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Just Let Us Have Custom Castles & Keeps Already! Forget the Contest!

Castles & Keeps Should Be Customizable


  • Total voters
    106

Lieutenant Dan!

Sage
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They did a fine job on #'s 1 & 2. Congratulations!!!
Some shenanigans are going on with 3 though! lol

For the record I didn't use any of my 6 votes for the empty castle plot. No regrets. The players spoke for it.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
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And congrats to the other 2 or three winners. :thumbsup:

Was a lot of fun. And more to come.
 

Mene (DF)

Seasoned Veteran
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I think the really last word in this case here is not yet spoken - but this winner vote #3 is a terrible felt butt in the ar..se to all those who really fret about this content. I'm not really surprised about and in some way i did even expect something like this - so I'm not so bitterly disapointed - but to see this result it only makes me headshaking what's up in peoples mind. None of my worsest nightmares I could have imagine that someone would live in such a house - ;) - and at the end it's our choise if we want to change our plot to crap or leave it as it is.
My own castle certainly will remain oldstyle...

*grumbles* some people should really give up smoking ****....

aunt edit nr. 2: Democrazy and give folks a choise to choose what they like is certainly fine and important - and this is again a result of this "Time-Consuming-Monster" a small Dev-Team of 5 people have to live with. You cannot be everywhere - but a 5 minute overview and a preview-shoot out next round would really be better - and much more heart-attach-avoiding ;)
 
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skett

Babbling Loonie
Professional
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Unbelievable LOL those won LOL “ this election was rigged” “ by the Russians” LOL :facepalm:

I voted for the empty plot with all but 1 account which accidentally voted for Jellybeans castle which I feel was the nicest one.

So the empty plot is truly 3rd LOL, I hope the Devs get the point hmmm I’m sure they do but the control freak amongst them will not
let us enjoy the game how we would like to so nothing but ugly castle for the masses

:juggle:
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
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The more time i spend in Dot's castle the more i like it getting used to the colors seems to have softened them a bit for me and i can make the design work !!
 

Khaelor

Babbling Loonie
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The more time i spend in Dot's castle the more i like it getting used to the colors seems to have softened them a bit for me and i can make the design work !!
It's the most workable one, the problem is poor design choices have left 3-6 rooms barely usable (most are the corner rooms on the third floor), insisting on having those balconies/banisters for those two story windows was a terrible design choice, more so than the floor, because least i can cover up the floor. Didn't need to be so many 2 stories windows in that castle for it to work. I can't do anything with those rooms as they are, but those corner rooms are my favorite to decorate in my current castles. The balconies also cause horrible sight issues with the floor below it if you try to do stuff against those walls. So decorating the rooms below it is a hassle. Not to mention the balcony in the main room on the third floor takes up a major wall people like to deco and then the windows on the side of that big space further limit design options. Now add in how much granite will be needed to try to cover that mess of a floor. Overall it would have been a really nice design if she took an hour to self edit and really think about the spaces use.

Going forward, people need to design and then self edit. Don't just think of how you would use this space, but others too. If people ask your opinion of their space, give honest feedback, don't just say it's great. Sure two story windows in 8 rooms sound cool, but did it really add to the design or just limit what people could do with the space.

Overall Dot's castle is a nice design, but just a couple design choices can sink the universal usefulness or appeal of a design.
 
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Lord Frodo

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IMHO most of the Castle design were not done by castle owners who know what a pain in the ass the layout of a castle is, they were 18x18 owners building an oversized 18x18 with very little consideration of daily use or how to move around much less where to store all the items a castle can hold or if it is used as a vendor house where to put them. Where are you going to put all your crafting stations / where are you going to display things / where are you going to store all your items / where are you going to have gatherings / how well does the design flow / how easy is it to just get around on one floor and how easy is it to get to other floors.. IMHO very few took any of these into consideration when being designed. We need maximum floor space not a bunch of gardens/water tiles/roofs to place all our personal goodies
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
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I don't know what pills you take but give me some...
How would you feel if your castle or keep won and others came here, cut down your work, and said they weren't going to use it. I would of loved it if I won, but I'm not going to be a sore loser and bash others. Its called good sportsmen ship others should try it sometime
 

ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
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I think it's a great shame that a design contest was turned into a popularity contest, I wonder how many people voted without even looking at all the designs. I don't know why I am even surprised any more, why oh why did the Devs not have a panel of people to choose a short list. I agree with what @Lord Frodo said that most of the people who made designs didn't really know what castle owners were looking for. The keep that won is not much better than what we already had, it still has too many stairs, it also has doors inside and huge fireplaces... let's hope they change the system before the next round of this 'contest'.
 

Finley Grant

Grand Inquisitor
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How would you feel if your castle or keep won and others came here, cut down your work, and said they weren't going to use it. I would of loved it if I won, but I'm not going to be a sore loser and bash others. Its called good sportsmen ship others should try it sometime
well taking part in a public contest should give you the idea that some people dont like your design or criticise it.
and when i look at both desings i see areas which are not well thought thru or built with flaws.

in the end all 3 winning desings have certain flaws like: unusable rooms, missing hand rails, not matching walls/floors/doors, lava fireplace?, ladders and so on. and ultimately: they are still cubes.

this has nothing to do with being a sore looser.
 

ShriNayne

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What Finley is trying to say is that there were many much better designs but they didn't get any votes because of 'shenanigans'....heck I think my own keep was much better but I didn't even vote for mine as number 72 was better in layout, so I voted for that instead. This whole fiasco has left a very bad taste in my mouth to be honest. What a wasted opportunity. :(
 

Finley Grant

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What Finley is trying to say is that there were many much better designs but they didn't get any votes because of 'shenanigans'....heck I think my own keep was much better but I didn't even vote for mine as number 72 was better in layout, so I voted for that instead. This whole fiasco has left a very bad taste in my mouth to be honest. What a wasted opportunity. :(
more or less yes,

iam sorry when i sometimes sound rude or unfriendy, i can assure everyone that in most cases this is not intended, iam just not talking around the bushes and be very directly, this compared with non english as native language sometimes add more "edge" to a post as in initially wanted.
 

Finley Grant

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for me the only "fix" for the now created "problem" would be to allow us custom keeps and castles with added restriction of no granite or no goza when converted in order to keep lag under control.
 

MalagAste

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For me 1 was a NO from the start... first off you fall out the second floor... if you have that as your house in Fel have fun dying.... as people can kill you with that design... same with Siege... enjoy your death... secondly if I wanted a fireplace I'd build my own or put my own in where I want it not where someone else puts it.... don't like that AT ALL. I'd rather have something with a hell of a lot less doors as well... the current design is a pain to get around in a full of wasted space... I'd prefer not to get something else that's a pain to get around in deadly and full of wasted space. And sticking those fence pieces in the back wall what is up with that? Just looks strange and out of place.

As for 2 sure it's a pretty place... but it ain't my cup of tea... not really something I feel you can "live" in... it looks like a freaking church... doesn't really say "guild hall" to me either... so no... also isn't really a castle... as for the 2 tied for 3rd... NO just NO... first off both of them are unfinished... or they look that way... one while it's just a plot and theoretically you "could" use the stone to design whatever you want you then are F'd when it comes to deco and all as the CoT won't work with the stupid craftable tiles... not to mention the LAG that would cause... and the other one just looks horrible with that whatever it is on the roof.... I don't even know what purpose that serves or how one would deco around that.... just wrong looks 1/2 done.

Well one things for sure I won't be using any of the winning designs... But hey whatever... you all work the bugs out of the system and find out if your stuff goes poof or not before everyone else would you... that way when something actually fuctional and useful wins all the bugs will be worked out for the rest of us...

Say what you want about not wanting a box or the same ole stone but that stone is what we have to work with... and I can say it at least looks like a proper castle.
 

GarthGrey

Grand Poobah
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How would you feel if your castle or keep won and others came here, cut down your work, and said they weren't going to use it. I would of loved it if I won, but I'm not going to be a sore loser and bash others. Its called good sportsmen ship others should try it sometime
This wasn't the Huntsmaster Challenge, or a PvP tourny, it was a contest for something that's been asked about for many years, that lots of accounts remain open to this day because of the value (on some shards) that they have. It wasn't a picnic cookout with sack races.
 

Cyrah

Certifiable
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Stratics Legend
I built #1 for me. Not for anyone else, not for fel players or role players or mean players . No one but me. My shard approved it and voted. As did some Atlantic players. I too want custom plots. Big time. Even more than ever now. As for arches, why do you walk into them? Just curious. Thank you to kind players.

Dot's castle is pretty, and well made. Tat's may not have been finished is all. Maybe life happened. The plot has a use. It really does.
Thank you devs.

Thanks Skett for accidentally voting for my castle! And I still miss Cyno and Kaz.
 

Cetric

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I built #1 for me. Not for anyone else, not for fel players or role players or mean players . No one but me. My shard approved it and voted. As did some Atlantic players. I too want custom plots. Big time. Even more than ever now. As for arches, why do you walk into them? Just curious. Thank you to kind players.

Dot's castle is pretty, and well made. Tat's may not have been finished is all. Maybe life happened. The plot has a use. It really does.
Thank you devs.

Thanks Skett for accidentally voting for my castle! And I still miss Cyno and Kaz.

There in lies your problem.

The contest was created to find a design to commit to the housing tool for all players to desire. Adding personal touches that you desire and convincing many players to come vote for your design was in poor taste.


Go look through the housing tool and find some lava tiles. I've never seen a volcano erupt in the back of my house I can tell you that.
 

ShriNayne

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@MalagAste I totally agree with everything you said, the reasons you gave for number 1 were the same reasons it didn't even make my short list
Number 2 looked like a beautiful cathedral to me on the outside, but I couldn't live in it on a daily basis.
Number 3 sheesh I went to that one and got straight back into the portal, I am not a fan of mismatched flooring so it was a no right away.

@Lady Michelle people waited years for new designs and we ended up with ones that very few people will ever use because apparently this was a popularity contest and not a design contest. It wasn't about winning for most of us that owned castles and keeps, it was about getting a better layout for EVERYONE! How would I feel if my design won not because it was good and well thought out but because I was popular? I would personally feel ashamed of myself. :(
 

Cetric

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People have waited many years for castle/keep options. And to potentially be left with these designs because a couple people lobbied for voters with no skin in the game is ridiculous.
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
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We whine and pancake about people wanting to solo UO but then whine and pancake when people make use of the fact that it's an MMO lets all breathe.... what should happen is for them to add the winners to the tool let us convert our current test places and "move into" the new designs for a week or two get our deco and things in see how it looks at least just spend a little time in the design yes Dots castle is bright at first but after an hour or so i got used to it and can deal with it . again i will point out i am willing to bet 80% of the player base has neither a keep or castle and the fact the fact that the dev bothered to at least try to cater to the 20% that do should not be overlooked
 

Amber Witch

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Personally I think this contest was a great learning tool to determine what people actually want.
Don't look at the votes. Those can lead to a false conclusion as we all well know. Look carefully at what people designed and built and what elements were in those structures. I'm betting this can be quantified.

Hopefully the design team will allow these structures to remain for a while so we can learn something from them.

There are 300 structures to review. There's a few that I'm going to suggest that were done knowing that they were not going to win but did it because they thought it was a cool idea and just something they wanted to build so those don't necessarily have to be included (raises hand). The serious ones? The variance in those design styles can be broken down into broad categories. I'll throw out 5 categories just for the heck of it.
  • Same basic European castle as what we currently have but with open space
  • Same basic European castle as what we currently have but with larger rooms
  • Same basic European castle as what we currently have but with more rooms that are small
  • Different culture castle than what we currently have built with different material with the above variations
  • Borg castle. Frankly, I'm not sure what that really means but I've heard people toss it around.
Start a spreadsheet listing which structure fits into which category. Which ever category has the largest number of structures built, review those for common elements. Etc, etc, etc.

Next competition build that if your goal is to build what people want. There's going to be multiple competitions so eventually, hopefully, one that you personally like will get enough votes to win.

The first competition, like anything else, first time is a learning experience. I learned that I still cant do a damn roof.
 

Mrsbug

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Remember to list the things you don't like about our current Castles and Keeps.
I really hate the long hall ways and the inconvenience of trying to get to some of the area's in the current castle.
The keep has area's that we can't use.
Remember you are building not just for yourself but others to use.
 

Slayvite

Crazed Zealot
Supporter
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Stratics Legend
I am finding myself wondering if everyone with an active account voted??
If they did....there is a bigger problem than bad castle design......like only 500 accounts left paying in UO.
 

Delores D

Journeyman
I have had a keep that I used for crafting. The one on test did not make the top 40, it was 46. Rooms that are easy to get to. I changed the color on the keep, and castle, to the sandstone. Old eyes need brighter colors. My castle I made, which I have one, came in 13, Either of these can be use for crafting and or a guild house. Easy to get around in and not a bunch of small rooms with doors to go from one room and doors to another room to get to the one on the end. They both have easy access to all rooms.
 

Polaris75

Lore Master
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As everybody knows by now... this ended up being not a housing contest. The best houses could not have won this, everyone (even my friends) wanted their friends to vote for theirs. People with friends with many accounts likely won these. (Not blaming, but just saying.) These house colors and even tiles do not match together (but some people like these), I wish they would just let us customize them. Everyone has their own ideas as to what's best. This contest just made me want to customize my own. : P : P But overall, the original castle/keep designs are much simpler, easier to work with, and better, more symmetrical, and simplistic to work with than these. If everyone could customize their own, I think you would see some truly fantastic castles out there and about.
 
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Lady Michelle

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I do know where everyone is coming from but my biggest flaw is not hurting others feelings even if I like it or not thats just me. The biggest problem was not getting enough time to work on the designs. It seems everyone was in a hurry and didn't go through to find any flaws in their designs. Are we sure that there is only going to only be 3 winners. Also another problem was the devs or Mesanna taking the time to go through and remove the designs that didn't come close to a keep/castle design before voting began.
I tried my best trying to build what I thought others might like I think I might of changed the walls and floors over 10 times.
 

Polaris75

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I do know where everyone is coming from but my biggest flaw is not hurting others feelings even if I like it or not thats just me. The biggest problem was not getting enough time to work on the designs. It seems everyone was in a hurry and didn't go through to find any flaws in their designs. Are we sure that there is only going to only be 3 winners. Also another problem was the devs or Mesanna taking the time to go through and remove the designs that didn't come close to a keep/castle design before voting began.
I tried my best trying to build what I thought others might like I think I might of changed the walls and floors over 10 times.
It would be impossible to make a design that everyone likes. This is just begging for everyone to be allowed to customize their own. (I didn't try here, no time and was busy with Shadowguard and all in game.) If it were live, I would spend months customizing my own though.
 

Lady Michelle

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It would be impossible to make a design that everyone likes. This is just begging for everyone to be allowed to customize their own. (I didn't try here, no time and was busy with Shadowguard and all in game.) If it were live, I would spend months customizing my own though.
so true I would of been happy if a stone dye tub was made to dye keep/castle walls and floors.
 

ShriNayne

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You can't make something to please everyone, that's why a more basic revamp of what we had was all that was needed, just a few hours of removing walls, adding an archway, reducing the number of stairs...Certainly it would have taken less than 18 months to get it done and there would have been less unhappy people in the end I think. Let's see in 6 months how many of these new designs are actually in game. Maybe if the rules had been less vague and the judging was done blind by a panel the results might actually have been worth the effort. As it is I'm just really upset by how the whole thing went.
 

Finley Grant

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i just found out something interesting.

after i looked for how many votes i got and spoke to my closest friends (yes i also asked friends to vote for me)
we did the math.. we came to the conclusion the stone did not cast all votes.

myself i used 4 accounts. and the handful closest friends voted in total 15 accounts for me, how can i have 16 votes then?
i have the feeling that many others who had great designs somehow got screwed over (intended or not)

the whole contest actually turned into "who can line up most accounts" which has nothing to do with best designs,

the only way this could have ended in some kind of "we look for the best designs and choose 3 of them" would have been that the Devs (each one of them) uses a premade list and go over all designs to give points if the house matches the rules in the list.
from the lets say 20 with the highest score we can can choose by vote 3 keeps and 3 castles.

again, iam was not salty because i did not win, however iam pissed now that it looks that the stone didn work properly.
 

uokings7

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I'm gonna go ahead and predict the next contest will have similar results. If that turns out to be the case then I will advocate for customizable plots on live servers. But I'm going to give these contests a shot first and see if the next contest produces something more useable for me. Giant square boxes are just out of the question for me. Yes they are castle and keep size plots but they don't have to be castles or keeps. I would prefer something less in your face and more inviting. Not all castles are built to keep people out :) and don't get me wrong, I absolutely understand the desire for castles and keeps because people love that look. Just not for me! Although if there is a more functional keep design that comes out of this I'll try it out because keeps are just designed horribly.
 

Riyana

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I will preface this post with this: I didn't submit a design and I barely use my castle (since I primarily play on a different shard now than it is located) and don't have a keep, so I don't have much of a dog in this race. I started to build something, but between the crashing and the other demands on my time, it just wasn't worth it. Building a custom castle for a contest caught my interest and attention from the very first announcement (a year and a half ago...), but I wasn't able to give it my best effort and that's my problem and no one else's.

I highly doubt I will be converting my castle to either of the winning castle designs (assuming these are the final winners). They just aren't to my taste as is, and I will leave my criticisms of the designs at that.

However, I'm not disappointed in the results of this contest--because my expectations were set by everything that led up to this. This contest has been consistently unthought and ill-communicated from the very beginning, and every step has been painful and wasteful of player and dev time. No part of this contest seems to have been operated with any kind of forward planning, critical thought, or quality control. It's been so consistently poorly executed that I have actually wondered if it was being deliberately mishandled for some reason.

And so I reiterate:

I used to be against castle customization, but this contest has changed my mind.
I'd rather walk past the odd crystal Borg cube or lava/swamp/waterfall monstrosity than watch this train keep wrecking and players continuing to be disappointed over and over again.

I got genuinely excited for this contest when it was first announced, and that is really the worst part of all of this for me because ultimately it has done more to erode my faith in UO than just about anything else I can think of (and I can think of some doozies)... the sheer mundanity and obviousness of failure of vision and logical planning is deeply discouraging and bodes poorly for the game's future. This contest should have been an easy slam dunk, not a painful exercise in confusion and time-wasting. It could have been done.

Rather than recount an exhaustive breakdown of everything that went wrong, let's posit what SHOULD have happened:
  • Some kind of castle/keep customization tool should have been available BEFORE the contest was announced. That could have been what we had on Test Center. It could have been a standalone utility or even an emulator given provisional approval for this purpose. It should NOT have been guesswork, photoshop, or graph paper and happy thoughts.
  • Only AFTER the tool was ready and tested (or at least CLOSE to ready) should there have been an official announcement. This announcement needed to include, FROM THE BEGINNING:
    • A clear deadline for entry.
    • Clear and reasonable criteria and rules. For example:
      • A theme: for the first contest, for example, only actual castles/keeps of classic UO building materials would be permitted. Future contests could include Tokuno, gargoyle, or other materials, but an initial narrow focus would simplify selection and probably result in higher quality comparable structures. If possible, adjust the aforementioned tool to only include permissible materials each time the contest is run to eliminate any doubt.
      • All floors and rooms must be accessible by foot. Teleporter tiles allowed, but not as the only means to reach a given area.
      • Building must be structurally sound and complete. No missing corners or dangling floor tiles or stairways to nowhere, etc.
      • No unwalkable flooring tiles (water, swamp, lava).
      • No non-housing tool pieces should be visible in the final design. No furniture, no deco, no ladders, no crafted stone addons, etc.
      • At least 75% of the plot must contain structure. Lawn or empty plot may make up no more than 25% of the ground level of the plot.
      • Materials used together should be complimentary in the vein of classic UO art and buildings.
      • Entries should be designed with general use in mind to offer players the most versatility if the design is chosen.
      • Entries must be in good taste and conform to the TOS. I think this is the only rule they actually had. It's good, but insufficient.
    • Clear standards for what buildings would or would not be eligible for conversion upon contest completion. Some people waited a year and a half in anticipation only to find out at the last minute that the rock in their courtyard would keep them from being able to convert anyway.
  • Entries should be as anonymous as possible, but possible for anyone to view in full.
  • A panel of judges would choose three castles and three keeps.
    • Devs would be best, and (hopefully) the most impartial.
    • Alternatively, I would suggest EMs, imperfect though that may be. They should, ideally, not know whose entry was whose. They should definitely not be judges if they or anyone in their family or closest circle of fellow players made the cut.
    • Alternatively, if player voting is considered a must (which I could understand from the perspective of players wanting to participate in the selection):
      • All invalid and low-quality entries should be eliminated, leaving only high-quality valid ones for perusal. Around 10 or so would be pretty good, unless there was just an incredible output of amazing work.
      • There should be one stone for castles and one for keeps, and each account gets one vote on each one. With a strong purge of invalid entries, what is left should be high enough quality that even if voting shenanigans occur, which they will (please see the endless drama from governor system for more details), at least we'd end up with something decent.
      • The best way to vote for this, actually, would probably be for the voting to take place within the house sign of an actual prodo castle or keep. If you have a castle, you can vote, one time, for a castle design. If you have twenty castles, you can vote twenty times for a castle design. This would ensure that the people most invested in an alternative design would be the ones choosing rather than people voting for their friends or whoever paid them the most, or a pack of trolls picking the worst thing they could (which could easily happen, and I'm surprised didn't). I don't know how feasible that is programming-wise but it would surely cut down the vast majority of the voting problems.
I'm sure that could be elaborated upon for further clarity or adjusted for practical behind-the-scenes considerations I am unfamiliar with, but you get the idea. Preparation before launch and clarity throughout. Yes, there would still be complaints. There will always be complaints. But with enough clarity up front there is less room for them, and probably less validity unless something truly messed up is happening.

This could have been done so much better. But I'm not disappointed, because that implies I expected better than was delivered. At this point and on this topic, I didn't.

So I say yes, customization for all, because this contest as executed has been a huge expenditure of both player and dev time for a highly debatable result and a lot of disappointment and anger. To be done well, something like this requires a lot of thought and effort and coordination and dev time, and frankly I think that time is better spent elsewhere given the small minority of players affected by alternate castle/keep design possibilities.
 

Victim of Siege

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I am finding myself wondering if everyone with an active account voted??
If they did....there is a bigger problem than bad castle design......like only 500 accounts left paying in UO.
I did not vote because none of the designs really suited my tastes, they were nice designs but just not for me. i would suppose there were a few like me.
 

Riyana

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@Riyana
You should also post this in the official forum now - I even saw that Kyronix makes a thread there for feedbacks to Pub 101
I don't post there, but if anyone wants to copy my post over consider my permission granted.
 
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