture of the war system, tied into this.

I have a problem with it, and hope maybe you or someone else can help.

Yes, we want some rowdiness available. That makes the world spin.
So I propose a war system like this.
Guild or city/alliance.
Members of such can join the military order of any guild. If they do, they are open to all conflict with any other military orders of other guilds.
However, they also get extra resources from all sources, gold from MOBs, Ore, Lumber, Skins, gems, whatever.
These extra go directly to a War Chest owned by the guild and locked down in their Guild Headquarters.

The guild can sell resources from the war chest, dole them out, add to them by donations, it's basically a guild bank vault.​

Wars can be declared by any guild on any other guild at any time.

-a challenge fee is put up at the war declaration. The winner of the war takes this amount from the other guild. The warred guild must pay this if they lose, either immediately or it is "owed" and comes out as any gold is added to their war chest.​

War winners get a banner that states they have defeated "so and so" in a war, and the date.
You win the war by defeating the number of members in the military order.

Once killed in combat, the character is removed from the military order for a week. This gives meaning to attrition and a means to actually wear down an enemy. Don't die!​

Non-military guild members are safe from conflict. They don't get the extra harvesting benefits. They can donate to the guild War Chest. They can be a productive part of their guild, without having to be a PvPer.

There's more detail in my idea, but that's the main parts.
My problem with it is that non-military members can interfere in battles while being safe from attacks. Heals and such is easy, bump them into the military for a time frame. But blocking is the hard one.

Any ideas to fix my problem? Does anyone even like the idea?

The best thing about this is that it serves not only to make UO feel more realistic, it not only finds the "Middle Ground", but it can be expanded to player built cities if UO goes that way. These War Chests could be the basis for paying for special city constructions, thus making them even more important and worth fighting over, all the while leaving non-PvPers out of direct conflict. Yet still able to help build and participate.

 

[Vaen Swiftar]

This sounds like a pretty solid foundation for an idea that could actually work. I scanned the general idea of it amidst studying for my final later today. It does sounds good, though. Could use some fine tuning, and would need some preventative measures to expel as much abuse as possible, but workable.

 

[Coldren]

An excellent idea. I've been in favor of more factions, but based on City rather than another obscure source, for quite some time as you in particular are probably aware.

Again, War Chests.. Awesome. Something to fight for, be proud of, and completely optional.

As for your problem with those who aren't military interfering, I'd say make it like they used to deal with reds. Once they heal/attack and interfere, they're flagged. But since they can't be drummed out of the military for a week, as it were, drop their insurance for the duration of the flag, and treat them like a red in every other respect.

Harsh, yes but they'll learn quick not to get in the way.

 

[Trebr Drab]

An excellent idea. I've been in favor of more factions, but based on City rather than another obscure source, for quite some time as you in particular are probably aware.

Again, War Chests.. Awesome. Something to fight for, be proud of, and completely optional.

As for your problem with those who aren't military interfering, I'd say make it like they used to deal with reds. Once they heal/attack and interfere, they're flagged. But since they can't be drummed out of the military for a week, as it were, drop their insurance for the duration of the flag, and treat them like a red in every other respect.

Harsh, yes but they'll learn quick not to get in the way.

Basically draft them into the military? (As opposed to being "like a red"?)
That's my thinking.
1) But what about blocking and generally getting in the way?
2) What about walking into a firewall? How do you differentiate a military order member's firewall from general MOBs and blue players, from a "blue guild member"?

 

[Coldren]

Basically draft them into the military? (As opposed to being "like a red"?)
That's my thinking.
1) But what about blocking and generally getting in the way?
2) What about walking into a firewall? How do you differentiate a military order member's firewall from general MOBs and blue players, from a "blue guild member"?

No, I wasn't thinking draft them in. That makes it too easy to opt in and out of a fight. Why risk losing first strike opportunity and make yourself open to ambush, when you can just stay out of it, and only jump in when you feel like it?

As for blocking, well.. That's going to be a problem no matter how you look at it. Best way to do it? Just like how in Tram, there is no collision detection, turn it off for non-military opted players. Let others run right through them.

Firewalls and "collateral damage". Well, how did it work in the old days? I forget.. I think it was "If you walk through it, you're flagged". Again, harsh, but really, the only way to go about doing it. There aren't enough programmers on earth to determine voluntary and involuntary action with AoE spells..

Unless of course you only make them do damage to NPC targets. Which, given forethought in design - Have a list of abilities in each skill that are PvE only, and others that are PvP only, but both grow with your skill gain.. That'd yield the best hopes at achieving any kind of balance. That, however, would take too much effort for something like UO to implement.

 

[Evlar]

Trebr Drab...

Great concepts. Sadly, I doubt they will ever see the light of day in UO. Not on productions shards at least. If this forum is anything to go by over the last couple of days, I just don't think enough of the prodo shard populace care enough for PvP to... well... care.

Would have loved to see something along those lines though. I've never been greatly into PvP unless there's some point to it. Sadly, factions has been broken for a long time, or exploited to death by those with no interest, other than what items are on offer. On many shards, factions activity is utterly non-existent.

Some of the best fun I've had with PvP, was working as a team with others doing sigils on Great Lakes. On one occasion, I didn't kill a single player, but performed my role, which was to stealth into the opposition base, scout it out and report back to the attack party. I went undetected for nearly an hour. It was great fun. Good strategy, good teamwork. The key reason for any PvP in an MMO in my book. Working together with other players, to achieve a goal. It's entirely those players, that made the experience fun though. Everyone played a part in achieving the goals ahead of them.

So when you mention the things you have, I think how wonderful it could be. Strategic gameplay, teamwork, good incentives to perform certain tasks. PvP shouldn't have to be purely about the number of people a player can "kill", but how well they participate for the greater good of the "team". Sadly, I can't think of any MMO's that have quite nailed that concept as yet.

 

[Coldren]

... I've never been greatly into PvP unless there's some point to it.

That's sort of the issue he's attempting to address, but I concur. PvP just seems pointless in UO. But then again, that's also all in the eye of the beholder. It used to be for survival, either yours or your opponents livelyhood. In DAoC it was pride, relics, access to Darkness Falls which yielded benefits to everyone. I just personally don't feel any of those things in UO on prodo shards.

Topics like this make me wish I was a better programmer so I could create freeshards that implement ideas like this to see how they'd play out.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Thanks for the support. I think this can be done in UO. I think the current items for power ratios make it a poor system for any PvP, but in a classic based shard it would be very good. Especially if imbalances are fixed from those old days.

This can be really deep. I haven't gone into great detail here. There's levels and levels that you can take this. All the way up to city conquests and kingdom building, and to road building and city guardens with giant golden statues. And trade with caravans, etc. All linked in a realistic way to the resources of said cities, and requiring the ability to maintain control and wealth. By separating this "social/complete" game from the personal game, yet having them intermingle, this can be a great thing, in my mind.

I'll add more later as I have time and get through all the details. I never wrote this idea down, it's in my head. That's why it's sort of rattling around a bit at the moment.
Please feel free to add ideas. I don't have a complete picture, and need input.

 

[Coldren]

I'll add more later as I have time and get through all the details. I never wrote this idea down, it's in my head. That's why it's sort of rattling around a bit at the moment.

I look forward to reading it.

By the sounds of it, it has a lot in common with my expansion idea I wrote a while back. It was also a small fraction of the ideas I had, but no point in going into that further. You were one of the few good enough to at least comment on it. Nation/City building, different factions, thriving vital economy, PvP opt-in..

So get to writing!

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ok, real quick before I'm off to RL land...

Someone mentioned a guild house being owned by the guild, separate from personal houses. This fell right into my thinking on this. Expanding later into player built cities, you need this separation anyways for community construction. And this gives the guild control, not just the current guild master.
Also, the fixes to guilds with large numbers who haven't logged in recently, locking up the guilds functions. Good ideas to make an even bigger picture work.

The next thing is the War Chest. I think this should be something that's built by craftsmen, at no small cost.

The combination of these things prevents newbies from making a big mistake and dumping all their personal wealth into a War Chest, only to have it taken by warring guilds. They get some time to learn the game first as they build up to this.

 

[Warpig Inc]

The reason a lot of plp don't PVP is the hacks. This ideal is another great example of the better mousetrap. Put the ideal into effect and observe the going ons. Catch those that need the 3rd party crutches and insta bump the account 5$ more a month perma each catch Or bann vannish their houses. The item grind is getting old and more player interaction activities or shard competion invasion statues are needed.

Just seen the stream of near touching explosion pots few days ago used on a renown. Let the Code Mages have those random days and shard pick where they get to go in and hunt down those ****ing on their work. Let them have their trophey rooms in major cities with named heads on spikes of that shard. Rather see their name on a spike with "caught by ________" then their name on another goofy holiday reward.



Also on the OP ideal could have a point system for guilds tracked to aviod point fluffing like factions have now. Have an epic surprise fight posted for the otp guilds to get their own unique guild house placed in one those unopened areas. Date time posted and every member logged in can hit a guild member only public teleporter to a battlefield. Time block that players can get to the battlefield. Battlefield is a no player / pet rez area. Large battlefield with terrain and building features balanced about.

Players going into the area have a cursed no remove kill trophey place in their backpack. Only can double click use removed from a corpse pack to player backpack. End time of the fight the trophies can be placed in a container from backpacks. So the most survivors and looted trophies wins. The container is in an area that is gotten to by a guild only teleporter. This would allow a LotR style three or more guilds epic battle.

Unique guild houses could be limited in number and may have to be defended to hold on the battlefield. If a guild with one theese houses ranks high enough to be in an epic fight again their house would be the prize. If they win and hold their house they would earn a staue at their house for bragging rights (stays with house as long as guild holds the house). Multi guild houses in an epic battle would reward a better statue for the winning house and evict the others from theirs.

Features like this that are well thought out could cause game growth. This growth would go to the paychecks of plp whos only job is to promote and observe additions of this nature. Their drive and success in theese endevors would be motivation for job security. UO needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and finder better new uses for it. Any additions that hits big and is driving force for more accounts that exceeds the custom staffs pay would be a win for the EA (money grubbers)

Make it a game within a game. See my older post on ideals along theese lines. Ignore the bad day rants.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Is this it on the interest in this idea?

 

[Derium of ls]

if implemented, this would get me to join a guild for the first time in 7 years, and to PvP again for the first time in 7 years.

 

[maroite]

Firewalls and "collateral damage". Well, how did it work in the old days? I forget.. I think it was "If you walk through it, you're flagged". Again, harsh, but really, the only way to go about doing it. There aren't enough programmers on earth to determine voluntary and involuntary action with AoE spells..

Way too easy to be abused unless I am reading it wrong you're saying that if a blue non military person walks into a military persons fire wall they get flagged? Yeah, no.

Why? Because it will just lead to griefing. People will A. Wall non military people in with firewalls/other field spells or B. Just cast the field right on top of a player and have them flagged.

This coupled with your "change" to non military people jumping in would just not work.

Its best to just not have Area spells do damage/effect people unless the person is flagged. I'm pretty sure this is how it already works in Fel. Blues who cast area spells and then another blue walks through it don't get flagged.

Reds, imho, are murderers aka criminals and should be free game to anyone. With this system you wouldn't even need "reds" as its more a system of war than anything.

 

[Trebr Drab]

He was talking about the caster of the field spells taking the flag, even if someone runs through it. That's how it was before, and I think you're right, that currently only someone targeted will cause the caster to get flagged. I could accept either one.

Yeah, the idea is to separate PvP into a military action. But at the same time have it an integral part of the world. At the same time, allow for "crimes", but with a working justice system. One that really works. If players can't get their PvP kicks from this, as a meaningful system involved in the world, then they deserve the justice punishments. But it also allows for roleplayers to do some things. More importantly, it allows for EMs and GMs to interact in the world in the same system, to add some real life to this game.

These War Chests would start out as purely a resource vault, linked to warfare. A guild wouldn't have to have one. If they do have one, they get the benefits of resource bonuses, but can be attacked for their wealth. It forms a contract, like a game of billiards for money. But for realism, any guild can declare on any other guild, and there's no choice in the matter. What this does is add politics in the form of alliances for protection and mutual benefit.

Question--Maybe it would be better to allow any guild to make a War Chest, but they only get the resource benefits if they form a military order?

 

[Trebr Drab]

Ok, I submitted a new post with a Poll on a more elaborated version of this idea. This one serves well for a basic view.